MSNBC: The smart politics of the detainee vote helps democrats big time

[ECH1969]

Did adroit Democratic candidates take away one of the GOP's best issues?

Brown, the Democrats’ Senate candidate in Ohio against Republican Sen. Mike DeWine, led all House Democrats in 2005 in the percentage of votes in which he opposed the president: 93.5 percent, according to Congressional Quarterly.

Brown is now appealing to voters beyond his own strongly Democratic district and needs to win over all Ohio voters since he’s in a tight race with DeWine. Brown explained his vote this way in an interview with MSNBC.com Thursday: "Unlike Mike DeWine, I'm willing to stand up to my party when they're wrong."

He said the detainees "are not soldiers, not combatants representing a government, these are terrorists."

He told reporters, “We’ve polled this extensively” and he argued that detainees and tribunals “are secondary issues to most people.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15049251/
-------------------------------------------

Winning is everything remember that.

[Lerkfish]

1. they didn't poll me, obviously

[OhioChick]

3. Me, neither. n/t

[ECH1969]

4. I didn't get a call

[stuartrida]

2. I don't agree with Brown on this, but I sure hope he beats Dewine.

Dewine is horrible.

[ECH1969]

5. yup

[meganmonkey]

6. Aaaaah! This is not a game!

People are dying!

This country is SICK SICK SICK!!!

The politicians are playing a fucking manipulation game with PEOPLE'S LIVES and THE FUTURE OF OUR FUCKING DEMOCKRACY!

Oh I could just weep..

:cry:

(Hey ECH, I'm not yelling at you man - just at the people who run our government and our media. so ya know)

[kerry-is-my-prez]

9. It may not be a game but we've gotta win - that's the best revenge.

n/t

[meganmonkey]

14. You're proving my point

This isn't about 'winning' and 'revenge' - this is abut PEOPLE DYING AND BEING TORTURED. This is about Americans being detained indefinitely with no rights.

I feel like I am in the fucking twilight zone!

:cry:

[paulk]

17. you tell me what can be done about it

without winning first...

[meganmonkey]

18. Winning what?

Do you hear yourself? WINNING WHAT?

This is what I'm gonna do about it:

Over 100 cities have protests planned already.

Announcing a Day of Mass Resistance:

OCTOBER 5, 2006

BRING THIS TO A HALT!

YOUR GOVERNMENT, on the basis of outrageous lies, is waging a murderous and utterly illegitimate war in Iraq, with other countries in their sights.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is openly torturing people, and justifying it.

YOUR GOVERNMENT puts people in jail on the merest suspicion, refusing them lawyers, and either holding them indefinitely or deporting them in the dead of night.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving each day closer to a theocracy, where a narrow and hateful brand of Christian fundamentalism will rule.

YOUR GOVERNMENT suppresses the science that doesn't fit its religious, political and economic agenda, forcing present and future generations to pay a terrible price.

YOUR GOVERNMENT is moving to deny women here, and all over the world, the right to birth control and abortion.

YOUR GOVERNMENT enforces a culture of greed, bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.

People look at all this and think of Hitler - and they are right to do so. The Bush regime is setting out to radically remake society very quickly, in a fascist way, and for generations to come.

We must act now; the future is in the balance.

Millions and millions are deeply disturbed and outraged by this. They recognize the need for a vehicle to express this outrage, yet they cannot find it; politics as usual cannot meet the enormity of the challenge, and people sense this. There is not going to be some magical "pendulum swing." People who steal elections and believe they're on a "mission from God" will not go without a fight. There is not going to be some savior from the Democratic Party. This whole idea of putting our hopes and energies into "leaders" who tell us to seek common ground with fascists and religious fanatics is proving every day to be a disaster, and actually serves to demobilize people.

But silence and paralysis are NOT acceptable. That which you will not resist and mobilize to stop, you will learn - or be forced - to accept. There is no escaping it: the whole disastrous course of this Bush regime must be STOPPED. And we must take the responsibility to do it. And there is a way. We are talking about something on a scale that can really make a huge change in this country and in the world. We need more than fighting Bush's outrages one at a time, constantly losing ground to the whole onslaught. We must, and can, aim to create a political situation where the Bush regime's program is repudiated, where Bush himself is driven from office, and where the whole direction he has been taking society is reversed. We, in our millions, must and can take responsibility to change the course of history. Acting in this way, we join with and give support and heart to people all over the globe who so urgently need and want this regime to be stopped.

This will not be easy. If we speak the truth, they will try to silence us. If we act, they will try to stop us. But we speak for the majority, here and around the world, and as we get this going we are going to reach out to the people who have been so badly fooled by Bush and we are NOT going to stop. The point is this: history is full of examples where people who had right on their side fought against tremendous odds and were victorious. And it is also full of examples of people passively hoping to wait it out, only to get swallowed up by a horror beyond what they ever imagined.

The future is unwritten. WHICH ONE WE GET IS UP TO US.

http://www.worldcantwait.org/

[paulk]

29. actually, instead of "your government"

my object is to blame the Republicans for the events you write of, because, indeed, they hold the lion's share of the blame.

And I will still place my faith in the electoral process rather than, like you, political rallies that blame all sides and /or ranting and raving on anonymous internet discussion boards...


-------------------


oh, and yes, I hear myself, meganmonkey.

[meganmonkey]

41. Strawmen and erroneous assumptions

You go on voting for people who have legitimized torture and the breakdown of our constitution, and encouraging others to vote for them too. And when the descent into fascism becomes so obvious that you can no longer pretend it isn't happening, you have no right to wonder how we got there, because you helped it happen. You are responsible.

And you can keep on voting and wonder why it isn't changing.

You can keep heading for the cliff, maybe at a slightly slower pace, but you are still going to fall off it.

Do you know how much I hope I am wrong? Do you know how much I would love to see the Dems take back Congress and the WH over the next 2 years and put this country back on a good track, a track where the people and their rights matter above all corporate profit and greed? Do you know how much easier that could be compared to what I think is in store for us?

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[paulk]

55. considering that the website you link to

spends as much of it's time attacking Democrats as Republicans, including appeals to it's reader's to NOT support the Democrats with time and money, what conclusion should I arrive at regarding "world can't wait" vis a vis it's position on the election this November?


You don't think inferring that since I don't share your beliefs I'm somehow a fascist isn't personally insulting?

[meganmonkey]

56. Regarding World Can't Wait

It is up to the mods and admin to decide if that site is unacceptable. Links to Fox News or other sites with anti-Dem editorials are allowed. This is a broad organization consisting of people with many perspectives, but who agree that we need to help our democracy from many directions, including mass protest.

My alleged inference that you are 'somehow a fascist' has nothing to do with my beliefs and you disagreeing with them.

It has to do with whether or not you can back up your arguments. Did you see where I wrote "if"? If you can explain to me how supporting a candidate who voted for this bill will help revive our democracy, then by all means, do it. If you can at least try to convince me that the electoral process alone will save our constitution, then go right ahead. If you cannot, and you are just advocating it because "the Party" says so, then, well, you figure it out :shrug:

[paulk]

57. well, I can't see where you wrote "if"

because the mods deleted your post. I guess they agreed with my interpretation of your "alleged inference".


So, what exactly is the position of "world can't wait"? That both the Democrats and Republicans are equally culpable for the destruction of our democracy and that the only way to rectify this situation is to participate in a mass one day protest?

I'm not going to try and make an argument that the "electoral process alone" will save our constitution. The electoral process is just one step - it's the courts that are the final arbiters of the constitutionality of our laws. I'm fairly confident that this new torture legislation will be struck down by the courts - and if it isn't - well, I guess that it's the will of the people, as expressed through our democratic institutions.... and in which case I will work even harder to get people elected who will write a new law.

It's been explained in many threads today why some Democrats voted for this bill. This vote was "gotcha" legislation, aimed at defeating Democrats in close races by using national security as a wedge. This vote had nothing to do with destroying democracy (which I'm assuming is your position, as it's the opposite of "reviving").

I've never "advocated" for this legislation.

[Leopolds Ghost]

42. You have faith that if Sherrod Brown wins he will change his mind?

Or you think this isn't about Dems like Sherrod Brown who don't belong in the party because they support Torture?

[paulk]

50. so now you want to kick Sherrod Brown out of the party?

Is that what you're advocating here (and in other posts you've made today)?

[Leopolds Ghost]

51. If Sherrod Brown came out in favor of something you found deeply immoral

What would you suggest doing?

[meganmonkey]

52. Not just immoral

But anti-constitution, anti-American, anti-Democratic.

[paulk]

54. buying a gun and blowing my brains out?

ranting and raving on anonymous internet discussion boards?

----------------------


I don't mix morality and politics, actually. I expect politics to be an immoral, nasty business - because it is. Everywhere and everytime throughout history. I expect all politicians to compromise themselves at some point. It's the nature of the beast.

[Skidmore]

44. People are responsible for their choices. Every person in those

chambers of Congress made a CHOICE about voting for this legislation. Those who supported it for whatever reason bear equal shares of blame. There are no excuses big enough. The idea that capitulating to this unworthy man in the WH is somehow justified for reasons of political gain by either side is a cynical argument at best. Fig leaves will not cover the shame that this disgraceful Congress bears. At a very fundamental level, these people are responsible for their choices, as are we all.

[paulk]

30. double post

[G_j]

38. couldn't agree more

does there even exist an ethical line anymore that is too "evil" to cross?
Doesn't seem so.

[meganmonkey]

48. Thanks G_j

Glad to see you. Glad to know I am not alone here :)

[joeunderdog]

7. Doing what's right

must be a "secondary issue" too.

[high density]

8. Yeah cuz as we all know, the Democrats are in charge of this government

And we're always wrong.

[ECH1969]

15. good point

[Leopolds Ghost]

43. We need to ask, "What are the Dems going to do on Torture after we win?"

Sherrod Brown will fight to uphold torture if he wins. I didn't realize he was this strongly in favor of it.

[Ignacio Upton]

10. ...But at the expense of our values!

I plan on supporting the party this November (and I urge DUers who live in competitive Congressional Districts and Senate states to do so), but I'm NOT going to hush up on torture and not criticize them for it. This is fucking ridiculous!

[kysrsoze]

23. I'm hoping not. This is CLEARLY unconstitutional

Of course we will have to wait until we have a more representative SCOTUS. Will that ever happen again?

[Eric J in MN]

11. An accusation=guilt to Sherrod Brown.

Who needs habeas corpus? Let Bush decide who the terrorists are, instead, Brown implies.

[seabeyond]

12. i see this torture bill as THE plus for the democratic party

and i wonder about all those that chose to take blame and responsibility away from the republicans and pin it on the democrats. this is the republicans hand. they own it. they will pay for it

[Leopolds Ghost]

45. Torture is not a game. Anyone who'd try to score political

Anyone who'd try to score political points off this is sick.

Just as sick as the "anti-war" individuals who fervently hoped for war in Iraq, because it would cause Americans to "wake up" and benefit Democrats "big-time".

[lastknowngood]

13. No it is not. If you are no different that the Nazis You are not an

American.

[ECH1969]

16. In 2002 dems had to hold their nose and vote for something

they didn't want to and they had to do it again. It is sad, but we have to win.

[Marie26]

19. This article shows everything that's wrong

w/politics today. It's all about winning, not about representing their country once they get there. As long as you've "polled it extensively", it must be OK. I'm sickened by our leaders.

[ECH1969]

20. If you don't win then you can't change policy

[Marie26]

24. If you don't change policy, why bother winning? nt

[ECH1969]

25. Can't we change policy after we win?

[Marie26]

28. I don't believe that

And I am tired of politicians saying to wait, wait, compromise, make nice until the Democrats come to power. There are some things that you do not compromise on, and some principles that are too important to sell out. Like human rights, and the Constitution, and the fundamental values of our country. Each senator is there as a democratic representative, to represent his people and his country. He is NOT THERE to represent his own personal interests. It might be in Sherrod Brown's personal interests to vote for this bill, but it is not in the interest of his constituents or his country. Most politicians today only care about themselves, about who will donate to them, what lobby will run ads for them, or how they can win again, and they've completely lost sight of the whole reason they're supposed to be there. It's not to win, or make money, or get glory. They're there to represent our people, and our Constitution. And if they're not doing that, they are failing in their duty as a public servant.

[Skidmore]

46. If you are not winning and only sounding like the party in charge all

the time, why should people vote for you? In other circles, that's called "bait and switch" and in others it is known as flip-flopping. How about honestly standing with integrity for a set of policies and that have the good of the nation at heart?

[Leopolds Ghost]

47. No, Sherrod SUPPORTS the bill. Why would he change his mind after winning?

This is not about some hypothetical anti-torture Democrat winning re-election in a blue state, having already voted against it. This is about BROWN winning election in a swing state, thereby not increasing opposition to torture by a single vote, on the grounds that swing states will NEVER support a candidate who opposes torturing terrorists, thereby destroying your argument.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

21. Fuck Sherrod Brown. No one put a gun to his head and made him vote

for this.

[Crunchy Frog]

22. Are all the progressives still glad

that Paul Hackett dropped out of the race? (Of course, he may have taken the same stand, don't know. :shrug:)

[ContraBass Black]

26. "Winning is everything remember that."

If the Constitution is ignored, torture is legalized, Bush is absolved, habeas corpus is rescinded, and the president gets war powers, WE LOSE.

[Jack Rabbit]

27. Regardless as to whether to politics was smart or not

He said the detainees "are not soldiers, not combatants representing a government, these are terrorists."

If a Republican Congressman with a long history of sucking up to the Big Dick and the Frat Boy made that argument, I'd rip it up one side and down the other for its obvious weaknesses.

And guess what? The fact that Sherrod Brown is making this argument doesn't make it one bit better.

He is still resting his case on a presumption of guilt and with the assumption that information gained from a torture is reliable, something that has been demonstrated over and over again to be untrue. If it were, all those old ladies we burned at the stake in the middle ages really were witches.

[jsamuel]

31. "these are terrorists" - HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT WITHOUT DUE PROCESS?!!!

not to mention everything else that is wrong with what he says here...

:mad:

[Beelzebud]

32. Hey yeah! Fuck American ideals! Torture is GOOOOOOOD

[LibDemAlways]

33. "We've polled this extensively" - In other words,

Brown makes his decisions based not on what's right or moral or just, but on "polling," and he's happy to admit it. I'm not in Ohio and have no stake in this and I'm sure DeWine is worse, but Brown sounds like he's got no fundamental principles and his finger in the wind. Ick.

[Beelzebud]

34. Exactly. How pathetic. Screw ideals, just go with the polls.

[ProgressiveFighter]

37. Didn't like him when he screwed over Hackett..he is a liar in it for himse

himself.

No thanks

NEVER will support a traitor who votes for torture.

[William Bloode]

35. This quote is nutz!

"Unlike Mike DeWine, I'm willing to stand up to my party when they're wrong."


Sounds like he thinks torture is the right thing to do. Thats not a very flattering quote.

Hey Sherrod, if ya ever need a spine you can borrow mine.

[verse18]

36. Smart politics?

This is smart politics? This is what our political system has boiled down to? Stooping to the LOWEST common denominator, torture and suspension of habeas corpus, to win a fucking ELECTION? An election to replace one gang of crooks with another gang who is only a little less crooked.

What's the point in having "elected" officials, anyway? They obviously don't give a fuck what their constituents want. I live in TN so my Senator is the head repug and my Representative is a DINO of the highest order. They don't represent me in anyway. They just vote however the fuck they want simply for their own political gain. Why the fuck do we even bother?



NO TAXATION WITHOUT REPRESENTATION!!!!!!!!!!

[madmusic]

39. That's because they were too weak to frame the issue...

The way it REALLY is!

What Democrat or ANY American wants to let real terrorists go free?

None!

But they let the Right frame it that way.

[mod mom]

40. OMG: "Winning is everything" Have we come them?