Catholic Magazine: Americans, especially Catholics, approve of torture

[kerry-is-my-prez]

Take it easy - I'm not trying to Catholic-bash - this article just happens to be from a Catholic Newsweekly. They are freaking out about the number of Catholics who support torture and are asking why. (IMO - we need to figure out why so many AMERICANS support it before we're going to change things.)

It seems like this article is overstating people's support of terror but still - holy crap. If there are so many people who partially support it or simply just don't care - we have a hell of a lot of work to do.

http://www.natcath.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006a/032406/032406h.htm
Americans, especially Catholics, approve of torture
By TOM CARNEY

Is the American public apathetic about charges its government uses and sponsors torture in its fight against terrorism?

Not apathetic, according to surveys. Fact is, a majority of Americans actually approve of the use of torture under some circumstances. What’s more, according to one survey, Catholics approve of its use by a wider margin than the general public.

“This may be a reaction to 9/11, the horrible loss of life and the atrocities of those acting in the name of Islam,” says Bishop John H. Ricard of Pensacola-Tallahassee, Fla., member of the bishops’ Committee on International Policy. “Some people feel the situation is out of control. They feel a vulnerability and a temptation to respond in kind. We have to resist that.”

A survey by the Pew Research Center in October showed that 15 percent of Americans believe torture is “often” justified, and another 31 percent believe it is “sometimes” justified. Add to that another 17 percent who said it is “rarely” justified, and you have two out of three Americans justifying torture under certain circumstances. Only 32 percent said it is “never” justified, while another 5 percent didn’t know or refused to answer.

-snip-

[Jacobin]

1. We're fucked

[spuddonna]

2. Where do they get these people?!

My family is Catholic. No one I know agrees that torture is acceptable EVER!

Where are they finding these people?!! If they learned anything during CCD, they should know this is wrong... I simply don't get it...

[kerry-is-my-prez]

8. I think that the asswipes are getting more of a foothold

We have that freak Tom Monaghan here in SW FLorida starting up some nutjob church/university so they can teach MORE people to become nutjobs....

[spuddonna]

14. It's breaking my heart...

The people I knew in the church growing up were NEVER like this...

It hurts to see this, it really does...

[w4rma]

22. I guess they are the types of people that don't talk to anyone outside

of their own families and work associates.

Work, eat, sleep, close family. That's it. That's all. They are ignorant of how the world works from the ivory towers they live in.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

25. I'm with you on that.

I'm Catholic--very involved actually--and nobody I know supports it.

It would be interesting to see how it breaks down along party lines within Catholics. My guess is that it's more of a Republican/Democrat issue than a Catholic/non-Catholic issue.

[SharonAnn]

41. This Sunday our priest spoke against torture at Mass. I was surprised.

I rarely attend, but my sister was in town and she wanted to attend Mass. So we went. The priest is young but pretty conservative and I didn't expect that he would talk on that, but he did.

It was a nice surprise.

Friend of mine saw me there, came up to me, and said "I didn't know you went to church here." I told her that I don't regularly attend and that they'd have to make changes before they'd see me back. She asked why, I told her they'd need to start by ordaining women. She started to give me the same-old explanation and justification and I told here that it was something I've thought about for 40 years, it's my belief, and it's not likely to change. She wanted to continue to discuss it but I told her that I'd rather not, it's personal to me and I would think that it would be for all women.

I hope I didn't make an enemy but they need to see and hear people talking back.

Also, visiting my Dad before he died a few weeks ago, I attended Mass with my siblings. Of course it had to have Paul's letter to the Ephesians about wives submitting to their husbands as the reading. That part was marked in brackets, meaning they could omit it, but they read the entire thing. I got up and walked out. My brother was tesing me (?) that maybe it was in the week's reading because I needed to hear the message. I told him that I thought it was there becasue the priest and congregants needed to see a woman get up and walk out when she is discriminated against. He said he'd never thought of it that way.

Ahh, the power of "framing".

[spuddonna]

56. Awesome! :)

>>>"I told him that I thought it was there becasue
>>>the priest and congregants needed to see a woman
>>>get up and walk out when she is discriminated
>>>against."

Great job! And I love your framing - most excellent! :thumbsup:

I don't regularly attend church anymore, for many reasons. That the church still prohibits women priests is really surprising to me. I honestly thought as a young lady that I would see it in my lifetime.

I'm not holding my breath now! lol

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Sure! Just so long as the torturers aren't using birth control

everything is hunky-dory.

[pnwmom]

53. The Church is as opposed to torture as to abortion.

But the message clearly hasn't gotten through to those in the pews.

[Warren DeMontague]

79. The church is also opposed to ALL forms of birth control.

And they preach at consenting adults for their sex choices while engaging in massive, criminal conspiracy to cover up for widespread abuse by pedophile Priests.

Call me crazy, but I think their priorities are fucked.

[mmonk]

4. That probably can be applied across the board

concerning America's Christian community although I know the Unitarian Universalists and the Quakers and few others would buck the trend.

[rubberducky]

5. I left the catholic church when they told me during a sermon

not to vote for Kerry. Took hold of my grandson`s hand and walked out, never to return.

[mnhtnbb]

11. Too bad you didn't let Barry Lynn of Americans United for

Separation of Church and State know. He'd have been happy to write the IRS a letter suggesting they investigate and pull their charitable exemption from paying taxes.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

16. Sorry - the IRS is too busy going after the few LIBERAL churches there are

If they have time - maybe they'll pencil it in....

[Mountainman]

6. We overwhelmingly believe that we can torture information out of bad

guys who want to kill us and that information will keep us safe. It is not so much that people want to torture. They have been lied to. If the truth were known, that torture does not keep you safe, I doubt that so many would be for it. Basically we are a stupid bunch of people. Most right wing talking points are lies but are believed by the majority of people.

[JHB]

20. And on top of that...

...there's a belief that anyone who is accused and arrested is guilty, and so observing an accused legal rights only serves to let criminals get off the hook.

Too many "Dirty Harry"/vigilante movies in the 70s and 80s.

[mnhtnbb]

7. Hey, who brought you the Inquisition?

[mnhtnbb]

18. And who looked the other way when Hitler was gassing people?

Take a look at the history of the Catholic Church and the Pope who winked and looked the other way while millions were sent to death camps.

[pnwmom]

60. We all did.

Millions died before we intervened, and the Pope didn't have an army, as we did.

[mnhtnbb]

71. The Pope had moral authority--or pretended to, anyway.

[pnwmom]

74. The Pope was trying to act behind the scenes. Millions of

Catholic lives were at stake in Poland, too -- the Church had as much of a personal stake in this as anybody. I'm sure the Pope made mistakes, but he was trying to end the Holocaust in a way that he thought would save more lives.

As I said, he didn't have an army. We did. But we waited to use it until millions had died, and we turned away refugees, so I don't think we're in a position to judge the Church. We claim to be a country founded on Judeo-Christian values. Where were we?

[mnhtnbb]

78. Whoa. There is damning evidence that Pope Pius XII helped Hitler to power

and knew about the Holocaust. (Prescott Bush (GWB's grandfather) was providing funding for the Nazis until FDR made him stop.) The BFEE
has been in bed with the wrong side of the Catholic Church for decades.

"Long-buried Vatican files reveal a new and shocking indictment of World War II's Pope Plus XII: that in pursuit of absolute power he helped Adolf Hitler destroy German Catholic political opposition, betrayed the Jews of Europe, and sealed a deeply cynical pact with a 20th-century devil."


http://www.reformation.org/hitler_pope.html

[patcox2]

43. The article was about how priests and church officials are alarmed.

The church is against torture and is alarmed that its american members support it. Did you even read it?

[pnwmom]

61. Clearly they didn't. This is just more fodder for Catholic bashing.

[Strawman]

80. Not the people at National Catholic Reporter

People like Sister Joan Chittister, Bishop Thomas Gumbleton, compassionate extrordinary people who truly understand what it means to follow Christ's example.

I think Joan Chittister is great. I'm not a Catholic anymore but I think she is wonderful.

[orwell]

9. This doesn't surprise me at all...

...most of my fellow citizens are the terrified product of decades of effective propaganda. It is very easy for them to rationalize almost anything that they believe threatens their right to endlessly consume beyond their means and externalize the true costs.

Let's get over this notion that there was anything especially moral about the USA. There wasn't and isn't. It's just finally becoming "politically correct" to admit it.

After all, everything changed after 9/11...

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. 24/7 message of "TERROR" be "VERY AFRAID"

n/t

[SmokingJacket]

10. It's odd that a secular population is more anti-torture than

a religious one. Do any religions actually advocate torture??

[redqueen]

12. spare the rod? n/t

[mnhtnbb]

15. Another misunderstood scripture. "spare the rod" referred to

the shepherd who used his shepherd's rod to gently nudge his sheep in the right direction. It was NOT used to beat the animals.

[pnwmom]

34. Thank you. That was exactly what I learned, in a sermon.

The rod is the "staff" -- not a torture instrument.

[redqueen]

36. That whole book is used that way. I hate that more don't speak up

about it's misinterpretation.

Look up any discussion about spanking. You'll see it being misrepresented all to hell and back.

[pnwmom]

30. The Catholic Church unequivocally opposes torture. But the message

isn't "taking." At least, among those surveyed.

Previous studies have shown that more frequent church goers of any stripe are like to be conservative. I wonder how they defined Catholic in this study? If it was based on frequent church attendance, then they automatically got a more conservative sample of the population.

[SharonAnn]

42. Our priest spoke against it on Sunday. Said that Catholic Christians

must be against torture. No ifs, ands or buts.

[Matariki]

17. well they have a rich history

i've visited churches in Europe that have preserved tortrue chambers in them.

[sandnsea]

19. That's what all the polls have said

I know people get mad at me when I say it, but I really do question whether some DUers are the ones who need to get out more or surround themselves with people of a particular point of view. This poll is what I hear folks saying. I don't know why DUers are so surprised by it, and it shows that we have done a lousy job changing minds. That's what I was saying in my other thread. Based on this poll, it's amazing that we got 160 Dems to vote againt torture. The problem isn't the Party, it's these pockets of people who we haven't reached.

[Clark2008]

21. I don't know a lot of people, personally, who think torture is OK

and I live in a red state.

But, then again, most of the people in my red state have served in the military and wouldn't want another country to overlook the Geneva Conventions on them.

[sandnsea]

24. Then where are those military people?

Sorry, if the military were really against this, this bill wouldn't even have made it to the floor.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

50. Only left-leaning Dems seemed to be concerned about it where I'm at.

A lot of non-left people I've talked to say it's ok if they're ARABS (seriously) and they are going to try and take over this country or try and kill us. Even the people who don't agree I suspect don't really care "THAT" much or would "look the other way."

[kerry-is-my-prez]

23. and the media just keeps getting worse and worse.....

it just seems like it's an impossible situation.

[sandnsea]

27. Oh yeah, they're absent on this too

No doubt about it. It shouldn't matter what Democrats are saying or whether Republicans are or aren't negotiating with the White House - the press had a responsibility to fully examine this bill. They didn't do it, once again.

[pnwmom]

40. Right, sandnsea. The Republicans like to boil this down to the

"worst case scenario." What if we had a suspected terrorist who knew where there were nuclear bombs planted in cities across America? Then would torture be okay? It is easy to find some support of torture under this stated scenario.

That doesn't mean we should legalize it. But it might explain the survey numbers.

[sandnsea]

44. Which has nothing to do with any religion

This sort of thing is why we continue to miss the point and frame issues in ways that don't sway the voters. Lindsey Graham just said it - The Germans and Japanese didn't have habeas rights for prisoners of war - well helloooo - that's why we've got the Geneva Coventions in the first place!! He just said we're going to conduct war the way the Germans and Japanese did. :crazy:

[pnwmom]

63. Unbelievable! Except that it's so believable . . . coming from them.

[pnwmom]

26. The Catholic Church's position AGAINST torture is UNEQUIVOCABLE.

Just as the position against abortion, for example.

If the people in the pews have a different opinion, it's not because of what they're hearing at Church.

Surveys have shown that people of any denomination who regularly attend Church tend to be more conservative. I wonder how "Catholic" was defined in this study.

[The Stranger]

28. Cue "The Inquisition - let's begin . . The Inquisition -- start the show"

from Mel Brooks' History of the World, Part I.

[pnwmom]

65. And how many hundreds of years ago was the Inquisition?

Is it inconceivable to you that Catholics, and the Catholic Church, have evolved beyond that?

I'm not saying that the Church isn't deeply flawed -- its response to the molestation issue proves that -- but the whole world was different during the time of the Inquisition. The Church was different then, too.

[The Stranger]

77. Relax, I was just singing Mel Brooks (for crying out loud).

[CoffeeCat]

29. Five words.................

"The Inquisition....what a show!"

[gully]

31. The Inquisition comes to mind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAVJ9ZyghlA

Mel Brooks, History of The World {Part 1}

[Rainscents]

32. Yeah, Catholic is the one... Who let Jesus to be tortured

and I can understand why, to this day, it's still acceptable.

[pnwmom]

49. The Catholics let Jesus be tortured? What kind of nonsense is this?

The Catholic church didn't exist until after Jesus's death. Jesus was the one who allowed himself to be tortured; he told his followers not to intervene.

[Rainscents]

66. ROME is Catholic and ROMES been around way before Jesus time!

Rome accepted Christianity after Jesus death. I know my Bible and history.

[pnwmom]

67. Rome wasn't Catholic when the Romans tortured Christ.

It was Pagan. Catholicism -- and Christianity -- didn't exist.

You need to brush up on your Bible and history.

[Generator]

33. No torture, no savior?

Is that the connection? Sounds flip, but I wonder. It seems to worship saints-who many died horrific deaths by torture. That seems to be the highest standard-be tortured, get holy. Even the whole symbol for the relgion is one of a man being tortured. It just can't be denied. Think Mel Gibson's movie. Why was that focus-instead of the truly revolutionary, visionary things Christ supposedly said and did the more worthy of a movie than what was his end?

[pnwmom]

51. So Mel Gibson's MOVIE is the standard now?

Sorry, but he isn't even Catholic. His father set up his own little Church, funded by Gibson, and appropriated the name "Catholic." The worst thing is that the media keeps referring to him as a "conservative Catholic" when he isn't Catholic at all. You can't set up your own competing church and still be Catholic, no matter what you name your competing church.

And Mel Gibson decided to make torture the whole focus of the movie for reasons that belong solely to Mel Gibson.

The Church focuses strongly on the Resurrection. That's why Easter Sunday is the major religious holiday of the year.

[Bake]

35. Didn't they invent the Iron Maiden?

And other relics of the Inquisition?

Bake

[coalition_unwilling]

37. Torture is as American as apple pie and baseball (n/t)

[Cleita]

38. I dunno. When I was in parochial school back in the forties,

the nuns were pretty good at administering discipline that came very close to the line that would cross over into torture. Also, we were taught that we had to suffer to be redeemed. If the normal suffering we received in life wasn't enough we could ratchet the suffering up ourselves with various means of masochistic practices guaranteed to put us in the same company as the saints. So I'm not surprised that many don't see anything wrong with it.

[kestrel91316]

39. Just remember, the Inquisition was the Catholics' doing.

NOT Catholic-bashing. Just reminding everybody of history.

[pnwmom]

54. The Church has evolved since the Inquisition. Civilization has in general.

[kestrel91316]

75. I would submit, however, that the church has evolved LESS

than civilization.

Though Bushco does give me pause here.

[rodeodance]

45. many of the Catholics I know are Bush susporters--so it is no mystrey

to me.

[Orangeone]

46. It's Human Nature

People don't care about something if it's not likely to happen to themselves or to loved ones. Torture is fine if it's happening to Muslims. What if it was targeted at Catholics? Would they be cool with it?

[frylock]

47. silly catholics. they're no better then the muslims or wicca..

in the eyes of the "real" christians. Pastor Niemoller spins in his grave.

[Rex]

48. Well if you look at the history of The Church

one can see why torture is not a big issue.

[pnwmom]

55. The Church strongly opposes torture. The teaching is clear.

But just as with other issues -- its opposition to the death penalty, birth control, abortion, etc -- individual believers make up their own minds.

[Rex]

58. They do now, but things change.

I agree, the Church would never go back to torture. I can see how people would look at the history of the Church, though and decide it might be a useful tool. Like you said, individual believers make up their own minds. That is the difference between today and a few hundred years ago.

[Atman]

52. That nailing to the cross thing wasn't exactly a day at the beach.

Maybe they view it differntly than others. Don't forget, they LOVED Mel's little Religio-snuff film.

:shrug:

[ProgressiveEconomist]

57. Did crucifixion cause organ failure? If not, Dubya might exercise

his executive privilege to allow it, using the new powers he'll get tomorrow.

Nowadays, there must be better nails that wouldn't cause such rapid loss of blood.

[pnwmom]

59. Who is the "they"? Not the Catholics that I know.

Gibson is not a "conservative Catholic" (as the media like to call him), he is not Catholic at all. He is the chief financial backer to his father's special little church that uses the name "Catholic" but is in no way associated with the Roman Catholic Church.

Gibson's movie drew large numbers of attendees but they could have been anyone. I'm guessing, though, that there were probably a lot of fundies in attendance, because that's more how Gibson and his father lean.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

62. I bet a lot of people are fooled by the "interrogating a terrorist about

a nuclear bomb that is set to go off under an American city" scenario, a scenario that has never happened outside of ethics class discussions.

[pnwmom]

64. I think so too. That's the scenario the Republicans are constantly

setting out and I bet it is on people's minds when they say there are "some situations" where they might condone torture.

[ProgressiveEconomist]

68. Were Senators voting logically, the key question would be, "how much

harm to innocent people would they risk to perhaps avoid letting some with guilty knowledge go free?"

I doubt that many sitting Senators would or could frame the issue in that way. And among those who could, I'm sure there would be different answers for different kinds of people. I'd bet Senators would be willing to risk more brutality to the innocent among Arabs, Arab-Americans, and other groups their constituents might hold in low social regard.

I think this torture issue is logically very similar to the "tough on crime" measures that have resulted in eight-to-one racial disparities in incarceration rates,

[ProgressiveEconomist]

69. Notice that SECULAR prople were most likely to say NEVER justified

"Do you think the use of torture against suspected terrorists in order to gain important information can often be justified, sometimes be justified, rarely be justified, or never be justified?

NEVER (percent)
41 Secular
31 White Protestant
31 White Evangelical
26 Total Catholic
32 Total Public"

Notice also that the percentage who said "rarely" was 16 or 17 in all groups listed

[leftchick]

70. we have a Peace Nun who comes to our church

She attends mass several days a week and my boys and I love her car stickers... "world peace" "torture is not a family value" among others. She is very old and extremely cool.

:)

[marions ghost]

72. After Abu Ghraib

the average American would have a good idea of the abuses that actually go on...which makes these figures even more depressing. Given the climate after 9-11 I would expect people to condone torture more readily.

However I wonder if there's not a "Lord of the Flies" effect. When people feel abused and uncertain themselves, they are more likely to condone the abuse of others.

Or maybe it's just a built-in tendency to "otherize" in general. You can feel safer yourself if you allow others to be abused. A very abstract connection.

The Milgram experiments in the 60's at Yale are often cited as indicative of how easy it is to persuade the average person to inflict torture. 60% of students in the study were willing to administer a "severe shock" to a person they did not know.

So maybe nothing's really changed since then....!?

http://www.ralphmag.org/milgrimZN.html

"Although the learner appeared to be just another volunteer, he was actually a confederate of Milgram's and received no shock at all. The setup, however, was very realistic. The instrument panel of the shock generator, for example, engraved by precision industrial engravers and bore a label from the fictional Dyson Instrument Company, Waltham, Mass. Each subject was given a sample shock of forty-five volts from the generator prior to beginning the test, a shock accomplished by depressing the third switch on the machine.

The students had no anger, no vindictiveness, and no hatred for the person they were shocking, nor would they have suffered any punishment for refusing to continue. Yet 60 percent of the students were fully obedient, applying shocks of 450 volts in spite of the label on the dial that said Danger: Severe Shock."

[lumberjack_jeff]

73. And we come full circle. We now elect Pontius Pilate.

Is crucifixion one of the approved "aggressive interrogation methods"?

[AX10]

76. One of the best choices I have ever made was to leave that evil cult.

This support should come as no suprise as this is the church of Opus Dei. :scared:

[and-justice-for-all]

81. Well of course...You think anything has chnaged since the...

..The Dark Ages? During the Black Plague the Church persecuted the Jews with torture and murder brcause the Church blamed the plague on the Jews. Torture is something that sadistic bible thumpers get off on along with opression upon those who dont conform to their ideology.

Fuck those people, its their g-d, their rules so they can burn in hell.