Here is my take on reason Sherrod Brown voted for torture

[liberal N proud]

he has to debate DeWine this Sun. on Meet the press, and this takes away their talking point
DeWine can't say "I voted to fight terrorists and Sherrod didn't" they voted the same.

They most likely had a commercial all ready to attack him and all his little talking points in a row ready to attack him and now they have to start over.

I feel this is the reason after talking with people working for the campaign. I am still upset that he voted that way and will express my opinion with the people inside the campaign this weekend when I see them.

Let's hope for the best in November and then maybe we can correct the wrongs of this corrupt immoral regime.

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. Sorry.

But any Dem that votes against the Constitution and The Bill of Rights lacks a spine. Full stop.

Fuck the political calculus on this.

[WillYourVoteBCounted]

2. he is spineless

he just voted in favor of torture

[HereSince1628]

3. Screw THAT! Having a meme to triangulate on your opponent

is a BULLSHIT EXCUSE for throwing over Constitutional protections that were born in the Magna Carta.

How far fucking backward are people willing to regress just to get elected?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Robbien]

4. Sherrod doesn't have a mouth?

If DeWine says "I voted to fight terrorists and Sherrod didn't" , Sherrod cannot respond "DeWine voted against America and voted to torture prisoners which puts our military and constitution at risk"?

[MrCoffee]

5. Do you think that's a valid reason?

I'm not picking a fight, i'm genuinely curious. I don't think it's any form of excuse for Democrats to say that they voted to eviscerate the Constitution because it makes it easier to campaign.

It would be easier to campaign if those pesky reporters weren't allowed to say bad things about them, too. Would you support a Democrat who voted to repeal the First Amendment?

[liberal N proud]

11. NO, I am still going to express my opinion in a very strong way

I don't know if Sherrod will be at the event this weekend or not, but his staff will be there and I will give them a piece of my mind on the matter.

I will ask what Sherrod will do when bu$h turns the law on us.

[MrCoffee]

12. Thank you. Your OP wasn't clear (it's totally possible that i missed it)

[Leopolds Ghost]

17. Remind Sherrod of Sir Thomas More.

"You put too much faith in the law to protect us from ________".

MORE: "Would you cut down every law in England to get at the Devil?"

"Of course."

MORE: "And when he turns on you... Where then will you hide??"

[BurtWorm]

6. What if DeWine asks why he said he thought his party was wrong on this?

That's what I would ask him if I had the chance.

Now he'll have an idea what it felt like to be John Kerry after IWR. It didn't have to be this way.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

7. How about responding with...

"DeWine voted to shred the Bill of Rights. He voted to treat suspected terorrists, and I emphasize, suspected terrorists, worse than we treated proven serial killers like Ted Bundy and Jeffery Dahmer. This move had nothing to do with fighting terrorism and everything to do with letting a bunch of sickos get their jollies by abusing prisoners, who may or may not be guilty. Remember that almost all the prisoners at Abu Ghraib were later proven innocent. Now the Republicans are saying that it's okay for interrogators to do the kinds of things we saw in the pictures of Abu Ghraib and WORSE."

In other words, how about going on the attack for once?

[glitch]

13. EXACTLY. He could have taken it to him on national tv. But no. nt

[Leopolds Ghost]

20. Can't take the fight to the enemy if you're uncertain about your beliefs

And that's the situation here -- politicians so afraid of losing that they question their political beliefs.

[glitch]

29. Gawd. To be uncertain about torture and habeas corpus...

no wonder sleep meds are so popular in DC. How utterly loathsome.

[bullimiami]

8. so what does he have to run on now.

"dewine likes torture so do I"
"bush breaks the law and I agree that we should change it to keep them out of jail"

thats bologna. he could have had a real issue to stand on, now all he can say is vote for me even if there isnt much difference between us.

[MrCoffee]

10. "even if there isn't much difference"

I never, ever thought that, until today. When both parties are willing to surrender the Constitution, what difference is there that matters?

[bullimiami]

15. i was willing to look the other way and vote democrats

even when they made heinous decisions. no more.

i cant vote for someone who i genuinely believe to be immoral and unwilling to stand for what is right.

i would vote for kerry again, happily for gore or for hillary. but not for bill nelson, never again.

[Spider Jerusalem]

9. Any reason is a bad one.

You can't really justify it. A 'yes' vote just indicates that the politician voting for it is a worthless, unprincipled fuck. And anyone who thinks it's remotely justifiable is a bloody moron. "Oh, see, he HAD to vote yes, or he'd look SOFT ON TERROR"...Christ on a pogo stick, but I'm SICK of hearing weak excuses and justifications for BAD and WRONG decisions.

[VP505]

16. I agree however

I wouldn't say it quite that way. If a Democratic Senator won't stand up for out basic Constitutional rights, what will they stand up for?

[Leopolds Ghost]

24. Say there are 51 Senate Dems and five refuse to revisit this

or the tax cuts, or NSA spying, etc. etc.

Will Sen. Brown stand up to them on principle, or will he say "I can't afford to look foolish against bipartisan opposition, we'll just have to live with the consequences of Bush's policies"

[Rose Siding]

14. Approving torture just to defeat a talking point is despicable

-and that's just ONE aspect of this hideous legislation. It trashes habaes corpus and, worse, it muddies the definition of just who can be detained (virtually forever) as an enemy combatant.

Brown himself said something about the reason being that this doesn't apply to POWs but to "terrorists". Whoops! lost that whole "innocent until proven" concept right there in the first weasel words out of his mouth.

I will, as you suggest, continue to hope for a Nov that may lead to correcting the wrongs of "this corrupt immoral regime", and that just ratchets up my anger at Brown for causing me to wonder -even for a moment!- if it may rather lead another regime just as corrupt. How can Brown, who has packaged himself as a progressive! even try to justify his approval for torture?, No wonder Americans are cynical!

[Leopolds Ghost]

23. Remember how Brown criticized Hackett for being insufficiently progressive

Hadn't got his ticket punched with all the right constituencies?

What about the civil liberties constituency? Not enough money to Brown's campaign? Can you imagine what'd happen to him if he came out against Roe, or, um, against... what other issues are left that the center left haven't been compromised away in order to "avoid being crushed" since Newt took power?

[orwell]

18. Rove thanks everyone...

...for buying into his distraction tactics.

Predictable responses are his specialty...

[Solly Mack]

19. So maybe he can send those being a tortured a letter explaining

how bad he feels about their pain and suffering but that they are being tortured so he can be re-elected to...what?!?!?!?!... end the torture?



"Dear Nameless, Faceless Detainee with no rights (even though America once said you did have rights),

Sorry about the torture - but unless I vote for torture I can't be re-elected and if I'm not re-elected I can't stop the Bush Regime and if I can't stop the Bush Regime then I can't stop your torture. So, really, my vote for torture is a good thing. Just bear with the torture a little longer. Think of it this way - my vote for torture and the eradication of due process is really a vote for democracy.

Just thinking of you.

Best regards!! (and try not to die)

Sherrod -I was for torture before I was against it- Brown.

P.S. Could you pass my regards on to the other detainees in the "aggressive interrogation" (wink-wink) line? Thanks! I promise to hold the Bush Regime Accountable!!"

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. Stop it, you're torturing me!

What are the ethical beliefs of Dems and moderate Repubs that voted for this despite qualms? Are they of the opinion that if it's a person they hate -- a terrorist -- that some kind of relative, utilitarian morality applies? That there is no "universal morality" "karma" or what have you to appeal to? No higher standard? They need to read "Critique of Pure Reason" by Kant before they continue down this "practical" road they're on.

[Solly Mack]

22. I'm not sure I want to know what's behind their "values"

I do know the people that voted for this horror have gone some place I can't go.

Same for those that can rationalize this vote.

[Virginia Dare]

25. Yeah but...

why can't he educate the voters to the fact that this was a "pro-torture" bill and not an "anti-terror" bill?

Are the voters of Ohio really that stupid?

[mdmc]

26. maybe he can flip flop next year

and repeal this mistake. :shrug:

[MadHound]

27. It is past time that our Democratic "leaders"

Stop worrying more about keeping their job than doing their job. If this indeed is the rationale behind Brown's vote, then quite frankly he doesn't deserve to stay in office.

And supposedly Brown was the "better" candidate than Hackett:eyes:

[ProgressiveEconomist]

28. This vote was a pure campaign-season Rovian trap. Why get yourself

caught in a trap? It's much better to steal the bait and use it to set your own multiple traps for Republicans. IMO, that's what crossover Dems did in voting for final passage of the torture bill, after fighting it all the way to the finish line.

There was only one Republican (Chafee-RI) who crossed over, while 10 Democrats did (see http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00259 ). Most of the 10 presumably wanted to ward off campaign ads on this issue during the next 38 days. But Lautenberg (D-NJ) is not running for re-election this year, is so old he may never run again, and is just as progressive as Ted Kennedy. Why did he vote for the torture bill? I believe the bill was a campaign-season trap, and Lautenberg saw the trap and helped disable it to benefit Democrats up for re-election.

My theory is that, on his own or prompted by Minority Leader Reid, Lautenberg wanted to prevent Dubya from saying he got his bill through on almost a strict party-line vote, despite a solid wall of Democratic "whiners and obstructionists".

After fighting torture all the way through to the last amendment, when passage has become inevitable, crossover voting for a horrible bill may be good politics at election time. Had this vote occurred more than two months before a crucial election, Lautenberg IMO would have voted Nay with most of Democrats, and so would most of the other 9 crossovers.

Reid gave up the chance of a filibuster in order to get Republicans on record voting against sunset provisions and other amendments that would have mitigated harm to the Constitution (see http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00255 and the top of http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_menu_109_2.htm (1 of 17) <9/29/2006 5:45:04 PM> ). These roll-calls are Democratic traps for Republicans during the next 38 days, and Republicans foolishly stepped right into all of them.