how much does the abortion debate matter ?

[JI7]

in terms of Democratic/Republican politics and elections ?

don't most people who vote on this issue vote Democratic if they are pro choice and republican if they are anti choice ?

of course there are a few exceptions at local and state levels.

but in Presidential Politics does it really matter ? aren't the people who vote on this issue already decided ?

[snowbear]

1. It matters in groups and circles...

...But not enough to effect the total outcome..

[JI7]

4. that's what i'm thinking also

it would probably take a Dem or Republican who has a position different from what is traditionally the position of that party candidate for their to make enough difference.

for example if Giuliani were to win the Republican nomination . or some anti choice Dem to win their party nomination. but of course i think that in itself would make them have almost not chance at winning the Primary so it may not even be an issue.

[Hekate]

2. It matters quite a lot, and needs to remain a plank in the Dem platform. It needs to be reframed...

... and our party leadership is trying to do that, but it should never, ever, be dropped as a Democratic platform issue.

Women's lives are at stake.

Hekate

[JI7]

3. i don't think it should ever be dropped as an issue the party supports

and that each candidate supports.

but what i'm trying to get at is mostly Presidential elections. and how much that matters in a debate. my assumption at this point is that those who vote on that issue are already decided.

[Sgent]

6. It matters heavily

to many religious types (Catholics for instance) who would vote D except for the abortion plank.

Not a reason to remove it, but it does cause some significant vote shifting.

[Warren DeMontague]

7. Yeah, and there's a lot of Libertarian Minded folks who would be Republicans if it wasn't for

the fact that Daddy State Control Freaks and Theocratic Fuckin' Loonies run that party.

[snowbear]

8. It won't be dropped.. And thankfully...

..there are still enough Americans around who aren't "ONE ISSUE" voters and who actually select the best candidate.

~~


There will always be "one issue Righties" -->


But there's not enough of them to impact in the final vote count.

[Warren DeMontague]

14. Um, the majority of Americans are Pro-Choice. Overwhelmingly. It's been shown in poll after poll

after poll.

The noise about how this issue "loses us votes" is a bald-faced media lie.

[Warren DeMontague]

5. If you're a woman being told you can't control your own body, it matters. If they outlaw the pill--

as they'd like to--- it will matter. If the Supreme Court is stacked with people who will vote to overturn Roe v. Wade, it's a solid bet that they will also vote for all kinds of other nonsense, like declaring this a "Christian Nation", further invalidation of the Bill of Rights (particularly the first Amendment) tossing gays in prison along with women who get abortions, fornicators, "blasphemers", etc. etc. ... so you bet your bippy it'll matter.

The bottom line is, even if for god knows what reason you can't bring yourself to personally get worked up about the wholesale assault on womens' reproductive self-determination in this country, here's a little news flash: the folks who want to criminalize abortion have no intention of stopping there- they'd like to see us ruled by Christian Right version of the Taliban.

Oh, and not only is it true that an Overwhelming Majority of Americans are Pro-Choice, they have a much stronger MYOGDB streak than the "conventional wisdom" wants to admit. (Which is why Terri Schiavo biting the GOP on the ass was such a surprise to some)

So not only does the issue matter, it's a CLEAR winner for us- as long as we consistently stand up for personal freedom, civil liberties, and socially libertarian values.

[Solo_in_MD]

9. Not much

the party positions are well known, though there are elected officials in each with different views. Except for the ideologues on both sides, its not really a litmus test issue, nor should it be.

[noamnety]

10. It's a litmus test for me

reproductive slavery is a nonstarter here.

kinda like if a candidate said he supported reinstituting medical experiments on blacks, you know? Even if it was to "save lives." It's a pretty damn big litmus test.

[Warren DeMontague]

13. Sorry, the right to choose is a deal breaker for me-- and a lot of others. nt

[Syrinx]

11. Republicans don't really want Roe vs. Wade overturned

It's what they use to get their fundy base energized. That don't give a fuck about those religious zealots. They use the fundy base, so that they can serve their corporate masters.

And to be fair, most of the Democrats in Washington are ruled by corporate masters too. THAT MUST BE STOPPED!

[Hekate]

12. Yet they keep appointing anti-choice Federal and Supreme Court judges

I know that Bush has been jerking his fundy base around, but he's also been seriously eroding the judicial base of Roe and other reproductive-freedom and privacy laws by his appointments.

This is as serious as a heart attack; if you have trouble believing that, get on Planned Parenthood's email list or just visit their site.

Hekate

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Sadly, I think some people won't realize what's going on until they go to fill their birth control

prescription and are led away in Handcuffs by the Ministry of Christian Vice and Virtue.

[Hekate]

16. Refusal to fill prescriptions is now considered an act of conscience in some states

Awhile back someone posted an op-ed by a middle-aged woman working and living in the D.C. area who needed to get non-prescription Plan B after an unplanned night of whoopee with her husband.

To be effective at all, it has to be taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex. Her pharmacist wouldn't sell it; her doctor was unhelpful. She had never had cause to know this about her providers before, and it came as a rude awakening.

In other circumstances, an increasing number of other women have had difficulty getting prescriptions filled for The Pill.

Contraception is legal, yet will be increasingly unavailable if this keeps up. Abortion is legal, yet increasingly unavailable outside major cities, making it effectively impossible for many rural women and girls to obtain.

Wow. Looking at the juxtaposition of those two sentences, makes you wonder what these "moral" people think of women? Mooooo.

Add this -- gods forbid women should have "too many" kids or ever ask for public assistance for them.

:argh:

Hekate

[Warren DeMontague]

18. Contraception and Abortion are two fronts in the same war to these folks.

Many of them have said as much- as soon as abortion is criminalized, they want to go after legal contraception, too.

You would think that, for folks honestly interested in reducing the numbers of abortions, support for safe, legal, and accessible birth control would be an obvious call. Instead, as you mention, you have these Jesus-drunk pharmacists who preach at "whores" while keeping pill prescriptions hostage being held up as heroes of the "pro life" movement.

It's astounding. And these aren't whackjobs on the fringes, these are the folks driving the agenda. I think a lot of Republicans who like to tell themselves their party is about "personal freedom" are going to be in for a shock when they find out which puritan-garbed inquisitors actually run the show.

[Syrinx]

19. I expressed myself very poorly

I meant that the Republican establishment doesn't care about abortion. People like Bush, Rove, Mehlman, etc. To people like that, it's about winning. So they whip up their base using the issue, and very bad people end up getting elected down the line. I really don't think Bush or Cheney really care about fetuses, in particular. But they do love the idea of authoritarianism in general.

I'm still having trouble expressing my exact thoughts on this, but this is closer to what I meant. ;)

[Hekate]

22. You said it very well, and you're absolutely right...

...that what the Repubs love is authority -- the party of small government having devolved into the party of Big Brother.

Hekate

[Bridget Burke]

25. When the daughters of the Republican establishment get into "trouble"...

They make a quick visit to a private clinic. In future, the clinic might be in another state--or even another country.

[Syrinx]

27. I don't have any disagreement with that at all

From what I understand, there is only one abortion clinic in the entire state of Mississippi. And not many more here in Alabama.

[Az]

17. The reason it is such a critical issue

is that the concepts enbodied by it are key to the differences between the various sides in the socio/political debate ongoing in this nation. Its about freedom. Its about morality. Its about gender rights. Its about privacy. Its about everything that really matters.

Progress happens in all societies. But as progress occurs so to does resistance. As more new ideas are embraced and old ideas toppled there comes to be an increasing number of people that cannot acclimate to the new ideas. They instead cling to old positions. Often due to cultural or religious reinforcement.

As progress continues the resistance increases. Until such a time as the identity of those opposed to the progress becomes so threatened that they must fight or be absorbed and have their identity lost within the society.

This is where we are now. Abortion is just a symptom. Drop abortion and homosexuality takes its place. Its progress and not any particular issue that is the problem. The religious right in our nation is fearful that their identity is being obliterated due to social progress. And they are right. Given time social progress eats away at old notions. There are only two options in the long term. Fight or fade away.

So giving up on abortion not only taints our own ideals but it gains us nothing. The fight over abortion is just a stress based symptom of a cultural/religious mindset that is being dismantled by modern sensibilities. Give in on abortion and they will only focus on another social advance that does not fit their world view.

[hfojvt]

21. "Progress happens in all societies"

Do you have a standard definition for 'progress'? New ideas are always good, and old ideas are always bad?

[Az]

23. Progress in this case means

Change brought about by learned understanding. New ideas need not always be good. Old ideas need not always be bad. This is in part what gives Conservatives the willies.

A social change can cause massive ripple effects in a society. Right the wrong of not allowing women to work and you suddenly impact the job market. Progress changes things and not always for the better. Society is a balancing act and conservatives worry that the change of progress will upend that balance.

The thing of it is though that society in general tends to balance itself whenever a new set of criteria are developed. Often times it is balanced on the backs of the more unfortunate. But it does find a balance. This is counter to what the NeoCons believe. They fear that progress and change can destroy society. In its simplest form this is true. The society that once was can be destroyed. But there is always a new society rising from the remains of the previous society.

Progress introduces change into the enviroment without knowing how far reaching its actions will carry. But it is propelled by coming to understand why such positions are right or wrong from a moral stand point. Its focus is not on what is more efficient. Perhaps the most efficient society makes use of slaves. But progress has taught us that slavery is wrong and thus we eschew using slavery even if it would be expedient for the bulk of society.

[hfojvt]

26. I am not sure you can have a "learned understanding" of moral issues

When you say that it is wrong to not allow women to have outside jobs you cannot prove that rigorously. And if it does not change things for the better, it is problematic to call it 'progress'. I think technological change can have far more powerful social impact than some of the more political change you are talking about. The long slow death of the farming culture and the rise of cities would be an example. The entry of mothers into the workforce has been slow too, and still not universal.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

20. Americans are in a large majority pro-choice

60+ percent of Americans consistently agree that the decision to have an abortion should be between "a woman, her doctor, her family, her conscience and her God." Or wording very close to that.

Only 19 percent think abortions should all be made illegal. This number has remained basically unchanged since Rove vs. Wade.

I've always thought that the "abortion issue wars" were just a way for the republicans to rally some of their base to get off the couch and vote. I've also always felt we'd lose more votes if we were to neglect our responsibility to womens right to choose than if we remain true to who and what we represent.

[HuffleClaw]

24. not as much as they'd have us believe?

[eridani]

28. Any bills to further restrict it are now off the table

Hope we can make some headway against other idiotic conservative policies.