Do we on DU actually believe this government will turn 100% totalitarian?

[StellaBlue]

I ask because we keep yelling about the creeping fascism of this administration, and the fact that this bill, when passed, will make us all "enemy combatants" - but do we really believe, ultimately, that Bushco will round us up and haul us off to a death camp?

If we did, would we be posting on here right now?

I ask because I genuinely wonder. I for one, having thought about it, think that I really don't believe they will go after thousands of individual American citizens. Partly because that seems so incomprehensible and insane, and partly because it is almost logistically impossible (especially with the international news media and internet communications we have today, which, for instance, Jews in Poland did not have in 1938), partly because, with this nation populated by so many sheeple it would really be unnecessary, but mainly because I just can't really wrap my mind around it. I can't actually forsee myself, all of us, interned. Tortured. Killed.

But why not? It's sort of the same argument I return with when people say, "Oh, no, no... they didn't have anything to do with 9/11... I mean, I hate the Bush administration, and I hate Dubya, but I don't think they would purposely murder 3,000 Americans..."

Why not? They've murdered that many American soldiers. And possibly 100,000 or more Iraqi civilians.

?

[Hubert Flottz]

1. It's headed there now!

Wide Open.

[Donnachaidh]

2. pre-WWII Germans didn't believe it either.

[StellaBlue]

3. Exactly.

Numb.

[rock]

4. Who'll stop the rain?

[Sammy Pepys]

5. I think such a proposition...

...is extremely unlikely and not worth the energy used up to worry about it.

[Kingshakabobo]

6. At this point no.......After another "Pearl Harbor" type event???

Something worse than 9/11?

Look out.

[Finder]

7. Things always work themselves out, however real people are dying...

while we wait for the so-called political process to work.

It is in our nation's best interest to speak out and let the world know we the people do not agree with this arrogance.

[stopbush]

20. That's a Pollyannish view of history.

We see history as a straight line, because hindsight limns how history seems to have occurred as a natural progression from A to Z. What we don't see in that
straight line are the detours and byways that - if taken - would have moved that straight line in another direction.

I'm sure King George assumed that things would "work themselves out" in the colonies, because the might of England said they would. I'm sure the populace
of 1930s Germany assumed things would work themselves out. Ditto the Russian wars that would move them from a monarchy to...

No, we are at a crossroads, a crossroads in this country's history that will resonate as deeply as did our Declaration of Independence.

Things look to be "working themselves out" to our having a totalitarian government, a cowered populace and a world that hates us for our evils.

[Finder]

23. Yes, that was my point...We must do something NOW. n/t

[bullimiami]

8. i think they will keep getting more and more repressive until someone

stops them.

there are no fair elections and no checks and balances anymore. im afraid democracy is already dead.
we will see more proof when this election, despite all the lies and horrors, still keeps the repugs in power and maybe even increases their house and senate majorities.
it was obvious when the despised bastard was hoisted into the oval office twice.

[Ezlivin]

9. Do you know any of the people in the county or state prisons near you?

Hmmm.

They could very easily round us up and "detain" us indefinitely. They could easily put you and I into a detention facility far from either of our homes. We would be as unknown to the locals as the prisoners are to you (and me).

Don't forget that their base would gladly see atheists, liberals, gays and "women libbers" behind razor-wire fences.

[wryter2000]

10. It's hard to tell where it will end

Like you, I doubt there would be millions rounded up, but that doesn't mean they couldn't disappear thousands of us. I think they'd do it if they thought they could hold onto power that way.

[papercut]

11. If you don't believe it's possible before it happens,

then you won't believe it's happening as it happens. By which point it will be far too late to prevent it.

[NotGivingUp]

38. very, very true n/t

[SmokingJacket]

12. I don't really, but...

if it happened before, it can happen again. Logically, it *can* -- though I don't think it will. Maybe it's just lack of imagination on my part, or just a sense that it's impossibly far from where we were.

I think it will get worse before it gets better, though.

[GreenTea]

13. WOW! Unbelievable!

"Oh, no, no... they didn't have anything to do with 9/11"

[schmuls]

14. I think there would be assassinations and or a military coup

before internments would starts taking place. The internment camps do exist, by the way. Just wondering who Bushco is planning on putting there? People who rebel? Illegal immigrants? Invaders from the middle east? Aliens?

[boolean]

15. I never thought they'd spy on their own citizens either!!

And yet, that not only happened, is still happening, and will apparently continue to happen, but they also ADMIT it is happening and nobody cares.

This is how it starts. It starts very slowly until it's too late. All they need is to pass a bill to control the Internet next (which they already tried to do). They've already made it so they can steal elections. The media is almost entirely owned by them.

Maybe in 10 years or so it will finally happen.

Maybe sooner.

[TahitiNut]

16. So, 98% would be acceptable? 97%? 96%?

:eyes:

How many thousands of people need to be kept in a Gulag, without trial, without an attorny, interrogated by torture ... for it to be called autocratic?

[kestrel91316]

17. Yeah! 'Cause WE KNOW it can't happen here!

Just like it couldn't happen to those good German people............

[StellaBlue]

18. But do you guys REALLY think it will happen?

And, if so, would you be posting on here??????

[Sammy Pepys]

22. It won't happen.....n/t

....

[Dhalgren]

28. Even as the Nazis were solidifying power in '34 &'35 there were

brave newspaper editors and writers who were screaming from the rooftops about what the Nazis were doing, what they planned, and who the Nazis really were. All of those newspaper people were hunted down, killed outright or imprisoned and then killed.

Fascists don't follow a script, they go with what works. So, the question is: Is this working for them? My answer would be: Yes...

[kerry-is-my-prez]

19. It seems that no-one can stop them.... They roll over anyone who tries.

n/t

[Avalux]

21. History tells us that men with unchecked power will abuse it.

So yes, we are headed there unless they are stopped. Sometimes people think the "United States" is immune to the pitfalls that have gripped the countries of history. We are no less susceptible, and thinking "it can't happen here" is foolish.

To answer your question - I believe it is happening and I am posting here because I refuse to be afraid and be quiet.

[Hubert Flottz]

26. I'm of the same mind as you.

I will not just lay down and play dumb.

[JohnnyLib2]

24. elder here, who remembers martial law in Nashville, Memphis, LA,

many more cities after the MLK assassination. You drive to school or work one day and ---- wham! The streets are closed and patrolled at sundown. And you think, "how could this happen." But you are fearful of challenging it.......

[EnfantTerrible]

25. "...WILL turn.."?

It's already there. Where have you been?

[StellaBlue]

29. no it hasn't

I used to use that rhetoric, too.

We still have free speech. We are silenced in practice, but not legally. We have not yet been rounded up. That's my point. When will it happen? If we REALLY thought it WOULD happen, would be all be typing away on here?

I do not have an answer; it was an honest question.

[EnfantTerrible]

33. You think it's free speech?

Around here? heh heh heh Bwaa ha haaa haaaaaa!

Puhleeze! I've had a thread deleted three times now for doing nothing more than showing the faces of the Dems who support Torture! Free Speech is an illusion...

[StellaBlue]

34. That's censorship

Not fascism

Who is in charge of DU?

Cheney? No.

YOu may be shouted down or ignored or deleted. But you can still say what you want. You have not been imprisoned.

[EnfantTerrible]

37. Riiiiight...

Okay. You call it whatever you need to. "That's cencorship not fascism" heh heh bwaaaaa haaaaaa haaaaa

[StellaBlue]

49. cultural silencing of people does NOT equal government internment

Sorry, you're just wrong on this one.

[EnfantTerrible]

62. Government internment

does not equal fascism either. At least not if you were Japanese American during WWII. I think you need to broaden your definition. Fascism is the marriage of the corporate and the governmental. Or as Musollini liked to quote "Another name for Fascism is Corporatism". Controlled media, suppressed human rights, military agression. If it feels, smells, and tastes like fascism... well you get the point.

[Ganja Ninja]

27. The Bush administration has a track record that should tell you ...

everything. Take the no-fly list for example. They had no problem mixing political opponents in with terrorists on that list. Hell all you have to do is have a name similar to someone on the list and you could be disappeared.

[mmonk]

30. It's already gone beyond what I imagined.

I wouldn't mind seeing the old democracy kick its heels up a little and fight back.

[aquart]

31. Well, get out there, sweetie, and see who stands with you.

Today it will be precious few. America still doesn't really believe that basic, intrinsic changes are happening.

But events overtake even would-be dictators. If the Republicans manage to hold on to power, no one will be sorrier than they.

What are their choices? War with Iran? Without a draft? Without new taxes? Good luck with that.

Continuing attrition in Iraq? Afghanistan?

Oil prices will pop after the election because the Middle East will be even more unstable. And because our oil industry is greedy and unregulated.

There is no money to do anything and the Republicans won't tax.

The religious right will continue its pressure. The backlash will get nastier. How will Republicans keep a lid on that? Mass arrests? Selected disappearances?

States, starved of federal funds, will begin acting independently in their own interests. They already have.

Our soldiers will be killing other people and themselves at soul-gutting rates. How long is that sustainable?

We are making NO sensible decisions about the coming climate change. Ready for famine? Thirst? Another city lost like New Orleans? When a civilization has to retreat because its major cities cease to be viable, has history ever recorded a recovery?

What happens when the military is ordered to fire on citizens at a protest?

And what happens if other nations see us as in collapse and come to pick over the spoils?

The mess the Democrats will have to clean up if we win is nothing to the mess the Republicans will have if they continue.

[JohnnyLib2]

32. Kent State shootings,

another horrible lesson from history.

[aquart]

39. Every campus in the nation was mobilized and shut down within hours.

That was before the internet.

I recall sitting in the classroom of a commuter school where every sheltered darling went home at night to Mom and Dad, discussing how to make a molotov cocktail...because we did not know if Kent State signaled an all-out assault on student protesters.

We were scheduled for a protest in DC that weekend. My first thought was No way am I going where anyone can shoot me. And then I got so mad. WTF were they to stop me going?

Before we got on the train, Pratt Institute people handed out old, thick copies of Vogue, to wrap around our arms to protect against nightstick beatings. I carried that Vogue all day.

The sun was hot in DC. Our biggest threat was heat prostration and stroke. And it was very, very peaceful indeed.

[Solly Mack]

35. what percentage is acceptable?

sheesh

as long as they abuse others it's OK?

as long as they go after other Americans and not me , it's OK?

intern/murder/torture one and you terrorize the rest...that's the essence of terrorism.

[StellaBlue]

51. No,of course not

People are totalling missing my point.

I am just asking if we all REALLY believe WE will personally be getting a visit from the Ameican Stasi. And, if we really believed it, would we all be on here chatting away?

I ask myself this question. I think I don't REALLY think it will happen. Whether that's silly or naive or wishful or realistic... I am not sure.

I do think they are fascists. I do think our government has done great evil, especially during this administration.

I've read my Howard Zinn. I get it.

[Solly Mack]

57. There's a quote in a DU'ers sig line

and I feel awful I can't recall the DU'er...or the quote exactly

but the gist is...government will never fully take away the trappings of democracy...they'll still be enough in place to keep the people quiet and complacent.

So the end result is...you get a totalitarian government that they people adapt to because it's done slowly and leaving enough of the window dressing to keep the people happy

So yes...even believing that, I'd still post


cause...and I say this meaning it whole-heartedly...they can only kill me once.

[Skidmore]

36. Stella, there is nothing to prevent it if this legislation goes through

--absolutely nothing. All power will be vested in one insane man who has done much to affront human decency already. Are you willing to risk that?

[truebrit71]

40. What do you mean "MIGHT"....???

We are already there..the only thing missing is the physical implementation of Marshal Law....and that is not far off....

[EnfantTerrible]

41. "Martial"

but I get what you meant. I make the same mistake myself when I'm impassioned about the State in which we live. Some around here still believe that this is a Democracy. No matter how many elections are stolen or how many falseflag ops are perpetrated against it's own people. Bit late to worry about all of that now though.

[truebrit71]

47. Thanks.....D'oh!!!!

Martial.....what a dummy I be....

[StellaBlue]

52. I don't think this is a democracy

and I have been saying so, to anyone who would listen, since 2000!

But the last nail has not (yet) been driven into the coffin. Or we wouldn't be here talking in this virtual room RIGHT NOW.

The death of the internet will be the final nail in the coffin, methinks.

[shadowknows69]

55. There was a really kick ass comic called Marshall Law.

The more you know N B C!!!

[SammyWinstonJack]

43. Is Florida still under martial law? Jeb declared martial law on 09/07/01

Is it still so?

[loyalsister]

42. Can't forget the more subtle parts

One part of it is making sure that there is a larger united group. A majority turning on clusters of minorities bonds them.
"The dominant culture of America against brown people" has been heavily cultivated with propaganda.
Hate groups have become more popular bringing people together against "others."
Then this law is passed.
Anyone who has seen Iron Jawed Angels or studied the civil rights movement, imagine what may have happened if this law had been in place.....

[novalib]

44. YES!! YES!!! YESSSSSSS!!!!!!!

I thinki -- I KNOW -- that our government is already TOTALITARIAN!!!

It just keeps getting worse and worse -- the thugs who are part of the corrupt Bush cabal/regime know no limits to their depravity and monstrous hunger for total and absolute power!!!!!

I post here because it is the only way left to speak out against the thugs!!!

And I post here because I know that there are others who feel the same way I do.

WE ARE THE UNDERGROUND!!

WE ARE THE ONLY ONES KEEPING THE HOPE ALIVE!!!!!

[stepnw1f]

45. Yes... "We the People" May Actually Have to Place Our Necks

on the line like our soldiers do every damn day.

[Rex]

46. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It is not a maybe but a given. It is NOT a party issue, it is a way people behave with absolute power.

EDIT - it is a little too late to be worrying about if someone would or would not post here knowing that the govt would round us up. 'The dye is set' and the mere fact that you post here means the one conclusion is inevitable. Unless they lose total power.

[sinkingfeeling]

48. No, not 100% totalitarian. But we can now conclude that the USA is in

the grip of some type of pseudo-fascism. 100% totalitarian would make Bush a true dictator and I think the GOP/neocons want to keep up the facade of 'democracy' so the 'people' will continue to go along with whatever they want. You know, they will continue to call those who dissent, "traitors" or "appeasers" or "anti-American" while they continue to concentrate power into the 'unitary executive' and dis-mantle our civil rights.

[buddhamama]

50. we have been going down the Totalitarian slippery slope

since Bush took office.

[shadowknows69]

53. I believe it

n/t

[leftofthedial]

54. they are fascists

they'll kill anyone they want


1% totalitarian is 1% too much

[treestar]

56. I don't think it will happen but the reason for that is because we

see it coming and protest it this soon - we are especially sensitive to seeing oppression, but that is not a bad thing. We see it coming from far away and start trying to head it off even when it is still at a distance. That is good.

I think it's like the alleged fear of terror from the RW. You know they aren't really scared that they themselves will be killed by Arab terrorists. Likewise, we know we won't be, or don't really feel scared of, being rounded up. It's in the nature of Americans today to overdramatize and exaggerate.

The Administration will have this on the books to use in certain cases that will lead to terrible injustice for a few individuals. The sheeple, as usual, will not care.

Doesn't make it useless to fight against it, though. It can be bent back in the right direction eventually.

[leftchick]

58. we are only a bill away

it will happen. It has happened before and it will happen again.

:(

[bvar22]

59. How much freedom do you really have?

Those that want "Total Control" have learned a great deal over the last 60-70 years, and think on a much grander scale than the Nazis or Stalinist. They have visions of entire continents being transformed into virtual "Labor Camps" controlled by an Authoritarian "One Party" Corporate Owned government.
It would be necessary to provide the inmates (The Labor Class) the illusion of free speech and Political Representation, but the REALITY would be effectively One-Party Rule (The Corporate Party).

It won't be necessary to put millions into camps since the whole country will become a labor camp.
In order to prevent movements, it is only necessarily to disappear early leaders, or to marginalize them through the National Propaganda Outlet (TV).

If a member of the Labor Class wants to eat and feed his family(have an income), he/she will be given the choice. Those that rebel against the "Ruling Class" will find it very difficult to keep a decent job, place his children in decent schools, obtain any type of government assistance, grants, loans, contracts, or representation on boards, councils, or zoning commissions. (that will be reserved for Party members).


As soon as the borders are hardened, and Passports are encoded with a "chip", you won't even have the freedom to leave.



How close are we?
Look around.



The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[earth mom]

63. North American Union anyone?

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/staticpages/index.php/20060830133702539

Timeline of the Progress Toward a North American Union

Canadian, U.S., and Mexican elites, including CEOS and politicians, have a plan to create common North American policies and further integrate our economies. This plan goes by various names and euphemisms, such as "deep integration", "NAFTA-plus", "harmonization", the "Big Idea", the "Grand Bargain", and the "North American Security and Prosperity Initiative". Regardless of which name your prefer, the end goal of all of these plans is to create a new political and economic entity that would supercede the existing countries. Advocates refer to it as a "North American Community", but it is also known as the North American Union (NAU). Theoretically, it would be similar to and competetive with the European Union (EU). The individual currencies of each country would be replaced by a common currency called the "Amero" and everything from environmental regulations to security would be brought in line with a common standard.

Vive le Canada.ca offers the following timeline as a resource to educate the general public about the progress of the three countries toward a new North American Union (NAU).

more:
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/staticpages/index.php/20060830133702539


Here's the scandal that should be outraging Canadians across the country. On September 12-14, elite proponents of deep integration from Canada, the U.S. and Mexico met at a secret conference at the Banff Springs Hotel. Stockwell Day, Tom d'Aquino and other high-profile Canadians were there. But the Hotel doesn't want to talk about it. No major media reported on the conference--not The Globe and Mail, not the National Post, not the Toronto Star, no one. Yet the topic of the conference, deep integration or the formation of a "North American Community" aka the North American Union, will profoundly affect everything in our lives from our health and security to the currency we use (soon to be the "Amero") to our very national identity. In essence, we will no longer be Canadians, but North Americans only--and worse, North Americans hog-tied in lock-step with the U.S. even as they gain open access to our energy resources.

more:
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php?story=20060919132553106

[BelgianMadCow]

60. Now? No. Soon? Yes if they lose lelections, steal,

mass protests -> then you could see it.

[laundry_queen]

61. Of course it's not going to happen that way.

Everyone is looking back and thinking 'well, I don't think they will put us in death camps'. C'mon, imagination people! It'll be different - different enough most will not see it coming. And yes, I think they are entirely capable of it.