Yes, it's bad. No, it's not Nazism.

[Taxloss]

The "frog soup" version of events is a very common misconception about the Nazis - that Germany's civil liberties were chipped away bit by bit over time, so that no one noticed what was going on until it was too late.

The reality was actually very different. For a start, the Nazi programme of the destruction of civil liberties was widely publicised in advance - the destruction of democracy, curtailment of human rights and subordination of formerly democratic institutions to an absolutist central authority was not only the centrepiece of the Nazis' stated programme, it was the basis of their support - the c30% of Germans who formed core Nazi support and voted for them in 1933 (power was achieved by a coalition with other right-wing parties) WANTED civil liberties destroyed because they saw that as the only way to drag Germany out of the domestic chaos (streetfighting, etc.) it was experiencing.

Once the Nazis actually achieved power, in 1933, Weimar democracy was destroyed with incredible speed. There was no long period of erosion. The Weimar constitution, all German democratic institutions, nearly all freedom of speech and every anti-Nazi organisation had been swept away entirely. All prominent dissidents were in the temporary concentration camps that had appeared almost immediately - permanent camps were being built. (The camps were far from secret - the opening of Dachau was announced with some fanfare.)

Further than that, all organisations in Germany that could potentially become focii for resistance to the regime - whether political or not - had been subjected to a process called "coordination", whereby their leadership were removed and loyal Nazis put in their place - or the organisation was declared illegal. This applied to every organisation down to local chess, beekeeping, boat and book clubs.

This was all within six months.

The left was so shocked by the speed of the process it did almost nothing.

-------

The passing of this torture bill is a very sad day for America. But DU, KOS, Raw Story, and their ilk are still online. Keith Olbermann, Noam Chomsky and Molly Ivins have not been rounded up. You can read the furious reaction of columnists in American newspapers, and more importantly you can read foreign reactions.

This is bad, but it isn't Nazism. It really isn't - you still have free speech, freedom to protest and resist, freedom to organise and plan, freedom to nominate and vote, in fact an impressive number of freedoms that would be envied by the citizens of half the world's states, comprising at least two thirds of the world's population. You are less free today, but you are STILL FREE.

This is not a plea for complacency - far from it. It is a plea for hope, for perspective, a plea to rouse you to make use of the freedoms you have to turn back this tide. Don't give in to the despair-mongers and their message that it's all lost, everything is fucked, you might as well emigrate or commit suicide. They're doing nothing to protect you or help you. Organise, write, vote. Participate, dammit. Every time you say "I give up", Rove gets a hard on.

--------

One key word - participation. From what campaigns I have helpd in, I know that donations aren't everything. Far from it. Donating money is nothing compared to giving time, and everyone can give time in one way or another, and that is often more beneficial to a campaign and also more satisfactory for the donor. Campaigns can't put a cash value on time, it's priceless.

If you're at a loss as to what to do, I recommend joining Amnesty International. You don't have to donate, although of course that helps. The important thing is to sign up to get their action alerts. These will tell you of times when you should sign a petition, write a letter or whatever. There are always many alerts active. Every time you see an "OMFG WHATS THE POIUNT THE NAZIS HAV WON" thread, resist the urge to reply and respond to an action alert instead.

Trust me, you'll feel better for it. More importantly, though, you might actually change something for the better.

[asthmaticeog]

1. Thank you.

There are too few voices of reason in GD these days.

Thank goodness the real world exists to remind me that this forum can so easily become a spawning ground for the incestuous amplification of hysteria.

[pooja]

2. Germany was one of the most Progressive societies its time.

It had one of the most progressive human rights disernments regaurding Jews and Christians and whatever. The "Nazi movement" was only able to prosper because of the events of WWI. If you remember, they did charge Hitler with treason. But it was the fire at the Parliment building that set it on its final dessent (only after reigning in liberties)... So congress and Pres reigning in liberties due to 9/11.

Really convenient for them to ride the towers to our own deaths.

[Taxloss]

6. The Reichstag Fire happened after the Nazis had taken power,

and were already embarking on their programme of destroying democracy. Their actions were already planned and publicised.

[AntiFascist]

55. They used propaganda through their controlled media brilliantly...

just like our current administration. Just wait to see if they don't attempt to bring back somthing like McCarthyism, and begin identifying many of us as enemy sympathizers. Aren't Rove and Cheney already trying to stir this up?

[Bob3]

3. Keith, Molly, and Noam have not been rounded up.

Give them time he hasn't signed it yet.


On edit (F##King dislexia)

[madame defarge]

4. In general, I agree with you, but...

the bill is only one day old & hasn't been signed into law yet. Once that happens, some of those freedoms you say we still have might start to disappear.

I'm not willing to take that chance. And you're right -- participation is key to saving our democracy.

I will not give up. I'm going to fight this all I can.

[Taxloss]

10. My personal feeling is it won't pass the Supreme Court.

We'll see, I suppose. If that happens, the situation is a lot worse than I feared.

But I'm glad to hear you're not giving up!

[lonestarnot]

88. Well haven't you heard? The SCOTUS has been written out of any

review of the bill. So what does that make them now? Fascists, NAZIs (no, you've already tried to silence that proclamation), New World Order? I don't give a fuck what we call them. The label is secondary to their actions, and no matter which way I look at it, it is entirely bad stuff. I am ready to stop them in any manner it takes to stop them, but I see no organization. and on edit bushitler is still bushitler to me.

[Taxloss]

90. The organisation is called the ACLU, or Amnesty,

or any number of others. And I'm not trying to "silence" anything.

On edit: This bill, I am confident, will not survive legal challenges against it because of the contradictions it sets up within American law. At least, that's my opinion of it. As for what to call the system, leave that to the historians and concentrate on fighting it.

[lonestarnot]

91. I belong to both organizations! I'm talking about the torture bill

Torture! Language contained within the bill explicitly states that there will be no review by any Court.

[Taxloss]

94. Review of the law, or review of cases under the law?

I am not, repeat not, stating that this legislation isn't extremely bad, undemocratic and immoral. But it represents a monstrous mutation of the system - and, as with McCarthyism, the system will ultimately reject it. (IMO, I hope etc.)

[lonestarnot]

95. The freaking torture bill! "the law" the one that is not signed yet. Not

the entire body.

[Taxloss]

98. I know which one you're talking about.

It will be review by courts after it is passed, as they apply it, see?

[lonestarnot]

100. No it will not according to the law itself and the way it is written! And

without a habeas corpus ammendment, as all were rejected, what in the hell are they going to review? This is freaking circular.

[lonestarnot]

101. I borrowed this from another thread, but it also makes my point

Crowley won't mind as I see he is of the same opinion I am.

Section 950j. The Bill criminalizes any challenge to the legislation
In section 950j. the bill criminalizes any challenge to the legislation's legality by the Supreme Court or
any United States court.

"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."


The Bush administration is preemptively overriding any challenge to the legislation by the Supreme Court.
Time To Break Silence- MLK

[file83]

103. Jesus - I've never seen that part before. It CRIMINALIZES any challenge

to the legislation? That is straight up fascism right there.

Oh my God...

[lonestarnot]

105. little bit more than fucking worth fighting for I'd say!

:patriot:

[havocmom]

106. Yep

We are all Germans now.

[file83]

107. That's a powerful statement. It gave me some serious pause...

...because it is so fucking true.

[readmoreoften]

109. Wow, I didn't realize that either. Totally frightening.

"No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider any claim or cause of action whatsoever, including any action pending on or filed after the date of the enactment of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, relating to the prosecution, trial, or judgment of a military commission under this chapter, including challenges to the lawfulness of procedures of military commissions under this chapter."

[lonestarnot]

97. Holding out false hope is to remain complicit on the issue in my way of

looking at this terrible situation.

[Fierce]

5. Yup.

Well said. Comparing this to the Nazis is just insulting.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

32. seriously.

i mean bush doesn't have a mustache.

[smirkymonkey]

43. Yeah, and he speaks English, not German.

Well, actually he doesn't even really speak English either. Does he?

Never mind.

[ooglymoogly]

53. yup you are right a well deserved insult to the torturer in chief... nt

[earth mom]

72. Insulting to whom?

:wtf:

[mmonk]

7. Our democracy is more entrenched.

But a big foundational brick was attacked yesterday that should worry anyone. We have serious cracks.

[springhill]

36. Oh my God...........

We have serious cracks? That is an understatement if I ever heard one. How some are not more alarmed is beyond me. I mean, stolen elections, rigged elections, no human rights, locking people up with no recourse, starting wars at your whim (hell, doing anything at your whim). What makes anyone think that this trend won't continue? You think they will just decide this is enough and leave it at that? I don't think so.

[Poll_Blind]

70. They're just going to keep on going until someone or something..

...stops that had from grabbing for more.

PB

[bananas]

8. that will make you a terrorist

once The Decider decides that amnesty int'l is a terraist orgnisation.
gitmo for you!
oh wait - we don't have to send you to gitmo,
torture in the US is legal now,
we'll just string you up right here...

[Taxloss]

14. I should be on more than enough lists by now.

As a named member of Amnesty, a variety of civil liberties groups, and a Friend of the Adbusters Foundation (a subversive organisation if there ever was one) I would be slightly offended if I didn't make The List.

I'm British, but I daresay that won't make a great deal of difference.

Anyway, all the more reason to keep fighting.

[SmokingJacket]

9. We have learned from Nazism.

Whatever will happen to our country, it won't be Nazism. We *aren't* post-WW I Germans, for one thing, and for a second thing we have that in our history to show us how bad things can get and a sense of what needs to be avoided.

Comparisons with the Nazis may not be accurate, BUT I believe it's important to do -- it's important to constantly examine what happened then and how it happened. Because it is possible that something as bad as what happened under the Nazis could happen again -- not exactly like, but as bad -- and reminding ourselves of the signs and signals and that whole horrible history is the ONE THING that will keep us from repeating it.

That said, I think you're right: I'm going to make another donation to Amnesty International today.

But you can hardly blame people for feeling helpless at this point. Many of the ways we have to effect change have been cut off: if we protest, the media don't pay attention; if we vote, we're not sure that the machines are counting our votes; if we call our representatives, there aren't enough of them to make a difference. Yes, we can chatter on the Internet. So that's what we're doing.

[Beausoleil]

28. American Fascism won't be like German Nazism

As VP Wallace wrote in 1944:

"The dangerous American fascist is the man who wants to do in the United States in an American way what Hitler did in Germany in a Prussian way. The American fascist would prefer not to use violence. His method is to poison the channels of public information. With a fascist the problem is never how best to present the truth to the public but how best to use the news to deceive the public into giving the fascist and his group more money or more power."

and ...

"Still another danger is represented by those who, paying lip service to democracy and the common welfare, in their insatiable greed for money and the power which money gives, do not hesitate surreptitiously to evade the laws designed to safeguard the public from monopolistic extortion. American fascists of this stamp were clandestinely aligned with their German counterparts before the war, and are even now preparing to resume where they left off, after 'the present unpleasantness' ceases."

And we know of whom he wrote.

Link to the whole 1944 NYT article:

http://newdeal.feri.org/wallace/haw23.htm

[SmokingJacket]

37. WOW.

That kinda blows me away.

Thanks for posting.

[AntiFascist]

52. Excellent quotes!

Also, we should never allow Bushco to confuse the issue with terms like "Islamo-fascism" or statements like we are fighting an "ideology". They may try to cloud the issue with Islamophobia, but the true nature of the problem is old-fashioned right vs. left, where fascism is what happens at the extreme right end of the spectrum to counter anything that even smells of a popular (left-wing) uprising. Hitler and his supporters feared much of the same thing as Bush and his wealthy Arab friends, the attack on Zionists only served to rally Hitler's support.

[Beelzebud]

11. If thats the bar we set for ourselves we are scum...

Is that the best we can say about ourselves these days?

"Oh yeah! Well we're not the Nazis!"

Personally I'd like to have the bar much higher than Nazi.

[Dhalgren]

12. Of course they aren't "Nazis", but, of course, they are fascists...

[Javaman]

15. We are experiencing nazi lite...Or as I like to call it, "the early years"

nt

[Lars39]

24. I think of it as 'friendly fascism'.

[Javaman]

27. I like that better. it has a very horrible yet upbeat ring to it.

I no longer cry for our future. I now hide in the basement.

[Lars39]

29. I hear ya.

I've been alternating between the two. :(

[CarbonDate]

74. Ah, so that's what he meant by....

"compassionate conservatism." I was wondering.

[mogster]

13. Free speech, yes. But for how long?

They've burnt all bridges, long time ago. There's no way back to a normal democracy for the US without dealing with this misadministration in a decisive way that opens up and reveals the truth.
Do you think they'll give away the power and face the outcome freely? Not a chance.
November is going to be an interesting month.

[Taxloss]

16. Best to use it well while you've got it.

You're right, though, Nov will be interesting - I personally think it will be a good result.

[leveymg]

17. K&R. An intelligent and wise post. Thank you, Taxloss!

Historically different circumstances. Here are some some of the major differences between the US today and Germany in 1933: we haven't lost a World War (yet); we haven't recently entered a Great Depression (yet); the American Right-wing has no charismatic leadership (except a couple of silly girls); being a nation of immigrant groups and ex-slaves, there are no truly indelible social wedge issues and bloody scapegoats; we're all far too distracted by reality-TV, video games and on-line amusements to get swept into a mass movement like the Nazi Party.

So, what's happening is a sort of leaderless, massless, non-racist, unnoticed authoritarianism that's taken over. Most people aren't even aware of it, really, which makes it particularly dangerous because it's like an odorless, invisible, poison gas.

Call it Sarin Fascism. It attacks the population's central nervous system, but leaves the real estate standing.

[indepat]

18. I hope the likes of Keith, Noam and Mollie don't get wasted, disappeared

or have mysterious/inexplicable accidents. As an 11th-generation person to these shores with a gggrandson, I put absolutely nothing past those who control all levers of power and the media to achieve whatever agenda they have. My disgust for all Congresspersons of both parties who have voted for this Bill and anything else promoting an un-American agenda is absolute as it is with every Amerikan still supporting this cabal. Wait, are those the brown-shirts at my front door?

[leveymg]

20. The last thing they want to do is create martyrs that might wake people up

The MSM will just continue to ignore us to death.

[tocqueville]

19. the Weimar Republic was a very weak democracy

the Germans didn't have a tradition of Democracy. They went basically from a postfeudal system to republic due to the war collapse in 1918. They never had a revolution. Of course there was plenty of "liberal" intellectuals and trends but the basic was the respect of authority.

Democracy can be neat on paper, but it's basically a state of mind. That's why the Nazis could reverse the process so rapidly. It's more difficult in a nation like the US due to its long traditions. Even if it's an asset, it's a weakness too compared to European countries. The US never had restaurations of monarchy or fascist coups etc... So they are not prepared and the lack of outrage AMONG THE MASSES is a sign of that. What happens in teh US couldn't happen in Europe today, you'll have millions on the streets within one day. And I mean millions, not one million chanting on a square one afternoon.

the US of today isn't fascistic, but proto-fascistic. It reminds of Francism (Franco) for its religious approach.

And even if it's cool to join Amnesty, it's not THE solution (I imagine that you didn't mean that either). Only the construction of a strong independent democratic network with deep roots among the masses and use of legal but non-parlamentary methods can succeed. You cannot win by just following the "old democratic political pattern". Because the other side is cheating.

[Taxloss]

21. Good points.

You're right that joining Amnesty is not THE solution, I dropped it in as something to do if someone couldn't think of anything else, because it works as such a useful source of information about other campaigns. Well, it does for me, at least.

I think the whole "are we fascist/what colour of fascist" argument is a bit of a red herring, to be frank, because what with fascism being a primarily nationalistic political force, it has to vary its nature from country to country - as opposed to, say, bolshevism, which is international and could be applied everywhere with the same unfortunate results. It's not as though there is a threshold of fascism after which the appropriate response is to either give up or resort to asymmetric tactics, I think that if you care about the world your political participation should be as total as your circumstances allow, even in the good times - in fact, especially in the good times.

If the risk of fascism (and I'll agree that the USA is at grave risk of succumbing to a semi-fascist form of oligarchical militarism) is what must be used as a rallying call to mobilise resistance frm the left, so be it. But what I see more often on DU is the argument that the fascists have already won, so there's no point doing anything, and that approach is both untrue and dangerous.

[AntiFascist]

78. I fully agree with you there...

I see way too much support for the depressing, giving up hope, "its too late" type of threads...then before you know it we'll be discussing compromises in the form of "neo-liberalism".

[mogster]

38. Good point in that last paragraph

"Only the construction of a strong independent democratic network with deep roots among the masses and use of legal but non-parlamentary methods can succeed."

Bread and butter for democracy are the people. If the people aren't in, it's not democracy but in name only.

"What happens in teh US couldn't happen in Europe today, you'll have millions on the streets within one day."

I' not sure. Five years ago I'd say the same about the US. It's all in the media power. If 'they' gain control of the media - and uses it against truth and information - people won't even notice, but live happily on. I've seen it happen here since 2001/2002. First I couldn't believe it, because I was sure about the integrity of the Norw. journos. But through a change of the chief for the main state channel NRK in 2001, a series of shake-up's in the main papers in 2003/2004 (people are fired/offered to quit with a package), and a switch from BBC World to CNN in February 2004 as main 24/7 news provider by the largest cable provider UPC, the media 'sphere' has turned 180 degrees.
Scary.

[tocqueville]

46. of course there isn't a 100% guarantee (last point)

but still I have very difficult to believe that for example an European government could so blatantly pass laws of that kind in Europe today.

This for a main reason : the "terror argument" isn't working. Europeans have been subject to terror during the last postwar period, a fact that Americans have a tendency to forget. Not only the last Madrid/London bombings but terror from other sources has been frequent : the IRA was far more lethal than 9/11, the OAS in France a serious nuisance and partly backed by the military, the extreme left in Germany and Italy (even assassinated a prime minister) was very active in the seventies, France was under islamist attack 94-95 with an aborted hijacked plane attack on the Eiffel tower and a series of lethal bombings in the subway etc... etc... So terror ? after the initial outrage = "back to business". Did the UK and Spain went to the right after the bombings ? no, rather the contrary.

Norway has a VIVID experience of resistance against nazism, and I don't think they'd tolerate a new Quisling.

what's special with the US is that the process is LEGAL and even supported by the loyal opposition. It shows
the level of "other planet" compared to the rest of the West. Other European countries used illegal methods in the past, specially during the colonial wars and as late as the 60s-70s. Even the UK used torture against the IRA.
But they never tried to make them LEGAL, they were ashamed of it and denied it.

The extreme right might win some victories in Europe mainly by exploiting the fear of immigration (like in Austria, Norway, Denmark) but it doesn't last very long and never shakes the fundaments of the nation.

And remember that the most watched TVs in Europe aren't private, but public service. Even in Italy the takeover didn't work despite Berlusconi's ownership. If in France the 5 public channels were diverted into propaganda, the screen would go blank. For the simple reason that the CGT would cut off the power after an inflamatory appeal, putting at least 5 millions on the streets.

The only way I see a resurgence of fascism in Europe is a military coup after an extreme situation (collapsed economy etc...)...

but in the US it's possible to do it the smooth way because most Americans don't have a clue, still think that their system is perfect (while it's the system itself that has permitted the current situation) and that there isn't any serious opposition.

Heja Norge

[lonestarnot]

79. The torture bill has written out judicial review which on its face is

unconstitutional. I say we are already in an "extreme situation" for a democratic form of government. So when are the millions hitting the streets? The day the bill is signed?

[Sammy Pepys]

22. It's a grave disservice to compare current events to Nazism

Or even fascism.

It wins no allies, convinces no skeptics and disrespects the history of what happened in Germany in the first half of the 20th century. It should stop.

[shance]

23. A friend of mine worked with a women from Germany

who was young but remembers the Hitler years well. What she remembers most vividly from her parents stories, was how so many Germans were clueless and blindsighted by Hitler and his essential overthrow of the government, until it was too late. The tanks and the military were already making their presence in the streets.

I think it's vital what you mentioned about taking action now.

I think the most important action now, in my opinion, is not to keep feeding the Washington organizations that are simply not fighting hard enough and we have no idea where that money is going, but to focus on talking to our neighbors, getting a couple of friends and start a neighborhood community activism group, pass out articles about this latest torture bill to neighbors and ask them how they feel about what is going on.

I've come to the conclusion, that the primary way to beat this increasing 'fascism'(which is essentially corporatism) now after so much corruption in Washington has been made obvious to us citizens, , is to get back to square one, and start with our neighbors.

[Taxloss]

25. My grandmother in Germany in the 1930s, and remembers it.

She was in school, and to her the uniforms everywhere were the most memorable thing, but she did remember harsh discipline and children disappearing.

My great-grandfather withdrew her and brought her back to England when he realised (rather late) the risks.

It's a story that I must tell DU about in more detail one day, but it's quite painful and family stuff, o I've never really had the nerve.

[file83]

104. By the time it gets to that level here in 2006 America, it'll be too late.

[H2O Man]

26. Very good OP.

Well done. Thank you.

[glitch]

30. Perhaps not. But I am going with Molly Ivins on this one

"Fellow citizens, this bill throws out legal and moral restraints as the president deems it necessary -- these are fundamental principles of basic decency, as well as law.

I'd like those supporting this evil bill to spare me one affliction: Do not, please, pretend to be shocked by the consequences of this legislation. And do not pretend to be shocked when the world begins comparing us to the Nazis."

http://www.creators.com/opinion_show.cfm?columnsName=miv

[lonestarnot]

80. I'm with you glitch!

[Zorra]

31. It will rapidly become much more repressive if we don't stop them

somehow.

We can't give up. History repeatedly shows us how dangerous conservatives are when they begin to run amok. From the Spanish Inquisition to Hitler and Stalin, we see what happens when conservatives are not prevented from letting their nasty little selfs out to torture and kill the innocent.

No, it's not the German fascism of the 1930's. But it could progress into something as bad or worse if we do not check these conservative lunatics.

Reach out and talk to the potential voter that is apathetic but understands what is happening on some level, and help them register to vote. I've had a lot more success with these folks than wasting my time trying to reason with conservatives, who like the idea of torture.

[ms liberty]

33. Thanks for the perspective and inspiration, Taxloss K&R n/t

[Beelzebud]

34. We should be so proud! We're not nazis! Yay!!!!!

What a disgrace that this even has to be said...

[Taxloss]

40. And said twice in the same thread, at that. n/t

[NNN0LHI]

61. Hard to believe isn't it?

How did we get here?

And where is the exit?

Don

[nemo137]

35. Well said, Taxloss

:toast:

[pat_k]

39. fascism is facism: whether you call it monarchy, theocracy, aristocracy. .

. . .they are all ruled by a faction who believes they have some inherent right to do so.

And, it is that belief that allows the Hitlers to rise.

The events of the last few years haven't shown the amazing speed with which a once great nation can descend into evil.

http://voiceoutrage.com">voiceoutrage.com

Call this abomination what it is: The War Criminals Protection Act

(And maybe give http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2255629&mesg_id=2255629">this one a kick)

[Nye Bevan]

41. If DUers can post polls asking if we are in a totalitarian dictatorship...

then we are not.

[Taxloss]

42. Good rule of thumb, that. n/t

[readmoreoften]

58. So if they allow us our bread and circuses, it isn't fascism yet? /nt

[Amonester]

81. Uh... otay.

But... for how long? :scared:



...



(crickets)

[kath]

44. I'm not sure that Milton Mayer, author of "They Thought They Were Free:

The Germans 1933 - 1945" would agree with you:


What happened was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to be governed by surprise, to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believe that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if people could understand it, it could not be released because of national security.

The crises and reforms (real reforms too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

To live in the process is absolutely not to notice it -- please try to believe me -- unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, 'regretted,' that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these "little measures" that no "patriotic German" could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

<snip>

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. "One had no time to think. There was so much going on.""
"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your "little men", your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about - we were decent people - and kept us so busy with continuous changes and "crises" and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the "national enemies", without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?"

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice - "Resist the beginnings" and "consider the end." But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have changed here before they went as far as they did; they didn't, but they might have. And everyone counts on that might.

Much more at link:
"Slouching Toward Kristallnacht":
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/12/20/12819/467

[bvar22]

45. It is going to look a little different.

Those that want "Total Control" have learned a great deal over the last 60-70 years, and think on a much grander scale than the Nazis or Stalinist. They have visions of entire continents being transformed into virtual "Labor Camps" controlled by an Authoritarian "One Party" Corporate Owned government.

It would be necessary to provide the inmates (The Labor Class) the illusion of free speech and Political Representation, but the REALITY would be One-Party Rule (The Corporate Party). Since the Corporate Power Brokers would control both Political Parties, the Anti-Labor/Anti-Human Rights agenda would progress regardless of which Party was the national figurehead. A Party Rotation schedule would be established that would rotate the different figureheads through office to perpetuate the illusion of Political Choice.

It won't be necessary to put millions into camps since the whole country will become a labor camp.
In order to prevent movements, it is only necessarily to disappear early leaders, or to marginalize them through the National Propaganda Outlet (TV).(i.e. Dan Rather, Bill Moyers, Michael Moore)

If a member of the Labor Class wants to eat and feed his family(have an income), he/she will be given the choice. Those that rebel against the "Ruling Class" will find it very difficult to keep a decent job, place his children in decent schools, obtain any type of government assistance, grants, loans, contracts, or representation on boards, councils, or zoning commissions. (that will be reserved for Party members).


As soon as the borders are hardened, and Passports are encoded with a "chip", you won't even have the freedom to leave.


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[lonestarnot]

82. Yes.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

47. Damn you sir!

How dare you use reason and logical historical analysis to call for a realistic approach. Where's the hyperbole, the credulousness, the call of doom, labelling those who disagree as 'fascist enablers', the poor recall of history? Hang your head in shame sir.

[Jcrowley]

48. Not Nazism

but definitely fascism. What is not only upon America, but what has been around for quite some time is what could be called a soft (not always so soft either), suave technocratic form of fascism. It will become increasingly rough as energy supplies diminish accompanied by the inevitable social upheaval.

A simple summation of a highly complex answer is that powerful reactionary forces are consistently poised to suppress those who dare to challenge the tyranny of the de facto aristocracy and corporatocracy. And they have an extraordinary propaganda machine known as the mainstream media to sustain the myth that the United States is a nation governed by and for “We the People”.

One can readily find multiple examples of other governments and nations guilty of heinous crimes against humanity, but with a foreign policy that has resulted in the annihilation of millions of civilians, the United States is as malevolent as some of history’s most despicable empires. And the “bastion of human rights” has a highly questionable track record domestically too. Ask Native Americans and Blacks how their ancestors fared in a nation populated largely by self-professed Christians and ostensibly governed as a constitutional republic.

Holding the reins guiding the world’s sole remaining super-power, the United States’ ruling elite have seized (or perhaps created) a ripe opportunity. Preying on ignorance and fear, they have convinced many amongst the masses to sell their souls for the “security” of fascist and corporate rule.

I believe the phrase is "Save the despair for better times", with an addendum from Huey Long about fascism coming to America wrapped in the flag.

America has never been free unless you were of the landed gentry.

[ooglymoogly]

49. what a bunch of moronic claptrap

of course its different...this is a different time a different place with different parameters and a much, much larger democracy to destroy...duh...is our constitution being choked at every opportunity? are our freedoms being curtailed at every opertunity?...by god yes...just what we need more apologists for these nazis telling us it really ain't so bad.

[Taxloss]

77. Hmm.

Your worthless contribution might be able to salvage a small amount of value if it actually reflected what I said. "Yes, it's bad" I said, not "it really ain't so bad". But feel free to squander your remaining freedom indulging it fruitlessly on feeble interjections. People interested in actually making a difference can do so by paying more attention to what I wrote.

[lonestarnot]

83. Who made you king of DU? We are entitled to our opinions as well as

you yours.

[Taxloss]

85. Not according to ooglywoogly,

who was happy to dismiss all this as "moronic claptrap" and compare me to Chamberlain - more than enough to get me riled.

[lonestarnot]

86. You prefer King of DU then?

[Taxloss]

87. Look,

I've got zero problem with opposing views - you'll notice several of them on this thread, and trust me, there are more. I was perfectly happy to ignore ooglywoogly's little flame until the Chamberlain gibe.

[lonestarnot]

89. ok fine. Go back up to the beginning of this thread and answer my inquiry

por favor re judicial review. #88

[Bucky]

50. Frogs actually don't sit quietly in slow boiling water. They jump out.

Thanks for the post. It's a keeper. I hope you put it on your journal--of which I am as of now a regular reader.

[struggle4progress]

51. " There are cases which cannot be overdone by language, and this is one.

There are persons, too, who see not the full extent of the evil which threatens them; they solace themselves with hopes that the enemy, if he succeed, will be merciful. It is the madness of folly, to expect mercy from those who have refused to do justice; and even mercy, where conquest is the object, is only a trick of war; the cunning of the fox is as murderous as the violence of the wolf, and we ought to guard equally against both."

Thomas Paine
The Crisis
December 23, 1776

[ooglymoogly]

54. chamberlain couldn't have said it better...nt

[Cameron27]

56. Thank you Taxloss...excellent post n/t

[readmoreoften]

57. Sorry, but this is just pure silliness.

I'm, frankly, sick of this absurd notion that because a few relatively inconsequential people can still speak we live in a free society. In fact, that is about the only reason they are still allowed to speak: because as long as Keith Olbermann can rant and Chomsky isn't in prison, a portion of people on the left will poo-poo the portion who wants to take more serious action against the regime. If I have a "freedom" it's because that freedom will not interfere with their plans to steal, murder, and become more powerful.

There are people in detention facilities around the world being tortured by our government-- right now. And now the men in black masks have our nod of approval. No, they're not going to put Molly Ivins or Michael Moore into a camp. What a dumb move that'd be. They'll start with permanent residents--especially Muslims. That might be abstract to many people in America, but I live in NYC and that means that they might potentially detain-- indefinitely, without recourse-- my friends and neighbors. Then they'll move on to the activist kids in NYC, the more radical world-can't-wait folks, especially those with socialist ties. They might stop there. They might continue. More catalyzing events might have to take place for the crackdown to get worse.

Funny that you're chiding people for foolishly comparing the Administation to the Nazis, because you're falling into the exact same fallacy. Just because things aren't happening "exactly as they happened in Nazi Germany" does not mean that we haven't crossed the threshhold into pure fascism. In other words, just because we don't live in a state identical to Nazi Germany, doesn't mean that we don't live in a fascist state that is becoming more oppressive every day.

Stop comparing us to the Nazis in order to deny how bad it really is-- maybe not for you or your kind, but it's pretty bad for me and mine.

[StellaBlue]

59. You've said it.

The Nazis started with the "others", too. That's the point.

[sweetheart]

62. Yes, british framing presumes universal entitlement

Britain does not have the concept of a person without a home, or a person
without healthcare, homeless people are responsibly housed by the state,
and in a system where economic entitlement is all, people are stripped
of their time, scurrying for work just to pay what is an entitlement
for others. And those persons do not have the time to speak up,
often not as well the education, but mostly the time due to economic
pressure that is quite harsh. People are afraid for their jobs when
everything can be taken away and reposessed from the wife to the garbage
disposal when you're in hock up to your eyeballs. We as a country are
so deeply in debt, in such a dangerously imbalanced economic situation,
it is disturbing, and it is not the political that is the problem, or as only
a manifestation of business agencies that are hidden and unreported
by the 4th estate... and unreported by workers for fear of losing the
job and the right to exist.

When there is no right to exist, we are all just prisoners in a giant
prison country where we are constantly shown gunmen and armed policmen to
imprint the pathos of war on to the populace ruthlessly, using a not-as-yet
understood mix of criminal voices that will unravel over time as the
"bush conspiracy."

[countryjake]

63. Announcing a Day of Mass Resistance: OCTOBER 5, 2006

BRING THIS TO A HALT!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

67. You can have a really terrible RW dictatorship that isn't Nazi

I recently saw a film called Condor: The First War on Terror, which tells about the dictatorships that reigned in the most prosperous and literate societies in South America.

I highly recommend it to anyone who doesn't remember that era or who wasn't paying attention to foreign affairs at the time.

[Poll_Blind]

68. I agree. Well and simply said. n/t

PB

[earth mom]

73. The parallels are there and they are quite chilling.

Those in denial are not gonna know what hit them soon enough; when * never leaves office...

[Taxloss]

75. See point #21. n/t

[readmoreoften]

108. Well, I largely agree with that point. Except for the idea that we are

only in a "semi-fascist" state. We are in a fully-fascist state and the "freedoms" we enjoy are not much more than bread and circuses; I suppose it all boils down to whether or not we still have elections. The overwhelming circumstantial evidence leads me to believe that we are not; I suppose we'll find out soon.

I understand the frustration over the "we're in a fascist state and there's nothing we can do" meme. But I am personally more irritated when folks propose pollyanna solutions. Yes, getting out the vote will help the Democrats win-- if there's no voter fraud. Yes, donating to a candidate and joining various organizations are important. This are the *minimum* that we should all be doing all the time anyway. But this juggernaut is not going to end because the PFAW reaches 200,000 members. Even if the Democrats win big in November (frankly, it seems like a fantasy to me) the media will still say Dems are "weak on terror". Then what we'll hear is "Wait until 2008! Then we'll vote against torture and restore habeus corpus!" (And that's IF we win 2006. And that's IF the elections aren't stolen.)

I am most frustrated lately with the fantasies of easy revolution; that Americans wouldn't "stand" for this. We're standing for it. In fact, it's becoming what we stand for.

[lonestarnot]

84. Here here!

[BlooInBloo]

60. Tell that to melodramatic Digby.

Sheesh. DUers - what geniuses. They strawman a situation by refuting an idiotic claim (Nazism), which in their genius minds allows them to ignore the stronger claim (which they're too scared to directly confront): Fascism.

Genius.

Give a good answer to Digby, and you might have something worth listening to.

[Taxloss]

76. An idiotic claim, maybe, but one that was made two or three times on DU

yesterday alone, including in one thread that made it to three times as many recs as this. Not Fascism - Nazism. I'd suggest reading what I said to Toqueville in reply #21.

[lonestarnot]

93. An idiotic claim?

There is that language again, superior adjective.

[Taxloss]

96. I was quoting the person I was responding to!

S/he said "idiotic claim" - I agreed.

[Swamp Rat]

64. Here ya go:

[MrSlayer]

65. These are the same people that funded the Nazis.

It may not be Nazism but destroying this country and establishing globalization is still the goal. And it's the same people that have done it in the past, the same families are bankrolling the operation. I know a lot of people dismiss the New World Order as nonsense but it's absolutely true and it's absolutely happening. Once they dismantle the auto industry the complete offshoring of all our manufacturing industries will be complete and it will send us further down the slide into a third world country. Our nation is in very serious trouble and unless we can get some people back into power that actually represent the citizenship and embrace the ideals of FDR we're dead because the people there now, democrats and republicans alike, either have no idea what the hell is really happening or are hastening this outcome. It isn't "Nazism" but it's the same exact thing in another flavor. It is very nearly too late.

[lonestarnot]

99. Yes they did. Who cares what we call the horse we're riding. I want off

now!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

66. Yes, not all fascists are Nazis

As one who reads a lot of history, it annoys me no end when people toss around the epithet "Nazi" too easily. I suspect that the use of this term occurs mainly because Nazi Germany is the only right-wing dictatorship that everyone has heard of.

Many governments in modern times have adopted police state techniques while pampering the rich, but only one was Nazi.

I find more parallels with the Argentine and Uruguayan dictatorships of the 1970s, which most people have completely forgotten or never heard of. In both cases, populaces of well-educated, prosperous countries gave up their civil liberties with little fuss because their governments shrieked about a threat of terrorism. The alliance with ultra-conservative religion, on the other hand, is more reminiscent of Franco's Spain.

[Karenina]

71. My elderly German neighbors

who lived through the Third Reich, who 5 years ago looked at me askance as a rash young kid slinging epithets, NOW use the comparison without reservation.

[NNN0LHI]

69. OK, but what are we doing with all the dead bodies?

Any ideas?

Don

[Amonester]

102. So far, the Reptiles call them "collateral damages" and they...

manage to get away with it this way (so far)...

[Jcrowley]

92. Let's not bicker over who tortured who

and what name we gave it....

But never mind. Not only are most Americans blissfully unaware of the immense peril they face—thanks to a complicit and soft-pedal corporate media—many of them faithfully support the fascist state, as the German people did before them.

Shirer writes: “The overwhelming majority of Germans did not seem to mind that their personal freedom had been taken away, that so much of culture had been destroyed and replaced with a mindless barbarism…. The Nazi terror in the early years affected the lives of relatively few Germans and a newly arrived observer was somewhat surprised to see that the people of this country did not seem to feel that they were being cowed…. On the contrary, they supported it with genuine enthusiasm. Somehow it imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence and an astonishing faith in the future of their country.”

It will be too late on the day a predatory bureaucrat from the Ministry of Homeland security steals your land or appropriates your wife—a fate inflicted upon countless bovine vassals by rulers and their henchmen down through the dark shadow of history.