Senate Hearings on Torture Bill (Kennedy & Rockefeller Amends) -- THREAD 5

[CornField]

Thread 1 Senate hearings on Military hearings of detaines Official thread -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2242459&mesg_id=2242459

Senate hearings on S3930 (Specter-Leahy Amend) -- THREAD 2 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2243468&mesg_id=2243468

Senate hearings on S3930 (Specter Amend -- FAILED) -- THREAD 3 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2243963&mesg_id=2243963

Senate Hearings on Torture Bill (debating Rockefeller Amend) -- THREAD 4 -- http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2244475&mesg_id=2244475

[CornField]

1. Although this might be useless if they break for lunch....

[MrCoffee]

5. Are they going through with the quorum call?

[MrCoffee]

2. I'm reposting the text of Kennedy's Amendment here

SA 5084. Mr. KENNEDY submitted an amendment intended to be proposed to amendment SA 5036 proposed by Mr. FRIST to the bill H.R. 6061, to establish operational control over the international land and maritime borders of the United States; which was ordered to lie on the table; as follows:


On page 83, between lines 8 and 9, insert the following:

(2) PROTECTION OF UNITED STATES PERSONS.--The Secretary of State shall notify other parties to the Geneva Conventions that--

(A) the United States has historically interpreted the law of war and the Geneva Conventions, including in particular common Article 3, to prohibit a wide variety of cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment of members of the United States Armed Forces and United States persons;

(B) during and following previous armed conflicts, the United States Government has prosecuted persons for engaging in cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, including the use of waterboarding techniques, stress positions, including prolonged standing, the use of extreme temperatures, beatings, sleep deprivation, and other similar acts;

(C) this Act and the amendments made by this Act preserve the capacity of the United States to prosecute nationals of enemy powers for engaging in acts against members of the United States Armed Forces and United States persons that have been prosecuted by the United States as war crimes in the past; and

(D) should any United States person be subjected to the following acts, without limitation, under circumstances in which the Geneva Conventions are applicable, the United States would consider such acts to constitute punishable offenses under common Article 3 and would act accordingly: forcing the person to be naked, perform sexual acts, or pose in a sexual manner; applying beatings, electric shocks, burns, or other forms of physical pain to the person; waterboarding the person; using dogs on the person; inducing hypothermia or heat injury in the person; conducting a mock execution of the person; and depriving the person of necessary food, water, or medical care.

Link to all the amendments
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/C?r109:./temp/~r109HchwTZ

[LSK]

4. good idea

[democrank]

Thanks, Mr. C....

Let`s see where the Rethugs stand on this one. A brilliant move by Senator Kennedy.

[LSK]

3. quorum call

[Cameron27]

6. Kennedy up again!

[CornField]

7. He took 4 more minutes

His amendment is really excellent -- it takes exactly what is being done and force feeds back down their throats.

[MrCoffee]

8. Outlining why his amendment is necessary...

the bill is vague as to what is prohibited. Kennedy's amendment clarifies what is prohibited.

[bdamomma]

9. oh please do not give this jerk of a president more power please

[MrCoffee]

11. Kennedy's amendment is AWESOME...and the pukes are gonna have a hell

of a time explaining why they voted against the troops!

[Cameron27]

13. Damn straight about that

Nothing that they say will surprise me though.

[LSK]

10. Specter amendment vote results are in

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00255

[MrCoffee]

14. Snowe didn't vote...

i'm not even gonna type the name i'm thinking that fits her today.

[bdamomma]

16. again this vote was on party lines

1 dem Nelson from Neb. voting with repigs

and my senators chafee and reed both voted yes.

[CornField]

17. Senate votes grouped by states (copy/paste from link)

Grouped by Home State
Alabama: Sessions (R-AL), Nay Shelby (R-AL), Nay

Alaska: Murkowski (R-AK), Nay Stevens (R-AK), Nay

Arizona: Kyl (R-AZ), Nay McCain (R-AZ), Nay

Arkansas: Lincoln (D-AR), Yea Pryor (D-AR), Yea

California: Boxer (D-CA), Yea Feinstein (D-CA), Yea

Colorado: Allard (R-CO), Nay Salazar (D-CO), Yea

Connecticut: Dodd (D-CT), Yea Lieberman (D-CT), Yea

Delaware: Biden (D-DE), Yea Carper (D-DE), Yea

Florida: Martinez (R-FL), Nay Nelson (D-FL), Yea

Georgia: Chambliss (R-GA), Nay Isakson (R-GA), Nay

Hawaii: Akaka (D-HI), Yea Inouye (D-HI), Yea

Idaho: Craig (R-ID), Nay Crapo (R-ID), Nay

Illinois: Durbin (D-IL), Yea Obama (D-IL), Yea

Indiana: Bayh (D-IN), Yea Lugar (R-IN), Nay

Iowa: Grassley (R-IA), Nay Harkin (D-IA), Yea

Kansas: Brownback (R-KS), Nay Roberts (R-KS), Nay

Kentucky: Bunning (R-KY), Nay McConnell (R-KY), Nay

Louisiana: Landrieu (D-LA), Yea Vitter (R-LA), Nay

Maine: Collins (R-ME), Nay Snowe (R-ME), Not Voting

Maryland: Mikulski (D-MD), Yea Sarbanes (D-MD), Yea

Massachusetts: Kennedy (D-MA), Yea Kerry (D-MA), Yea

Michigan: Levin (D-MI), Yea Stabenow (D-MI), Yea

Minnesota: Coleman (R-MN), Nay Dayton (D-MN), Yea

Mississippi: Cochran (R-MS), Nay Lott (R-MS), Nay

Missouri: Bond (R-MO), Nay Talent (R-MO), Nay

Montana: Baucus (D-MT), Yea Burns (R-MT), Nay

Nebraska: Hagel (R-NE), Nay Nelson (D-NE), Nay

Nevada: Ensign (R-NV), Nay Reid (D-NV), Yea

New Hampshire: Gregg (R-NH), Nay Sununu (R-NH), Yea

New Jersey: Lautenberg (D-NJ), Yea Menendez (D-NJ), Yea

New Mexico: Bingaman (D-NM), Yea Domenici (R-NM), Nay

New York: Clinton (D-NY), Yea Schumer (D-NY), Yea

North Carolina: Burr (R-NC), Nay Dole (R-NC), Nay

North Dakota: Conrad (D-ND), Yea Dorgan (D-ND), Yea

Ohio: DeWine (R-OH), Nay Voinovich (R-OH), Nay

Oklahoma: Coburn (R-OK), Nay Inhofe (R-OK), Nay

Oregon: Smith (R-OR), Yea Wyden (D-OR), Yea

Pennsylvania: Santorum (R-PA), Nay Specter (R-PA), Yea

Rhode Island: Chafee (R-RI), Yea Reed (D-RI), Yea

South Carolina: DeMint (R-SC), Nay Graham (R-SC), Nay

South Dakota: Johnson (D-SD), Yea Thune (R-SD), Nay

Tennessee: Alexander (R-TN), Nay Frist (R-TN), Nay

Texas: Cornyn (R-TX), Nay Hutchison (R-TX), Nay

Utah: Bennett (R-UT), Nay Hatch (R-UT), Nay

Vermont: Jeffords (I-VT), Yea Leahy (D-VT), Yea

Virginia: Allen (R-VA), Nay Warner (R-VA), Nay

Washington: Cantwell (D-WA), Yea Murray (D-WA), Yea

West Virginia: Byrd (D-WV), Yea Rockefeller (D-WV), Yea

Wisconsin: Feingold (D-WI), Yea Kohl (D-WI), Yea

Wyoming: Enzi (R-WY), Nay Thomas (R-WY), Nay

[Marie26]

23. They voted against habeas corpus?

They need to turn in their "democratic representative" credentials right now, then. And why are McCain, Graham, and Warner voting against this amendment? Weren't they worried about removing the writ of habeas corpus, or was that all for show?

[JerseygirlCT]

28. Knock me over with a feather: Sununu votes yea? nt

[CornField]

12. The Virginia Senator must really need to go tinkle -- another quorum call

[MrCoffee]

15. he's hungry.

[acmejack]

18. I thought I saw them bring a chair up for Byrd.

OK, let's see what the man has to pull out of his bag of tricks.

And I do see that gas bag Cornyn.

[Cameron27]

19. Byrd is introducing another amendment

[BelgianMadCow]

24. Levin / Specter / Kennedy / Byrd - that means this is the last one

Warner said discussion on 4 amandments yesterday.

[MrCoffee]

30. Kennedy/Rockefeller/Byrd are on the floor

[CornField]

32. self-delete

[MrCoffee]

34. I fixed mine...my bad.

[Lasher]

20. Bobby Byrd introducing his amendment.

This should be good. This is a sunset clause 5 years down the road. Looks like an attempt at damage control.

[CornField]

21. Sen. Byrd -- setting aside Kennedy Amendment so he present his

This is the sunset amendment

[MrCoffee]

22. Byrd is putting a 5 year sunset amendment on the floor.

[CornField]

25. I love to listen to Byrd speak -- colorful, good use of discriptives

"Feverish Politics"

"Legislation pushed as a means of showboating -- we all know what that is"

[MrCoffee]

26. I really like Robert Byrd's style on the Senate floor.

[CornField]

31. LOL -- I just posted the same. He deserves the "distinguished" title

[CornField]

36. Byrd: "Thank God for the Supreme Court"

[never cry wolf]

27. Kennedy's amendment is really brilliant!

Defining torture as it applies to potential US victims. If passed it will undercut what the main bill says and provide a precedence to torture definitions. If the pukes vote against it, they are voting against foreign entities torturing our troops.

[helderheid]

29. briiiiiiiiiliant!

[BelgianMadCow]

33. and it mirrors the known Abu Ghraib abuses

good thinking indeed. Use of dogs was a giveaway as is sexual degradation.

[Coexist]

35. nice.

:thumbsup:

[BelgianMadCow]

38. BAD, BAD bills

:-) with a pointing finger too. Go Byrd!!

[MrCoffee]

37. Byrd: "Thank God for separation of powers. Thank God for SCOTUS"

[CornField]

39. "We are again confronted with slap-happy legislation which is changing by

the minute" LOL!

[MrCoffee]

40. "We are confronted by slap-happy legislation" - Byrd

[BelgianMadCow]

42. IN such a frenzied, frenetic state, who knows the true nature of the beast

[Dinger]

41. Reading "My Senator And Me" To My Students This Afternoon

During their milk break, the littole darlins'.:) :evilgrin:

[MrCoffee]

43. Byrd is doing an absolutely dynamite job.

[CornField]

44. "Prescribe for ourselves an antidote for any self-inflicted wounds"

[MrCoffee]

45. Byrd: "if ever a piece of legislation cried out to be reviewed with the

benefit of hindsight, it is the current bill"

[Lasher]

52. Enjoy it while you can.

He is a window to the most eloquent and honorable of the Greatest Generation. Neither he, nor the rest of them who still survive, will be around forever.

I hope he'll be able to redeem himself with those of us here who got upset when he voted to confirm Alito.

[CornField]

46. HA!!! Warner: "This legislature has a high degree of vigilance in

overseeing the executive branch."

It must be lunch time because they've brought out the afternoon entertainment!

[MrCoffee]

47. Did he take a fistful of downers before he got up to speak?

[BelgianMadCow]

49. Counter that with the generals saying Rummy doesn NOT listen at all

and purges dissent, while ther is no congressional oversight.

You have to seriously deluded or very hypocritical to be able to say what he said.

[BelgianMadCow]

54. A sunset clause inhibits the president to exercise the powers granted him

in this bill. That is a very silly argument. I honestly don't see what argument can be made against a sunset clause.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

53. Scary that we have people like this in charge - completely off his rocker.

I'm drawing up a petition right now to have this guy committed.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

48. "I find that we've all been very good about overlooking the exec branch.

This from John Warner. I'd like to know what he's been smoking because I need ME some of it. Then I can live in my own little happy happy wrold pretending that everything is all A-OK.

[Cameron27]

50. John Warner is whoring himself for an idiot president

but he's doing it ever so politely. These people have no shame.

[CornField]

59. He can't go bezerk on Byrd -- Byrd is too distinguished & respected

It's called tact and it is interesting because we've seen so little of it from the Republican members of Congress lately. Frankly, I don't agree with what Warner is saying, but he has garnered more respect from me because of his use of quiet tact.

[Cameron27]

60. He gets zero respect from me.

[CornField]

65. Politics is a game

Yes, a game with very high stakes, but it is still a game. I have no problem acknowledging good players on either side while I continue to root for my home team.

For what Warner has done -- respectfully disagreed with another member of Congress -- he does deserve acknowledgement. Now we'll see Byrd return to the floor to respectfully disagree with Warner and he deserves acknowledgement for that as well.

[Cameron27]

69. I know what you mean and you're right...

I'm just angry today. :thumbsup:

[MrCoffee]

51. Warner (VA) - "This bill will mete out a measure of justice as we..

understand it"

I think he means vengence, not justice.

[BelgianMadCow]

57. "mete" - he means meat, as in slightly pulped fingers.

[ralps]

55. One of the callers on Thom Hartmann's show said that there will Not be

a cloture vote on this bill!!! :grr:

[MrCoffee]

56. i think that's a good thing...cloture is how you stop a filibuster.

[Lasher]

66. But are you sure it's being set up to work that way?

Failure to pass a cloture vote is generally equivalent to a filibuster, isn't it? Maybe an absence of the cloture vote will result in an automatic limit to debate. I can't believe Catkiller and his Senate majority cohorts would have otherwise arranged this.

[Marie26]

58. Good. nt

[LSK]

61. hes doesnt know what hes talking about

A cloture vote is mandatory and procedure.

Unless the GOP pulls it, but it doesnt look like that will happen.

[MrCoffee]

63. I bow to your superior Senate Procedure geekiness.

[BelgianMadCow]

64. that's two

:-)

[LSK]

67. would you believe Ive been watching the Senate for only 2 years?

Yes I am a total nerd because I love these CSPAN threads.

[BelgianMadCow]

68. You're in good company! Randi is an addict as well...

and yes, I believe that... two years is a loong time. You're probably the resident expert.
Yay for C-span threads!

[Coexist]

70. I always scroll through them when I have to be away from important debates

they are what makes DU the best.

[ND Pendie]

90. Mandatory Cloture?

I believe you're mistaken.

Cloture is a vote to limit debate, designed to stymie a filibuster.

It is not at all mandatory, and though it has been used on several occasions, it it not used universally.

[BelgianMadCow]

62. Byrd : I respect you Warner, but I am ABHORRED

[Lasher]

71. I believe there is genuine respect between these 2 Senators

I miss that sentiment for a mostly bygone time.

[MrCoffee]

72. I'm getting a big Senate chubby right now...

Warner and Byrd going toe-to-toe on the Senate floor.

This is fucking governing, people!

[buddhamama]

73. Byrd is exciting to watch

i get chills from the man.

[Marie26]

79. This is great theater. nt

[BelgianMadCow]

82. yes he is acting great - the succesion of words is perfect.

[Coexist]

74. 'I'm almost speechless"

maybe they'll get all ugly like in the House of Commons.

[BelgianMadCow]

80. Warner is not making any sense whatsoever - "this bill is intended as

a message"?? "And we don't want to send the message it can expire."

Why, would that not conform to the basic principles of the eternal totalitarian state?

[LSK]

75. Byrd is almost speechless

[Cameron27]

76. Byrd..I'm speechless

He looks stunned.

[Solly Mack]

77. Warner is lying. Plain and simple.

America is a war crime nation already...and this bill just codifies those war crimes.

America is not living up to those treaties of 1949.

[Marie26]

85. Making no sense at all

Trying to say the sunset provision will make the world think we don't live up to our treatises? For sunseting a bill that violates the Geneva Convention? :crazy: I'm speechless too. It's surreal.

[spuddonna]

78. GET HIM BYRD!

Warner trying to say that if his bill is passed it'll mess with our International Treaties...

I don't get cable TV past the local channels. Is this being broadcast on CNN or anywhere else? Just interested...

[CornField]

81. You can stream it over the net -- cspan.org

[spuddonna]

87. Thanks!

I am watching it on the internet, but I was just interested if any other news outlets (CNN?ha!) were broadcasting this. It's such an important piece of legislation, I can't believe that it is being ignored!

[MrCoffee]

83. C-SPAN feed link

http://www.c-span.org/watch/cs_cspan2_wm.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2

[LSK]

86. CSPAN2

http://www.c-span.org/watch/index.asp?Cat=TV&Code=CS2&ShowVidDays=30&ShowVidDesc=&ArchiveDays=30

[CornField]

84. Byrd is now 'flabberghasted' -- yielding 3 minutes to Levin

[BelgianMadCow]

89. Levin : he (Byrd), in his presence in this body, is THE safeguard

on the constitution. Asks to be added as cosponsor.

[BelgianMadCow]

96. Obama up, makes excellent point

namely this bill is related to the war on terror, but there will be no emperor to concede defeat in this war. So who knows when it ends ? Therefore, a need for sunset just like in this Patriot Act.

[BelgianMadCow]

In the 5 years passed, not ONE terrorist tried. And SC said unconstitutio

nal

[CornField]

91. Levin: "We are the body that must protect the Constitution" he co-sponsors

[Cameron27]

88. Levin is standing up to back Sen. Byrd

"We are the body that must protect the Constitution.

[MrCoffee]

92. Obama up for 5 minutes

[MrCoffee]

95. Obama - "Congress has abrogated it's oversight responsibility"

[CornField]

93. Sen. Barack Obama -- amendment co-sponsor -- up now

[LSK]

94. Barack Obama!

I saw him speak in October 04.

[CornField]

97. Tee-Hee -- he's reminding them that Bush's days are numbered

[LSK]

98. he is calling them out on this being fuel for attack ads

:bounce: :toast:

[MrCoffee]

101. HRC did the same thing earlier.

[CornField]

99. "What we are doing here today should be bigger than politics." Obama

[Lasher]

102. The more I see of Obama the more I like him.

I'm starting to wonder if he would be a good Democratic presidential nominee in '08. We would lose the bigot vote but most of them are already voting Republican.

[MrCoffee]

103. He was absolutely stunning last night after the debate on the Specter

amendment.

[MrCoffee]

100. Obama "I am dissapointed, because a debate over fundamental

human rights should be above politics"

[blogslut]

104. How can they turn down a sunset?

The GOP is insane

[BelgianMadCow]

107. They plan to stay in power forever? Otherwise, it makes no sense indeed

[Voltaire]

113. You are correct

They NEVER intend to leave. And everything we do in response to this madness should be done with that salient point in mind, they NEVER intend to leave. We are all the way through the looking glass with these people.

[acmejack]

111. delete-posted in the wrong place oops

[acmejack]

112. Yes ma'am, they are!

Neat new picture there. If it is not that new, you'll have to excuse me, I've going insane(r) at the events of the last few days. I have undoubtedly pissed off some of my contemporaries here to the extent that there will soon be a knock on my door and it will be a "punch in the nose-a-gram"! Ouch!

[Cameron27]

105. WTF..

Warner only allows him 1 minute instead of 2 because of time constraints!!!

[MrCoffee]

109. Well, it is his time.

[CornField]

106. ~*~*~*~ THREAD 6 ~*~*~*~

Link:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2245899&mesg_id=2245899

[LSK]

108. thanks for the new threads Cornfield

I did that once for a debate in December.

[Solly Mack]

110. Protecting America means protecting her laws

it means not doing the horrible - especially in the worst of time...of eroding those laws.

by changing our laws government is saying to us...America only works in the best of time but when faced with a crisis, America resorts to the thinking of tyrants and that screams America doesn't really work



The nature of our laws are to protect the innocent by giving the suspected guilty full and complete due process....even when that means the guilty walk free...because we believe it is better for a guilty person to walk than it is for a single innocent person to ever hang for something they didn't do