Conversation with my father (ten minutes ago on the phone)

[StellaBlue]

Father: "Well... what else do you know today?"

Stella: "Not much, except I am pissed off that we now live in a country that condones torture... other than that... meh..."

Father: "Don't you want to be able to catch the terrorists? I think this is right."

Stella: "Of course, but by overturning the Constitution, we are no better than the terrorists, so what exactly are we fighting them for? They've won now."

Father: "Do you just want to let them kill innocent people, and then... they get a bunch of 'rights' and are treated all nice, and they're not even US citizens? You're just wrong on this."

Stella: "I think they should get a fair trial. Otherwise, how do we know they're even terrorists?"

Father: "But we're at war. You don't understand."

Stella: "No, I do understand. And we're NOT at war. They can call it that all they like, but we're not at war. Do YOU feel like we're at war? Have YOU been asked to sacrifice anything? Because I don't feel like I'M at war, that I'VE been asked to sacrifice anything - except my civil liberties. This is NOT a 'time of war'. I am not having any problems getting all the sugar and bacon I want. These people, the terrorists, are criminals; they are not a government, they don't have an army, hence we can't have a WAR on them. They're CRIMINALS. They should be tried."

Father: "Well, that's just your, liberal view. And you're entitled to it."

Stella: "Not anymore. Now I'm an 'enemy combantant' and I can be interned indefinitely without trial at the whim of your president. How do you like that? I don't want to live in a country like that. I don't understand how anyone else can. Do you think that I ought to be sent to Gitmo? Because, following your logic, and your president's, I might end up there."

Father: "Well, that's just you're liberal brainwashing talking... liberal, liberal, liberal. Feel sorry for the terrorists, give them a bunch of 'rights'..."

I have lost all hope for humanity.

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we all may die.

[AX10]

1. Sorry to hear that.

[survivor999]

2. I wish I took notes when I talk to my dad.

I'd remember more about our conversations! :)

[flobee1]

12. Well, that's just you're liberal brainwashing talking

I've noticed the same attitude on Seder and Randi's shows. They dont get it because they feel it doesnt concern them. They dont get that It does in a very bad way. We, as of today, can no longer dissent without thinking that someone may consider you an "enemy"
That is not freedom!
The constitution has just been made irrelivant

[Swamp Rat]

3. .

:hug:

[ShortnFiery]

4. My older brother is brainwashed that way ...

they are not reachable. Enjoy them and love them for the good things ... don't talk politics. :(

Best Wishes for I come from a family chock full of Right Wingers. I feel your pain. Really! :hi:

[pinerow]

5. I posted this in another thread...

I fucking surrender...!!!!

I've fought the good fight, but one can only fight so long...therefore I hereby, officially give up...I cannot fight any longer...It's not only because of this administration, but because of the people who voted, and continue to vote, for the idiots in power...I cannot forgive my government, and I will not forgive my neighbors who continuously vote these jackanapes in to office.

I GIVE UP...I'M DONE...STICK A FORK IN ME... :wtf:

[bullimiami]

6. Father, You are a dumbass. I hope you dont live to regret your stupidity.

[MisoWeaver]

7. Does anyone have a list of things thatr are to be allowed?

I mean, are we talking Iron Madens here?

[wtmusic]

8. I hear you Stella

Who is brainwashed? My God, what have we come to.

[texanwitch]

9. I had the same talks with my sister and her husband last month at my

Father's birthday party.

Some folks are just brainwashed, the only thing that will change them is when they or someone they know will be arrested and tortured.

[Hav]

10. .

Seriously? This was your father? I really feel sorry for you. He's the last one who should be talking about being brainwashed.

[Matariki]

11. Great. Throwing out the Geneva Convention is being 'nice' to terrorists

Your father hasn't thought this through. You should ask him if he realizes the ramifications of ignoring the Geneva Convention. But I'm sure he has an answer - or a snappy comeback about your liberal brain-washing.

You shouldn't talk to him about politics probably.

[StellaBlue]

17. He won't even know what the Geneva Convention is

except that it's something from that stupid UN that shouldn't trump our domestic laws, some kind of socialist European crap

All the people who think like this should find themselves at the sharp end of their own reasoning. Until then, they will. never. get. it.

This is the same man who thinks I am going to hell and that he's failed as a father because I am an atheist. :eyes:

I am going to stop talking politics with him, I guess. And, beyond the handful of close relatives I genuinely love, stop talking to apologists entirely. Then move to Canada. As soon as possible.

[cornermouse]

22. According to Lou Dobbs, Canada may not be far enough this time.

You might want to consider crossing the ocean to the old world or someplace like Australia.

[StellaBlue]

24. Yeah

I lived in England from Sept. 21, 2001 til June 12, 2005. Came back only because my English partner sent me home on a 'visit' and then broke up with me - therefore I could not legally re-enter the UK (I was due to get the equivalent of a green card six months later and could've then stayed regardless of my relationship with him); I lost my house, pets, job, surrogate family, friends, etc.

I did NOT want to return to the USA. And not my nightmares are coming true here. I would go back to the UK if I could. Not perfect at all, and run by Bush-enabling appeasers, but at least the people there have some common sense. It was valhalla.

[leesa]

38. But it IS our law. We have to follow it by US law.

[sandnsea]

13. It's the people

See, that's what I said earlier today. Why get mad at Democrats in red pockets when they're only representing what their constituents believe. We aren't getting through to them, we have to try harder.

[never_get_over_it]

25. With all due respect that is complete BULL SHIT

first of all before the invasion of Iraq I heard Senators say that they were getting calls like crazy and the huge majority were against invading Iraq -and MANY OF THEM VOTED THAT WAY ANYWAY

and secondly if the majority thought it would be a good idea to go back to slavery do you think the poor little Democratic Reps in the red states should go along with it...for the love of CHRIST voting yes to this is immoral and STUPID because torture doesn't work, it subjects or soldiers to the same treatment and it is FUCKING BARBARIC....

stop apologizing for these FUCKING LOSERS!!!!

[sandnsea]

26. Wow

You just assume because you were calling for a vote to go a particular way - that everybody was. It wasn't true with the Iraq vote and it likely isn't true with this vote. I don't know whether Nelson or Landrieu or Davis are voting against their conscience, they may well think exactly the way the rest of the people in their states think. But changing minds is a bottom up process and we just aren't doing the footwork.

Oh, and just who are the people the rest of this thread is referring to??? Constituents - just like you.

[never_get_over_it]

27. No - I completely remember

it being reported that the calls against the Iraq War Resolution FAR outnumbered the calls for...

BUT that really isn't my point. My point is even if their constituents think that it is ok for us to torture it is NOT and the politicians should have voted that way and then explained why their vote was correct.

I don't blame the constituents I blame the person casting the vote. Torture is immoral and doesn't work.

I understand completely your point that we have work to do - I just don't think this vote falls into that category - WAY TOO IMPORTANT - and I'm tired of excuses for these idiot politicians

[sandnsea]

28. Graham voted against it

And others report that Nelson's office was a regurgitation of talking points. So I don't know exactly what you're talking about there. I also think that those on the left, particularly the far left, just don't have the ability to hear what the rest of the country is hearing. If you can't understand the way someone else is thinking, you can't argue with their ideas.

I would bet Nelson of Nebraska, for instance, truly believes we aren't going to be torturing. It's possible he just doesns't see loud music, stress positions and extreme temperatures as torture because there will be no lasting damage from it. I am betting that's what these Dem torture voters believe whole-heartedly. Now - what's the answer to that?? Another march? I just don't think so.

We have got to recognize that we have real work to do, we have an entire nation that needs a serious attitude adjustment - a lot of politicians included. That's why I think ranting against the Democrats who largely voted against this bill is a waste of time. We just aren't changing minds and mobilizing action. I remember that person who had the sister being removed from life support in Texas - she said the right-to-lifers can get mobilized in 24 hours. Lawyers, talk radio, pickters, letters, the whole shebang. And they know just what to say to be heard too. That's what I'm talking about and we just aren't there yet.

[momophile]

14. sounds exactly like my parents...

I just wish I could articulate my frustration as well as you did. Good job, even if it was lost.

[undeterred]

15. Isn't it frustrating when someone you know is brainwashed

accuses you of being brainwashed? And you ask yourself, "am I BRAINWASHED?" And you answer yourself hell, no, I have the truth.

I don't like talking to the BRAINWASHED people of this country.

[CelticWinter]

16. My mom is the same way

and we have had many discussions almost identical to yours *sigh

[NC_Nurse]

18. My dad is just like this.

Whenever we visit, he's got the fox news channel on ALL day in the living room. He loves to quote Bill O'Reilly and he loves to try to goad me into an argument.
I try really hard to just refuse to bite because there is NO winning - he is Mr. Talking Points!
I feel your pain. :(

[sarcasmo]

23. " The Best way to deal with your Mother is to not deal with her at all"

This was a quote from my Grandmother about my Mother and it can apply to anyone.

[dave502d]

19. The thing i see hear is.

StellaBlue you are a liberal dem with a dad that isn't.
I think thats a big plus for us.Thank you for your letter.

[sweetheart]

20. In contrast

I too just spoke to my father on the phone.

Father: "I just don't get it, this republican just came out and told me that the
economy has never been doing as well in his lifetime. What do i say to that? When
they come out with stuff like that i don't know what to say. They've got us framed,
and we're always supposed to be nice."

sh: "Someone said similarly to me recently that she agreed with bush that there was
a terrorist threat. I told her that i did not dispute this, rather, that killing
100,000 civilians was a strange way to fight terrorism. They killed about 3000 people
in 9/11 and we've murdered 100,000 in return; how many is enough; are YOU ready to go
die there?"

Father: "That's the point, i coulda brought up his grandson and whether he would
willingly send him off to war, but its not nice and i won't do that."

sh: "What kind of friend needs that kind of coddling?"

Father: "Well, i've known him my whole life, and his wife and kids are staunch democrats,
and only he goes on these long tyrades, and he's *so* angry. I'm sure his wife would
have been happier if i had some better comebacks."

sh: "What can ya do. These people are bonkers."

Father: "Yes, 'bonkers', that's a good word for them."

[maxsolomon]

21. your Dad won't be so happy when President Chomsky gets to use these rules

the worm will have turned then.

yes, i am delusional :crazy:

[MikeH]

29. Very sorry to hear that

It must be especially hard when somebody very close to you has that attitude.:hug:

I have family members who voted for * in 2000, and who, at least initially, did not have any serious problem with *'s action in Iraq. We have avoided talking about politics since; I don't know if they still feel * is OK (if not necessarily wonderful), or if they have since had some serious second thoughts about him. In fact some of my family members now live in Ohio, the main battleground state in 2004.

I had a recent get-together with my family, and the subject of politics very fortunately did not come up (or at least not when I was present). I would want to avoid unpleasantness with them, and I think they feel that way too.

I did end a long time friendship last year after my friend voted for * in 2004, and seeing how * has gone from bad to worse, I do not regret doing so. I was very bothered that my friend did not have serious second thoughts about * in 2004, and that he felt our actions in Iraq were the right thing for us to do. He was always a fundamentalist Christian, but I never thought of him as fitting the worst stereotypes of people of that persuasion. However by voting for * a second time, as far as I am concerned he might just as well be in league with the extremist agenda of the religious right.

I was anxious that * would be bad for the nation in 2000, but I had no idea that he was going to be that bad. It is very painful that people I know voted for him, and did not have serious problems with him.

[mmonk]

30. They can't view it as their rights being taken away

because it's never been presented to them in that way.

[EFerrari]

31. Why do conservatives think we can "give rights" to people?

Don't they believe in inalienable rights or that all men were created equal?

How do you "give" somone human rights? Aren't people BORN with those?

[bullwinkle428]

32. My late father, a Korean War vet, would have supported me 100%

and said flat out that he didn't spend those years in uniform defending this country so that it would degenerate into what we're seeing here today. I consider myself very fortunate to have been brought up in this kind of family environment...he's most responsible for shaping the views I have today.

[zulchzulu]

33. Try this as a phone call to your dad

Father: Hello?

You: (whispering and scared) Dad... I can't talk long... I found this cell phone... wow.... I'm calling from a dark cell... I have no idea where I am.... there are rats... these people came into my house.... and arrested me.... I asked why... they laughed... tied me up... threw me into a truck... bound and gagged... I asked for a lawyer... they laughed... not allowed...

Father: Honey, are you...

You: Dad, I have to go.... goodbye.... I will probably never see you again... I have no idea where I am.... don't know why I am here... and I can't get a lawyer.... they won't tell me what I did... I can't be- (phone disconnects)

Father: Hello? Hello? Are you there?

[Horse with no Name]

34. I am sorry.

I truly am, but as you know, I live in this liberal bastion where your Dad is. I don't know what to do anymore. But I know this.
I have decided to continue my education and get my Advanced Practitioner license. I am returning to school in January. That will make me more valuable to any country should I find that this one isn't fixable.
That is all that I can do and what I would suggest to anyone else.
Stay here. Fight the good fight. If we lose, and we may, research what careers are in demand in the country of your choice and figure out how to achieve it.

[Armstead]

35. Ask him why he is being such a coward.

This is caving in to fear. Ask him why he is so afraid. Why has he given up on America so easily?

Ask your father why he doesn't have faith in the existing American system of justice and military conduct.

It's not a matter of "liberal." It's a basic trust in Amrerica and enough courage to be able to fight without giving up our principles.

[OnionPatch]

36. If my father were still alive

I'm about 99.99% sure he would have said something similar. It's heartbreaking, but some people will just never get it. :(

[leesa]

37. Why on earth does he think this will catch terrorists? Is he so simple

he doesn't realize anyone tortured confesses to anything?

[uppityperson]

39. I love my father; "I am so angry, how could they even think of votingfor

this? What will this do for our soldiers who are captured? What about checks and balances? How the hell can they do this?"

[Emit]

40. Sounds like me and my dad. n/t