Are we all over-reacting to this torture bill ?

[kentuck]

Shouldn't we trust those Senators that are elected to study these issues to do the right thing? After all, they wouldn't do anything in contradiction to our Constitution, right? Is this issue just overblown here on DU?

Would it really be possible for them to take away a DUer without a trial or a hearing, for giving "support" to the "terrorists"? Just because they want to do away with habeus corpus, is that really a big deal? Is it that some people here think they are smarter than the US Senators that are making these decisions? Surely they would not do anything to harm this country or our citizens, right?

This is just politics - it's nothing to really be concerned about. You'll still have a few rights left. After all, you didn't need them all anyway. It's more important that we get Democrats into office than whether or not we lose a few rights here and there? Some people just have difficulty putting this into the proper perspective, right?

[Options Remain]

1. those who would trace the limits of my freedom

seek only to give me the opposite of freedom.

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

2. First They Came For My Neighbors....

And I said nothing, for it wasn't me.

Then they came for my friends.

I said nothing, for it wasn't me.

Then they came for me.

And there was nobody left to save me, as all my friends and neighbors had gone.

[mom cat]

42. Bingo!

[meganmonkey]

3. You know some people

really need you to use the sarcasm tag.

Meanwhile: :popcorn:

[kentuck]

5. uh-huh...

I feel sorry for them.

[rkc3]

12. those people suffer from Sarchasm.

The wide gulf between the statement and the blank look from the idiot who doesn't get it.

[Solly Mack]

22. excellent play on words!!!

lololololol

[nam78_two]

4. heh...I didn't get that it was sarcasm at first

I am dim :)

[Ksec]

6. The Courts would strike it down anyway

I still have some hope. Not much, but some.

[redqueen]

7. Which court is that? Scalia's?

Mmm hmm... suuuuure they will.

[Ksec]

24. They already did

Just a few weeks ago. Remember?

[redqueen]

35. Uh huh.

Isn't that why they're doing this work around?

You have that much faith the court will do the same the next time around?

[Donnachaidh]

8. are you kidding me?

Trust Senators that have continually rolled over and did NOTHING?

Trust Senators that don't even QUESTION what is being done?

Yah -- same scenario, different century. Pre-WWI, Germany.

We've *trusted* far too long. That's why we're in such a potential shitstorm.

[Solly Mack]

9. wonderfully said

[mmonk]

10. How does one over-react to a torture bill, I wonder?

No doubt, some will still say so.

[AndyA]

11. You can probably answer your question yourself.

Do you trust this man to make the right decision to protect your rights?



Given his history, I don't know how anyone could feel secure in the knowledge that their destiny lies solely in the hands of this man.

Alcoholic.

Drug abuser.

Liar.

Bigot.

No one in their right mind would feel secure.

[TexasProgresive]

13. kentuck, you have a fine sense of irony

I like that.

[kentuck]

16. Sometimes you need to get people to question their beliefs...

from a different light.

peace

[librechik]

14. seriously, are these guys counting on the unconstitutionality of the bill

to excuse their yes vote?--after all, if it's illegal, who cares who voted for it, right?

(hoping that's the answer to a completely unacceptable situation)

[Swamp Rat]

15. Yeah, who needs the Magna Carta anyway!

Hooray for the New Dark Ages!

[Benhurst]

33. Don't knock the Dark Ages. The accused could always

seek sanctuary in The Church when faced with false arrest -- more than a present-day American will be able to do.

[acmejack]

37. Those stake burnings always cast of such a neat glow.

We could always sit around and try to guess the sin of the convicted, by the aura they emitted. After all if it is not specifically forbidden it must be permitted, correct?

[mohinoaklawnillinois]

17. LOL Kentuck, you've just outlined all the Repuke talking points

later this afternoon and tonight.

Sadly though, many more Americans will think that this is the "right" way.

I cry for my beloved country. I really don't recognize it anymore.

[lebkuchen]

18. How soon before Hastert has Pelosi carted away?

Hastert said Pelosi and others like her, who do not support Bush's insane policies, "coddle" terrorists. Why doesn't Hastert just cut to the chase and send Pelosi an anthrax letter, like he wants to?

This dangerous compromise not only authorizes the president to seize and hold terrorists who have fought against our troops "during an armed conflict," it also allows him to seize anybody who has "purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States."

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-ackerman28sep28,0,619852.story?coll=la-opinion-rightrail

That "compromise" cuts a wide swath, depending on how it's interpreted. After all, Bush has said, if you're not with him, you're against him.

[Hugin]

19. Maybe if I spent some time on a waterboard I wouldn't be so...

'uppity' about it. :eyes:

[spuddonna]

20. Hey seriously though...

Last night I had one of those "am I over-reacting" moments to my hubby.

I look outside and it's beautiful, sunny, birds chirping...
People are rushing down my street to go shopping... It's a normal day.

The majority of the citizens of our country have no fucking clue that their democracy is in its last gasps...

And now I'm wondering if the funny link Philosoraptor had on getting uniforms last night so us Libs don't get waterboarded was actually a really good idea... http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2232519&mesg_id=2232519

I don't look good in orange...

[Blackhatjack]

21. Prediction: Huge Faceoff between SCOTUS and Congress....

...you will know just how much trouble we are in when the SCOTUS rules the elimination of the writ of habeas corpus is unconstitutional, and the Congress just ignores them, and the Executive Branch ignores enforcement of their decision.

It will likely happen, and resolution of the issue will determine whether we retain a three branch government with separation of powers.

The power of the Judicial Branch, and the SCOTUS, has always resided in its role as the final authority in interpreting our Constitution. It has no enforcement power without acknowledgement of its standing, and that will be the rub.

[KansDem]

23. No, this comes to the very heart and soul of what America stands for

This isn't some pork-barrel spending bill you may or may not agree with. This defines America: we either maintain our identity as a nation who values freedom and human dignity, or we succumb to the practices of rank third-world dictatorships.

I don't see how anyone could possibly justify torture.

[Jawja]

25. I've been wondering the same thing since

I have been reading the text of the bill and the military courts and punishment guidelines are exclusively written for "alien unlawful enemy combatants," as defined in the bill and meaning non-American citizens at war with the United States who are not acting on behalf any established state or militia. That clearly defines international terrorist groups.

However, as the Military Commission Act of 2006 is written for the detainment and trial of alien international terrorists at war with the United States, I am NOT in agreement that they should NOT fall under the guidelines of the Geneva Conventions (which the legislation clearly states; I am NOT in agreement that they should be detained in gulags and sent to trial in military tribunals. I am against this because I am against the premise of the "War on Terror" in general and I am all for using international cooperation to apprehend terrorists as criminals and extradicting them into the U.S. for legal trial and sentencing.

There is no NEED for this bullshit unending "war on terror" nor the gulags, tribunals, dismissing the Geneva Conventions, etc.

on edit: what concerns me is the fact that we have a criminal government pushing to go down this road, a rubberstamp Congress in compliance, and a silent public willing to accept the bullshit.

[Daphne08]

26. I get what you're saying, but in all seriousness, I'm wondering

how long it will be before some future Executive decides that this "new" law needs to be used against certain American citizens.

[kentuck]

29. Probably sooner than we think...

But will it be a Democratic President with the same powers? Or a Republican President?

[kestrel91316]

30. Bush will just "decide" to interpret and enforce the law that way.....

and who's to stop him???

[QuestionAll...]

27. I'm wondering what will be next

in this great disintegration.
the bar keeps getting higher and higher, or is it lower and lower?

what next because no way this is going to end, there is much more to come. The waters have been tested over these last 6 years, and apparently, anything goes, nothing is sacred.

[ChiciB1]

32. And Elections Are Still Going To Be Stolen In November!!

I am now beginning to think that Cruella is going to be elected somehow!!!!

Democracy is DEAD!!!

[QuestionAll...]

36. there will probably be massive

reports of voting machine irregularities and fixings by the mess media. it will be planned chaos, of course.
o my! what are we to do! we can't trust the machines! investigations please! stop the presses. things should remain the same until we sort this out with an 'investigation'.

and at the pace of the destruction of the american people's ideals, by 08 there won't be no fuggin' elections at all because 'I', the Bush, bleeves it's a terrorist tool to undermine his plan on freedomizing/sodomizing the world, and dammit he evidently has the power to pull shit like this off.

[JustFiveMoreMinutes]

28. Perspectives & Points Of View

For those groups who have fought in the past for both their civil and Constitutional rights (and those who continue to fight today), probably have quite a different perspective on this bill.

Let's take the gay community right now since it seems to be the 'most important issue today'.

Backing up a few years, some hate-individual was on trial for killing a gay man and they were going after 1st degree murder and death sentence. One of these great news' polls asked the question, Is killing a gay person deserving of the death penalty. There was 98% who said YES, 2% said NO. This was looked upon by the MSM as proof that gays are being protected.

Now let's look at it differently. You're a gay person sitting in a football stadium holding 100,000 people. Of those in the stadium with you, 2% of them think it's okay to kill you with little repercussion, 2,000 individuals in relative close proximity to you... TWO THOUSAND. Does it seem that the percentages really give a gay person comfort?

Let's now look at 9/11 where 3,000 innocent people were killed in the name of HATE, but we called it terror. Percentage wise, that is a very small percentage of the total population of the US. When a gay group is brutalized/vandalized, when gay people are killed for the sake of being gay, it too is a small percentage of the total US Gay population, but it is relatively the same percentage that died on 9/11. However, the US wont even recognize it as a HATE crime, when in the same breath they talk about TERROR to the US. If it's 'not happening to me, it doesn't exist' it seems.

Enemy combatant, open interpretation, open to this and future administrations. Activist groups (even PETA?) who can be considered a POSSIBLE TERROR threat to the general (christian, white, big business) US public, can they be pointed at and detained? Technically, yes. Will they? We'll never know until it happens.

When it happens, it will be too late. Frog soup, I think is the term for it, get us used to it a little by little, we never realize we're in deep boiling water until it's way too late.

The battle should be raged when there are larger numbers of independent thinkers and not wait until the world is filled with lemmings.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

31. We can trust politicians to do the right thing. Can't we?

[Benhurst]

34. As Bush so famously said, "Who cares what you think?"

Besides, once The Leader starts his attack, the mob will fall in behind him and "support our troops."

[kpete]

38. WE ARE NOT OVER-REACTING

WE ARE UNDER-REACTING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gregorian]

39. Right. And freedom is just another word for WATERBOARDING.

Hey, if you have nothing to hide, then spying is no big deal.
Hey, if you aren't a terrorist, torture is acceptable.

I think people don't get it. This country is the pinnacle of civil rights and justice.

It's about the least of us. It's about that guy in chains who is innocent. It's about keeping people like George Bush from keeping his power. And abusing power.

But it seems that so many Americans have been lulled into a stupor by the ease of living. Drive, shop, breed. It's all so easy. We're consumers. Not producers. And it's easy. But we traded off ease for dependency. And the corporations know that.

It's supposed to be a democracy. And that is the bottom line. I doubt many Americans even know this debate is going on today. I know they don't. They're shopping. They're busy.

That's it for me. I'm all drained. I've said everything I ever had to say, on this forum. I've called my Senators.

Will we be a democracy tomorrow? It's pretty hard to lose habeus corpus and still be a free country.

[hootinholler]

40. Um, NO! n/t

[DemReadingDU]

41. The spirits of our forefathers

surely are rising up out of their graves

[rhiannon55]

46. I hope they haunt the White House and the Halls of Congress

relentlessly until all the cretins who threw away our rights this week are reduced to quivering pools of nasty green protoplasm....:hide:

[indepat]

43. Yeah, what's so scary about giving total power to one man, a man of God,

divinely inspired and guided by God Almighty on a personal basis. Besides, W has never done or asked for anything unseasonable, has never let us down, is fiscally responsible, is calm and reasoned, has never done anything rash or unreasonable or unlawful, or unconstitutional, so there's really no problem, right?

Edited: down substituted for done.

[kentuck]

44. Absolutely!

Why would anyone doubt his good intentions? Has he ever made a bad decision? Why would anyone think he would start now?

[mhatrw]

45. Does ANYBODY in this country give a shit about our Bill of Rights?

crickets