160 Democrats Voted Against Torture

[sandnsea]

I'm always amazed that the vast majority who vote in our behalf are always ignored for the small minority who vote with Republicans.

Which party is the problem here? The one with 160 members who voted againt torture and the suspension of habeas - or the party with 219 members who voted to turn our country into a dictatorship.

This kind of bill wouldn't even come to the floor with Democrats in charge and that's what we're fighting for.

[rockymountaindem]

1. That's what I keep telling myself

But it's getting harder and harder.

[sandnsea]

7. Same Blue Dog bunch

Including Salazar. Time and again, this is a regional problem caused by either more conservative views or lack of information. We aren't going to turn that around with ranting and raving againt the good Dems who fight for us every day. Changing local minds is a grassroots problem in every regard.

[rockymountaindem]

11. I know about Salazar

His district includes a lot of conservative areas, and his predecessor, Scott McInnis (R) was... um, not so great. But seriously, torture? That's pretty bad.

[MoonRiver]

2. Thanks for the wake-up call!

I'm amazed at the acrimony against Dems also. Certainly I'm bitterly disappointed at those who voted for torture. That does not change the big picture of taking back our Congress and saving the American dream from fascism.

[pnwmom]

3. Thanks sandnsea. You're right. This wouldn't have come up for a vote

under the Democrats. That's what we all must keep working for.

[gully]

4. That's 85%, wouldn't that be about a B + in terms of grade?

? *wink*

[B Calm]

60. 98.9 % of republicans get an F

[no_hypocrisy]

I keep coming to the conclusion the dems who voted for torture and

suspension of habeas corpus have made a trade-off of their integrity and patriotism with their need to be re-elected. Maybe I'm a sentimental old-style American, but I'd much rather vote to maintain my country and its history of humanitarianism and lose my seat as a consequence. That's a Profile in Courage.

[Straight Shooter]

17. You're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

We take at least one chamber of Congress, hopefully two, or it's all lost, forever. Grit your teeth and vote Dem, but write a letter to your rep saying you had to hold your nose to do it. Then stay on their case, all the way.

You won't have a country left if the Repubs keep control of Congress. You think it's bad now? I'm past the point of saying how much worse can it get. We're in the gutter, we're drowning, we've got to get out.

Please reconsider, and think of Conyers as head of the Judiciary Committee, conducting investigations. It's the only way Americans' eyes will be opened.

[sandnsea]

19. Rothman voted no

That's your Rep, right? He joined 159 other Democrats in voting against this, as did the 4 Democrats in my state. Are you going to help your own Democrat keep his seat? Or are you going to run around in an anti-Democratic rant that will only make it harder for Rothman - not to mention Menendez who we need to take over the Senate. Why would you want to make it harder for your own Democrats who are fighting hard for you?

[Hav]

5. .

No shit. And how many Repubs voted against it? 7? There you have your fucking difference! Nevertheless, some Dem votes were really surprising.

[kentuck]

6. But always just a few short...

no matter what the issue. Bankruptcy. Welfare reform. Telecommunications Act. Patriot Bill. Torture. Whatever. Always just a few short.

[bdamomma]

8. CALL YOUR SENATORS NOW PLEASE

866-808 0065

SUSAN COLLINS 202 224-2523

OLYMPIA SNOW 800-432 1599

PLEASE CALL TELL THEM YOU SUPPORT SPECTER AMENDMENT TO PROTECT OUR HABEAS CORPUS

[MoonRiver]

10. Surely these moderate Repubs will support their colleague Spectre (R)!

Surely...

[Lone_Star_Dem]

9. I'm proud of each and every one for taking a stand for what's right

I haven't forgotten them. :patriot:

[mmonk]

12. The fact is we aren't in charge and it did come up for a vote

and I will complain about those that abandoned our party and country on this one. I would EXPECT democrats to vote against it and you shouldn't take that to mean it isn't appreciated. That's the reason I vote for democrats.

[sandnsea]

13. 85% did, so why not focus on that

Why smear the majority when the problem is not a party problem, but a difference in regional views problem. It always goes back to changing the minds of the people.

[mmonk]

14. It isn't an issue.

[Mend]

15. Isn't the leader of our Democratic party supposed to demand

solidarity....that's what the pukes do. Then the individual members can explain to their more conservative constituents that they had to stand with party loyalty. The pukes have done this for years. We need a better leader, this is ridiculous.

[sandnsea]

16. 7 Republicans voted no too

I guarantee if it were only 7 Democrats voting for the torture bill, we'd hear the same whine against the party of traitors.

[gully]

52. Absolutely. Seems more than ONE is enough to start the "whining?"

But, I do agree that the vote is abhorrent.

[Skidmore]

18. Sadlly, it is the small number who vote with the Rs who could sometimes

make a difference in passage of a bill or preventing the passage. We've seen this happen several times. It doesn't matter that Dems are not "in charge" now, we've had votes that could have passed had only 2 more or 3 more Dems either voted with their peers or just had shown up for a vote. SOme of this legislation might not have made it through already.

[sandnsea]

20. Those are partisan ploys

There isn't one bill that passed with a 2-3 vote margin that didn't have the usual right wing "centrists" who would have just went the other direction if need be. There's a handful of Republicans who are used to create that illusion, but who vote for the right any time they're needed. I know because my senator, Gordon Smith, is one of them.

[magpie]

21. The majority did what we elected them to do.

They are not being ignored. They have nice jobs and all the perks for doing what we elected them to do. That little minority problem that steals the attention? Like a building with a 'little' rat problem. Needs to dealt with,eventually.

[sandnsea]

22. It's NOT a party problem

It's a regional problem. People who continue to focus on the party instead of the actual human beings who live in this country continue to miss the problem. Nobody was mobilizing to educate constituents in targeted House districts so that their Reps could vote against this bill. When people in a particular House district get their news from local right wing tv and right wing newpapers, and there's nothing to counter it, it's quite understandable that a Rep votes the way THEIR CONSTITUENTS want them to. A House Rep isn't supposed to vote the way YOU want them to, they're supposed to vote the way THEIR CONSTITUENTS want them to. We are not reaching these people yet, that's the problem.

[paulk]

47. great point!

and a k & R

[debbierlus]

23. They should filibuster

The dems laid down

That was the only way to stop it

What a load of bunk

[sandnsea]

24. House can't filibuster

Senate hasn't had a final vote yet.

[savemefromdumbya]

42. but they can tie themselves to the railings

[MadHound]

25. And they could have done so much more than cast their vote

Filibuster, deny a quorum, take to the bully pulpit. But hey, at least they voted against it:eyes:

Sorry, but this is one issue on which all the stops should have been pulled. Call in every last favor, no holds barred. Goddamnit, this is fucking TORTURE we're talking about, here in the US, with suspension of habeas corpus thrown in for good measure.

[sandnsea]

27. Again, House can't filibuster

And it isn't JUST the responsibility of Congress to stand up for our country. Where were the ministers? Where were the civil rights groups on TV? Where, again, was the media? Where were the PEOPLE? Oh yeah, I remember, talking about Bill Clinton's tirade.

And where is Hillary today? Hmmm.

[MadHound]

32. I realize that the House can't filibuster

However the Senate can, though it doesn't look like they're going to. But the House could have indeed denied a quorum. Or taken to the bully pulpit in order to whip up the PEOPLE. To get some of that media exposure that is so desperately needed, which corporate America denies us.

Look, we elected these people to take the lead, it's about damn time they started doing their job rather than worrying about the next election. As far as Hillary goes, I'm willing to bet that she's going to cast an Aye vote on this one. After all, she's got an election to worry about, and god forbid she looks "soft on terra":eyes:

[davekriss]

26. Proves the urgent need to win in November

I constantly have to tell the lightly informed that the Democrats do fight, have made noise, as we watch the U.S. go down the fascist drain, but if one gets all their information from the MSM, then one will not be aware of some of the strident opposition that has been given voice.

We (Democrats) may have some difficulty standing together in monolithic obedience to a holy leader's command, but that's what makes us Democrats in the first place. Love of independence, respect for difference. In this case, though, I think a filibuster is called for and must happen (CALL YOUR SENATORS TODAY!).

[Robbien]

28. Wrong

You want us to praise Democrats for voting Democratic?

They did the minimum. They voted against torture and then are sitting back and keeping their mouths shut about how awful it is that some Democrats choose to support the GOP instead. The Democrats who supported the GOP have no reason to believe they did anything wrong and are free to keep voting with the GOP in the future. There is no downside.

[TahitiNut]

29. A greater percentage voted for TORTURE than voted for Nader!

I find it hypocritical in the extreme to lay the entire fault of the rise of fascism in this nation on those "evil-doers" who voted for Nader in 2000 and then trivialize the grater percentage of nominal 'Democrats' who voted in favor or torture, suspension of habeas corpus, denial of judicial review, and the plenipotentiary power of a pResident to REINTERPRET the Geneva Conventions as he sees fit, without oversight, after decades of experience.

[sandnsea]

33. Greater percentage??

That's the point, it WASN'T the greater percentage. The greater percentage voted against the bill, 85% in fact. I would bet very close to that will vote against it in the Senate. So I don't agree see where you get your "greater percentage" claim.

And I've said nothing abut Nader in this, I generally don't go down that road because it's old news. I know some have, I just usually don't. I decided Nader was an idiot in 2000 when I made an informed decision not to vote for him based on his platform - not anything to do with party allegiance or Florida etc. I just think Greens live in fantasyland.

[TahitiNut]

34. Read much?

:eyes:

[sandnsea]

35. Honestly

Did I misunderstand you? No snark. What did I miss?

[TahitiNut]

37. OK ...

(A) What was the percentage of (nominal) Democrats in the House who voted in favor of HR 6166? (16%??)

(B) What was the percentage of (nominal) 'liberals' in the electorate who voted for Nader? (4%??)

Which percentage is greater? (I'd say it's "A" ... more than fourfold. Use your own percentages.)


The 'principle' at play here seems to be one of loyalty - "owing" a vote to the "right side."

How can one trivialize a fourfold greater degree of "traitorous behavior" than one upon which is heaped all of the evils of the last six years?

The sense of proportionality seems "convenient" to say the least.

[sandnsea]

39. Outcome

One set of votes swayed the outcome, the other never had an ability to sway the outcome. In any event, this has nothing to do with Nader anyway.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

30. They deserve praise, just as the 34 deserve condemnation.

[William Bloode]

31. And 34 voted for it.

Those 34 are traitors and should be jailed, Dem or not. Thats right thrown in the klink with their repuke buddies.

[indepat]

36. The fact that only about 20% the # of Repugs voted against as

Dems who voted for says an awful lot about 97% of Repugs and 16% of Dems: constitutional enemies of we the people, this Republic IMNSHO and I would bet only 97-98% of these enemies of this Republic, we the people will be returned to office in the House by we the people.

[Generator]

38. You're amazing

You'd give anyone a pass as long as they have that D behind their name. No, the problem is ALSO every Dem that voted with the Republicans and will no doubt continue to do so even if we get that precious majority that I hope we do get after November.
>>>>>>>>>>>And they will still be DEMOCRATS and will STILL vote Republican. That's a problem, wouldn't you say? The majority might mean shit if we have no unity. And that's a major problem with the Democrats.

To have your OWN betray you is a sadness that is worse than having the other side betray you. That you don't feel that way- I don't understand. It's okay with you for Democrats to act like Republicans!

[sandnsea]

41. Mine didn't betray me

Maybe we've got a more active and vocal group of Democats where I live. Maybe THAT is the lesson for those who live in states and districts where their Democrats are betraying them. Maybe it's a problem with PEOPLE and not Party.

[redqueen]

55. I didn't see any passes...

All I saw was a reiteration that it's a small minority that's voting with the other side.

After Nader's and everyone else's attempts to make it seem as if there's no difference, there it is. A big difference.

Attitudes like that turn people away from politics. The only way to make things better is to get more people involved.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. My Dem rep voted for torture

Yes, he heard from me this morning.

[sandnsea]

44. Did your local and state party?

That's where we need to kick some ass. How did local people let their Rep or Senator get away with this. How can we, as a country of Democrats, HELP (not attack) your local parties mobilize so this stops happening.

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. I live in a very red district

and my local Dem party is just so damned glad we have a Dem congressman they refuse to see how bad he is. He will most likely win his election next month and they are just besides themselves with glee. It will be his 4th term as a Dem in a repuke district.

But he votes like a repuke. So what good does it do to have a Dem in the seat when he is just a DINO? My local party just doesn't get it. I sure wish another strong Dem would come forward to run for this seat. This guy is just awful.

LOL I called this morning to let him know how disappointed I am but no one answered and I left a message. Then I emailed and STILL have not heard back from his office. Now if they thought I was calling to volunteer to work on his campaign, you know they would have called me back ASAP. Damn damn damn.

[sandnsea]

50. See, we should target your whole district

We should come up with a strategy to hit your district on whatever issues that you think might get people to think twice over. You can't do it alone, but get a few DUers behind you and maybe we can start changing some minds. I don't see how your Rep is ever going to change unless those excited Dems recognize what needs changing first. We have to start going into the reddest of the red, changing one mind at a time. I don't see any other way to get this country off this horrible right wing track.

[proud2BlibKansan]

62. We need someone like Lamont

to get the Dems excited here.

[savemefromdumbya]

43. put on a torture display on the Capital building's steps just to show

just to show the public the horrors of torture?

[sandnsea]

45. Or your county courthouse?

People have been protesting against torture since Abu Ghraib. Haven't you seen the regular presence of the guy with the hood and electrodes? It's lost its impact.

[savemefromdumbya]

46. so are we saying that the public think it's OK?

[sandnsea]

48. Oh yeah, lots do

They believe that Abu Ghraib was "bad apples" and that we're writing the law so people will know that they can only do this "alternate interrogation". I think there have already been polls that show most people would support just about any kind of torture if it would stop an attack. They think America is good and we really are just talking about a sort of basic training - stand in the rain - discomfort, not "torture".

[savemefromdumbya]

51. like everything else Bush only gives the public half the story

[ToeBot]

53. Since when do they give awards for not being a traitor? out

[greyl]

54. Thank you.

It's sad that it wasn't all of them, but it's also sad to be a fair weather Democrat.

[Raffi Ella]

59. AMEN

:kick:

[Exiled in America]

56. Um... whoopdee fricken DOO?

Which party is the problem? BOTH ARE.

You don't get a cookie for voting against torture. It's like voting against rape. The story wouldn't be the 160 dems who voted against rape, it would be the many democratic senators who voted FOR rape that would be flabbergasting. And sorry, but its not wrong to see this as an indication of how weak and disfocused the party has become, when you can't even get together and AGREE with unity to oppose TORTURE - SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY FUCKING WRONG.

It is OK that we are upset that some people of our party can't even take a moral stand against torture. There's NOTHING wrong with being upset about that.

Does that mean we should all leave the party? No, maybe not. But don't think for a second I'm going to apologize for expressing my PURE OUTRAGE and Democrats who voted for this. They disgust me.

[krispifried]

57. when you can't even get together and AGREE with unity

...to oppose TORTURE - SOMETHING IS SERIOUSLY FUCKING WRONG.


American Fascism is what it wrong. Corpwhorate politicians is what is wrong. Mass Action, not voting, is all that will even *begin* to solve this problem. And Dems won't be leading it.

[Raffi Ella]

58. Thank you!

:kick:

[greyl]

61. Ramen! nt