My best friend was the lone voice of sanity in her college class yesterday

[StellaBlue]

My best friend - age 27 - is going back to school to get a second degree because, like most of the people we know, she can't make more than $12 an hour with her original BA.

So she's taking remedial science classes and a few other "basics" at the local community college.

Yesterday in her government class, the instructor opened a discussion about recent political/legislative events. She is the only "mature" (haha) student in the class. The others are all fresh out of high school, or perhaps 20. They have diplomas, but there are no real criteria for admission - these are average kids. I say kids. They can vote. :scared:

The instructor told the class about the torture bill, suspension of habeas corpus, etc., as they had just been studying the Constitution and basics of US government in class (makes me wonder how professors will teach it NOW - since it's all really just academic - just windowdressing). Apparently, my friend was the only person in the room of about 30 who thought there was anything wrong with the bill. Her classmates said things like, "Don't you want to catch the terrorists?!" (echoing my father's statements to me the other night, which I posted in a previous thread) and "They attacked us on 9/11 - dudes DESERVE to be tortured, yo."

This is what we are dealing with. These are people with high school diplomas, who are seeking degrees. They are of voting age.

I've said this in a couple of replies elsewhere today, but I really think that the majority of people - in general, but especially in America, for a variety of reasons, chiefly the dumbed-down school system and the lowest-common-denominator M$M - are idiots.

They are anti-intellectual, irrational, superstitious, violence-prone, chest-puffing, flag-waving, Bible-beating... idiots.

And there is nothing we can do about it.

The majority of Americans may now think Iraq was a mistake. The majority may disapprove of Bush. But they certainly didn't come to that conclusion the same way we did, by studying the issues, reading books, listening to educated and well-informed experts. They changed their minds because the media told them to. And they don't care about condoning torture or overturning the Constitution, because the media hasn't told them to. That's as far as their thought processes run, as far as their interest goes. Supersize it. Turn the channel. Girls gone wild. U-S-A! U-S-A!

See the movie Idiocracy if you are fortunate enough to have it playing in your city. If not, get it on DVD as soon as it comes out.

Right now, the European countries have a superior culture to our own. They are more thoughtful, more tolerant, more rational. But this will change. They are so tolerant that they are letting Islamic radicals who cannot coexist with democracy shout down their own values, and it will get worse over the next few decades. Then maybe another region of the world will be in the lead, will be the beacon of hope for human progress. I don't know. All I know is the mechanisms of our society have all conspired, largely purposefully as I see it (the Thugs want a dumbed-down populace), to make America a nation of backward-thinkers. And unless you understand and embracde the logic of rationality, free inquiry, and objective human values (e.g. torture is wrong, Leviticus is barbaric), you will never be won over.

We cannot bring most of these people to our side.

They are like medieval pilgrims (or modern ones), flocking to a shrine to see the charred foot of some saint, thinking it will heal them. They are like the Romans in the amphitheater, cheering on the lion as it diembowels the convict. They are like the militant Islamists, yelling "Death the America!" in the streets.

Yes, I have lost faith in them.

We still have to fight back, to keep speaking, to keep protesting. But realize that we are the minority, just like, at one time, the Sons of Liberty, or the abolitionists, or the suffragists, or the labor activitsts, or the civil rights marchers. The masses of stupid people (and I have given up on hoping they are only idiotic, uninformed - no, they are more than wilfully ignorant, they are stupid - they must be) were only won over to these causes when a critical mass was reached among the leaders and the media. They only got on the bandwagon when it was unstoppable, and then they thought they'd decided to, when really they were told to - by their preachers, by the journalists, by their president. And you can still find plenty of people today, here in America, who have not signed on to any of the human progress movements listed above!

Yet it's those of us who are informed and who are willing to fight for change who can slowly move everyone forward. So we have to keep on.

I know this post isn't totally coherent. I'm just thinking out loud. I have not re-read or edited, nor will I.

My main point is - people are stupid and luxuriate in their stupidity. And there is nothing we can do about it. When we change some things, they will come along for the ride.

[yurbud]

1. GOP emphasis on rote memorization in K-12 does this

and their gutting of education spending.

Were there any minority kids in the room? Anyone who has been hassled by the police has at least some understanding of why due process is important.

[StellaBlue]

7. yes, there were minorities

I am not sure of the demographic make-up of this particular class, but at this college it will have been fairly representative of our population, which has a large Hispanic and a smaller African-American minority. There will have been some frat daddies, too, though. You know, the ones, like their leader, who were too dumb to go straight to university.

[Dan]

66. sad smile.

I remember when we were young back during the era before & during the civil rights era, and there were the conversations that 'we' would be the conscience of white america. My dear friend, minorities are not obligated to be your conscience, you must find that within yourself.

If every minority in America decided to share with the majority culture what a threat this bill is to the Constitution, our rights as citizens, and the freedoms we enjoy - it would not be enough.

If the Democratic party does not take the Congress this year, I expect that Bush will next want death squads - and who is to stop them. Because this issue of liberty, freedom, democracy is not about the people, but rather this is about class.

And, if we, as a people, minority and majority do not wake up and understand what we are losing - then we have already lost.

We no longer have to fight in the middle east, because dear friend, our battle for our freedoms - at some point, we will realize that we must start here, and sadly, we may be running out of time. Even the freedom to post - a thought or an idea - that supports those things that Americans have fought and died for, even that right may be lost.

Yes, I find it will be interesting to see how Civics will be taught - and how the Constitution of the U.S. will be understood, and even more, I wonder will we will continue to speak of the 'Declaration of Independence', the Preamble to the Constitution. I wonder, what have we allowed these political leaders to create of our nation, this political class that we call Congress.

I am not as young as I used to be, so excuse the mistakes in this post, of this old country boy.

[Bill McBlueState]

2. great post!

You know what pisses me off the most about the type of student you mention? Not only do they lack critical thinking skills; they're too arrogant to accept that their professors might have something to teach them about critical thinking. They're just in college because it's what you do to get a job.

Good points about religious extremism, too. Critical thinking has a lot of enemies.

[Bill McBlueState]

8. to say a little more..

The best example I have was this great course I took as an undergrad to satisfy a humanities requirement. It was called "Contemporary Moral Problems." The professor really did his best to show us how to look objectively at controversial social issues. But there was a group of students in the class who were with Campus Crusade for Christ. Their attitude was basically, "I'm a Christian; what can a secular professor possibly teach me about morality?" The fuckers would sit there in class, reading irrelevant books, sleeping, or whispering.

[tbyg52]

61. Let's require a course...

... in "History and Moral Philosophy" (see Heinlein).

[mrreowwr_kittty]

9. Bingo

College is a brief obligation to be endured in order to get one's ticket punched.

[SharonAnn]

62. We're not in the "endarkenment". The period after the "enlightenment"

[Quixote1818]

3. Or as Lionel calls them: "Bar stool pundits" nt

[Dick Diver]

56. One of the more amusing posts of the day.

Since Lionel is one of the biggest "bar stool pundits" I've met, given he's on the bar stool at least 2 hours a day 7/7. Even funnier reading it 2 hours after I was in the bar with him, sitting only a few stools away.

[Quixote1818]

73. What bar was this? nt

[Dick Diver]

76. A Mid-Town West bar n/t

[Reverend_Smitty]

4. it's not just at the community colleges

I went to a full time 4 year university and heard such chestnuts like...the first amendment doesn't guarantee free speech (bangs head on desk) and the Civil War...didn't it end when we dropped the A-bomb? (bangs head on desk to a bloody pulp).

Problem is that people in this country have no sense of history, and if you don't know where you came from how can you have any idea how to go forward.

[StellaBlue]

10. oh, of course

I went to the University of Texas, which is now considered a major public university, like Michigan, if not yet Berkeley (though we do have more money than either! :) ). Most of my fellow students were, indeed, sheeple. Something like 18% are Greeks (in the Animal House sense, of course), if that's any indication. :eyes:

[mike_c]

5. sheeple....

Although it's a politically incorrect term, it is nonetheless an accurate description of many, perhaps the majority, of Americans. They get their information largely from the infotainment media, and form their world view upon that basis. They are information consumers at the end of a corporate production line, spoonfed product. They aspire to being the lowest common denominator. As awful as that sounds, it is broadly true. Sheeple.

[StellaBlue]

11. indeed

nice avatar

[eShirl]

6. How exactly did she respond to them? Did the instructor have any response

?

Don't keep us in suspense!

[StellaBlue]

12. she said

it was an outrage and that the Constitution has been overturned

but they didn't get it and shouted her down with their 9/11 bloodlust cries (not unlike what happened to me in a thread yesterday, right here on DU)

I don't know what the professor did, but my guess is, he was not shocked.

[leesa]

23. Americans have become frightened little bullies. So people were agreeing

with your father's point of view on this board? FRIGHTENING. What a bunch of weenies Americans are. I guess this is what Germans were in the early 1930s.

[StellaBlue]

24. no

not that thread

my thread about how I felt that this travesty was worse than 9/11 got a bunch of people all riled up because they thought I was trampling on the dead... the whole point is that now that there is no Constitution, they died in vain.

[CrispyQ]

78. It's why our government representatives lack spine.

They are merely a reflection of . . . us! ;)

[Mythsaje]

13. and yet

my 15--soon to be sixteen--year old niece gets it. As does my twelve year old son (who's primarily being raised by his mother).

Those who can see this stuff are the ones who actually THINK rather than those who operate mostly by reflex and instinct.

Torture doesn't work. So why are we pursuing it as a policy? To keep our own sadists happy?

An innocent is as likely to fall prey to them as a terrorist. MORE likely, considering their methods of screening detainees are, at best, questionable. If we torture an innocent, he will likely admit to being a terrorist, eventually, but he WILL NOT KNOW ANYTHING WE NEED TO KNOW. But the sadists will be happy.

I'm sure the witch hunters found LOTS of self-confessed witches. But how many were really witches? How many actually had sex with the devil?

ding-ding-ding. We have a winner. NONE! Zero. Zilch. Nada.

Maybe your friend's instructor should have found a way to make an example of how this will now work. Point at someone at random in the class. "We think s/he is a criminal. So we're going to torture him/her to find out for sure. He or she will point the finger at another one of you just to make it stop. Then we'll torture whoever s/he names. Eventually we'll have the whole class in detention and undergoing torture. And the criminal conspiracy will keep growing as other names are mentioned. It won't matter if you're innocent. Because you wouldn't have been accused if you were innocent. And, under torture, you will confess to whatever crimes we tell you to.

That's how it works. That's how it's ALWAYS worked.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Yes, that would be an excellent way to get the point across

I remember hearing Michael Parenti doing similar thought experiments in classes where students insisted that racism was a thing of the past.

He'd point to a white student and ask him to assume that some authorities came and said that he had accidentally been assigned to the wrong race and that he would have to live as a black man from now on. But to make up for the emotional shock, they would pay him a handsome sum of money. What money would be appropriate?

The student would usually name a price in the millions. When asked why, he would talk about ...the racism that African-Americans are subjected to.

On the post above, it is now believed that some of the accused witches may have been secret practitioners of pre-Christian pagan religions or herbal healing traditions, so in that sense, yes, they were "witches," but you're definitely right in that none of them had sex with the devil or flew around on broomsticks.

[Mythsaje]

31. Some few may have been pagans

but most, I believe, were probably just weird loners or widows with property the Church wanted or attractive young females the witch hunters enjoyed molesting.

The instructor in this tale may have been one of us, but you can't approach this subject directly with a lot of these folks. You have to find a way to get them to step out of their box-like lives and project them into another viewpoint.

A mock trial might be an option. Or, better yet, a mock trial followed by a mock version of what THIS legislation would afford.

[treestar]

50. There are a couple of movies that might help them see

For example, ghere are some scenes in the Six Wives of Henry VIII of a show-trial of Anne Boleyn. She is informed of what some witness said against her, asks where that witness is, and is told that the witness is dead.

The infotainment crowd needs to "see" it.

I have this project that I want to do someday if I ever learn how to make a film - have some retired police carry out a search of someone's home, because they volunteered, because they have "nothing to hide." I am convinced that "seeing" this carried out is the only way for sheeple to figure out what they are allowing.

Also there has to be some way to get them to understand that the label "terrorist" or "enemy combatant" will just be applied to them or to anyone by someone with unlimited political power to determine that.

They just do not get that. They are sublimely naive. Youth generally are, too, they really "trust" the government not to do them really wrong, because they have never seen the possibilities.

They also need talks from people who have lived in police states, etc. There are immigrants who've had that experience.

[Mythsaje]

60. Maybe it was different for me...

I was raised to distrust authority. Thankfully the mother of my kids trusts in no more than I do--though I'd say she's more Libertarian than liberal--in a non-political sense.

[treestar]

77. I think that's unusual, but a good thing. Do you agree, or remember

being young - I know there is teen rebellion but it is directed at parents and is more personal - usually teens in the US are politically quite naive. There are exceptions, of course.

[Mythsaje]

84. There wasn't a lot of point to rebelling against my father...

"Don't do anything I wouldn't do," left me with a LOT of wiggle room.

I figured out rather early that I couldn't necessarily trust authority. All on my own. I was a very small kid, and bookish...the target for a lot of bullying. 90% of the time, teachers would punish ME as well as the bully when all I'd been doing was minding my own business when they started in on me.

Either they were stupid, or just didn't care.

[mrdmk]

14. I am in Community College and Government History Class in the summer

In this class it was a 50/50 as to who knew what was going on, but for the most part, people were open to what was happening in the world. The professor stated he liked this class better because of level of the discussion. The class that met earlier in the morning was younger and was very concentrative in rhetoric they used for discussion. Although the class in the morning had a higher grade average he felt the material was not sinking in to their heads. This professor was by no means liberal but him and I were able to have great conversations before, during and after class.

BTW: I am 46 years old going after a second degree and I am not always the oldest in class.

[Democrat 4 Ever]

15. I know what you mean - I fear for our country if this is the level

of rational thinking displayed by so many young people.

Yesterday I had a long discussion (argument) with a friend who is in his early 70s. I have know this man for 35 years. I know he is a devout Southern Baptist (always trying to save me), that he is a dyed in the wood repug, and bigot (is that redundant?) but I also so thought he had a modicum of common sense and reasoning ability.

We were discussing the political climate, torture, etc. I countered every single argument he had but he constantly said "you read that on the internet" meaning it had to be bunk. I kept asking him where he was getting his information and he wouldn't say (Faux Snooze, is my guess). When I had beat back every single argument with a calm rational position he finally gave up. I thought for a brief second I was getting through to him. Nope.

His finally argument was "everybody in DC is crooked" so he just wants a repug in charge of stuff. In his mind, since everyone is corrupt better the devil you know...

Still grasping at trying to find a common ground that we could discuss I brought up Foley's resignation because of inappropriate behavior with young boys. He told me HE DOESN'T CARE, thinks that pedophilia isn't as serious as homosexuality! (Apparently he doesn't get the irony that Foley was hitting on young men.) Actually said that homosexuality was much worse than pedophilia. That homos are wrong and need to get back to wherever they come from. Then launched into railing against Pelosi. Said he bet she was a homo because she is from San Francisco.

That folks, is what we are fighting. Dumb, redneck, fake Christians who equates pedophilia as a minor character flaw in relation to homosexuality.

I finally walked away telling him that when he is called before his God I hope he has a good answer for that position. Between the trashing of the Constitution and the conversation with this yahoo, I spent a lot of yesterday really down. How on earth do you beat that kind of logic?

[StellaBlue]

18. they won't get it until someone they know is tortured and killed

My grandpa is just like that.

Only not so much a bigot. He is a really good man. Probably the best man I have ever known. He fought at Iwo-Jima. He was a mailman for forty years. He raised two children, one not his own biologically. He goes to church three times a week (I don't count that as a reason he is a good man, I am just saying...) Yet he says things like this:

"I can't believe the way those liberals attack our president. It's shameful. They're on the same side as the terrorists."

"Did you hear about this new book? This crazy writer says that Jesus and Mary Magdalene were married and had children - have you EVER heard anything so CRAZY?"

etc.

This is where I am coming from. I am from East Texas. 99% of the people I grew up around are of this mentality, including my entire family bar about three people. They cannot be reached.

[nradisic]

16. Great Post...to the point

You've managed to put in words what I've been thinking for so many years....almost word for word. So tru. Morons everywhere that have been dumbed down by our lowest common denominatot system of schooling....and the media does the same.

Amen to that.

[yurbud]

17. I teach community college and have seen a noticeable shift

kids mostly know what is going on right now and don't like what Bush is doing.

Even those who don't have no reason to enthusiastically run off the cliff with Bush. They have been systematically screwed by society and forced to accept less than was given the generation before.

For example, financial aid rules have been changed so that almost no one qualifies because they count your parents income until you are 26, so most of my students work unless their parents are wealthy.

When I bring up the idea of the draft, many say they will not go or go to Canada, I told one slacker kid (who never paid attention to anything) that they plugged that loophole and he said, "I guess there will be a revolution."

You can only screw people so far and get them to not only accept it, but pay for it with their lives.

[StellaBlue]

22. Yes, my generation (I am also 27) is FUCKED

we can't afford to buy houses, we are drowning in student debt and consumer debt, and we can't get jobs paying more than $12 an hour or with benefits.

[yurbud]

25. how many of your friends would show up if drafted?

[StellaBlue]

29. ZERO.

I suspect.

I cannot think of any who likely would. Certainly not any of my closer friends. That would be like maybe 30 people.

I sure as hell won't. They can do whatever they want. I will not kill for them.

[msongs]

33. "we are...drowning in debt" is YOUR fault

spending somebody else's money loaned to you generally means you are obligated to pay it back.

you do know that, don't you?

why do expect somebody else to pay for your choices?

Msongs
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[StellaBlue]

36. But I also expected to get a job paying more than $12 an hour

and not have to pay $250 a month for health insurance out of my own pocket.

Higher education is now a racket. We were sold a lie.

And I am paying it back. Fuck you.

[Dick Diver]

58. It's my understanding...

that you have a MFA or a similar degree. At what point in the last 40 years did the job market (under Repubs and Dems) did you expect to earn more than $12/hour. Can you point me to some documentation during the timeframe you were making your decisions regarding careers that an expenditure of $40k would be justified (financially ONLY) by the degree that you pursued.

I ask, because I was a Ph.D. candidate in English Literature in 1975 (specializing in Old English/Old Icelandic linguistics). At no time during that period did I think I could obtain a position paying a significant salary (my choice, as well as my choice to pursue a different degree and career track).

We are talking about decisions freely taken, with no false expectations here. How exactly in the 1997 timeframe (since you are 27) did you plan on paying back the expediture required to get the degree of your choice?

[readmoreoften]

70. It is more practical to get an MFA than a Ph.D.-- by far.

Film editors, graphic designers, cinematographers: all of these folks fare better in the job market than a Ph.D.s in the humanities or social sciences. Maybe you should stop berating the poster for her choices. And, by the way, it wasn't that hard in 1975 to get a tenure track position at a university-- in fact, it was one of the easiest times in history to do so. Maybe you should've stuck it out--> here's to being judgemental.

[Dick Diver]

75. First, even though I mentioned a Ph.D.,,,

in reference to my own choices, I really wasn't inquiring about the relative worth of a Ph.D. vs a MFA. I was inquiring about expecations upon entering the profession vs costs, how those have been changed by external factors in the last 10 years (if at all), and the importance taking responsibility for choices freely made. I also notice that your examples, "film editors, ...," are all "practitioners," as opposed to, for example, an MFA in Art History. It would be interesting to know what category the OP's degrees fall into.

As for the availability of tenure track positions in English Lit in 1975 you are simply incorrect. The 70s were immediately past the boom in academia within the humanities and tenure track positions were few and far between. The best person amongst my colleagues, a brilliant Shakespearean scholar who has since had a very successful publishing career, obtained a position at the University of Saskatoon! No thanks. Again, a choice freely taken with the best information of the day. No whining about it.

[StellaBlue]

82. You better not "whine" about anything on DU, EVER

because I will be watching and waiting to pounce, asshole.

Your posts smack of Republican thinking.

[Dick Diver]

89. Sorry if I seem to have offended you, but...

could you tell me what part of my posts, specifically, smack of "Republican thinking?" I would be useful if you could be specific as possible and not talk in generalities about such things like "tone" or "being judgemental." Is it "Republican" to:

1. Assume responsibility in life for one's choices and actions?
2. Do the things necessary to satisfy current obligations?
3. Other?

If, in your opinion, those tendencies and beliefs are classified as "Republican thinking," it would be useful to make that assessment public.

BTW, I exclude "being judgemental" as you are the one who has put your life story on the internets, including daddy's job at the bank, your paralegal one-dayer, the fact that you so prefer the UK to the US, etc., etc., etc. If, by doing this, you only expected a chorus of hallelujahs, then perhaps you should be posting in a support forum of some type.

[StellaBlue]

81. I do not have an MFA. That would be suicidal.

...and, really, it's not your place to judge me at all.

I do not have to justify my life to you.

Fact is, people my age were sold a big lie by our teachers, high school counselors, and even parents, that if we had a degree (any degree), we would be better off than the generation before us, that would would be in a position to get a "professional" job. We were led to believe that student loans were a necessary evil, and that we would earn enough to pay them back.

This was probably true for people who graduated from college before about 1990, even 1995, perhaps. But we're all fucked.

I don't know ANYONE - regardless of major - who is in a professional position, with the exception of ONE friend who, having finished her MS in physical anthropology, decided to teach high school biology. Her stories make me cringe. $43,000 a year is not enough for all the work she does and what she has to put up with from her idiotic students and their parents, but at least she can afford to make her loan payments.

[Hoping4Change]

49. What a snarky post.

I was watching a PBS report on student loans in the US. The private companies managing them are absolutely screwing people with student loans. Its downright criminal. These companies make HMOs appear angelic.

[Jim Sagle]

65. I didn't see the sarcasm tag. Are you on the wrong board?

[readmoreoften]

68. What? The choice to go to college full time? That's what most of us owe on

I thought that's what we were SUPPOSED to do? And now we're supposed to be rich too? If you go to state college, you come out of school at least $40,000 in debt into a job market that expects you to "intern" or work low-pay for a VERY long time. If you go to a private college, you're talking $80-$200,000. I teach at a school where the tuition is $46,000 a year. Graduate programs are $20,000 a year. People are going into debt $80,000 to be a social worker.

Higher education is a complete racket. I tell anyone I know to consider a union job like welding or becoming a master electrician.

[Bill McBlueState]

72. "why do expect somebody else to pay for your choices?"

The country benefits when people are well-educated. That's how the whole concept of government-subsidized grants and loans like the GI Bill and the Pell Grant arose. And that's why college students rightfully expect the government to pay for their education. In the rest of the developed world, political leaders understand the value of a citizenry that can think creatively and critically, so college is free. Not here.

[Shakespeare]

19. And now you begin to understand why the right has railed against liberal..

....arts colleges lo these past few decades. Without a strong liberal arts core, you aren't taught about the Enlightenment. If you aren't taught about the Enlightenment, you don't--on a frighteningly fundamental level--understand WHAT our democracy is, and why.

They are effectively unraveling generations of philosophical accomplishment and un-educating the populace. Yes, we are on our way back to the dark ages.

[Mz Pip]

20. She should bring enlistment forms

to the next class and pass them out. Let these little thugs see a bit of real battle and they will change their tune. Of all the veterans who are running for congress this year, only one is a Republican.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[kineneb]

59. join me in chanting: Sign up or shut up!

It is my new mantra when dealing with the Australopithecine element. Then produce enlistment forms.

[sandnsea]

21. A great herd

We either get in charge of the herd or stampede them in another direction. That's why what every person says, matters. And also why we always have to be 100% factual in what we say, the herd prefers to lumber along and will look for excuses to ignore anything that might disturb them. And did you ever see a herd revolt? Maybe harsh, but I think it's true. I think your post is right on the money. No need to get upset about it, just learn to use it.

[chat_noir]

27. I think we can put a bit of blame on "24".

I've watched the first fewsseasons on DVDs checked out from the library.

My sense was, "gee, the repubs must love this show", because of the torture scenes.

[never cry wolf]

28. It's not just students and young-uns

I know many 50 somethings who say the same sort of thing. "Nuke em all, turn the mideast into glass." "I don't have to worry because I'm not a terrorist." etc....

These are people who got college degrees in the '70's, smoked pot, tooted cocaine, streaked, had long hair and beards....

What ever happened to my generation of peace and love....

[mnhtnbb]

30. "people are stupid and luxuriate in their stupidity" I summarized

that view, after living in the red, really, really, red State of Nebraska
(which is still one of the few States approving of Bush) from 1994-2000.
I thought NE should have a new State motto: "Ignorant and proud of it".

That really sums up the attitudes of millions of people, and is one of the major problems in attempting to change their attitudes. These folks are not interested in facts, in learning, in weighing arguments; they just want someone to tell them how and what to think. It's a national disgrace.

[kath]

74. no, no, no! "Ignorant and proud of it" is the State motto of Oklahoma.

:-)

[StellaBlue]

32. If you are on board with my thoughts here, check out

www.richarddawkins.net

[question everything]

34. Unfortunately, this is typical of most voters

for most the issues of Iraq and terrorists and impeachment, even the deficit, are far and distance - unless they know someone personally who was killed or injured.. and they still admire their "sacrifice."

This is why it is so important to us to concentrate on every day life: good jobs, education, health care, cost of living, retirement and, yes, the Foley hypocrisy.

[glitch]

35. I have come to the conclusion that people are basically good-hearted but

fearful and very definitely herding, especially in times of change. It is amazing how many people look to another for direction, even on simple choices. This makes them capable of real good under good leaders and real bad under bad leaders.

I don't think they are stupid, I do think they have found herding to be the best choice for their own survival.

[Greyhound]

86. Have to disagree on this one. Any creature supposedly capable

of conscious thought (particularly if residing in an agricultural state) has no excuse for not understanding that this,



Always, inevitably becomes this,



I wish it were otherwise but, I am afraid that they are, in fact, stupid.:shrug:

[glitch]

87. Well, some days I agree with you.

I go back and forth.

[Greyhound]

88. Yeah, give this latest outrage a week or so ,and I'll start thinking they

aren't all so bad. LOL...:rofl:

[Arugula Latte]

37. This is where religious idiocy has gotten us.

We're supposed to respect faith -- no matter what. It's like the third rail. Any person can spout off the stupidest irrational superstitious religious bullshit and you can't say a damn thing because it's their "Faith." Even here on DU, people go after you for doing so.

Well, I don't respect Faith, because I don't respect stupidity and irrational thought.

[StellaBlue]

38. Amen.

www.richarddawkins.net

This needs to be said.

I am not afraid to say it, either. While I am glad they are onboard with the advance of humanity, science, etc., I am quickly losing respect for relgious "moderates". The fanaticism that both we nontheists and the religious moderates decry is only a logical extension of the "logic" of their own position. The trumpeting of any and all "faith" is simply making a virtue out of believing in something - anything - without evidence. The less evidence, the more virtuous. If one can disbelief the account of creation in Genesis and cast off the truly barbaric injunctions of Leviticus, why not question the whole damn thing?

I will be silent no longer. Faith is a poison and an impediment to human progress.

[Arugula Latte]

40. Yes.

Thanks.

My mother is in her mid-70s. Lately she has become very outspoken and will tell people at the drop of a hat that she is an atheist and doesn't believe all that superstitious religious nonsense. She says that people like us have been silent too long, and that she's had enough of people assuming everybody believes in some big Fairy in the Sky.

[spoony]

69. Ignorant, arrogant, off-putting, etc.

You're all that and then some. First of all, what in the world the OP has to do with religion escapes me. It's about torture, something most Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc. are against. I'm frankly tired of the assumption that because someone holds a stupid opinion that they are also necessarily "Bible-beaters."

Second, and more importantly, you and Stella and people like you with your broad-brush, divisive rhetoric is the true poison. I personally don't give a flying pasta creature if you sit there alone thinking you're better than anyone with religious beliefs, but the least you could do is show some basic civility and couth when dealing with others. Especially when posting on a forum dedicated to uniting people in an effort to oust the destructive forces running this country into the ground, and not dedicated to sticking your nose up and dismissing 90% of the nation's population.

[opihimoimoi]

39. We are a Society stuck in the First Gear....slothesque, we move so slowly

when it comes to social changes....

We need to remedy this somehow....the no child left behind is a joke...

[TroubleMan]

41. How ironic, I just read this thread, and it ties in perfectly.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2267434

This was the very next thread I read after that one. Seems like the movie is dead on.

[deadparrot]

42. I've gotta agree.

That's why I'm looking for a way out of this country ASAP. I'm seriously considering graduate school outside of the United States, and no matter where I'll go, I'll probably end up studing International Law and/or International Relations, something that gives me a chance to work outside of the States.

[young_at_heart]

43. Republican motto---the dumber, the better!

Obviously, most Republicans would not go along with such a slogan, but for people like Karl Rove, this is exactly what we wants.

[beachmom]

44. Europe is not even close to being perfect

I used to think like you until they started banning Muslim women from wearing veils in France and Germany. That's a violation of freedom of speech and freedom of religion. There are also a lot of "redneck" types in Europe, too, and in one area of East Germany the far right neo-nazi party (NPD) just won 5% of the vote for its state parliament. Also, there is a 100% ban of stem cell research in Germany, both public AND private. True, their media is better, and more of the population tries to stay informed, but there are serious problems in Europe, and I no longer put them on as high a pedestal as before.

I agree with your assessment of Americans. They obviously haven't opened the U.S. Constitution lately.

[StellaBlue]

45. I agree

BUT

the wackjobs in Europe do not hold nearly as much political power as they do here in the USA

where they hold ALL the power

[beachmom]

46. I think it's because their societies are less militarized

Everything in America is about "kicking ass" and our military might. Republicans play into that mentality, whereas that's a turnoff in Europe. In Europe, you actually have to sell your economic ideas and prove it over and over. A party like the Republican party would not do well in Europe.

[StellaBlue]

47. Exactly

Goes back to the OP.

Dumbing down. Lack of expectation of rationality and evidence. Sheer brawn.

See Idiocracy

[blue cat]

48. That's my experience as well

not in college but the people I know, who aren't political at all, don't see anything wrong with torture because they do it to us, etc. I think that they are the majority.

[Hoping4Change]

51. Great post. Recommended.

Your post is so to the point. That these attitudes mirror those of Islamic radicals is an understatement. In the early sixties historian Richard Hofstadder won a Pultizer for his book "Anti-Intellectualism in America". It is so well written and reveals that this current of anti-intellectualism has deep roots. The Introduction is an absolule must read as it sums up his thesis.

[StellaBlue]

52. Thanks

I had not even heard of that book (?!). Will check it out (literally, from the library).

:hi:

[Hoping4Change]

55. What is so compelling about him is that he loves the human capacity

for intellectual pursuit. He loves ideas. Please note the correct the spelling of his name:Hofstadter.


Below are some great quotes from brainyquotes.com



"A university is not a service station. Neither is it a political society, nor a meeting place for political societies. With all its limitations and failures, and they are invariably many, it is the best and most benign side of our society insofar as that society aims to cherish the human mind.


*

A university's essential character is that of being a center of free inquiry and criticism-a thing not to be sacrificed for anything else.


*
It is ironic that the United States should have been founded by intellectuals, for throughout most of our political history, the intellectual has been for the most part either an outsider, a servant or a scapegoat.


*

The delicate thing about the university is that it has a mixed character, that it is suspended between its position in the eternal world, with all its corruption and evils and cruelties, and the splendid world of our imagination."

[countryjake]

53. I think I disagree...one person at a time is all it takes, stop isolating.

I live in a rural community (or out of one, actually) which consists of a pretty broad spectrum of types...long-time farmers & growers; younger looking-for-cheap-copacetic-housing city-working commuter couples; offspring of farming, deprived of their heritage, but unwilling to seek livelihood in cities; hippie-types who know the magic of our valley, adjusting to the economy to live off the land successfully; farm laborers, some migrant, some settled; and former-military, based here during "the wars", saw a good thing, and decided to stay.

But despite all that diversity, there is still a small-town feeling of community, where everyone really does know your name (and unfortunately, most of your "business") and also, where one stands, politically. It's impossible to avoid discussing current events, cause even if you're so mad you can't see straight, someone is bound to ask while you're out buying chicken feed, "Hey so-n-so, hear they okayed wire-tapping?" You're so right about media-directives, tho around here it's not so much television as it is the County newspaper, which is the main contact with "outside world" influences, however the talking points of "the internets" has yet to gain much popularity, so that's a clear advantage for having honest, straightforward discussions.

But my point, (I think), is that talking with folks is what we have to do and I don't mean yelling matches about red/blue, Dem/Rep, left/right. Get to know people, learn to relate, use empathy, and don't judge your neighbor by the number of yellow ribbons on their pick-up or who they vote for or if they vote, at all...find out what makes them think the way they do and go from there, find common ground with local issues and then move on to the "big stuff", but reach out, the tide really is changing and if each one of us gives our personal nudge, clearing the waters as we go, sooner or later most common people will come to that moment they will say, "Duh, maybe so-n-so has something there!" Maybe they won't entirely agree with you, but at least they will begin thinking, which overall, is a good thing. You know you're being effective when you're lugging an eighty lb. bag of cracked-corn on your shoulder and someone wants you to put it down to talk about wiretapping.

[BuyingThyme]

54. You have had the best posts lately.

[StellaBlue]

57. I'm a writer

But I haven't written anything in years.

I am pissed.

So I just put this stuff out there, with little or no editing as the thoughts come out. Hence the lack of cohesion at times.

Did I mention that I am pissed?

[michaelpush]

63. when academic standards

are lowered this is what you get...when discipline in schools are nil...this is what you get..its a sad state our educational systems are in..."no child left behind" makes a High School Diploma null and void, a worthless piece of paper...that why companies now test potential employees during the application process.....

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

64. Is this in TX where this happened?

[StellaBlue]

83. Yes, but Austin

which is more like Boulder or Berkeley than Texas. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here. :)

[Swamp Rat]

67. "They are like medieval pilgrims"

Yes, the 21st Century Flat Earth Society. If I had a time machine I'd send them all back to when they belong.

[judaspriestess]

71. Funny, today I told my mislead freeper co-worker

that she is VERY misinformed. I said I have been voting since I was 18 I'm now 36 as she. She says oh I've been voting since I was 18 too. I replied, you just said yesterday, that you didn't pay attention to politics until 9/11. She said I didn't but I still voted.

so thats when I told her, well you are very misinformed and are not making decisions on all the evidence. I also said, I am not the most informed person out there, but I'm more informed than you.
She gave me a dirty look. I still like her and she's a pothead, go figure.

another example of how clueless people can be, its unbelievable and scary

[Mythsaje]

85. Anyone who's a pothead and ISN'T politically aware

is just a moron. When the PTB is continually trying to screw you and people like you to justify the incrimental dismantling of the Constitution, you damn well BETTER know what's going on around you.

That's not to say I haven't known plenty of people like that in my life. I'd rather have a friend who was aware, but often wrong, than someone who doesn't pay attention at all. Pothead or not.

[HardRocker05]

79. Spot on. It's depressing, but we are a nation of barbarians, ruled by our

basest instincts. The threads binding us into any sort of civilized society are thin indeed.

[cassiepriam]

80. Silly children. Don't they know they can be tortured now as well?

Funny how all of Bush supporters think they are immune from his evil.
Unfortunately it is turning out that his supporters are becoming his biggest victims. Look at the military.