Beauty Junkies Why Now?

[pippin]

As a 60's-70's feminist and someone who teaches gender studies I was interested in reading Alex Kuczynski’s “Beauty Junkies: Inside Our $15 Billion Obsession With Cosmetic Surgery.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/22/books/review/Bentley.t.html


According to Kucymski:

"this craze for plastic surgery is more than a display of culturally conditioned self-hatred. It is, rather, a current manifestation of female masochism — a sister compulsion to anorexia, bulimia, cutting and excessive tattooing and piercing. Here ritual, aesthetics, theatrics and exhibitionism are ceremonious enactments of self-annihilation in the hope of transcendence (if you’re a romantic) or escape (if you’re a realist). These are death and resurrection exercises. Self-loathing, on the other hand, keeps you firmly in the eternal hell of the here and now."

So why now? Why in a time when women <thanks to us older feminists> are theoretically free of many of the historical restraints to achievement? Would really like some feedback from all you thoughtful DUers before bringing this topic up in the classroom.

[murielm99]

1. I think a lot of it has to do with

Boomers getting older. Hitting the big 5-0 or 6-0 is jolting. We have always been the young idealists who were going to change the world.

And no matter what we have learned about achievement, we realize that women really do become invisible as they age. That invisibility make it harder to achieve anything. I think the middle-age years are the worst for women. After they pass those years, they can take their places as elders, and they once again become visible, and more respected.

Can you speak about middle-aged womens' invisibility?

[pippin]

3. Older and Invisible

Georgia Binks actually has a whole article on how women are consistenly ignored as they get older.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_binks/20031003.html


"I realized then that part of me was starting to disappear. Unlike Alice, in Woody Allen's movie of the same name, who was given potions to make her invisible, all I had to do was continue to sit around and age and I, too, would start to fade away.

I did what many women do when they first realize they're disappearing – I fought back. We can be perked up or puffed out. I coloured my hair, increased my daily dosage of makeup, bought bellbottoms (or are they flares now?) and started wearing my daughter's clothes.

Cosmetic surgery was beyond my budget, though it has done much to make a liar out of Shakespeare's Duke Orsino, who claims in Twelfth Night that women are like roses, "whose fair flower, Being once display'd, doth fall that very hour."

What I didn't realize initially is that invisibility runs deeper than just our skin."

" . . .Women I have spoken with say wisdom is the problem. One told me, "We older women know a line when we hear one." As well, while many older women might feel they want a man, they don't actually need one. Some say that's attractive to men, but as a friend points out, "If a woman doesn't need you, then where's your bargaining power?"

[zanne]

9. Bigger boobs have little to do with middle age.

Young women following a trend are more likely to get plastic surgery. Big boobs are big business.

[radwriter0555]

112. It's STILL about pairing up, being lonely and having a mate. It ALWAYS is.

When we're young, we can attract the hot younger fellows and ALL the guys want us. 20, 30, 40, 50, 60 year olds and more, of course.

As we age, fewer and fewer men find us attractive, and let's face it, the older they get, the less attractive THEY are too.

BUT, they're still attracted to the hot, young chicks. But, we would still prefer the hot, younger guys!

So, in order to expand our viable pool of candidates for pairing up, we have to compete with the hot young chicks. So.. the tits get lifted, the tummies get tucked and sucked, the brows get tightened, the necks get lifted, the eyes get 'brightened' up.

It's tough to compete with hot young chicks to find mates, especially since we're not programmed for one mate our entire lives to begin with. So the plastic surgeons get our bucks... it really is as simple as that, for the most part.

[MuseRider]

4. Wow, really?

The big 5-0 was an amazing experience for me. It was the most empowering thing to happen to me ever. I was unprepared for it so it was a wild ride into the not giving a fuck about what anyone else thought about the way I looked, dressed or what I did with my time. I feel less invisible than ever, possibly because my confidence was increased and I refused to be invisible. Just let someone try to look over me. No more days of the doctor, salesperson, whoever dealing with me by talking to my husband. I used to stand there incredulous and steaming mad but was not able to express myself for fear of being labeled a "bitch". Now I simply do not care if to them I am a "bitch" for not wanting to be spoken over and around.

Again I ask, what in the world are we doing to the women in this society?

[zanne]

10. I don't feel "invisible", either.

When I speak to men now, they look at my FACE and take me seriously.

[MuseRider]

15. Yes and that is so nice.

My internal self will try to tell me they listen now because I have gained weight as I pass through this stage of life and am less "cute" than I once was. In other words, the same hateful dialog that was ingrained in me as a young girl is still there but I have the courage or ability to ignore it. I decide what to do based on what I want. Like the weight. I don't like the way I look or feel now so I will try to diet but it is MY choice for ME. It is amazing to be old enough to finally realize your value. Too bad our society constantly tells you that you have no value except as decoration or receptacle and that it takes most of your life to figure out what bull that is. I wish we had been more successful with our young women of today. Some of them get it but the pressure on them is enormous to be otherwise.

[treestar]

49. IA, feminism has meant we aren't ignored

I think the increase in plastic surgery could be just because it can be done now where it couldn't before and may relieve people of things they couldn't be relieved of before (like bad noses, etc.) and more can afford it.

When it comes to aging, more people are going to do it perhaps because it is easier, and it may well include men.

[pippin]

11. what in the world are we doing to the women in this society?

I think you've asked the right question. Part of my response is that there seems to be this massive campaign Kuczynski describes as
"culturally conditioned self-hatred" which is so terribly disempowering and a distraction that women prevents from going for achievement that goes beyond surface appearances. The concluding story of the Hollywood wife Kuczynski uses at the end of the review of her book says it all.


Like you, I find growing older enormously liberating in that I am not living at the mercy of some internalized critic but have come to trust my own evolving wisdom. As for being a "bitch," one of my wise women friends used to say "if someone calls me a bitch I know I'm doing it right!" :evilgrin:

[MuseRider]

16. Wise indeed!

I still fight that internalized critic, it is still there but I no longer listen to it. I push it aside as I would something stuck on my shoe.

[StellaBlue]

21. I'm sorry it took you til 50 to get that attitude

I have always been like that. ;) And I'm only 27 now.

Life's short. Fuck 'em.

[MuseRider]

26. You are one of the successes then.

Congrats to you. I salute you, carry it on.

I was certainly not on the forefront of the movement but my awareness occurred in high school so it came at a time when I really needed it. It did make it difficult to advance when the stops for woman's advancement were still firmly in place but we kept at it and it certainly allowed me to garner strength, it just took me a while to figure it all out and use it. The attitudes of who I have to deal with in life have not changed much since the 50's but there are many women doing exactly what I am doing with a big "fuck you" to those who would put us in dresses and handle the hard work for us. Who ever said that a penis gave you an up on these things? You would think it was an extra hand or something. ;)

I have great relationships with men who are willing to let me be me and appreciate that. The others? Well I think they would rather not deal with me at all.

:applause: to you and those like you who carry on for the younger women just learning the ropes.

[StellaBlue]

30. We are extremely lucky to be living here and now

I would've been stoned to death or burned at the stake by about age 15 in 99.9% of the other times or societies that I might've found myself born into.

I will not surrender what we've gained. Since I can live independently, I chose to do so (I am in the "rather be alone than with an asshole" camp, and don't "date" per se, or generally give a shit about what anyone, including "eligible" men think).

My life is about learning, reading, travel, and art. As I meet kindred spirits, my urban family grows. I hope to one day be the cool spinster aunt to one of these friend's kid. :D

Live free or die.

[MuseRider]

35. Oh BIG hug!

:hug:

My father would have burned me at the stake if he thought he could have gotten away with it. As it was I was able to hide what he did do in hopes of making me good husband material (pliable and obedient). I can laugh about it now thankfully.

If you so wish for companionship you compromise you are in big trouble. I would never get married again if something happened to my husband. Not because of him but because of everything else. You do not have to be lonely just because you live alone. That was one of the scare tactics my female relatives used, you will be soooo lonely! People will think you are odd! As it was I held out until I was 28 and they had given up on me.

I figure I will be the very odd old lady that the neighbors warn their kids about but who they love to visit because I do cool things with them. Being odd has its rewards as well. (my best friend prefers unique to odd but I kinda like odd :hi:)

[StellaBlue]

48. Yes; unlike most young women, I LOOK FORWARD to aging

not the arthritis, or bad digestion, or easy bruising, or what have you ;), but I am secure in my spinsterhood; at 27, no one takes you seriously. Just in the past year or so I've started getting the concerned interrogations from older female relatives... "Are you seeing anyone?" and "But don't you want to have children?" and "A woman should be married by 27" (said to me when I was 25 - arbitrary-much?! ha!). I enjoy rocking their little worlds. I think they are starting to think that I am secretly seeing someone (like, a black guy - my old white relatives would just die!) or that I am a lesbian (I wish). I've been in love twice; in that regard, I count myself lucky. It's a nice thing to experience in life. But having gotten out of a terrible relationship about a year and a half ago, I am finding, just like as a teenager, I am perfectly happy alone. There is so much to DO and SEE in the world. Friends make it go round.

Anyway, I fully intend to be the old spinster who scares the neighborhood children, sitting on my decaying, vine-covered front porch with a pistol in my lap and a mint julep in my hand. Too bad I am allergic to cats!

[MuseRider]

95. Tell you what.....

we are building on my farm. The house is huge (my husbands doing but then he is moving to my farm) but it is also going to be off the grid so I don't feel guilty but I do feel pretentious. I fully intend to open it up if something happens to him. Kind of a commune I guess but for women only. Anyone with an attitude like yours would be more than welcome! It keeps me excited in my aging. I never got to experience a commune when I was younger and I find it a fascinating idea.

Good luck with the relatives. They will never be happy. My father in law told me (TOLD ME) on my wedding day that if I was not pregnant within the first year he was going to go looking for someone else for his son. They are NEVER happy.

Enjoy. I am a little jealous since I could have easily made that choice but did not.

[StellaBlue]

106. what an asshole

I hope your husband isn't like him! haha I would've told him to shut the fuck up. And maybe punched him, then thrown the ice sculpture at his head.

Seriously, I think the whole commune concept is pretty interesting.

[neebob]

59. Yeah!

I'm there, too, only the learning process took me into my forties - and no need to be sorry. It would have been a lot easier, though, if I hadn't been raised to expect to get married and live happily ever after. We're all about men and competing for men and pairing off and reproducing.

I have a 42-year-old never-married friend who's really struggling with the prospect of being single for the rest of her life. She's already the cool spinster aunt, is tired of it, and is in the midst of this epic beautification and manhunt. She wants a man so badly that almost any one will do, and she's putting herself out there in a way that practically says, "Please come leech off of me and take my dignity, too." I really fear for her.

It's easier for me, I think, because I've been married and had a kid and enough unsatisfying and worse relationships to be completely done with pairing off. I can't say I don't harbor some vague hope of finding my life partner in my sixties, like Gloria Steinem, but I don't expect it to happen. Even if it did, the tradeoffs don't seem worth it.

[DancingBear]

42. Does this mean I can't email you anymore??

:scared:


(BTW, it's not a hand - it's a foot. Shit, everyone knows THAT...) :)

[MuseRider]

97. BWAHAHAHAHA!

Of course you can, I would be very unhappy if I never heard from you again! You are one of the good guys who understand and are no threat because you are happy with your lovely wife and respectful to women.

A foot? But I thought it was needed to write a check. At least that is what I asked the water guy who would not put a water line on my property until my husband met with him. He was concerned about who would pay the bill. He blanched and turned the brightest red you can imagine when I asked him why he thought a penis was needed for that. Needless to say, he never met with my husband and I have always paid my bill without one.

[Lady Effingbroke]

78. I'm 36, and I already don't give a fuck!

Never have, likely never will.

Don't wear makeup (never have, why wash my face only to encrust it with goop); can't stand wearing dresses (to me, they are uncomfortable and impractical - I'm a jeans n' t-shirt kinda woman); and I don't give a shit what anyone thinks about my choices. If people don't like me for the no-makeup-jeans-and-t-shirt wearing person that I am, then they can take their ass right on down the road - fuck 'em.

I, too, refuse to play the role of the "demure little woman" and sit silently by while people speak - and work - over and around me. In my experience, the only things I can't do are pee standing up and lift really heavy things - everything else I've applied myself to, I've been able to do as well, if not better, than anyone I've worked with.

:hi:

[StellaBlue]

91. see:

http://myvag.net/pee/standing/

and :hi: because I like your bad attitude ;)

[MuseRider]

96. Right on.

I love your confidence!

I will never be caught in a dress that isn't something long (to the floor) and comfy because pantyhose and I have parted ways, along with heeled shoes. I have a closet full of tee shirts and jeans. Love them.

[SmokingJacket]

98. I just read a lavishly photographed book about eating disorders.

It was incredible and heartbreaking -- pics of girls and older women who'd starved and vomited and cut themselves. The question I kept asking myself is "WTF is going on with our society to make women want to hurt themselves so badly??"

I had a little brush with an e.d. when I was a younger woman -- I know a lot of it has to do with the family and the individual, but the cultural pressures are *seriously* out of control.

[MuseRider]

101. It is heartbreaking.

We should be allowed to grow into ourselves and be who we are truly and comfortably. I had hoped by this time young girls would be so much farther along than they were when I was growing up. After raising two boys and dealing with the girls their ages it seems to all be the same. Some of it I understand as natural but for the most part the rest of it seems artificial. To do that to yourself just to meet the expectation of others, it just blows my mind.

[MaraJade]

99. Amen, sis!

On my thirtieth birthday, I spent the night crying and I drank a whole bottle of wine. I thought that I had one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel.

But that thinking was clearly a function of immaturity.

I've leapt gracefully over that 5-0 boundary and I am actually looking forward to being an "old crone." I love this time in my life! There seems to be so much to do and accomplish and so many people that I want to nurture, including my own teen daughter. I don't feel invisible at all!

If one has an invisibility problem then one needs to analyze WHY they feel so overlooked. Is it because some MAN doesn't notice you? If so, you need to stop relying upon the permission and approval of the youth obsessed society and men and look
inward more. Meditate on this--YOU ARE WORTH FAR MORE THAN HOW YOU LOOK.
Your knowledge, understanding, wisdom and life experiences are treasures that can help others, especially young ones. Like the finest of wines, we only get more savory with the passage of time.

Being a woman is more than getting noticed by men. We gals are half the brain trust of the human race and we have always had great things to offer, no matter our position in life. Now, more than ever, our daughters and sons need us, because it is only through us that they learn to be fully human, to be civilized, to respect the gifts of culture.

All of the ancient cultures of Earth honor their older ones, and it seems that older women are especially esteemed. We need to get back to that in these modern times.

Take that bushel off your lamp and shine, shine, shine!

[MuseRider]

103. !

Lovely post. :applause: :woohoo:

Shining on and on.

Funny thing, since I turned 50 and shook off the last remnants of whatever I was not my husband has begun to respect me. He has always been a powerful man in his profession but all of a sudden what I say means something and he asks me for advice about things. 'Bout damned time I say! I had successfully made my own life without him, now we just might actually come together again. Other men seem to have less problem relating to me and I suppose it is how I relate to them differently. Most can take it and those that can't, well it is their loss ;).

[Benhurst]

6. "We have always been the young idealists

who were going to change the world."

As a member of that generation, I find in appalling that we are the generation which has sat by and allowed our more than two-hundred-year-old republic be flushed down the toilet by a group of thugs who stole their way into the White House.

And it wasn't done by the charismatic man on the white horse our ancestors feared; but by a vile, nasty, unattractive little man posing as a Texan, who is terrified of horses.

The "never trust anyone over thirty" generation should adopt "never trust anyone over fifty" for its new motto, at least that would embody a bit of truth in advertising.

[pippin]

13. vile, nasty, unattractive little man

so it's interesting that "a vile, nasty, unattractive little man" can wield all that power without having to submit to the pain and expense of cosmetic manipulations when even wives of would be politicos (remember the snide references to Kerry's wife about her Botox sessions?) and female legislators are still judged by their appearance? :think:

[mntleo2]

31. A-Men Benhurst!!!

I am very angry at my generation, who attended earnest protests in the 60's simply because it was "in" not because they believed it. They proved this by going on to become entitled yuppies who laughed at people who actually believed in making the world a better place. When the rubber hit the road in the '80s and the people in this administration today were wreaking havoc in S America, where were most of my generation? Sipping lavender water in France and decorating their yuppie homes with over-priced Persian rugs made by enslaved 4 year olds tiny hands. They made fun of people sounding the alarm as "hippies who refused to let go" and they refused to listen or do anything for what was happening. Now these same monsters are in power again and my generation are the victims of their own excesses. IMO they deserve what they get ~ unfortunately, they are taking down with them those who were "hippies refusing to let go" who did all the work in poverty for ideals that were far more noble than making a 6 figure wage on the backs of the poor.

So if those people hitting 50 are all in a-twitter over getting a few wrinkles, they just have not gotten the message of their generation and they never will until they end up on the street. They are still running to the next "Be-In" rather than looking at what matters: there are monsters out there tearing up everything near and dear to not only ourselves, but for the next generations or our children. And it is ALL their own fault, thanks to THEIR short-sightedness!

Cat In Seattle <---an old activist who has paid the price dearly and know of what I speak.

[Benhurst]

62. I agree with most of what you say.

"Activist" is the key word.

While many who protested did so because it was the "in" thing to do and have copped-out along the way, we must not forget the Dick Cheneys and George W. Bushes who did not protest, supported the war and were more than willing to have others die in their place.

The former are guilty of sins of omission, the later make up the bulk of those guilty of sins of commission.

I still hold out some hope for the former, none for the latter.

[mntleo2]

80. Oh Yes, the Cheneys and Bushes Are The Worse Of All!

...I agree with that, and there IS hope for the ones who "forgot" what the Movement was all about, all right. When they see their children and perhaps themselves in poverty and as who they truly were to the "Bu$h/Reagan/Cheney/Rumsfield" types ~ as just a bunch of people to use ~ then perhaps they will jump in, and while it is better late than never, it is a little too little too late unfortunately, IMO. If they would have listened in the late '70s and '80's especially, and worked with the ones of us who were trying to stop this stuff in its tracks, instead of thwarting us, perhaps we would not have the problems we have today. But they didn't and IMO because they didn't, they have brought down all the rest of us.

Believe me it is not as if the informations was not out there, it was (with almost as blind of a media and without the Internet to boot). And as I wrote to Senator Biden when they were considering Negroponte for ambassador to Iraq (which the idiot voted for anyway), about the death squads and torture in S American then (and which is happening again "coincidentally"), "If he (Negroponte) didn't know what was going on in S America, how did I know, when I am just a commoner, a low income single mother with a high school education, who has no power or access compared to the information and power Negroponte had?"

These people just didn't seem to learn from history when we were taught TO learn from WWI and WWII and the death camps especially. It all comes around to what the great theologian Dietrich Bonhoeffer (sp?) wrote on a piece of toilet paper in the Nazi death camps, just before he was killed: "When they came for the Jews I said nothing because I was not one of them ... when they came for me, there was no one left to speak ..."

My 2 cents

Cat

[Benhurst]

108. ...

:hi:

[zalinda]

41. Because we were the hippies

doesn't mean everyone else was. Hippies were on the news a lot, but we were the minority, a small part of what was going on. Because the media actually reported the news, hippie clashes were reported, but as a bad thing. It's the same for feminism, we were the minority. For every one of us flower children, there were a hundred or more who just didn't get it. That doesn't mean that some of the others didn't grow into dems, I'd say moderate dems and moderate repubs are the majority.

As for the plastic surgery, it's mainly the fault of advertising. Jamie Lee Curtis did an article for More magazine. Here's a link to the pics
Before: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=0&f=/c/a/2002/08/27/ED242187.DTL
After: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=1&f=/c/a/2002/08/27/ED242187.DTL
No matter how far we've come, women to a lot of men are still pieces of meat, something to own. And because of the perfectionism of media, woman feel inadequate if they don't measure up to the woman on the rock videos, or TV shows.

And, I as a single woman, am having a great deal of conflict over a single woman's role in this society. I've been approached to having sex by a number of much younger men, and of course there is no chance of a relationship in these encounters. But, do I want a relationship? Do I want meaningless sex? For me, as an almost 60 woman, who feels 30 inside, I am torn to bits on how I was brought up (good girls don't), and today's morality (anything goes). If I'm having this conflict with my maturity, I can't imagine what it must be for the 30 year old.

zalinda

[tenshi816]

70. I've said for years that

the perfect undercover operative for a detective agency would be a late 30s/early 40s pregnant woman pushing a toddler in a stroller, because they really are invisible to most people.

[rucky]

75. did you say something?

good analysis

[iamjoy]

2. We Haven't Come That Far...Technology Has

society really hasn't come that far in its expectations of female beauty. Feminism helped us get rid of the corset, then the girdle and made it acceptable to wear pants and shorts. However, the biological need of men to look at their ideal of an attractive woman never really went away, and the need of women to be looked at in that way never changed either. I'm not sure to what extent our need is biological and to what extent it's still social conditioning - not sure it matters.

Medical technology has made wonderful advancements. The idea is that women can have the perfect body "painlessly" through breast augmentation, liposuction, etc. OF course the surgery isn't really painless and it's risky (not to mention expensive), but it has the appearance of being easy, at least at first glance.

So, that's why now.

[pippin]

5. the biological need of men to look at their ideal of an attractive woman

The real biological need was and is to ensure the propagation of the species. The criteria a male is supposed to look for in his mate is a woman who has healthy genes to pass on to the next generation. However, the criteria males today use to select the "attractive" sex partner tends to be based on what the media, the porn industry and corporations tell him is attractive no? The disturbing part of all this it seems to me is that we're so hooked up to what media and the industries dictate we've lost sight of what our real needs are all about.

[KittyWampus]

19. Consider we no longer arrange marriages. Now we have to find a mate

And often that search includes raw sexual gratification.

And yes, this base level of sexuality is peddled to us by many indurstries.

[Nikia]

113. One of my husband's band members said

"All women are beautiful, with the possible exception of some severe genetic/accidental deformities. If this was not the case, humans would have become extinct."
While every woman does not have to reproduce, it is actually women who are the limited partner. A single male can have several children born in a single year by impregnating several different women. A woman uually only can have one baby per year no matter how many men she sleeps with.
This means that more women must be attractive to more men than vice versa biologically for reproductive success of a population.
This is also why in some cultures, men marrying multiple women is popular amongst powerful men while the reverse is rare.
While it is true that the human race is overpopulated rather than underpopulated, if one is to argue biology, this would still apply today. Most women should be naturually attractive to men, while fewer men need naturually be attractive to women.
It seems that culture is uncomfortable with this biologically and culturually tries to turn the tables. It is women who work so hard to look good, while the average man doesn't try and doesn't look good and yet expects to end up with one of the supermodel or porn star looking women. Women are often expected to settle while men demand the "ideal". What it means is that the less desireable men end up alone and blame women. Women are told, however, that we only have ourselves to blame.

[no_hypocrisy]

7. IMO it's a combination of sexism mixed with ageism.

There's an unspoken attitude about a woman becoming invalid as soon as she is beyond her fertile years, so to speak. It's primitive and naive, but it's there. As much as women have progressed their presence in society, unfortunately it appears that we haven't effectively divorced ourselves from the attitude that our right to participate in society is tied to our uteri. I remember Gloria Steinem upon her 65th birthday proudly proclaimed, THIS is what 65 looks like!" and I had hope.

I now have to concede that there is a situation which is more than a trend, but rather a way of life, where women (and men to a lesser extent) as "old" as 35 years are rushing to their dermatologist or cosmetic surgeon to erase ever-so-slight "creases" in their face, etc. The motivation may be personal for self-esteem; it may be to discourage their husbands and/or lovers from searching for new blood; it may be to maintain one's job status due to a fear that one's natural age is not conducive to attracting/keeping cliente.

This society is horribly ageist, let alone sexist. With the exception of the Red Hat Society, I cannot think of a single medium wherein mature women are used as positive models. The ex-wife of Norman Lear had a magazine in this regard a few years back, but it folded.

To return to the original premise, I don't argue with someone visiting a plastic surgeon per se. I argue with the motivation if someone believes she HAS TO undergo cosmetic surgery in order to participate in a variety of social situations.

[pooja]

8. Because women went to work and left their daughters alone way

too often to watch shows like Springer, talk on the phone, use the internet, and read magazines. We have abandoned our daughters for the sake of independance and a pay check (that equals nothing by the end of the day--taxes, daycare, car payments, insurance, etc)... I'm not saying that women shouldn't have a career. I am saying we have abandoned our children. Why are so many mom's trying to work from home now. Do a google search. They don't want to abandon their children like they were. I don't want to. I would love to work at home. I would love to be there and raise my own children, rather than some stranger. I am the generation that was raised by moms at work... it sucked. I didn't like having parents on the weekend only. And I don't want my children to suffer with that.

[Mountainman]

27. Are there no fathers in your world? Like the " feminism failed" post

yours is a pretty broad statement. I don't think all working women have abandoned their kids. Many families with two working parents do very well in raising their kids. I really admire the women who have to work and raise kids with out the help of their father. They are forced to live a life that they would not have chosen if given a choice simply because of the biology of the situation. They carry and give birth to the kids and cannot abandon them as easily as the father can. Many of them make very little money yet must house, clothe, feed and educate them all on what little they earn. Then to be told they are not the ideal parent is pretty shitty, I think. They should be admired for their struggle and not be put down.

People here seem to me to still want women to fit into a mold be it the ideal body shape or the ideal mother roll. That is something we don't demand of the men here. Nature doesn't make everyone pretty and life isn't fair.

[pooja]

32. I'm not saying that women aren't amazing... I am not saying that

my own mother and aunt aren't amazing women. I am not saying that I am not an amazing woman. I only wish that I could have the option of not working or working from home (which I'm working on, hopefully in a years time I will not be tied down to a desk while away from my children). I know my mom did the best she could. I know that I am doing the best I can right now. But I think I know what is better for my children than some stranger.

I would even give up my vote, to be able to raise my children... sorry, feminism happened and the rest of the world said "FUCK YOU"... YOU WANT THIS, NOW YOU WORK 40HRS HERE, AND 100 AT HOME.

[Mountainman]

37. It seems to me that the reason more women went to work rather than stay

home was because a one income family couldn't make it anymore. The cost of living along with the decrease in earning potential forced women into the work place. I'm sure that if one parent could make enough money to pay for everything than the other would stay home and raise the kids in many of todays households.

[pooja]

63. I completely agree. If I happened to be the bread winner and

my husband wanted to stay home I would support that. I just don't want them at my children any sooner than they can get them.

[devilgrrl]

29. Yep, if it weren't for those working women...

sorry, your comments sound soooooo Mona Charenish that I'm having a difficult time holding the contents of my stomach in place. :crazy:

[KittyWampus]

61. So you're saying it's of no consequence that kids WERE abandoned

and left to grow up with no parental authority figures present?

You need to read the NYTimes article of Elephants and how the stress of having their social structures decimated due to loss of habitate and poaching have caused bizarre violent behavior.

Humans evolved with social structures.

Whatever kind of extended family (many cultures, many variations) only recently have families broken down.

[devilgrrl]

121. Oh there's consequences but some women have no choice but to work.

For example my mother. My father never paid up after their divorce, she had to work. Were there consequences, yes there was.

Your post neglected to address economic issues, many people need both parents working... okay?

[fasttense]

12. I know of no one who has had any of these surgical procedures

to enhance their beauty, with two exceptions. I know someone who had a breast reduction and someone who had their stomach stapled when they reached 300 lbs. Both of those surgeries were done to allow the women to live normal lives. The breast reduction was necessary because she always had neck, shoulder and back pain. Exercise was excruciating and she felt like a freak. She said it was the best thing she ever did in her life. The 300 lb 20 year old woman did the stomach stapling for obvious health reasons.

I think this is overblown. I don't feel invisible as I approach 50. I feel healthy and well respected, in-tune with current events and though I would like to lose some weight, I don't think I'm unattractive. I think it is a symptom of overly rich women with nothing in their lives besides their looks. They are depressed and have poor self esteem because they have nothing in their lives besides themselves and their money. Empty lives lead to desperate methods of fulfillment.

Even the article points this out.

"She neglects, for example, to mention the sobering recent studies suggesting that women who have had cosmetic surgery are three times as likely as their sagging peers to kill themselves. In other words, depressed women are the most common beauty junkies.

Make that depressed women with extra cash. Cosmetic surgery is still mostly an elitist preoccupation, though some plucky girls take up collections on the Internet, promising their benefactors pictures of their new breasts. Indulging in just a few of the procedures outlined in Kuczynski’s book can cost more than $50,000."

I have better things to do with $50,000 and the time it takes to recuperate from these silly surgeries. These beauty junkies have nothing else to do with their time and money. It is a symptom of too much money.

I use to enjoy the reality series on PBS about families who agreed to live in the past. I think one was done in the Victorian times, and there was a group of families who lived in the prairies (like Little House on the Prairie) and then there were the ones who recreated the lives of the early settlers. They agreed to live just like they lived in those years, including the bad food and uncomfortable conditions.

Several interviews of the participants afterwords gave telling explanations for the emptiness of modern life. Two girls from very rich households were sitting around in a multi-million dollar home saying how bored they were. They said that in the recreated past they always had something to do, a chore, a meeting and an obligation to cook or sew, or clean. There these very rich girls, who had the money and time to do anything they wanted, sat on summer vacation trying to figure out something to do. They finally decided to go shopping at the mall. How very sad that that was all they had to do.

[pippin]

23. Not just the rich

"I think it is a symptom of overly rich women with nothing in their lives besides their looks. They are depressed and have poor self esteem because they have nothing in their lives besides themselves and their money. Empty lives lead to desperate methods of fulfillment. "

I think you are partly correct. I live in the suburbs of L.A. and accidentally came upon a new steel and glass complex in Rancho Cucamonga. I was puzzled at the hordes of women coming and going and found out that the building was a center for cosmetic surgery. The women who live in California's so called Inland Empire are not exactly wives of Hollywood execs and the cities in the area tend to be working class neighborhoods with pockets of high rent areas.

I happen to personally know a woman who is a fortyish grocery store checker who decided she wanted breast implants since she felt she wsa "getting old." Not sure how she managed the financial end as a single mother with four kids and two grandkids. With her implants, blonde hair and heavy makeup she reminds me (and this really dates me) of the late Jayne Mansfield. She would probably be what some of my young students describe as a "high maintenence woman." The economic ramifications according to the little study done by one of my students for the maintenence of hair touch ups, manicures and cosmetics are quite astonishing. So yes, while the rich and depressed can indulge their hollow lives one wonders about about the filter down effect of this trend on ordinary women and their families.

[tenshi816]

74. I had a breast reduction in 1999

and it's the best thing I've ever done for myself. Five years before that, I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia because of the unrelenting pain I had in my upper back - yet not one doctor I saw ever seemed to think that carrying around nearly G-cup breasts on a 5'3" frame might be a factor. When I had the breast reduction surgery performed, my surgeon told me the next day that he removed nearly 2 kilograms of tissue from each breast (or more than 4 pounds for each of them).

Guess what - I've never had a fibromyalgia symptom since that day.

I don't understand women with plastic surgery obsessions, nor those who want to look like Barbie dolls, but I've never regretted my surgery and I'd do it again in a heartbeat because it changed my life. For one thing, I now know what it's like to walk down the street without people nudging each other and staring (or laughing) at me. Men don't automatically assume I'm easy because of the size of my chest. I also now know what it's like to live without constant pain.

[Forrest Greene]

14. Feminism Failed

...it seems to me, when it caved in to workplace demands that women become men in skirts. There was a brief window when the movement could have helped evryone, male & female, a lot by returning some genuine pieces of the missing feminine to our testosterone-drrowned culture. But by & large, in the same way a Black cop has to be harder on Blacks than a White cop does, feminism played the owners' game, & went for the money, instead.

[Ripley]

18. Never fails.

Not one thread can be started here about the severe anti-female road America is on without it becoming inflamed with misogynistic posts. "Feminism Failed" = Women shoulda stayed barefoot and pregnant. It's Women's fault for being uppity.

Bullfuckingshit. :nuke:

I'll tell You what happened. The Pornification of America happened. What was once a sub-genre of entertainment has become mainstream. Women are expected to look "fuckable" at all times, from their nails, lip size, thongs, language and acceptance of "anything goes" You see it in gum commercials, cartoons, children's clothing, it is everywhere. Saturating the masses with Women as Fucktoy Always. And if You want to attack me and call me a Victorian prude, grow up and get a life. There is a big difference between a healthy sexuality and a pathological desire to place value on half the population of the world according to the most basic human instinctual function.

[Forrest Greene]

44. That Is Absolutely Not What I Meant To Say

And please do not attempt to attack me for _your_ rude & vulgar words. They came out of your mouth, not mine.


ETA "to"

[Ripley]

45. You blamed Feminists.

You assert that Feminism FAILED. If it failed, how is it that Women have made some (despite the horrific amount of bullshit (cover your virgin ears) thrown at them) progress? Which feminists "dictated" that women act like men? What exactly are the attributes that women "mimic" men to be like them? Confidence? Speaking up? Asking for a raise? Apply for a manly job? You claim "feminism" (who is that?) sold out, went for the money. Um. Are you saying women who do the same job as men should not be paid an equal salary?

What exactly did You mean then?

[Forrest Greene]

52. Stella Blue Got It

& I tried again, below that.

No one is above critique. Critique is _not_ blame, it is analysis, in the hopes of improving performance.


ETA misspelled "analysis"

[mongo]

58. "It's all porn's fault"

Yes, women were never held up to some ridiculous standard of beauty before the 1980's.

Women weren't required to bind their feet, or wear corsets damaging to their health, or put metal rings around their neck in African cultures, etc. etc. etc.

Yeah, none of this happened until the 1980's when porn became "mainstream"

Get a fucking grip.

[StellaBlue]

60. that's not the point

now almost every instance of women in the popular media/culture fits the expectations of porn. I mean, Pamela Anderson is considered mainstream, for godsakes. :eyes:

If the media is to be believed, we are expected to be walking, non-talking sex robots 24/7. Bleach your hair, get breast implants, have no cellulite or stretch marks, always always wear makeup, wear revealing clothes (have you been to the little girls' section in a department store lately?! eye-opening!), teeter on stilettos, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseum.

This is why I ignore the media and surround myself only with male friends who enjoy my conversation and think I am pretty cool (and female friends, too, of course - I am just saying I have no time for men who visit Hooters, expect women to shave their vulvas - another incident of pornification if ever there was one!, etc.).

And, for the record, I am not ugly or sad or desperate. Ask around.

[mongo]

64. But porn is more a reflection of popular culture

than popular culture a reflection of porn. Our society isn't being driven by porn.

And the shaving thing -- geesh. It's more a hygeine and consideration of your partner thing than anything. Hell, I shave and my anatomy is a lot more complicated to shave than yours.

[StellaBlue]

67. hahahaha

having hair "down there" is natural. I find this whole obession with hairlessness totally creepy. And I daresay very, very few people did it before it became mainstreamed in the last 10-20 years. And I don't know about your anatomy being a lot more complicated to shave than mine. Though, to be fair, I never intend to try it, so I don't really know how hard it would be. :crazy:

And, again, I disagree. Porn is driven my men's fantasies. Popular culture is driven by men's fantasies and Madison Avenue's desire to make lots of $$$ off stupid women with no self esteem.

I didn't say our society is driven by porn. Our society is driven by worship of the almighty dollar, and a desperate attempt to maintain a previously-unheard-of-in-the-history-of-humankind level of luxury living that is becoming increasingly impossible to sustain in the face of a booming world population, dwindling world resources, and impending ecological disaster. $0.02.

I will maintain, however, that the image of women in the popular media IS now driven by porn.

[mongo]

71. Are men without beards "creepy" too?

Because having hair there is natural too...

[StellaBlue]

72. maybe to some people

and if I was a man, I would not enjoy shaving my face every day, either, I can assure you. But it's much less invovled than removing all your crotch hair! haha

The problem I have with this whole phenomenon is that it is now expected that women (not men - though obviously some men, such as yourself, are doing it) will be hairless "down there". I daresay any boys growing up today will be shocked if, when they encounter their first real woman, she has hair, because they will have become so used to the hairless, airbrushed magazine sexbots. And there is nothing "unhygenic" about having hair. Are men with beards dirty?

[trekbiker]

126. is it really becoming the norm outside of porn?

I only recently bought a personal computer for home use and started poking around the net. I have 20+ years of work computer experience but "illicit" sites are blocked at the company firewall. Anyway.. there is a LOT of porn out there as well as some seriously sick disturbing stuff. And you are right, the shaving thing is everywhere in porn (been 10-15 years since I've seen porn and things have changed... shaved crotches (male and female) piercings and tattoos mostly... but it is still the same basic repetitive bore I remember)

how about armpits and legs??? and plucking the errant hair... come on Stella.. you cant honestly tell me you are completely "natural"..

[StellaBlue]

130. No, of course not

But the time/money investment in shaving all that area is just NOT worth it. Plus I feel perfectly sexy as I am, so why bother? If some man doesn't like it, then fuck him - or to be more accruate, don't fuck him.

I do have perfect eyebrows, though. ;)

[Benhurst]

109. Yes.

Benhurst, the bearded one

:rofl:

[StellaBlue]

111. they might be if you were, like, Hasidic

:rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. Having hair on the top of your head is natural.

Do you never cut that either? Seriously, I don't know what's creepy about it. I'm with mongo. It's just a matter of hygiene and consideration to your partner. Honestly, I expect at least a close trim. It's just neater.

Oh and people seriously give porn wayyyy too much credit for shaping popular culture. It's also not all for men's fantasies. There are plenty of women out there who enjoy porn and there are women out there producing it, as well. I fail to understand the "feminist" obsession with using porn as a scapegoat.

[StellaBlue]

76. Do you not see the similarities between "celebrity" women and pornstars?

Seriously...? The whole, scantily-clad, breast-implant, airbrushed, collagen-lipped, stiletto-teetering, blonder-the-more-famous-they-get, pole-dancing-as-empowering-workout crap? Look at the teenage girls you see out there, especially. Like the Simpsons, Hulk Hogan's daughter, etc. It's like a race to see who can look the porniest. :shrug:

And I still totally, TOTALLY disagree about the "hygiene" aspect of genital hair shaving. I do not appreciated being called dirty for having hair that all grown women have. And I certainly cannot see having a painful, expensive waxing job done every few days (yes, it would be days for me, no doubt) just to satify the porn-influenced and/or pedophiliac desires of some stupid ape with a penis. Only one man has ever mentioned the subject to me, and he was a total misognyist, anyway. None of the decent guys I have gone out with seemed to have a hang-up about this. Just like I wouldn't want to date a man who shaves his penis. Weird.

And, yes, I do actually have rather long hair on my head, thankyouverymuch. Getting it trimmed happens about every 6 months, doesn't hurt, and costs me $15. No comparison.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

79. As to your "porniest race," correlation does not equal causation.

Also, I didn't call you dirty. Those are your words not mine. And for the record, my desires are neither porn-influenced or pedophiliac. I'm also not some stupid ape, especially not one with a penis, seeing as how I'm a lesbian.

There is a comparision to the hair on your head, since one of your arguments to keep hair "down there" was because it is natural. The hair on your head, legs, and underarms are also all natural and as such, it's a valid comparision.

[StellaBlue]

81. What does "hygiene" mean to you, then?

I wasn't referring to you as an ape. Just to most Murkin men.

[mongo]

82. Ever heard of a razor?

It doesn't take going to a professional to keep it shaved.

Lisa Simpson is a scantily-clad, breast-implant, airbrushed, collagen-lipped, stiletto-teetering...?

D'oh! Guess that's the wrong Simpson....

[StellaBlue]

90. hahahahahaha

You must've have only dated women who are very fair, fine-haired types. I am the thick, dark-haired type. The thought of even once successfully shaving off all the hair down there is laughable, much less keeping it up. I never understood how it's supposed to work. I would just have raxorburn for two days, by which time it would be all stubbly again. Ewwwww. That is FAR less attractive, IMHO (not to mention painful for your partner!) than just leaving the hair to begin with. Nevermind ingrown hairs, which you would then have to TWEEZE. Egads. And where do you stop shaving? Does this mean you also have to have your thighs hairless 24/7, to match? And what about the hair that creeps up from your crotch to your belly button area (yes, plenty of women have at least a little hair there, though that's totally taboo, I know!). Seriously, if I want to look presentable by mainstream patriarchal standards, I'd have to shave my legs a minimum of every 24 hours. It's just not worth it. Besides, most hetero women do not have trouble finding men who are willing to sleep with them, if that's what they're after.

It's a spectrum. You can do nothing, or you can be a hairless chihuahua. Most people are somewhere in between. Most men do not have long dredlocks and beards, for instance, but neither do they shave their balls! I trim the hair on my head and shave my legs sometimes because it's not too much trouble and I like the way it looks/feels. I do not shave/wax my crotch because it seems WAY too time-consuming as well as painful in terms of hours spent and upkeep.

My original urge to post on this topic at all springs from the fact that many, many women feel pressured to look like porn stars. No hair whatsoever except for long, yellow extensions on their heads, big, balloon-like "breasts", the thighs of a ten-year-old, etc. I'm not buying it. Most women who do all that are doing it because they lack self-confidence and any sense of what they want from life outside of a man's attention an/or access to his wallet. I have more important things to do.

And, on that note, I am off to help mybest friend's boyfriend with a strange dog show she has somehow roped him into doing (I am the videographer, apparently!). :rofl:

[ismnotwasm]

85. Sex sells

And does shape popular culture. The porn industry understands this, naturally. So do car commercials, for that matter, as well as all sorts of advertising and TV shows.

The question for me would be is porn reflecting popular culture, rather than influencing it? Where is this "popular culture" coming from?

It's all about expectations. The culture that I probably won't live to see, with open, honest and equal sexuality not based on the objectification and degradation of women is one of the things I work toward as a feminist. As well as true liberation.

Not demonizing, or "scapegoating" porn.

Society expects women to be hairless, except on their heads. And it *is* a problem, or rather a symptom-- of what unrealistic expectations do to women. As far a personal choice, well, it's personal choice. But If a women chooses NOT to trim, shave, what have you, she gets called names. Most are very unpleasant.

There is a type of anorexia that young girls with Type 1 diabetes suffer from. They let their blood sugars get out of control so they loose calories, and weight. Very scary. Another symptom. And yes the two are related.

What should/does a woman look like?

[mongo]

92. Sex in any kind of media

is objectification -- whether it is in a romance novel, car commercial, movie, etc.

Any kind of sex presented as art is by definition objectification of sex.

Are men objectified in porn? Hell, in a lot of movies you never even see the man's face! He's just a disembodied cock. Men also make way less than women in porn too.

What should a woman look like? This is more influenced by CLASS than any other factor. Come out here
to Appalacian America and you will find that many women don't wear makeup, etc.

[Gormy Cuss]

93. The work of Jean Kilbourne on advertising images is interesting.

I saw her do a lecture of her first "Killing Us Softly" film ages ago and she has updated it several times since. That series is specifically about images of women and girls in advertisements and how such messages may influence our cultural standards for beauty and desirable traits.

[MaraJade]

100. All too sad but true--and this animalistic devaluation of women

is having horrible effects on our daughters and sons.

I have a healthy, athletic 15-year-old daughter who is a figure skater.
Recently she's began to think herself "fat" because of her highly developed leg muscles.

When I tell her that those muscles are what helps her to do the double Axel and the Triple Salchow, she hardly listens. All she can think of is that she cannot wear size 3 jeans anymore because "my butt's too big."
What would lead such a talented young girl to think like this? The images that she sees on TV and in magazines.

She showed me some pictures of girls in Seventeen magazine and kept on asking me which type she most resembled. When I chose an athletic girl
(I believe the information said that the girl played soccer), Sarah burst into tears and screamed, "I knew it--I'm fat!"

Thanks to the celebrity-obsessed, perfection consumed entertainment industry (which is definitely fed by the ubiquitous image of the scantily-clad sex nymphet), healthy girls now think of themselves as
"fat" and "undesirable." We've more than crossed a dangerous line as bulemia and anorexia and plastic-surgery-addiction have destroyed the body image of a whole new generation.

Yet, oddly enough, none of this seems to have any similar effect on men.
Fat, beer-bellied, balding, hairy--men are universally accepted as they are. The natural bodies of men are never questioned or maligned. But if a woman goes Au Naturel, she becomes somehow disgusting. We need to ask ourselves why the pressure is on women to masquerade as department store mannekins or sexual side show freaks.

[StellaBlue]

110. Indeed

But, even if these girls were fat or undesirable (which they are NOT!), why would they be so totally devastated about it except that they think the ultimate goal in life is to attract boys. Ugh.

I feel your pain.

This reminds me, my coworker has an eight-year-old daughter, and apparently she's started asking if she's "fat". :eyes: From the looks of her mother, I would be very surprised if she has any chance whatsoever of developing a weight problem. Her mom is tall and thin. And now also confused and sad for her daughter.

[Nikia]

117. But it isn't just about attracting men

That would be like saying that men want to have a high status job and make a good salary because they want to attract women.
While the looking good to attract men, especially desirable men is part of it, another part of it is the pursuit of status and perfection. These messages come from the media. They come from boys and men. They come from other girls and women. They come from within.
Maybe it is the pursuit of selling products, corporatism, and the American dream being twisted, but society does seem to promote this pursuit towards success and perfection. For women, a great deal of success is being thin and beautiful, just for the sake of that success. It is just like how some people have to live in a big home to feel successful.

[StellaBlue]

118. You're right.

Most of the women who are seriously mentally ill in this regard do not care about men at all. Like the people with the really terrible cases of anorexia. They are not trying to attract men. They are just sick.

[MaraJade]

119. Think about what you are saying. . .please think!

You've fallen into the trap.

The "pursuit of success (status) and perfection" = meeting the societal standard of "beauty" and "thinness"?

Why in the worlds is that?

Funny this. To me, the "pursuit of success and perfection" is inextricably linked with the
attainment of higher education, of wisdom and knowledge, of getting and holding employment that is
both empowering and financially viable, of sharing the gifts in life by helping and mentoring others,
especially young people.

Appearance is superficial and transitory. Illness, accident or misfortune can take "looks" away overnight.
The only thing one truly owns is what one knows and spreading knowledge is the true essence of "status" and
"Perfection."

We are a very sick society when looks and appearance is tantamount to perfection and success.

[distantearlywarning]

137. In my experience

The pressure to be thin, airbrushed, made up, bleached, etc. comes from other women and the fashion industry, not from men. Also in my experience women who are affected by this pressure are not so much interested in what men think about them, but about living up to some kind of social ideal that they see in other women.

Many of the men I know, at least the ones over the age of 25, appreciate a wide standard of beauty and will happily accept women with a few extra pounds, small breasts, no makeup, *insert "flaw" here*: in sum, something far short of beauty queen material. The women I know don't seem to realize that fact or care much about it, which makes me believe that attracting men is not actually the ultimate goal.

[Mountainman]

22. "Feminism failed" is a pretty broad statement. I don't see it that way.

The way women are today and the way they were when I was growing up in the 50's is so different. I work with a women who is going to be 70 in a couple of months and she is going to retire then. She is our HR manager. When I was growing up that never would have happened. She is not a man in a skirt and I think that is a very derogatory term. It reminds me of a man who still wants to keep women "in their place." I am proud of the feminist women of today. My wife is one and her success in the work place helps me pay the bills and that is quite a relief for me. I don't have to be the sole bread winner and since she is younger than me I can retire while she works to support us. My mother-in-law was the president of her NOW group a while back. What she taught my wife and her sisters about standing up for their rights in the workplace is something I really am thankful for. They all are women worthy of respect.

[StellaBlue]

28. Of course, but... I think what the author of that post is really trying

to say is

that we still can't "have it all" - and men can.

When women entered the workforce en masse, and got to reasonably high-level positions (we're still nowhere near equality in this regard!!!), the system did not change to accomodate their needs. Childcare is expensive and inconvenient. The corporate culture is still overwhelmingly masculine. Maternity leave, in this country, is a joke. Ditto for paid vacation. Healthcare, especially for women, is overpriced and often unaffordable, even to women working fulltime professional jobs. We had an opportunity to recreate "work" into something that serves more than the corporate, oligarchic puppet-masters, something that WORKED for PEOPLE (men AND women), but we missed the boat. In order to get a leg up, women played along instead of demanding to be accomodated (it *is* a "man's game", after all), feeling lucky to even be at the table... and we all lost, long-term.

Only two of my about-twelve-women strong circle of friends, all in their late twenties/early thirties, working, supporting themselves, some in committed relationships (only one married), want kids. One has a single child, and gave up work; another is desperately seeking a mate, in the stereotypical fashion, as she approaches 30. The rest of us figure we can't, realistically, expect to have kids. For timing and financial reasons, nevermind the fact that I, speaking for myself, never meet many men that I would want to reproduce with. Ha. Seriously, we are the ones (intelligent, liberal, pro-humanity) who SHOULD be having kids, but we realize we can't do that AND pay our student loans / have a career / buy a house. I blame this partly on the Republicanization of the economy since we graduated from college; but also on the lack of accomodation for women, and men - people who value their LIVES more than the corporate treadmill.

/rant

[Mountainman]

36. I must tell you that there are many days when I am glad I am not a

woman and not a young woman in today's world. I am sixty years old and all my life I have watched women struggle with situations that I never had to. I my private world I have always had a hard time with that and am left with the thought that it isn't happening to me yet there is something I should do to make it better. I have always been a supervisor of women in my career and do all I can to help them advance and to not accept being put in position that forces them to accept less than a man gets. I admire you and hope life can be what you want it to be for yourself.

[Forrest Greene]

50. Thank You

...for your accurate restatement of what I hoped to get across.

Thanks also for the Gadsden flag & for the transitive nightful of diamonds implicit in your moniker.



ETA Pardon me, that was a "night _fall_ of diamonds," I think, though "full" works, too.

[StellaBlue]

51. hehehehehehe

:giggling:

[Forrest Greene]

47. I Agree, It Is An Over-Broad Statement

To be more precise, may I say that "what seems to me to be, among its many important successes, an important failure of feminism, is..."?

What I want to say, put another way, is that feminism seems to me to have in many ways attempted to play a power game on the terms of those who hold the power. This is an approach usually doomed to failure & co-optation, which it seems to me has happened in many important ways. In the long run, the House always wins. Often, in the short run, too.

I too am proud of & respect feminist women. My unhappiness is _not_ that feminism has carried us all as far as it has, it is that feminism has not been able to carry us all _further._



ETA a missed "e"

[StellaBlue]

25. I agree

I don't buy into the values of the mainstream, corporate society. Hence, as Katharine Hepburn advised, I've decided it's impossible to have it all and sworn off marriage and children in order to read, travel, make art, and have a circle of great friends. This way I am independent and not forced into wage slavery to uphold all the trappings of the suburban dream. I would be happy with my current lifestyle (pretty meagre) for the rest of my life, except I would like to get out of (mostly student) debt and have time/money to travel (but in this country you're lucky to get 2-3 weeks vacation grrrrr).

/rant

[pooja]

34. self delete

[ecstatic]

17. more beautful, perfect faces/bodies on TV and magazines

Were women airbrushed back then as heavily as they are now? Not only that but men are so unwilling to commit these days due to the huge availability of commitment free sex options that women feel they have to be on the very top of their game.

[StellaBlue]

65. this is not directed at you personally, but

Why do women give a shit? Who wants a man, ANY man, just for the sake of having one? 99% of the time they just bring you more headaches than they are worth. If we have to bully them with the threat of no sex to get them to commit and give us families, who wants em? I do agree, though, that feminism, has in this regard, done a disservice to women. We can now have sex like men, but most of us don't want to. Most of us want an emotional connection. Most men don't. This reminds me of Bill Maher's recent pronouncement: "85% of women want to get married, and 15% of men do, and therein lies the problem." Point being, those women who desperately want a home and babies are now screwed, because they gave up the little leverage they had over the huge majority of men. I still think we're better off, though. What with being able to have credit in our own names and all.

Seriously. This is why I couldn't care less whether I ever "find anyone" or "settle down". I meet very few men that I consider worthy to see me naked.

[ecstatic]

89. wow, thanks for the much needed reality check

I'm single once again and every now and then I get depressed but lately I'm starting to see things your way!

[StellaBlue]

94. I am finding I am very, very happy lately

Ever since my partner of four years did a nasty break-up job on me (really, really bad - long story).

I've always been the feminist, outspoken, non-crotch-waxing type. I don't like most men (or most women, either, really, but for different reasons!); I don't like the way they think (from a woman's perspective, they DON'T, and that's the problem haha). But I have had a series of steady boyfriends who I really liked and who I largely had amicable break-ups with. I had a date to both my junior and senior proms (I asked HIM junior year ha!); I go for long periods being single, then find myself in along, serious relationship. I hate "dating". I don't play games. Most people seem to want to, even men, who claim it's women who play mind games. HA!

But now, as my friends and I approach the supposed chasm of 30 - and single - I am finding I am very, very happy and not likely to compromise my independence and happiness. I was never boy crazy. I just don't get it. I don't get being depressed because you're single. You can do whatever you want, whenever you want. As long as you have friends and/or supportive family, you are O-K! :D

[trekbiker]

128. you're in your late 20's...

it would be interesting to hear your take when you hit your late 40's. I hope you will be single, successful and an accomplished artist (art will be my next "career" since I never plan to really retire). As a lifelong "committed" bachelor I suppose I can thank the feminist movement for helping make the single lifestyle more acceptable (to myself as well as society). Its OK to not want kids or marriage or "till death do you part" committment. I just love the freedom and the older I get (48 now) the more I love it. Not BORING. The freedom to make decisions without "compromising" is wonderful. And the financial freedom is incredible if you've managed to be semi smart with money (thats somewhat selfish but I dont care). Having the money, free time and lack of entanglements to pursue just about anything I want... well.. it doesnt get much better.. but its not for everyone, male or female. People just need to be truly comfortable on thier own path and not try to force fit a particular lifestyle and end up miserable 20 years down the road. I do feel bad for many of the women who, as you stated "desperately want a home and babies".. more than a couple wasted precious time with me before realizing that I seriously wasnt going to change..

[StellaBlue]

129. I will probably still be living here and working at the same place!

hahahaha

I really pretty much have everything I want. :D Only I'd like to be out of debt so I could travel. And I would consider buying a house, if I could ever afford it single (not likely around here).

Kudos to you. It's hard out here for a revolutionary.

[tinfoilinfor2005]

20. I had an eyelid lift five years ago when I realized

I was scaring little children. Now I look better and feel better. No big deal. We now have the technology to do some tweaking, and I say, great! Back in the middle ages people didn't go to dentists. Just let the old teeth fall out.

The world changes and those who want to take advantage of the changes are welcome to do so. I don't think that makes them masochists or exhibitionists or denialists. (is that a word?

[pippin]

24. I don't negate some of the reasons

for cosmetic surgery. I have been told some times eyelid surgery becomes necessary when aging lids start to get in the way of being able to see, of reconstructive surgery--post mastectomies, breast reductions, burn repairs etc., etc.,

[hedgehog]

33. I suspect this has more to do with status and culture than with gender.

You have to have a certain amount of cash to be able to afford plastic surgery. I would look silly in my town wearing the kind of make-up that is the norm in NYC or LA. I would like to see a breakdown of surgeries by region and income.

[StellaBlue]

69. FYI

I don't know where you are from, but by your post I am guessing it is rural. And, mostly, the people in NYC probably wear WAY less makeup than in your area. Especially if you live in the South or Midwest. :D

[hedgehog]

122. LOL - I'm thinking of the Great Lakes and the Upper Midwest.

You're right about more southerly areas. Around here , red lipstick is a shocker.

[InvisibleTouch]

38. I don't really have an insightful explanation, but...

...I remember a young woman on a morning talk show who had already had numerous plastic surgeries, and was obsessing about how to afford all the other procedures that she felt she absolutely had to have done before her wedding. She kept comparing herself to movie stars and actresses, and even when told that most of them really did look like normal people underneath the makeup, lights, and airbrushing, she didn't care; she wanted to look like their image. She herself was quite pretty, and not yet 30. She thought she looked old and awful.

Now, there's nothing wrong, IMO, with wanting to look good. I know that when I take the time to dress up a little and do my makeup nicely, etc., I do feel better about myself and more confident. Say what you will, but for women in our society, looks are power, at least of one form. And I don't think that's necessarily bad, nor that it has anything to do with age or having an idealized body-type. You don't have to be a stellar beauty, but if you come across like you're well-groomed and have paid some attention to your appearance, you present a much more confident image. That's just self-respect. (And it's true of men too, incidentally.) When you respect yourself, others will respect you as well.

There's a world of difference between that attitude, and the sense that one is so powerless and undeserving of respect that no physical enhancement is ever good enough. Those are the women who will have procedure after procedure and still look at themselves in the mirror and feel ugly. It's not a physical problem - it's an emotional one. What they need is not another boob job or eye-tuck, but the realization that they're worthy of respect in and of themselves. I'm not sure it's possible to give that to someone, when they've perhaps grown up being told they were unimportant. It's possible to find that realization, but I don't think it can come from outside oneself. If it hinges upon the approval of another person, for instance a significant other, then what happens when that person leaves? It's got to come from inside, so no one can take it from you.

Just my random thoughts on the topic.

[Annces]

39. Many women including so-called feminists still put their physical beauty

first. They certainly don't have to. Getting surgery to look more beautiful is one heck of a conscious choice.

[ismnotwasm]

40. I guess because it's available

Has become culturally acceptable and is very, very big business. To me it's simple. Messages are constantly and consistently being sent to women on what they should look like. The reality of what we look like falls short. It has too. It's not based in reality.
I've seen this in culturally beautiful women, who have been told all their lives how "pretty you are" Yet most of the ones I've talked to feel somehow shorted, something is always wrong, breast aren't big enough, legs are too long, I've heard complaints about damn belly buttons. Others tend to use their beauty as a commodity. I won't go there.

And we've lost subtlety in our sexuality or presentation of it. Backs and necks can be very sexy, for instance. But the regulation of women to the body parts of tits, ass and legs negates the subtle. The Barbie doll, who perhaps innocently started much of this trend, IMO,-- what's scary is the numbers of women who-perhaps unconsciously, get enough surgery to look like Barbie
High heels finish off the effect. Large eyes, pouty lips, breast very large in proportion to waist and hips. Make up skillfully applied fools the eye to present what we don't have in nature. I remember reading that added high heels from an anthropological standpoint puts women in what may be a mating posture, or gesture.

One of the reasons I don't judge women who choose the the veil, or head coverings, (although I wish it was "a" choice for all women in religions or cultures that promote such things)is that American women are quite good at a different form of veiling. It's a less honest form of veiling. It not religious per se, perhaps some sort of protective measure. Or perhaps a new religion of a new type. The worship of the body through mutilation. Pain can certainly bring insight. And the expression of outward pain may be communicating inward suffering.

And it start so very, very young in the lives of young girls.

I always remember women life in fear. Constant, daily fear, that may or may not be in the forefront of their conscienceness. Fear of sexual violence, or violence, fear of not being pretty, or pretty enough, fear of entering a male dominating profession. Fear of choice, fear of loosing choice. Fear of being or not wanting to be a mother, or not a good enough mother. Fear of other women. Fear of men. Anyone can increase a fear list. Fear. I think of that famous quote in Dune by Frank Herbert "Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration"

While men suffer from fear as well, they tend not to have the body dysmorphic problems we are experiencing. The quick answer is that in a patriarchy, they don't need to. Any couch potato male who would be considered "unattractive" can watch-- oh say-- "Deal or no Deal" and a bevy of culturally beautiful women (stepford like if you ask me) present themselves at the beginning of the show, all with Barbie like bodies, inviting smiles, carrying cases that represent money.

To finish the quote by Herbert "I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see it's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain"


And that's the direction I would like to see women go. When we face our fear, when we are allowed, when we are able, the self mutilation will slow, and eventually stop.

One more thing. I have nothing against anyone trying to be or just is, attractive, pretty or sexy. I do it myself. I do it for me, however, and for me it's tied into physical fitness. I like the art of self decoration as well, but as some may guess, it's not in a conventional sense, at least for me.

But when this search for attractiveness leads to misery and disappointment (I have a sister in this category)it become something much more sinister, unhealthy and deadly.

[bicentennial_baby]

43. I don't see a parallel between Cutting/Surgery and Tatooing/Piercing

:shrug: Two totally different types of things...

[ismnotwasm]

53. Interesting point

I suppose the best parallel would be when women do it only to enhance desirability to a male, at least from a feminist standpoint.

Most-but not all-- of the women I know with piercings and tats do it for themselves including all three of my daughters. I warned them (risks and benefits) What I noticed is the inconvenient piercings went away quick. I have a 20 year old right now who has made a couple of unfortunate decisions in her tattoos, but was smart enough to keep them simple and fixable. She also has a beautiful piece from the top of her foot to ankle (0ouch) My oldest daughter, 28, who was a soldier, has interesting piercings and tattoos. Even my son has HIS son's name tattooed in Japanese over his heart. (as well as couple of others) None of my children are piercing or tattoo extremists.

I've always thought piercings and tattooing--even branding are a return to a primal expression of self. But there is pain involved, and any time pain is involved, I wonder about the deeper motivation. Not nessisarily in a negative way, just musing mostly.

To me, the point of the OP is the geis of beauty or body alteration tends to fall on women in our world in a disproportionate manner.

[Gormy Cuss]

55. They are different but have one underlying similarity:

the desire to modify the natural condition of one's body for purely cosmetic reasons. The motivations for tats and piercing are usually in the mode of adornment through self-expression, while most cosmetic surgery is adornment by 'fixing' flaws or age-related changes to express an image more conforming to a beauty standard.

At least, I think that is how they are related. I have holes in my head so what do I know.:shrug:

[Jed Dilligan]

46. Body modification is a right

Implants, piercings, tats, suction, circumcision, taking drugs, wearing makeup, getting a sex change, getting an abortion.

It's all elective body modification and I would defend anyone's right to do it to herself--or himself.

I don't like to look at cosmetically altered women, but it's their own business what they do. On the other hand, I can appreciate the expressive beauty of (some) tattoo and piercing art on men or women. I wouldn't lump it all together in the category of "catering to men."

The "death and resurrection" idea gets closer to the complex sociology of this phenomenon than the "failure of feminism."

People, men and women alike, have adorned themselves, sometimes brutally, for hundreds of thousands of years. Why would one generation of activists think they could put a stop to it? And why is it framed as just a women's issue? What about today's men with their liposuction, penile implants, Rogaine, Viagra, calf and pect implants, tattoos, piercings, crossdressing, etc?

[leftofthedial]

54. one must be ever vigilant about what one asks for

because on might get it

[Lilith Velkor]

56. If that's female masochism, what's childbirth?

Men get plastic surgery done all the damn time, and it's somehow not a gender issue with them... :eyes:

That being said, "looks-ism" does impact women far more than men. The corporate culture doesn't care, there's money to be made, so they encourage insecurity however they can.

[Proud2BAmurkin]

57. If men could spend $20,000 on surgery then retire in luxury

we would. Maybe it's a cold calculated investment by women to attract men and their money. No flames, I respect it.

[Generic Other]

66. manufactured from fetal foreskin stem cells?? WTF? WTF?

Along with the reporting, Kuczynski provides delicious tidbits for the cocktail-party circuit: that, for example, the synthetic collagen called Cosmoplast is manufactured from fetal foreskin stem cells harvested from a single baby boy, who would now be a teenager. (It’s probably a good thing, she notes, that he doesn’t know that cells from his penis are filling “the lips of hundreds of thousands of men and women around the planet.” He might need as many therapists.)

Damn, that's seriously messed up. Like something out of Fight Club! Or Frankenstein! Was this some sick male researcher's idea of a joke???

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. I'm pierced and tattooed and it has nothing to do with self-loathing

or death and resurrection. This woman has her judgemental head up her ass if she's comparing it to the *disease* of eating disorders.

[mongo]

84. Thank you!

[woo me with science]

87. Well, women who get boob jobs would say it isn't for self-loathing, either

Try asking one sometime.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

88. Maybe they're self-loathing. Maybe not.

I know one woman with implants. She seemed pretty damn confident to me, and she certainly wasn't doing it for any man. I think people have the right to do whatever they want with their bodies.

Oh and by the way, do you have your ears pierced? If so, why did you get your ears pierced?

[woo me with science]

114. yes i do, and i was not arguing against piercings

just the implication that they are different from any other type of body modification.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

115. I was arguing against the author's view that they were comparable to

having an eating disorder, which is a disease. The author's viewpoint is ignorant and judgemental.

[Cleita]

77. Sometimes a little work to smooth wrinkles and tighten facial

contours can make an older woman feel better about herself. I'd do it if I could afford it. However, there is a Michael Jackson type of addiction to cosmetic surgery that should be discouraged by any reputable plastic surgeon. As a matter of fact, there should be a law about it so that a doctor who practices plastic surgery on such patients could be brought up before a medical board of examiners and fined for any abuses they uncover.

[ScreamingMeemie]

83. I used to be completely anti plastic surgery, until I became ill.

Had several surgeries on my abdomen that made it a rather unsightly place to be. As soon as I can you bet I'm getting the scars blasted off and the useless (it's numb now anyway) skin removed. It's not a matter of self hatred, it's a matter of feeling better about myself. If I can't afford it, I'll survive...if I can, I'm doing it. :hi:

[earth mom]

86. The pressure to be attractive is so intense that women either serve

that master to the tune of endless diets, makeup, hair dos, clothes and plastic surgery or they opt the hell out and say fuck it. That's what I did. I was on that hellish roller coaster ride for years until we moved out of southern california in the late 90s. The only thing I didn't buy into was plastic surgery which I couldn't afford but more importantly didn't believe in in the first place. But, the hair, the weight, the clothes-yes. After I'd been gone for a couple of years, I went back with my graying hair-not colored or weaved any longer, my glasses-not contact lenses, my un-toned body and my comfy clothes and yes I felt like a visitor from another planet but I was happier with ME and who I was that I just didn't care. I also noticed anew the MANY rail thin women with their out of proportion boobs and their fake waxy ghoulish plastic surgery faces and I seriously felt ill. It was like looking at the walking dead! I kid you not. I was so glad to go back north and just be myself and not have to feel like it wasn't okay to just be me. However, due to the housing boom in California a LOT of those fakey fakes have been moving up here the past few years and it's aggravating. When we first moved up here, you rarely saw trendy clothes or weaved hair or the superficial attitude that often goes with it. Now I see it more than I care to. Fuck em. :mad:

[MaraJade]

102. And the reason why there is so much pressure is because of the

sex-mad media, a media machine that is run mostly by and for men.

As I said in a previous post, for some schizophrenic reason, an unadorned and unimproved man is held in far higher esteem by our culture than a similar woman.

Pornography can be blamed for a large measure of this, followed closely by the so-called fashion industry, which holds forth a "standard" of feminine beauty that is impossible for mere ordinary women to attain without putting themselves through hell.

And those women who are willing to go through the hells of the expensive clothes, shoes, makeup, severe diets, surgeries and the like get rewarded while the rest of us hear the whispered "boy, has she let herself go's" behind our backs.

Why is that? We'd all better find out pretty damn soon, because what we have on our hands is an entire generation of young girls who are banking an unhealthy hatred of self, and an entire generation of young boys who think that their future wives must look like porn stars or supermodels.

By the way. . I feel pretty qualified to speak on this issue as I am a former professional model. When I was modeling, I really got a closeup look at the deception and fakery of the modeling world: how they really can use tricks to make silk purses out of sows ears. Any man who wants a woman that looks like she stepped out of the Victoria's Secret catalog is living a fantasy life indeed. He's never going to find her. Hello! Not even the so-called supermodels really look like that. It's all faked. Any woman who wants to look like that is pursuing a futile dream. It's all an illusion, all puffery and airbrushing and surgery and digitizing. This is why we are now seeing plastic surgery disasters everywhere. These dream standards are impossible for humans to attain.

It's nice to fantacize and dream, but as Rowling said, " “It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live.” Any person whose ideal self or ideal mate is based upon images served up by the media is not dealing realistically with life.

[mrreowwr_kittty]

125. You can't escape it.

You either buy into it and devote a substantial chunk of your time and cash to your appearance or you don't and suffer social and even professional consequences. I've seen brochures for cosmetic surgeons that tout the career-enhancing benefits of procedures! And you know what? It's true.

I work for a major hi-tech corporation. And generally speaking, appearance and being fashionable are probably not high on the priorities of most of the engineers and techs who surround me. But I've noticed that most of the top-level managers, male and female, are slim and good-looking. The women are especially Stepford-ish. Blonde size 2s with startlingly straight, white teeth. They can only be distinguished from typical Scottsdale, AZ trophy wives by the fact that their boob jobs aren't quite so outlandishly oversized.

It's freakin' bizarre.

[CrispyQ]

135. Oh yes, let's not forget the blindingly white, white teeth.

It's a color not found in nature.

[neebob]

104. I think it's OK to want to look good

for yourself, within reason - and that means through proper diet, exercise, and grooming. But there will always be businesses to take advantage of those who never feel they look good enough, never have enough stuff and things, never feel whole no matter what.

With regard to the porn-driven society, only women can change that. Unfortunately, right now there just aren't that many of us who realize how unsatisfying and stupid it is to spend your life in the pursuit and maintenance of men. Most of us are too busy being taken advantage of by the beauty industry, the media, and individual men to even stop and think, much less do anything about it.

Before you men get too riled up, I'll add that most of us are also too busy using men for money. Too few of us are really truly willing to support ourselves.

Other than children, there's nothing a man can give you that you can't get from a rewarding career, caring fun girlfriends, and a vibrator. I'm not saying we don't need men - just that they're not the glittering prizes we're taught to want. If more of us stopped chasing them and expecting them to take care of us and, yes, blaming them for problems that we allow and enable, more of them would respect us.

I don't see that happening until we lose this outdated and I think mostly religious idea that men and women are supposed to pair off for life and that's the very best way to raise children and we must all reproduce at least twice. Until the traditional family becomes just one of many equally viable choices. Until it becomes okay - and I mean really okay, and not just a marginally acceptable alternative - to pair off with someone of the same gender, to never marry, to have had many relationships, to be a single parent, to be deliberately childless. Until society supports everyone's choices equally.

[Nikki Stone 1]

105. There are 4 kinds of plastic surgeries

I think there are diffent kinds of plastic surgery to consider before presenting the topic in class. First, there is the really necessary kind for burn victims, kids with fetal alcohol syndrome (cleft lip) and the like. These surgeries are done to bring the patient back to some kind of normal after some kind of injury or birth defect. I think these kinds of surgeries are blessings and truly necessary.

Then there are the surgeries done for the correction of "problems"--liposuction (to even out proportions), nose jobs (and other surgeries to make something that seems "unsightly" be more "normal"), and even gastro-bypass surgery (not plastic, but an elective surgery) to bring down weight. {One can argue that bypass is actually health related in the morbidly obese, but the host of side effects of this surgery--including that it is often not permanent-- make even that claim a little shakey, except for the most extreme cases.} These surgeries are not really necessary but understandable in certain cases. For example, if a kid is being incessantly ridiculed for having overly large ears, truly out of proportion with the rest of his body, then I would not deny that kid plastic surgery. It would make his life and future career a lot easier. However, perception as to what makes a body part "unsightly" and "out of proportion" varies, and people often see themselves as more unsightly than they actually are. That makes this category problematic--self hatred or insecurity can begin to play a part in some of these decisions.


The third case is a little more problematic; that is plastic surgery as a cure for aging and a way for, especially, a woman to keep her looks. On one hand, it's a woman's personal choice if she wants to undergo one or more of these procedures. On the other hand, age has a lot of physical effects and one can end up having any number of surgeries to correct all of these "problems". Each surgery carries great risks. I think people forget that they are taking a risk with their lives every time they have a surgery, and there is a significant amount of recovery time. The body part worked on is never the same after the surgery--it loses something because it has been compromised. And the body ages, even if the outer shell doesn't appear that way at first glance. More surgeries may be needed later.

This is the kind of surgery that seems to be driven by the boomers themselves. As the price of plastic surgery has come down and ABC's Extreme Makeover has been selling the idea of plastic surgery to millions, boomers are more inclined to take the medical risk to look younger. This is not just women but men as well. Sometimes, this kind of surgery is valuable--if your career depends on your looks or if you spend a lot of time on television, I can see wanting to look good for the camera. On the other hand, a multitude of plastic surgeries in America can change the face of aging to the extent that we are unable to accept the natural course of growing old and forget what it looks like. It could get to the point where 40-year olds are denied promotions because they don't look 25, even if their jobs are not about their appearance. If too many people look impossibly young at 40, 50 and 60, then those who do not elect to have surgery run the risk of losing jobs and opportunities. Plastic surgery to avoid looking old is physically unnecessary. This kind of surgery lends itself well to talking about American cultural values, the premium placed on youth and looks, and the denial that anything but there here and now is important.

The fourth kind of surgery worries me most. This is the Michael Jackson kind of elective surgery, where there is no physical problem (not even aging), but there is a psychological need to alter one's appearance for factors outside oneself. Breast enhancement, butt lifts and enhancement on young women and men, liposuction just for a different contour (not because you're out of proportion), and facial work when there is absolutely nothing wrong with the face--these are surgeries that are completely unnecessary and reflect most the prejudices of our society and the self-hatred that we carry with us. Michael Jackson is the archetypal case: he was a good looking black man when he started out. Not a damned thing wrong with him, and, in fact, a lot right. By the time he was finished, he had enacted every personal and societal self-hatred on his own body. That is one the reasons people can't stand to look at him to closely. He wears our racial prejudice (extreme lightening of the skin, caucasian features) as well as his own disturbed thoughts on self.

Jackson may be an extreme case (he had the money to be) but the impulse is there, built by a commercialized culture in which the human body is a commodity and not a vessle of divine energy. A culture in which we are all encouraged to hold ourselves to an often impossible physical standard, thereby keeping us focused on an endless quest to "perfect" our own looks {probably so we won't notice the ideas, principles and way of life that is our birthright being stolen from us by a new global power structure.:tinfoilhat:}

For women, it is all about keeping us feeling "not good enough". Feminism didn't fail--it brought about a great many improvements (and is still trying to do so)--but the forces that attack women as beings picked new ground. Women who work outside the home are attacked for not being home, and women who are home are attacked for not working. It's a no win situation. Women can be powerful, run their own lives, but they still are expected to marry, produce children and take care of the household. (Impossible) Women can achieve great things in their careers, but every once in awhile, an IQ test will come out to tell them that they are "not good enough". (Wrong and disheartening). Women are told that their minds are important but are pushed into plastic surgery by the constant barrage of messages that say the body needs to look perfect.

The whole thing is about keeping women's power in check. For every advance, there is an attack back. It's almost a societal reflex and it comes from some women as well as men. And it's all about control, power, and access to the means to get these.

But plastic surgery is not just a female thing anymore. Men are getting more and more surgeries done to approach the masculine ideal, whatever that is for them. In the end, I fully expect men to be almost as compelled to plastic surgery as women. AS the global order begins to squeeze the life out of our economy, the competition will be incredibly fierce, and plastic surgery will become a "must" to compete.

[Nikia]

107. Because we really haven't come a long way

I recently reread Backlash by Susan Fauladi. Even though she is talking about the 80's, she could be talking about these times as well. Feminists succeeded in some things and men saw it as a threat. One of the ways that women are being told what their place is by the media, which is male dominated. News stories, magazine articles, advertisements, television shows, movies, and all sorts of other media keeps telling women: We are important only for our sexuality and/or being mothers. We are only important in regards to our relationship to men. We are only bodies.
I am recovering from an eating disorder and for myself as well as many others with this problem that I have discovered is that it has little to do with wanting to appear attractive to get or keep a man. In fact, there it seems, as it does it DU, that there are a higher representation of lesbian and bisexual women who have eating disorders than the general population. I don't mean to speak for everyone who has suffered from an eating disorder because there are many variations in experience and attitude, but it isn't about that. It is about feeling that no matter what we do that we are never going to become good enough and that we are powerless. Starving ourselves and/or purging makes us feel that we are heading in the right direction even if we become more obsessed about our weight as we lose it. We also feel more powerful gaining control over our bodies in this way, even though ironically it causes us to be out of control.
Society plays a role because the message is everywhere that we are only our bodies (or at least that is the most important thing about us), that we are flawed if our bodies our flawed, our bodies are flawed if we don't look like the "beutiful" celebrities, we are fat if we are not underweight, we should always be eating less, we should always want to lose weight. Many of these messages are in ads in order to sell products, to make money. We take these messages to heart. Because of these messages, many of our friends and family do not realize that we have a problem until we are quite ill.
I don't know what the answer is. I suppose that the question is too personal for me. It isn't the fault of the woman's movement. If anything, I blame corporatism.

[oblivious]

116. This is a useful thread, but the ads are kind of creepy.

www.plasticsurgery.hk

Financing Plastic Surgery

La Plastic surgery

This is a very good topic for students.

[omega minimo]

120. Consumer culture, Glamorization of Exploitation, Cognitive Dissonance

"Here ritual, aesthetics, theatrics and exhibitionism are ceremonious enactments of self-annihilation in the hope of transcendence (if you’re a romantic) or escape (if you’re a realist). These are death and resurrection exercises."

"Why in a time when women <thanks to us older feminists> are theoretically free of many of the historical restraints to achievement?"


For the same reason that you put "theoretically" in that sentence. Young women (and men) grow up in a world where women are "theoretically" free of historic restraints and they also know or sense that it is an illusion; a world where exploitation of women has been glamorized to the point that some people (on this thread) have a hard time recognizing how completely porn has influenced current fashions (even for children!).


Stella Blue nailed it in several posts such as:

67. hahahaha
"Porn is driven my men's fantasies. Popular culture is driven by men's fantasies and Madison Avenue's desire to make lots of $$$ off stupid women with no self esteem......I didn't say our society is driven by porn. Our society is driven by worship of the almighty dollar, and a desperate attempt to maintain a previously-unheard-of-in-the-history-of-humankind level of luxury living that is becoming increasingly impossible to sustain in the face of a booming world population, dwindling world resources, and impending ecological disaster. $0.02........I will maintain, however, that the image of women in the popular media IS now driven by porn."


stella blue :yourock:


And here comes a reply which is an example of that which it denies the existence of :crazy:

Right before saying, "Oh and people seriously give porn wayyyy too much credit for shaping popular culture" the poster says "It's just a matter of hygiene and consideration to your partner. Honestly, I expect at least a close trim. It's just neater."

Apparently the person overlooked Stella Blue pointing out that "having hair "down there" is natural. I find this whole obession with hairlessness totally creepy. And I daresay very, very few people did it before it became mainstreamed in the last 10-20 years."

Yes, the fad was mainstreamed from the porn biz and now someone who "expects at least a close trim" thinks "people seriously give porn wayyyy too much credit for shaping popular culture."


These "death and resurrection exercises" are the result of -- as * would say -- mexed missages.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. A few things...

First off, thank you for the personal attack. Now onto buisiness...

1. My comment regarding "death and resurrection exercises" was in regards to the author's absurd comparision of piercing and tattoos to the diseases of anorexia and bulimia. That, my dear, is a baseless and bizarre comparison.

2. Women are not abused by the porn industry. I know many people involved in the industry and no one is being victimized, especially within the NYC alt-porn, which is what I am most familiar with.

3. A close trim is purely practical. Any more detail would break DU's rules, which I am choosing not to break despite the fact that you broke them within your post.

[omega minimo]

124. Chill

That was not a personal attack. It pointed out the ill-logic which you don't see, apparently don't want to see, or respond to the point. I would not direct that at you-- it's your choice to not get it. If you looked honestly at it, well then............

1. I don't know why you're responding to my comments as if they were about yours (which I didn't read). Except that you replied to Stella Blue's comment (also not directed at you) about "the porn-influenced and/or pedophiliac desires of some stupid ape with a penis" as if it WAS about you. I guess it's not always SOME men that think it's "all about them." :evilgrin:

2. Another point off base. It's not to do with my post.

3. Again, you miss the point-- that the trim fad came from porn.

3a. Again you insist on be offended and insulting, make false accusations..........



I did not mean to offend you by pointing out the ill logic. If you want to look at it, that's up to you. Otherwise, I'd say flick that chip off your shoulder. :hug:

SB: "And I certainly cannot see having a painful, expensive waxing job done every few days (yes, it would be days for me, no doubt) just to satify the porn-influenced and/or pedophiliac desires of some stupid ape with a penis."

[bicentennial_baby]

127. I'm glad I don't care about such crap...

I don't wear makeup, I dress to be comfortable...And I'd never get elective surgery of this kind...But again, piercings and tats aren't anywhere near related to eating disorders/plastic surgery/cutting, unless taken to some sort of pathological extreme, imho.

[AZBlue]

131. But we aren't "free of many of the historical restraints to achievement"

If we were, a female President wouldn't be a long-shot. If we were, pay would be equal among men and women for equal jobs. If we were, almost-naked women wouldn't be used to sell everything from cars to razors to clothing. If we were, there would be as many female CEOs and Presidents as male. If we were, we would have appropriate representation in Congress (only 15% of members of Congress are female while 51% of the US population are women). And so on. While some of the smaller more obvious restrictions were erased, generally we're still as stuck as ever.

[MuseRider]

132. If we were

we would not be talking about all of this. If we were being in any of those positions would not come with the description a "woman" President/CEO/Astronaut etc. Until I finally quit hearing "a woman" this or that I know that we need to keep up the work.

[Nikki Stone 1]

133. I agree completely AZBlue

And I fear that the gains we have won are being eroded by the Republican Congress. It is terrible that women's civil rights are dependent on party and are just not permanent.

[El Fuego]

134. Beauty is power, it's just a harsh fact of life

A woman who recognizes this fact IS a feminist. Why do the Taliban make women hide behind burquas their whole lives? To take away their power.

I've read articles like that before which were written by women, and I think they're based on jealousy. At the heart of it they simply don't think it's fair that a woman can out-wit the ravages of time and/or the hereditary hand they were dealt with cold hard cash paid to a surgeon.

As far as "a display of culturally conditioned self-hatred" goes, you could make the same case for hair dye, permanents, curling irons, orthodontia, makeup, high heels, hair removal, etc. etc. All these painful little things we do to ourselves to make ourselves more attractive. The author just arbitrarily draws her morality line at plastic surgery. Probably because she can't afford to keep up with the other women in New York. She's got ISSUES.

[Phillycat]

136. I think my tattoos would scare the crap out of most guys.

Heh.