I have never had more respect for the greatest generation

[dsc]

than I do today. WW2 was a tough war. It took until the end of 1943 and into 1944 for it to become clear we would ultimately win. During the dark days of 1942 we lost one battle after another in the Pacific and were reduced to air strikes from bases in England and Africa in Europe. Cars, gas, food, sugar, nylon, cotton, and a host of other products were rationed. War profiteers were dealt with roughly. The rich paid their share in taxes and sent their boys to war just like everyone else. And we didn't legalize torture nor dismantle the Geneva Conventions. There were no Abu Grabibs in Germany, at least not run by us. There were no Gitmos in Japan, at least not run by us.

The threat faced by our grandparents can't be over estimated. Hitler was in total control of what is now Western Europe except for England, Ireland, Switzerland, Spain, and Finland. He was in control of Eastern Europe except for parts of the Balkans. Japan was in control of every island between Japan and Hawaii. They also had made inroads into China, the Phillipeans, Indonesia, and Korea. By comparision Al Quida has no land mass.

The party of FDR and Truman defeated the greatest threat this country ever faced without legalizing torture or eliminating habeus corpus. It isn't that the party of FDR and Truman became the party of cut and run, it is that party of Teddy Roosevelt and Ike has become the party using the methods of Pol Pot. To use another legal term Res Ipsa Loquitor (the thing speaks for itself).

[July]

1. Kick. You've said it all. nt

[July]

2. Kicking again to say that my dad was one of those fighting for right.

P-47 pilot, European Theater.

[elocs]

8. Mine too.

Heavy machine gunner: North Africa, Sicily, Normandy (Omaha Beach), through France, Belgium, and finally Germany.

[exlrrp]

24. Mine too

My dad was an infantry officer, including company CO, in Europe , '44-45.
He is APPALLED at Bush and wants him impeached--My dad is a former Republican precinct captain, voted for Nixon and Reagan and he wants Bush impeached bad. He voted for Kerry , Gore too. I can hardly believe it, he's more radical about it than I am. This is a big change from the 60's!!
The torture thing is what appalls him the most. My dad is also a veryt wealthy man, the kind that usually supports Republicans but not him--he was born poor. He votes his conscience, gave many thousands to Kerry.
I'm proud as hell of my dad, there's nobody like him.
There's nobody like his generation either. ALthough I rebelled against him in the 60s, I now see they had a lot of class--they dressed well, treated each other civilly (segregation notwithstanding) know what it is to sacrifice. They had GREAT music: they invented "Hip"--NOT my generation. Even though they had segregation, they threw it out finally.
And they beat Hitler and the Japanese without torturing anyone. American troops used to be known as the Good Guys to lots of people--now not so much
You win at last, Dad, I finally want to be just like you when I grow up

[StellaBlue]

3. K&R nt

[NoPasaran]

4. And less than five years after Pearl Harbor it was over

And there was no doubt we had won.

Five years after 9/11, where's Bin Laden? No one knows, all we know is that we botched the invasion that supposedly was going to "bring him to justice"; invaded another uninvolved country and turned that into a disaster; and now the president is frothing at the mouth to create an even bigger disaster by attacking yet another country.

The only progress really being made is demolishing the strength and reputation of the United States and dismantling our civil liberties.

[CTyankee]

5. I agree that we had a moral imperative, BUT

remember that when we diss Israel for launching their fire against Hezbollah, we did the same thing in Germany. Dresden, where we firebombed (bombs made of jellied gasoline) and killed 100,000 and destroyed infrastructure. Berlin, which in 1945, we devastated with our bomb runs, also killing thousands of civilians and of course we destroyed infrastructure (that was the whole point!).

I am NOT arguing against the "greatest generation." But please, let's be honest about our willingness to wage total war.

[dsc]

6. We did do carpet bombing

which wasn't a good thing by any means. But we were hardly singular in that.

[CTyankee]

20. Carpet bombing was a feature of the Vietnam War that

was so despised by antiwar folks. Did we also carpet bomb in WW2?

I guess my point is that if we look back on WW2 with nostalgia for the "greatest generation" we also have to look back on it realistically in terms of the death and destruction of innocent civilians that we decried when Israel did the same thing (and for the same reasons)that we did.

[razors edge]

7. I just listened to

a history channel wargasm show about WWII, while its true we didn't have the gitmolag, these vets were describing how during the first confrontation with the Japanese at Guadalcanal, they were very afraid of their reputation as fighters but what really pissed them of was when they found some of our guys who had been mutilated after death. The grunt explained how they did the same and worse to show them we would not be intimidated and from that point on it was a take no prisoners code for the Americans.

It was a different time and a different world and I'm not sure how well we can compare then and now. I fully believe that I would have done the same had I been there with them, since i remain always faithful, Semper Fi.

In some ways our imperial interventions in Japan led to there own similar ambitions so in a way we created our own enemy there as we did with the present one.

I think the similarities fade quickly from that point. There is no justification for cruel and inhumane treatment that delivers no actionable intelligence, a phrase bush is familiar with I'm sure. But combined with the reality that these actions will be revisited on our own shows the complete lack of any understanding of the phrase compassion, let alone the oxymoran of following it with there sick ideology, conservative.

We now stand witness to the overthrow of our country by the dark forces of greed and corruption.

If there is one, God help us, because the men who would have jumped to their feet and fought this outrage gave their lives long ago. And those of here and now who would, understand the leash around our necks was placed with care by the more evil ones, those who were not ignorant and planned this all long ago.

[Swamp Rat]

19. Yep

Many many men in my family either fought in a war and/or served, from the beginning of this country to right now. I, personally, refuse to willingly participate in military combat (under this misadministration), but if Iraqis, Russians, or green Martians were coming up the Mississippi River, I'd grab a shotgun and my pirogue and put in at the levee by my house.



... but right now, the enemy is within.

[Poiuyt]

9. Kicking in memory of my father - USAAF in Italy

[treestar]

10. Bull, they submit to authority to easiest

They are the reason Bushie is on top!

They do what they are told!

They believe in the battle between good and evil and that it is that simplistic! They fought the Nazis, the Commies, and now, TERRA!!!!

When they can't vote (due to death from old age) is when we will get this country back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[REP]

17. You Really Think 70+ and 80+ Year Olds Are Bush's Base?

That generation was born in the in the '10s and '20s. Only 12.4% of the US population is 65 years of age or older; according to the US Census Bureau, 23,925 people 65 years of age or older voted in the Novermber 2004 presidential election. That's hardly a base, assuming every single one of them voted for Bush (and I know for a fact that not every single one of them did).

[treestar]

27. People born in the 30s are in their 70s

I assume the GG is considered to be the one older than baby boomers.

They are more likely to be registered to vote and are more likely to vote than any younger age group, I would bet.

I know people in that age group, too. They were young during WWII and have romantic ideas of how good can defeat evil by military means, as it did then. The government is to be trusted. Perhaps they could trust it then.

But they refuse to see what has changed.

My parents and uncles/aunts are in this age. Just because Bush goes to church like a good boy, they think he is a good boy. They vote repub because of abortion. That * is against it means he is a good character Christian. Nothing else matters to them. Perhaps this is because they are Catholic, but I imagine this attitude would come from any of the churchgoing of that age.

Sure there are exceptions; there always are; there are wingnut baby boomers. But the GG generally trusts their leaders, pathetically, because they could trust FDR, Ike and JFK, etc. They never went wrong. They really did deal with evil (Hitler) and lived through the Cold War, of course the evil Russians were behind that. The US, via its government defeated these baddies. This is why * tries to get terra to be the new communism, why they cleverly call any potential enemy leader a "Hitler." They know how these sheeple who are most likely to vote will emotionally respond to that.

[BlueStater]

29. Those born from 1928-1942 are the "Silent Generation" n/t

[treestar]

30. Maybe I'm talking about them, then

The people I described come from the SG.

Though my grandparents would be in the GG and mostly seemed as I described, and might even be more pro-war, because it appeared to be the war that ended the depression, that was at least the conventional wisdom. But they were not children at the time and so perhaps not so easily impressionable.

[xerotran]

11. Re: The party of FDR and Truman defeated the

greatest threat this country ever faced without legalizing torture or eliminating habeus corpus.

I believe FDR had American citizens of Japanese descent rounded up and placed in prison camps after Pearl Harbor.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi xerotran!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[dsc]

31. they did and the federal courts upheld the detention

which was a hugely wrong decision. But hebeus corpus wasn't suspeneded.

[ScreamingMeemie]

32. I believe they weren't tortured...

[elocs]

12. I saw a program on PBS some time ago about German POWs

that were held in camps here during WWII. They were so well treated that they received as good if not better rations than our own troops did. They also were able to learn and practice skills such a watch repair. In general at that time, the American people did not question that these prisoners should be treated decently and that they should not be mistreated or tortured, but that how they were treated was the right thing to do. In watching that, I was so proud of my country and it has been a long time since I have felt that kind of pride in America.

[CoffeeCat]

13. That was beautiful...

...thanks for sharing your thoughts.

If we go to war--to rid the world of tyranny--it is illogical and hypocritical
to engage in the same sort of tyranny that we wish to extinguish.

[starroute]

14. And I have never had less

They had freedom in their hands, and they let it slip away.

They came back from war, all idealistic and full of ideas to change the world for the better, and within two or three years they'd forgotten all about it.

They had the nearest thing to a clean slate there'd been in a hundred years, and they didn't take advantage of it.

The "greatest generation" has also been the cushiest generation. After a bad start, the rising tide of the US economy lifted them higher and higher for the next 30 years, without them having to do anything to earn it but work along in a routine manner. They've had the luxury of one-earner families, cheap housing, and retirements in which they've been free to relax, to travel, to keep themselves fitter and healthier than any generation before them -- or possibly after. Do you think any of us will ever have as much?

A few years ago, I tried to tell my father that everything he thought he had fought for was dribbling away, and he couldn't even hear me. In his opinion, his generation had fought the good fight, defended freedom, stood up for the social safety net, and handed their children a country with almost no problems or improvement left to be made.

How could he be so blind?

When I try to talk to him about how my kids are struggling financially in their 20's, as are most of their friends, all he can say is, "They can't afford to be so fussy. Let them start at the bottom and work their way up." And I tell him things don't go like that any more, and he can't hear that either.

I don't know just what did go wrong with my father's generation, but it's as though they did one really first-rate thing in their lives and they've been patting themselves on the back for it ever since. My generation called them hypocrites and sell-outs back in the 60's, and no haze of nostalgia can change that. They let the ball drop, and things have never been the same.

[Dem2theMax]

15. Too bad you don't know my parents. Both served in WWII.

And neither of them are anything like what you describe above. They are both Democrats, still fighting the good fight. My Dad worked six day weeks, sometimes seven, just to put food on the table and a roof over our heads. He was at work at 6 am and he came home only when the work was done. Vacation was a camping trip. Many times it was canceled because he couldn't find anyone he could trust to run his business while we were gone. Mom worked right by his side. So did I. So did my brother. (Luxury of one-earner families? LMAO.) What great retirement? They live month to month, hoping they don't have any emergencies - like the one they had last year when both of them ended up in the hospital within three weeks of each other. If not for a VERY small savings account, they would have had to sell their home to pay the bills.

They raised a daughter who has always had an open mind and an open heart. They raised me to be a Democrat and to fight for what is right. They raised me to never see the color of another persons skin. They raised me to embrace others who are different. They raised me to care about those who have less than I have. And I have very little, I might add. But I consider myself wealthy because of what they have instilled in my heart.

They know what is going on in this country. They pay attention. They are as concerned and frustrated and as angry as I am.

I've never seen my parents pat themselves on the back, for anything.
They are good, kind, decent people who would give you the shirt off of their backs.
Even to you.
Even though you just shamed them.
They'd still welcome you into their home.

They ARE the greatest generation.

[starroute]

16. I'd be interested in which there are more of . . .

People like your parents or like my father.

I'm not saying that in any sarcastic way -- I really am interested. If your parents had to struggle all along, even in the 60's and early 70's, that may be what kept them honest. But I do wonder how many there are like them.

Understand...my father has thought of himself as a liberal all his life. But the last time my father actually acted as a liberal was back around 1960. I suspect that his younger self would be horrified to hear some of the opinions he expresses now.

Certainly the politicians of the World War II generation have been a profoundly mixed bag, ranging from Nixon, Reagan, and Bush Sr. on one end of the spectrum to Kennedy and Carter on the other -- and even the best of them never lived up to the promise that seemed to be there immediately after the end of the war.

It was a lost opportunity, which is even more painful than if the chance had never been there at all, and the fact that the fascists they thought they'd defeated have come back within their own lifetimes has to be counted a failure on their part.

[REP]

18. Am I Missing a Generation?

Your dad is in his 80s and your kids are their 20s? If he was old enough to serve in WWII, he would have had to have been born in the mid '20s (and still probably have to have one of his parents sign for him to enlist before he was 18, as my uncle did) and to have been active in the 60s, one would have had to been born in the late 40s - early 50s (assuming one was a 18-25ish hippy).

Many people confuse Baby Boomers with "Greatest Generation"ers. Boomers are the children of the WWII-era generation.

[lukasahero]

21. I was thinking the same thing but from a different perspective

Exhibit A: "In his opinion, his generation...handed their children a country with almost no problems or improvement left to be made."

Exhibit B: "When I try to talk to him about how my kids are struggling financially in their 20's, as are most of their friends,"

If your kids are struggling, which generation is responsible for that? Hint: It's not your father's.

[RFKHumphreyObama]

22. Couldn't have said it better or more eloquently myself

I've always been in awe of the values, ideals, sacrifices, courage and bravery of those who belonged to that generation -my grandparents included. It was also that generation that played a key role in ending racial segregation, establishing the concept of international law and seeking to establish fairness and integrity as concepts in domestic and foreign policy

Like all generations, that generation had its good and bad members. But I've always been awed by the resilience, the sacrifice, the nobility and the system of values that seemed to characterize so many members of that generation and the role they played in making the world a better place during their lifetimes.

[Javaman]

23. The only failure of the "greatest generation" is this...

They gave birth to the flock of idiots that currently run the country.

Other than dropping the atomic bomb of course, but that's a debate for another day.

[rsdsharp]

26. While I agree with your overall premise

I disagree that "we lost one battle after another in the Pacific" in 1942. While it certainly wasn't easy, other than Wake, we won virtually every battle in the Pacific Theater in 1942. The Battle of the Coral Sea in May 1942 was a draw, and the Battle of Midway in early June effectively ended Japan's ability to project naval power in the Pacific, all but sealing it's fate. The invasion of Guadalcanal in August began the first of an unbroken string of victories in the island hopping campaign that led back to Japan's home islands.

[Coexist]

28. and they proved their greatness at Nuremberg

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/nuremberg/nuremberg.htm

They did not unlawfully detain and torture the filthy Nazis. They remembered who they were, tried and convicted them openly for the entire world to see. No hiding, no secrecy.

They did their country proud.