Karl, is that you?

[kitkat65]

Probably not, but I bet he'd be utterly delighted by the amount of posts denouncing the Dems who voted for this torture bill.

If the current administration has been good at anything it's been to divide and conquer. And this bill, put forward right before elections, stands to divide us.

People here are angrily announcing they won't vote for their Dem candidate because they voted yes. And the options are . . . ? Republican? Third party? Don't vote at all?

Fine, don't vote for your Democratic candidate but ask yourself this: Are you being played?

Karl, is that you?

[meganmonkey]

1. Fuck Karl Rove

Getting played? How about getting tortured? How about getting thrown in jail indefinitely?

This is not a political game. This is reality. People are suffering. Maybe if more people around here got off their fucking computers and spent time with real people instead of armchair fucking activists online they might have a fucking clue.

Yes, I am snippy, and yes, it isn't fair to take it out on you but this is about SO MUCH MORE than Karl fucking Rove and the political-maneuvering BULLSHIT they are trying to pass off as democracy.

:cry:

[Solly Mack]

6. What MM said

This goes way beyond political parties and strategies and games

and name-calling

[kitkat65]

7. Actually, it IS a game to people like Rove.

They have no conscience and everything they do is for political gain.

Do you really think they don't know how disgusted liberals would be at the thought of legislating torture? Do you really think the Republican smear machine wouldn't refrain from labeling a Dem candidate soft on homeland security the minute they vote against the bill?

I'm disgusted that this kind of bill is even on the table but look at the bigger picture.

Don't fall for it. Don't let them divide us.

[meganmonkey]

11. Oh, I am already so far divided

I don't know if there is a way back.

And believe me, it has NOTHING to do with Karl Rove. And everything to do with the Dems themselves.

And the suffering people who deserve some fucking representation.

[kitkat65]

14. You're already divided?

Don't you get it? That's exactly what Karl's counting on.

You are being played.

[meganmonkey]

16. You think I am being played

I think you are being played.

All this 'playing' going on, why aren't any of us having fun?

Where is democracy? I won't apologize for putting principle over party. Again - this isn't about Karl Rove or elections. It is much more serious than that. Don't you get it? We have people on the board defending their Dem reps for voting for the death of democracy, and you think I'm getting played? *shakes-head-in-disbelief*

[Solly Mack]

19. Still standing with MM

I predicted prior to this vote that some people will need to justify a vote for torture

and they are

it's exactly like wrapping yourself in the flag...

[meganmonkey]

23. Thanks Solly

:hi:

I am glad I am not the only one who sees it that way.

I feel like I am losing my mind on this board today.

[Solly Mack]

25. I'm surprisingly calm. For the last almost 3 weeks I wasn't

Post after post screaming out against this outrage.

Now? What I suspected would happen is happening and I'm far more calm than I thought I would be.

You can't save those who refuse to be saved. America is suffering from collective psychosis. Leaving them to their denial is tempting...except, we all pay for that denial.

[kitkat65]

22. The death of our democracy has been going on for quite some time now

And which of the two major parties have been in charge?

So, you're willing to turn your back on a Dem candidate for this one vote . . . brought before Congress . . . less than six weeks before the election.

I think the Karl's the one having all the fun.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

13. We're just doing exactly what they want....

n/t

[hootinholler]

12. No thanks,

But I won't stand in your way.

Oh, it's deadly serious IMO.

-Hoot

[Marr]

2. Yeah, guess I should just hold my nose and support people who

put political gamesmanship above simply human decency.

Sorry, but torture and the suspension of Habeas Corpus aren't some silly wedge issues. You're talking about the establishment of a dictatorship. Anyone who stands for that doesn't deserve my support, and I don't care what fucking letter they put after their name.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

18. that makes no sense.

If republicans gain retain control of congress , it isn't the dems who didn't get elected who pay. It's THE PEOPLE ARE BEING TORTURED WHO WILL PAY> IT"S THE PEOPLE WHO WILL BE DYING IN IRAQ WHO WILL PAY.

You do not oppose torture. You say you do but you don't.

[kitkat65]

15. Yes, that is the Karl game plan, isn't it? Gamesmanship over decency?

Although in Karl's case there's no gamesmanship, just dirty tricks.

And your reaction is tear a Dem a new one.

We're being played.

[bowens43]

17. Wow.

I am amazed. So here's what you're saying. You are opposed to torture. In order to punish a Dem who voted for this bill you are willing to help ensure that the party that OVERWHELMINGLY supports, not only this torture bill but others that were far worse, continues to control what bills come to the floor.

The truth is , you are not really opposed to torture. If you were, you would do everything you can to ensure that the party that OVERWHELMINGLY voted against this bill would gain control of congress.

Your self-righteousness will help to bring about the very things you claim to be against.

It's utter stupidity to say that you oppose torture and then to actively work to empower the party that supports torture.

[Marr]

21. You can call me stupid all you like.

I think it's stupid to vote for people who roll over and tacitly endorse this sort of policy. I would never vote for anyone who voted yes on this torture bill, and the more I think about it, the more I think I wouldn't vote for anyone who refused to filibuster the damn thing, either.

[Hubert Flottz]

3. Be careful you'll troll out some trolls!

This is right up Karl's alley!

[leftofthedial]

4. so you think we should vote for advocates of torture?

just because they have a "D" by their name?

Go team! Win the big one!

[sandnsea]

8. Of course it's Karl

I thought everybody understood that's why this bill was put on the floor now.

[Jacobin]

9. A true leader would turn this stuff into a shit storm that would

drive the RW out of power for 100 years, with all the ammunition we've been given.

I, for one, am tired of sniviling suggestions that surrender is the way to victory.

Fuck that. Corporatist Demcoratic Whores, like Lieberman and the others who voted to codify torture and suspension of the writ should be at the HAGUE and not in congress.

I don't give a rats ass if it gives Rove an orgasm. Its the goddamned truth

[kerry-is-my-prez]

10. Yep- it's all part of the plan - just like the pre-election Iraq war vote

Force the Dems into something where they're either damned if they do or damned if they don't. Either way - they either have the centrists pissed at them or the left pissed. They get fewer contributions, fewer campaign workers, fewer votes.

[The Deacon]

20. People, People

What the Republican Congress giveth, the Democratic Congress can taketh away - but first we need a Democratic Congress. If they don't vote for this Bill (which, by the way, is almost guaranteed to be rejected by the Courts) they open themselves to charges of being "Soft on Terror." THAT is the Rove Plan - put out some piece of outrageous bullshit, have the Democrats vote against it, play the "Soft on Terror" card. He, of all people, knows what lies in wait for him & his ilk if the Democrats take both Houses next month - long, hot showers where you don't dare drop the soap. Patience - Harry Reid & Nancy Pelosi are smart enough to beat these thugs at their own game.

[tblue]

31. That's how I see it. And now that the hideous bill has passed

and a$$wipe will sign it into law, the goal of everyone who absolutely opposes torture has to be to have it overturned. If you're truly appalled and enraged, you won't allow this to stand. You won't stop until it is dead and buried.

Is this enough to keep you going?



http://rawstory.com/showoutarticle.php?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidcorn.com%2Farchives%2F2006%2F09%2Fthis_is_what_wa.php

[StellaBlue]

24. I plan to vote straight-ticket Democrat

BUT I think they are all fucking cowards and corporate whores. Just better than the GOP. Read some Howard Zinn!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's ALL A SHAM. Always has been.

[Warren Stupidity]

35. Exactly right.

And anyone who thinks that the gutless wonders who run our party, the toady whores to the corporate machine, that these asshats will suddenly develop spine should they accidentally fall into majority status this January, is seriously deluded. Then what will your explanation be? What will your sorry excuse for supporting them be?

Oh I will vote Democratic in november, again, as always. But I will be voting for the other party of corporate toady war criminals and I will expect little or nothing good in return.

This will only be settled in the streets. I am as uncomfortable with that reality as the rest of you. I have kids. mortgages, tuition, the whole nine yards. This ain't the sixties and I ain't 20. This is the reality, it is the cards we have been dealt.

[file83]

38. That'd be a good bumper sticker: Straight-Ticket Democrat '06

[mentalsolstice]

26. I Think I'm Going To Be Sick

My congressman, a democrat, voted "yes". I'm extremely surprised, as he's not even in a close race to hang onto his seat, he's a shoo-in. Until today, he was the one bright blue spot in our state, where our governor, both of our senators and most of our reps. are very conservative repubs. In Nov. I guess I'll have to hold my nose to re-elect him, I have no other choice...

Pity those that live in a district where our Dem. congress(wo)man voted for this stinker...it is especially sickening to us.

[kitkat65]

27. Well, if Dems gain control of Congress we should be fighting

for more than just keeping the control but what that control can change. Like this torture bill for one. I just hope that people won't become complacent and think the things we've been angry about are just going to go away.

[tblue]

33. Who is it?

[mentalsolstice]

39. Artur Davis

I can't think of one good reason why he would vote "yes" for this...as I said earlier, he's pretty much unopposed. Not that would make a difference for me, but here in AL it has been hard for Dems to hang on if they have strong repub opposition. If he were scratching and clawing to keep his seat with largely redneck constituancy...I'd still be heartsick, but I might have understood it a little better.

[Hawkowl]

28. Wrong game

I think you are being played along with some of the dem leaders. All we hear from the MSM is that the public doesn't know what dems stand for. Just a babbling mob of watered down republicans. A bunch of hand wringing wimps that don't have what it takes to keep America safe. Here was a perfect issue to make a stand and tell America what dems believe in: the CONSTITUTION. And they folded with barely a whimper.

This is why we lose elections. The average person turns on the news and sees only weak democrats and strong republicans. They've been picking strong every time. If dems aren't even strong enough to take on the rethuglicans, how can they defeat Al Qaeda?

This is a sociological law of nature. If you observe primates in the wild, it is the loud, screaming, mean sons of bitches that are in charge. The diplomatic, go along to get along monkeys always settle for second best.

This is why YOU are being played. Rove isn't dividing and conquering. He's just beating his chest and throwing monkey shit at you. You've just convinced yourself that you like it.

[Fleshdancer]

29. If I'm being played...

What about the Democrats who claim to share my Democratic values and then turns around and votes for torture? Are we not being played by them? I believe most issues have various shades of grey but not this one. A politician can not justify acts against humanity and receive my support at the same time regardless of what party he or she belongs to.

If this makes Karl Rove all warm and fuzzy inside then so be it. The Democrats who vote for this are the ones responsible for the consequences of their actions, not me. From where I'm sitting, choosing between a Democrat who votes for this and a Republican is not a choice. It's an insult to my intelligence.

[Straight Shooter]

30. Bend like a willow or fall like an oak

Vote Dem, regardless. Think of John Conyers and investigations. I can't take 6 more years of Republican maliciousness and malevolence.

So hold back on your vote for a Dem, then. We won't know who to blame for the loss of this country. It will be a consortium of pissed-off Dems, ugly Repubs, and election fraud and we're worse off than ever. Think of bush appointing another Supreme Court justice. Makes you want to shrivel up inside, doesn't it?

You know what makes Repubs happy? No matter what, they're in agreement when it comes down to the wire, while the Dems bicker over ethics and morality, and yet we can undo what has been done if we can just hold our noses one more time. If we lose, it's over, baby.

Bend like a willow or fall like an oak. It's your choice. We can't rebuild what we can't claim back from the Torture Party.

Strength in numbers. United we stand.

[seabeyond]

32. i dont get it. this is ALL repug. and bad for repug. and we give repug

an out? to blame the dem? that is STUPID

[patrioticliberal]

34. Oh, so now we support Karl Rove if we criticize Dems?

NEVER CRITICIZE!

FOLLOW THE HERD!

SUPPORT TORTURE *GULP*

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

36. Did Karl "play" the Dems that voted for torture?

Seems like they wouldn't have had to worry about garnering Dem votes if they had voted against it.

[scarletwoman]

37. WE'RE not the ones being "played"!

"Our" Dems had a very simple task -- listen to the voices of the engaged and involved citizens who were actually paying attention and who were passionately begging them to not to vote for this bill. Or ignore the people who really cared, and vote based on some kind of crass politcal calculation of not "appearing weak on terror".

WE are not the ones who have been played! It's every fraidy-cat spineless wimp who worried more about their electoral chances than the fucking SOUL of our Nation who's been played!

I don't give a rip what anyone does at this point. Vote or not vote -- it's not going to make any difference, it's too fucking late. The America we thought we lived in is dead -- and members of "our" party have been complicit in the murder.

sw

[kitkat65]

40. Ah, yes, let's all roll over and play dead. That'll teach 'em!

You all claim to be so disgusted by this bill and rightly so but you'd still rather piss on the dem than focus on the bigger picture and look towards the future.

The republican MAJORITY voted this fucking bill in. If the dems had the MAJORITY it would be a moot point, wouldn't it?

But somehow it's all the dems fault for not having the MAJORITY. And, you'd rather call the dems spineless instead of calling the Republicans spineless for not standing up to the executive branch and defending the constitution, which is supposed to be their fucking job.

And by perpetuating the old (and untrue) "democrats are spineless" meme instead challenging that thought by changing the discourse and placing the blame where it belongs, you have become completely useless for bringing about change. So either you're a troll, or you need to grow a pair.

The reality of the situation is that nothing is going to change unless the dems have the majority. And until that happens we will continue to be in Iraq, our liberties will be whittled away, we will still be vulnerable to attack, and we will never be able to hold hearings to flush out the crooks.

So, go ahead and claim your moral superiority by not voting for the dems, but you're going to high road us all out of any chance for change.

[Beelzebud]

41. You're right. We should blindly follow as they vote against our ideals.