It's NOT defeatism. It's REALISM.

[helderheid]

People, the elections of 2000, 2002, and 2004 were stolen. The media didn't report it. Why on earth do you think we'll take back the houses in 2006 and the presidency in 2008? Some say, "We'll take it to the streets!" - we've BEEN taking it to the streets. The "liberal media" doesn't report it most of the time and when they do, they downplay the numbers.

They just legalized torture, people. They made it legal to call you and I enemy combatants - the very people who are defending the Constitution and the ideals this country were founded on.

800 + signing statements, people.

This isn't defeatism, it's realism. What we've been doing is NOT working. The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

What to do? I'm not sure. I'm a young mom and my priority is my family right now. If that means I extricate myself from all political groups, then so be it.

I'm sure I'll be flamed but I feel that unless the SCOTUS shuts down this last decision about habeas corpus and torture, USA has died and this is an official dictatorship.

[bowens43]

1. No, it's mealy mouthed , cowardly defeatism.

[helderheid]

2. what the hell do you suggest?

I'm all ears

[libnnc]

5. Their only suggestion is to call you a coward.

My ignore list has grown exponentially in the last 2 days.

[Individualist]

19. Exactly!

Mine is also growing.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Liberal Dose]

51. Ditto

My ignore list is now longer than my buddylist. That's sad.

[MrCoffee]

8. It's calling you a "cut and run" Democrat. It's the newest fad.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

68. bizarre: this post which accuses DUers of being rove operatives stands

while my post questioning it is removed.


bizarro world.

[Orsino]

69. 'Defeatocrat' is old hat...

...easily debunked long ago, if it ever needed to be. Analysis of political tactics isn't in itself defeatist or cowardly, and I see nothing of that sort in the original post.

Knee-jerk name calling may work for the GOP, but we shouldn't stoop to their level.

[mogster]

3. It's just incomprehensible what they did

Here's my comment:

[NotGivingUp]

4. You won't get flamed from me. I feel the same way. n/t

[Webster Green]

6. Keep it simple. Just stay registered and vote straight dem...

Forget about all the rest and live your life politics free, except for voting.

Thats my advice to you, though I couldn't do it myself. I'm too much of a news/politics junkie.

Voting dem is the only chance at change, though I don't think much will change, even if we win a legislative body or two.

Too many wussies!

[MrCoffee]

9. From whence does your confidence in the electoral system spring?

Do tell.

[Webster Green]

73. I have almost NO confidence in the electoral system...

I still think voting dem is the only chance we have at saving our country, though I think it is unlikely to happen.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. No flame from here.

If I was young, with a family to worry about, I'd be doing now what I think I would have done in Germany in the 30s - make arrangments with all due haste to get the fuck out.

That not being the case, I'll stick it out. We may yet pull back from the brink (tho I honestly think we've just stepped over it) and my kids are grown - I couldn't protect them now even if they wanted me to.

I hate living in interesting times.

[KingFlorez]

10. And here we go again

All some people want to do is sit around and say the election will be stolen, so we should just sit down and not even try. That is defeatism and just an excuse not to fight.

[helderheid]

15. I didn't say don't try. I said what we're doing isn't working.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

62. What do you recommend?

We know it's isn't working already.

[mtnsnake]

20. Amen, I couldn't agree more. nt

[BeFree]

47. Well, it is quite obvious

... that neither one of you know who you are talking too. Helderheid has been banging these boards about election reform for years now. She has made a huge effort, and you should thank her.

What I notice is that the two of you have zero crediblity in the election reform department when compared to Helderheid.

Her she states the obvious: that this turn for the worst comes on the heels of the previous worst turn, and that without the people rising up to protect themselves, she can no longer continue to stick her neck out. And what do the two of you do? Claim she is not a fighter, when the truth is she is the fighter and most everyone else are the slackers.

[helderheid]

48. way to make me cry!

Thank you - that was really touching! :hug:

[Just-plain-Kathy]

11. No flames here either.

Democracy IS a thing of the past.

We’re losing our freedoms. We need true leaders to stand up and get themselves heard.

:cry:

[leftchick]

12. you are so right hh!

I am a mother of young children and I want to leave this country for their safety and well being. That is the only solution I can see for my family.

[helderheid]

79. I wish I could leave - my husband is in denial

[specimenfred1984]

13. Here's what I do

I tell every single repuke off that I ever see. I make fun of them for how stupid they are, I tell them they disgust me personally, I give my repuke neighbors dirty looks everytime I see them.

I was fcking fed up when the fake war started and it's only gotten worse since then.

[knowbody0]

14. It's a temporary feeling helderheld

It is because of your family that you will not stop the fight against the insanity. It is a "nothingness" they offer us which attempts to numb us of the attrocities committed in our name. Raising your babies to feel and to love and to respect only those deserving their respect is your battlefield.

[TahitiNut]

16. It's now fully an autocracy ... NOT a democracy. Democracy is dead.

This is, without question, fascism. When individual liberties and indiviudal human rights are held hostage and sold wholesale by a priesthood of the establishment elite who proclaim themselves 'guardians' of the many against the predations of a vanishingly small number of (unidentified) people who pose some threat that's dwarfed by the everyday 'threats' of medical errors in hospitals and deaths on our highways, we are truly and completely FUCKED by the fickle finger of fascism.

No longer must we be found guilty by a jury of our peers to be deprived of our civil liberties. We have surrendered those 'freedoms' for which we're supposedly hated ... and the hatred spreads like a plague.

[seabeyond]

17. your post is realitstic. realism. you are talking the issue

and you are looking for the solution, not just in frustration attacking the dem, the ONE group that is with us. we need the dem the dem needs us. we are AGAINST the media, and the repug and the people that are allowing election stolen and torture to be inacted in our name.

you combined two different issues

you post has a real point

others i have seen here do NOT. are simply harming our effort as much as media and crooked repug

[ProgressiveFighter]

24. yep

[Individualist]

18. You're right, helderheid

It is realism. Optimism at a time like this is more related to denial.

[PATRICK]

21. Forget the isms and look to the fighting

Bush has been moved toward blatant dictatorship by a combination of conscienced, correct opposition, personal failure, failure of the machine, and notably fear of the people and its laws and institutions. The power he has he exercises in this way because there is no victory over human sanity without driving the entire framework of civilization completely mad. In the process, in the test, all weaknesses- of which there always will be a sufficient abundance- have gone down in flames to prevent this abuse of usurped power. The corruption and fascism would have happened anyway, in silent mode with utter disregard
and if successful, with more public acceptance and self-perpetuating "winning".

Dictatorship laid bare is up against the slow, presently powerless and semi-brainwashed American public, like some mammoth drama with the issue in doubt. What is NOT in doubt is the necessity for each party to
go on. Like can be like a morality play, the expected conclusions less important than the intervening pain and trials. But we never knew we were going to win both world wars or survive the Depression or win the Revolution. We forget it was always conceivable and sometime hung on a hair that right might not prevail. Is that relevant? Knowing one must win is a great help. Losing nerve is always a danger for the ones holding all the right cards.

Surrendering on this scale is not an option. The stakes for victory are the lives of billions and the freedom and sanity of all. If someone needs extra bravery and more people than usual let's find it. And screw the isms all of them that get in the way.

We'll find a way to save civilization.

[The_Mule]

29. Damn!

That's a good post!

[MamaBear]

22. No flames here, either.

In fact, :hug:.

I'm in no physical shape to "hit the streets" these days, and I'm not sure what good it would do. I've seen this country slip from effective one-party rule to virtual one-party rule. If the opposition has no power, there is no opposition.

I don't know what to do, either. It is obvious now that the Democrats in Congress are more afraid of Rover and his polaroids and his dossiers than they are of us.

On the other hand, if a real opportunity shows up, I'm counting on myself and others like me to grab it and act on it. But to fix this nightmare via electoral politics? Personally, I don't see how this is going to happen, given the state we are in today.

Courage.

[ProgressiveFighter]

25. sigh

[Bonobo]

26. Mexico, mexico, mexico, mexico. It can be done. Theoretically.

[helderheid]

28. what can be done? Didn't they just have an election stolen?

[Bonobo]

31. Please see this post.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2256462&mesg_id=2256462

[omega minimo]

30. Time to use our purchasing power

[liberal1973]

32. Well

Well I'm going to continue to fight for my country and I'm going to vote Democratic in November.

The thing that went on yesterday and for the last number of years makes me want to continue to fight more.

[helderheid]

33. I'm still voting as well. Absentee paper ballot but I have no confidence.

[Lerkfish]

34. no flames here. you make a very valid point: current strategies are

ineffective because they DEPEND on this country being a functional democracy instead of a dictatorship.
ONce they made torture legal and suspended habeas corpus, this became the tipping point beyond which normal strategies no longer apply.
They now have the alleged authority to round up each and every democrat or dissenter and imprison them without charge, trial or access to legal counsel indefinitely.
And now we KNOW why halliburton was quietly building 800 "detention" camps around the us.
and now we KNOW why the air force secretary was talking about using crowd control microwaves on AMERICAN citizens FIRST.

and now we KNOW what we only previously FEARED.

so, ok, this is now a de facto dictatorship and a fascist nation, which is ALREADY PREPARED to imprison and disappear protestors.

Current strategies will not work. IF we protest or voice dissent, we will only be put in concentration camps, never to be heard from again.
This will only succeed in thinning out our herd of real patriots, and leaving behind the backwash blind loyalists. The more that happens, the worse it will become.

we need to think longer term, to think survival and eventually victory. WE KNOW we cannot depend congress or any politician to protect us anymore.
Even the valiant ones who try are outnumbered and the majority are either the evil facsists or milquetoast enablers of the facsists.

Something I wrote after the election:
Posted by Lerkfish in General Discussion: Politics
Wed Jul 27th 2005, 12:11 AM
Winter is coming…

Do not be fooled….this election was a referendum on evil. And a majority of Americans have chosen in favor of it.
Electing Bush means a victory for war. A victory for torture. A victory for the slaughter of innocents, a victory for intolerance, fear, and hatred. A victory for lies and half-truths. A trumping of good by arrogance, hubris and self-entitlement.Winning the day has been fear and arrogance. Homophobics have throttled democracy to remain comfortable in their bigoted skins.

Winter is coming…

Do not be surprised. Now there is not even the fetter of re-election hopes to temper Bush and his cronies. They are free to commit crimes against the Geneva Convetion, against the international community, against those who dissent, against the American people….and the republican congress will dissolve any present investigations into outings of CIA agents, of Halliburton sweetheart deals, of Abu Ghraib hierarchy, of falsified intelligence, of incompetence at the highest levels. All will evaporate. Those who sought to hold the administration’s feet to the fire will find themselves shutout, harassed and shut down. The loudest voices will be stilled. The most persistent critics will be disappeared.

Winter is coming…

Do not be complicit. Whatever it takes, whatever you must sacrifice, do not contribute or assent to the coming soldiers of fascism. Do not agree with the disappearing of journalists, do not remain silent when protestors are shot and killed by police. Do not turn the channel when the authorities celebrate another protesor eliminated. Watch. Remember. We must always remember.

Winter is coming…

Do not agree to be the food for their war. Do not easily give in to the bloodlust for innocents. Do not buy into the lie of patriotism to further the goals of Corporate Greed. Remember that first you are Americans. Remember that first you are defenders of freedom, You are not accountants that dole out tiny portions of freedom according to your own stingy budget.
When in the mouth of war, remember that you are human. When in the belly of the beast, remember that God made you to live. Survive. Return to us, whole or broken, but return to us and teach us of the folly of war from the tears in your eyes, from the scars of your wounds, from the breaking of your heart.

Winter is coming…

Do not let worship of the administration pass your lips. Do not pretend to agree with insane policies to keep peace with others. Do not agree to the descending march of loss liberty. Do not go silent when you are taken. Do not be afraid to speak for others like you. Do not be afraid to wall up your houses and make hiding places. Do not fear to face evil, whose power derives from darkness. Shine a light instead and shove it in the face of evil. Expose it for what it is.

Winter is coming…

Time to prepare. Time to split the wood. Time to can the food. Time to insulate the shelters. Time to count what you hold dear and keep it close to you. Time to wear stronger coverings. Time to be like the snow fox and blend in when necessary. Your duty is to survive. This evil hopes to eliminate the sane. Do not be in the places they look. But always be looking for places they gather. Become agile. Become wary. Become cautious. Be resolved that your own survival is worth more than their defeat.

Winter is coming…

And the times will be hard. But we need you to survive.
Even if the antichrist should fool the elect, be not likewise deceived. God is not mocked, whatsoever you sow, that shall you also reap. Sow goodness, sow resolve, sow strength,. Winter is coming, but in the spring, that which you’ve sown will arise.

May God Bless America, in spite of itself. May God protect the rest of the world from what American has become.

Lerkfish

[helderheid]

35. incredible piece. It may be 80 outside but I'm feeling cold.

[LostinVA]

36. I call giving up without a fight to the bloody end defeatism

Knowing you may lose the fight is realism.

[Taxloss]

37. Hear hear. n/t

[glitch]

55. Good distinction. also "Save Despair for Better Times"

written on a wall by someone in far more desperate circumstances then we are at this point.

It ain't over til it's over, but if I had small kids I'd be exploring all options too. It's human nature to plan for their best chance at survival. Just keep up the fight no matter where you go, no matter how much the fight looks futile. And for what it's worth, I am actually optimistic that these people are exposing themselves to prosecution, a good thing, even the Vichy Dems exposure is good, we know who they are now.
And think of what frightened mice they must be to pass this legislation. The frightened don't win long-term, everybody knows that! :hug:

[StellaBlue]

38. I intend to leave the country

if at all possible.

[LostinVA]

39. I could leave the country, but have decided to stay... for now

[StellaBlue]

43. Can I have your ticket?

:shrug:

[LostinVA]

46. It's an EU passport... and unfortunately they are non-transferable!

[helderheid]

50. I've tried to convince my husband that we return to Europe.

[Orsino]

70. I intend to do so.

There are all sorts of places to fight the good fight, and a country embracing tyranny may not be the best choice for everyone.

[mom cat]

40. I do not have the answers, but I know that quitting is not one of them.

The US is alive in your heart and mine, so it is not dead yet!

[blm]

42. Take the battle to where we SHOULD HAVE TAKEN IT years ago - TV stations

and studios in NY and DC and LA and Atlanta. Constant storm. A Camp Casey style marathon protest outside each network.

NO MORE STATE RUN TELEVISION.

DON'T TAKE IT ANYMORE - SHOVE THEIR CORPORATE LOYALTY IN THEIR FACES.

[helderheid]

49. that's not a bad idea but I hope they don't round us up and throw away the

key. The media is a HUGE part of this crisis.

[Bluerthanblue]

44. no flames here either, just

tears, the numbness that keeps one from acting out in agony- or from giving in completely to despair-
waiting for the stages of grief that seem all too familiar to show up and wash over us....

and wanting to sleep, for a long long time.

The big news here is that they made a Barbie doll who comes with a dog that poops- you feed the dog the poop pellets, push the dogs tail, and Barbie gets to use her pooper scooper to clean up after her pet... some people feel it's totally inappropriate for kids, some feel it teaches pet "responsibility".... but no one has an opinion on the REAL WORLD where torture is now LEGAL- and the reality that america is now an enemy of its own citizens....

:cry:

[gorgan]

45. [as an aside]

> The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result.

This is a popular sentiment, but I believe it's not that insightful. Sometimes the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again realizing the result will be no different, but being unable to stop. Other modes of insanity take the form of doing the same thing over and over without any awareness of a result, same or different.

[hunter]

52. Canada looks nice. And from there a greater world beacons.

My ancestors left Europe when it started turning shit. Moving on is in my genes.

Until then, from where the sun now stands, I will fight, until I fight no more forever.

[patcox2]

53. It doesn't have to be one or the other; it could be paranoid hysteria,

or emotional over-reaction, or any number of other things of a similar nature.

[Vidar]

54. Wonderful post, helderheid. Highly recommended

[CrispyQ]

56. Oh helderheid, I'm in tears today!

My right wing mother, who I felt was slowly coming around, called this morning & wanted to discuss some political issues. I should have had more patience but I just wasn't in the mood. I told her the America I grew up in was dead. That our demise started 12/12/2000 & yesterday they just stuck a fork in what was known as the great American democratic experiment. We are no longer a nation of laws & we have lowered our standards to the level of uncivilized barbarians. I told her I loved her but that at the moment I was so sad & I simply could not talk to someone who voted for these assholes twice.

I don't want to piss her off. It has been so wonderful to see her starting to come around. But I wonder if only she had come around 2 years earlier, would it have made a difference? Will I ever be able to let go of my anger at her voting for these jerks? Will I always be pissed at the backwash for their part in the demise of our beloved country?

:cry: :cry: :cry:

:grr: :grr: :grr:

[nolabels]

57. I am not waiting for any election (especially the stolen kind)

Also I am not sure that anybody has thought up all the answers for dealing with it. To fix a problem you must first identify(as well as possible)all the elements that went into the equation of it. Drastic or non-drastic action is only one part of any consideration. Our Friends south of the border have been dealing with government corruption for decades but all are mostly starting to get a handle on it in convincing terms. This because of a dogged stick-to-it they have. Maybe we should also adopt some of their tactics

[walldude]

58. They cannot be stopped short of a revolution.

I've been saying that for years. They obviously have things under control on their end. I mean, they violate the Constitution, The Declaration of Independence, The Geneva Conventions and everything that made this country what it was. They do it happily without restraint, if you dare to speak against them you are shouted down in a storm of "patriotism". You are called, stupid, liberal, traitor, etc, etc. They create nothing but destruction, death, pain and suffering, and they get off on it. People say the way to defeat them is to get out and vote for Dems. Sorry, the Dems have done such a poor job that anytime a Dem makes even a very minor stand they are blown up into hero status. Speaking the truth does not make you a hero. Hero's would be risking their necks to get out information that could bring these people down. Obviously the neo-cons aren't smart enough to cover their tracks, there are e-mail trails and paperwork trails everywhere, documenting the crimes of the neo-cons. Why aren't they in prison? Everyone is afraid to stand up to them. Sure we are here on DU screaming to the high heavens but not many of us are in a position to make any real changes. As for me my children are nearing draft age, I am making contingency plans to leave the country if the draft is reinstated. Sure I'll go out and vote for Dems, but I don't believe it will make a difference anymore.

On edit response to #1: Don't say " No, it's mealy mouthed , cowardly defeatism." unless you have the fucking balls to say it to my face. Disagreeing is one thing but I expect more than freeperish name calling on DU. If you think I'm a coward than come say it to my face so we can see who the real coward is. Jerk.

[helderheid]

59. Post 1 comes from someone not dealing with reality. Thaks for this post.

[Vidar]

60. I've had poster #1 on ignore for several months now, boviously with

good reason.

[helderheid]

61. Notice that I got no response when I asked what they suggested.

[Vidar]

63. In the words of Sir Robin's minstels: "Run away! Run away!"

[walldude]

65. Yep.. calls you names because you have no solution

then offers no solution of their own.. Wait a sec.. is that you O Reilly?

[helderheid]

66. LOL!

[Ksec]

64. Well, when 70% of Iraqis want us dead its over

That stat is a killer to these people who live in denial.

I mean cmon. 70% of the people were dying for say its OK to kill us? Its a done deal/

[Maven]

67. Another reason the detainee bill scares me re: 2006 and 2008

It would seem logical that if the GOP thought that GW Boob would face impeachment proceedings after November, they'd want to pull back on impeachable offenses, no?

Why continue to be so brazen? Why continue to undermine the Constitution, to flaunt the executive's new kingly status?

Could it be because the GOP has no intention of losing in '06? Why are major networks now reporting on the "shrinking" margin between Dem and Repuke poll numbers for the midterms?

[bluestateguy]

71. Then shutup, stay home & don't vote. Get out of the way & leave us alone.

You are IN THE WAY.

I really hope you don't live in a state with a close Senate race.

[helderheid]

76. Give me a break. If you knew me, you'd know I tell everyone to VOTE ANYWAY

It's YOU with your head in the sand who is the problem. La la la la laaaaa... oh they won't steal it THIS time!

[BeHereNow]

72. You KNOW how I feel about this subject.

The fucking denial and political ignorance about what is happening
has my head exploding on an hourly basis.
Hugs and love to you-
BHN

[bonito]

74. Time for a break

We all need it now and then, your hearts in the right place, find and smell the roses and show them to your children. Peace

[Generator]

75. I could have written that post word for word!

Someone asked the other night, should we throw in the towel? I said, do whatever you have to do. Call it whatever you want. Believe, don't believe, but don't lie to yourself that there is a chance in hell that the representives we have are going to save your life. That's up to us. I don't know if that's a fast boat out of here or something else. But this denial that EVEN with a majority, the Dems we have are going to stand up to these thugs and bring back Democracy is a pipe dream. They have shown us over and over they lack the right stuff.

But I do love dreamers. If all I have to do is vote-I can do that. SURE, Mr. Pitt straight Dem ticket, it's the least I can do. Fingers crossed.

But if my cynicism is rewarded there is no..."Now, on to 2008". "Hillary has momentum" "McCain isn't as bad as Bush" (He's worse to me..imagine a smart fascist..shivers...)

Some time you gotta call the old trowel a trowel.

[lonestarnot]

77. fascist fuckers have taken over. I'm standing by.

[helderheid]

78. :(

:hug:

[lonestarnot]

80. You hang in there helderheid! Quiet before the storm I see coming

to see their undoing. :hug:

[mhatrw]

81. Please don't give up.

The victory is in the struggle.

We are making a difference. We must keep fighting.

Al Lewis (Grandpa Munster) has some insights for you on this:

http://mediafilter.org/shadow/S43/S43grand.html

[helderheid]

82. please give those with little kids some slack. Please - we're scared