Did the Democrats surrender on the torture issue?

[kentuck]

If so, why should we continue the fight when our leaders are surrendering? Looking at the 11 Democrats that voted with the Repubs, it's always the usual suspects. This is what is wrong with the Democratic Party, although I must say, we have made a start with Joe Lieberman. They divide our Party on every issue. We are united on nothing. Absolutely nothing. Because of these people, we will never be a united Party. I understand we would still have lost if every Democrat had voted against the bill and this is the political season, but what did they have to gain? They surrendered.

[skipos]

1. "usual suspects"

Bayh? Clinton? Cantwell?

[seabeyond]

2. NO. the strong majority voted no. didnt you hear? n/t

[seabeyond]

4. btw, in case confused,.... NO means NO

[Poll_Blind]

3. On good men doing nothing.

  Edmund Burke said "All that is necessary for evil to succeed is that good men do nothing."

  For most of my life and certainly all of my adult life I have confronted various evils, intentionally or otherwise. Sometimes you go looking for that monster and sometimes it comes looking for you. Regardless, the eventual confrontation is a trial. Winning or losing in a battle against evil is a moot point to judge a man or woman.

  It is whether one flees from the battle or enjoins it that is relevant in my opinion. That is a point to judge on.

  There is also the matter of how thoroughly that evil is confronted. As Americans, we are taught that some evils are so highly-appointed in the infernal hierarchy that they require we lay our lives down to stop them. Again, it is of little importance whether we win or lose that battle, but what pains were taken to stop it.

  To many here, is is high Truth that this battle today required more effort than was given by those we have appointed to defend us. It will be marked down, and it should be, that the battle might not have been winnable. That is ultimately irrelevant. What will also be noted, and of much greater importance, is that this battle should have been fought with the kind of vigor appropriate to the menace of that evil which was confronted.

  Which it was not.

  This was not a legislative kerfuffle over the subsidizing the price of corn or choosing a design for the face of a coin. Nor was it merely, and I use that word correctly, merely how we confront the evils which threaten America.

  This was something greater than that. Today's battle was a question about how we confront evil in ourselves, and how we define our national character.

  And the choice has been made. The President will lower his gallows-pen and the scratches it makes on paper will become a pale reflection of the gallows-blade which hangs heavily over our Liberties' neck.

  The good men and women who represent us in Congress have not done nothing. But they have certainly not done what was necessary when confronting an evil of this magnitude. I did not expect our representatives to lay down their life for us, today. But I sorely wish that I would have known that they would lay down so little when the stakes were so great.

  Freedom is a prologue to that which we will live with from this day forward. But Freedom is not the father or mother of it.

PB

[Solly Mack]

8. Thanks for that!!!!!

[Poll_Blind]

10. If you could, please take a moment and...

...recommend this comment in it's own thread here.

Thank you!

PB

[kentuck]

12. Will do.

K & R !

[Poll_Blind]

14. Thank you! n/t

PB

[Solly Mack]

15. Happily

[Poll_Blind]

25. Thank you! n/t

PB

[kentuck]

9. I suspect this may end up as Act II in the Iraq War vote...

If they had only known then what they know now, they would never have voted for it. If they had only known that all the facts were going to come out about the torture and all, they will say they would never have voted for it. They make me sick.

[Poll_Blind]

11. I have to admit, I am feeling pretty sick to my stomach tonight as well.nt

PB

[OnceUponTimeOnTheNet]

21. Stabenow of MI voted against the pre-emptive.

WTF! is she thinking of today?!
DLC anyone? Yuk!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

5. Where's our Tom DeLay, going up and down the aisles twisting people's

fucking arms in the cause of MORALITY?!

How many arms did Reid twist to try and get them to change their votes?

"Oh, but you can't possibly know what's happened behind the scenes"

Well I guess not since THIS is always the result.

[bklyncowgirl]

17. Senators in tight races e.g. Menendez, were given the green light

No attempt to hold a party line vote much less a filibuster. It may be "smart" politics but it is abysmal leadership.

[Jade Fox]

6. No wonder people think the Dems are soft on terror.....

They won't stand up to the terrorists in the Republican Party.

On the positive side, this may backfire on both parties big time.

[bdamomma]

7. I don't think they surrendered

the dems put out 4 or 5 amendments and were outnumbered again, by these sick repigs who vote straight party line or for their invincible leader but it motivates me even more that I will vote for the Dems in November.

[mdmc]

13. hang tough kentuck

this sucks, but we will get through it. It is just politics

[kentuck]

16. Naw...it's not just politics...

It is much more serious than that. DU needs to face the reality of what was voted for today. We, the people, lost. It is now the law. We can keep telling ourselves, "it could never happen to us". Well, it could happen to us.

[Solly Mack]

22. ((((kentuck))))

because you're right. Because I understand.....all too well.

[mdmc]

30. what she said

hang tough :patriot:

[Cleita]

23. You are so right.

They crossed the line between what is American and what is not.

[Jcrowley]

24. No

it's way more than that. Anyone who voted for this is an enabler to the fascist state. When people's lives become "just politics" it's time for an end to "just politics."

[Cleita]

27. I believe when stuff like this becomes law, we have lost our

country. I wonder whom will surface as our new masters?

[walldude]

18. Here's the list of so called Dems who voted to protect

the Bush administration from their war crimes:
Carper (Del.), Johnson (S.D.), Landrieu (La.), Lautenberg (N.J.), Lieberman (Conn.), Menendez (N.J), Nelson (Fla.), Nelson (Neb.), Pryor (Ark.), Rockefeller (W. Va.), Salazar (Co.), Stabenow (Mich).

Of course one of my Senators joined in. As usual... These people all need to be shamed.

[BlooInBloo]

19. Kos is right - whinings like this are idiotic...

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/9/27/13334/2619

[kentuck]

20. Kos is wrong...

This is not he same as Nixon signing the EPA or OSHA. He is naive and living in a dream world, like many other Democrats. The world changed today. It is now the law, whether we like it or not. We are at the mercy of George W Bush or whichever dictator may follow. It is the law. Get it?

[BlooInBloo]

36. The world changed after 9/11... the world changed today...

Dylan said it a loooooong time ago... Why do people still feel like it's informative? The times they are a' changin.

lol! Kos living in a dream world - that's a good one.

[Old and In the Way]

26. 85% or so voted for our Constitution.

At this point, it is 100% of Republicans who want to trash our Constitution and make the Incompet-In-Chief a dictator. But the more people read about what this POS legislation does, I think this will have a postive effect on galvanizing opposition to the Republican Crime Syndicate. Once we wrest control from the Party of Crime, then we can focus on getting that 15% booted.

[mdmc]

32. good way of lookin at it

:kick:

[mmonk]

28. The majority did not.

[kentuck]

29. The majority did....because

they did not persuade a half dozen of the others to vote to continue the debate and they could have filibustered it. The Repubs would have folded by tomorrow because they want to get back home and campaign.

[Eric J in MN]

31. It's the fault of the Senators who voted against the bill...

...that they couldn't persuade the Senators who voted for it?

[kentuck]

33. The Repub leaders persuaded all their people to vote for it...

Friends don't let friends vote Republican.

[gully]

35. Ahh, so because some could not be persuaded those who fought this

are responsible?

:eyes:

[gully]

34. Define "the democrats" a FEW did, yes - the MAJORITY did NOT.

And, I have a major correction for YOU, they work for US - they are not "our leaders" - we hire them, we can fire them!

Remember those who turned their backs on democracy, and act accordingly. Priority 1 = OUST REPUBLICANS, 2 = get rid of those who acted like Republicans today.