George W. Bush and that ol' time religion: fact or fiction?

[theHandpuppet]

As for myself, I haven't decided whether Shrub really believes he's chatting it up with the Lord (in which case he's delusional) or is just another snake oil salesman with a pitch for that ol' time religion, of which a swig or two from the bottle will cure whatever ails ya -- like sanity, for instance.

So what do you think? Does George see himself as the one to fulfill the prophecies in the Book of Revelations, setting the stage for the final showdown at the Armageddon corral? Is he one of the "Left Behind" faithful or will his be the only behind left after he's reduced the rest of the world to smoke and ash? Is his new call for "sacrifice" intended to echo that of Abraham, who was willing to sacrifice his own son on the altar of the Lord? Has George cast himself in the scripted role of Abraham whilst every American's sons and daughters are to play the sacrifice?

Perhaps the notion that George believes he's an agent of the Almighty isn't nearly as important as the fact that he's convinced so many Americans that he's the ONE. And here I thought that was the description of the Antichrist, but what do I know?

What do y'all think?

[malaise]

1. I think George

is certifiably mad.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

2. It's BS. When he was working on his Daddy's campaign, there was a "revelation" that the

largest untapped group of potential voters were the fundies. He has continued pandering to that group..his base, his backwash.

[theHandpuppet]

6. Yeah, I used to think it was just part of a political strategy

Scary thing is, I'm beginning to think at some point he started believing the fundie hype -- ie, that he's the appointed one. It would certainly appeal to his narcissism and meglomania. Being the "Appointed One" would really give him the opportunity to show up his daddy. Jeb may be the favorite son, but Bush is the favored Son, if ya know what I mean. So I think he's just crazy enough to believe it.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

14. Personally I believe he worships a different "higher father". eom

[Hamlette]

23. "different higher father" you mean his mother? n/t

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

29. That's funny but no, I wasn't referred to Mrs. Beautiful Mind. nt

[madokie]

3. crazy as a loon, mad as a hatter

sucking on cars tailpipes lead poisoned nuts

[baldguy]

4. Bush is just as much a Christian

as his Saudi partners are.

[trotsky]

5. Unless you can read minds...

then when Bush says he is a Christian, he is.

None of this implicit "only GOOD people are Christians" religious bigotry.

[theHandpuppet]

7. I didn't ask whether only good people are Christians

I asked whether or not George truly believes he's an agent of the Lord or he's simply using the script to his advantage. He can be a bad person and still be a Christian, or he can be a person who simply uses the mantle of religion to further his own agenda. I haven't decided which is the case.

[trotsky]

15. But that's the logic being used.

Maybe not by you, but by plenty of people - including DUers. But then, why would you even be asking the question in the first place if there wasn't a bit of that logic going on?

[RaleighNCDUer]

16. That's not what I'm seeing here -

the question is, is he delusional and a true believer, or is he cynically conning people?

I personally don't believe he is bright enough to pull such a long con - I think he is a true believer, and believes in his chosen destiny, and believes he is in contact with god, and that scares the shit out of me.

ON EDIT: That's not to say that if he is not delusional, if he is just conning his base, that he is not a christian. I also reject the 'real christian' dichotomy promoted by christians who are ashamed of him.

[trotsky]

19. You don't see posts 2, 4, 8, 12, or 18?

It comes up on DU quite a bit. Some Christians have a big problem with admitting Bush (or anyone else they don't like) might just be a Christian.

[theHandpuppet]

22. Thanks!

I thought the question was quite clear and also a legitimate one to ask.

[theHandpuppet]

20. Who's reading whose mind now?

Maybe you ought to check your own extrapolations at the door, hmmm?

[trotsky]

24. I'm just reading the posts.

Sorry to have pooped on your thread of righteousness.

[theHandpuppet]

26. If you have objection to posts #2, 4, 8, 12 or 18, as you state....

... then respond to them as eloquently as you have responded to me.

I posed a question about whether George's religious posturing might be borne from true belief or from political expediency. You've done nothing but insult me personally since then for even posing the question. I suspect I'm not the one wielding the sword of righteousness here, but it's obvious you have no real interest in the point of the OP.

Have a nice day!

[trotsky]

27. You, too, have a passive-aggressive... I mean.. nice day.

I do not get the impression that you are interested in hearing from those who have quite a different perspective, sadly.

[theHandpuppet]

31. Sure, okay

Your first response to this thread was a terse comment about religious bigotry. That was my first clue you weren't really interested in a discourse of the topic. You didn't offer a perspective to begin with. But thanks, anyway. Sheesh.

[Philosoraptor]

8. Why would this be true among every other lie?

I've never bought into it for a minute.

[theHandpuppet]

9. I don't know, Philosoraptor

I'm inclined to think that GWB didn't start out as one of the "true believers", but I also think he's so dysfunctional that the notion of being the Lord's agent who will set the stage for the end times would appeal to his vanity and meglomaniacal personality. I suspect it wouldn't take a lot of convincing from those who know him quite well that Mad George could be easily manipulated into assuming a role which would further their own agendas.

[GeorgeGist]

10. It's a fact ...

that ol' time religion is fiction. Welcome to Fantasy Land.

[Prophet 451]

11. He's a believer

But we need to be specific, he's not a believer in mainstream Christianity or even that old-fashioned fundementalism that emphasised social justice (yes, fundementalism was once a force against poverty and for social justice, read teh history). He's a disciple of that very extreme form of fundementalism that exists because of and in symbiosis with, extreme-right politics.

I have a friend (a former priest as it happens) who tells me that he spent much of his time trying to convince people that Christianity was something other than a big list of "thou shalt not". For mainstream Christianity, that might be true. Mainstream Christians are often wonderful people (as a Luciferian, my problem is with their god, not them) but W's brand of fundementalism really is just a big list of "thou shalt not" and right at the top of the list is "thou shalt not disagree with a Republican". It's a weirdly mutated version of Christianity where Jesus's words of compassion, peace and tolerance count for less than the Leviticus admonations to stone people; where church-state seperation (also endorsed by Jesus) is "a myth" and where Bibles cost whatever the market will bear. All Christians believe in a final judgement of some sort (even I believe in that) but what makes W's brand of fundementalism different is that they seem to be actually looking forward to armageddon and, in many cases, actively trying to bring it about.

I've been trying to figure out what to call them for a while: "batshit insane fanatics" is rather a mouthful; "Christopublicans" brings the name of Jesus (who I think was a wonderful teacher even if not divine) into disrepute and calling them "Christians" is just insulting to the decent Christians. Any ideas?

[theHandpuppet]

13. Good question

I agree with, "I've been trying to figure out what to call them for a while: "batshit insane fanatics" is rather a mouthful; "Christopublicans" brings the name of Jesus (who I think was a wonderful teacher even if not divine) into disrepute and calling them "Christians" is just insulting to the decent Christians."

Yep, there's a cult all its own here and it's hard to define without somehow insulting a lot of decent folk. There must be an apt description out there somewhere.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

12. My vote: Snake Oil Salesman. He's just like Rush, Coulter and all the rest of the gang of vampires.

They are happy to get the support of fundie zombies, but I doubt if you could find any of them in a church ever.

It's strictly a cynical ploy, which largely works because of the gullibility of the target audience to such Elmer Gantry antics.

[seemslikeadream]

17. A Demonologist Looks Into The Heart Of The Whitehouse

http://www.raidersnewsnetwork.com/full.php?news=1591

Behind The Veil In Washington DC -- The Rise Of Angelic Rule
Added: Dec 29th, 2006 7:09 AM

A Demonologist Looks Into The Heart Of The Whitehouse

© 2006 Thomas Horn
RaidersNewsNetwork.com

Part 1

On January 20, 2001, President George W. Bush during his inaugural address twice referred to an angel that "rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm." His reference was credited to Virginia statesman John Page who wrote to Thomas Jefferson after the Declaration of Independence was signed, saying, ``We know the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong. Do you not think an angel rides in the whirlwind and directs this storm?''

Five weeks later, on Wednesday, February 28, Congressman Major R. Owens of New York stood before the House of Representatives and prayed to the "Angel in the Whirlwind." He asked the spiritual force to guide the future and fate of the United States (1).

At the beginning of his second term, when Bush was being sworn in to office, he offered equally cryptic commentary, saying, "For a half century, America defended our own freedom by standing watch on distant borders. After the shipwreck of communism came years of relative quiet, years of repose, years of sabbatical - and then there came a day of fire...."

Bush followed that statement, saying, "By our efforts, we have lit a fire as well - a fire in the minds of men. It warms those who feel its power, it burns those who fight its progress, and one day this untamed fire of freedom will reach the darkest corners of our world."

The phrase, "a fire in the minds of men," is from Fyodor Dostoyevsky’s nineteenth century book, The Possessed (The Devils) a novel set in pre-revolutionary Russia where civil resistance is seen championed by nihilist Sergei Nechaev who tries to ignite a revolution of such destructive power that society will be completely destroyed. The fact that a United States president would quote this phrase in an official speech of record was astonishing to many analysts, given that The Possessed is about violent government crackdown on dissent that sparks civil unrest and revolution marked by public violence (2).

[left is right]

18. Back during the 00 campaign

Bush was asked who his favorite philosopher was and he answered Jesus Christ when given the opportunity to explain he said, "if you don't know, I can't explain it to you." Any true believer would have said, "trusting in Him has changed my life, making me a better person, husband, citizen." Or similar words. Believers are exhorted by St. Paul to defend their faith in a winsome manner, which basically means that they are to defend their faith in such a way that others might say, I want what that person has. This is definitely not beating people over the head with a Christ cudgel. The very fact that he couldn't explain himself means that he wasn't a true believer.
Paul also was very big on fruit inspection, by their fruit you shall know them. And the fruit was kindness, mercy, humility and many other qualities. Bush fails again.
Now, for non-believers such as Gandhi who proclaimed admiration for the man, Jesus, cites the Golden Rule, turning the other cheek or other aspects from the Sermon on the Mount. And if a nonbeliever cites Jesus, they can always explain why. Once again, Bush couldn't do even this. The conclusion has to be that he only thought that calling on Jesus was the right thing to do without knowing why it was.

Having typed all of this, I hold to the believe that if there wasn't a God, schizophrenics and sociopaths would be forced to invent Him to justify their actions. So, I do think in some sort of sick fashion, Bush thinks he is God's man of the hour. he is delusional

[dave_p]

28. A blank faith

... when given the opportunity to explain he said, "if you don't know, I can't explain it to you."

Isn't that always the fundie way? Notice how it's all about placing yourself in the hands of their abstract Jesus for your personal salvation, raher than actually implementing any of Christ's reported recommendations for living.

It's about submission and acceptance of discipline, not about any message. The fundies are likelier to find their preferred "message" in the Christ-free Old Testament rather than the New preferred by more progressively-minded Christians.

So it's submit first, and do it for yourself, not for humanity. And do it through us, then we'll maybe reveal you some message. Nice work if you can get it. Bush can believe, because his Christ comes content-free. Just insert your politics here.

It's the perfect mirror of jihadism, religion in the service of a reactionary political fringe that can only give its empty vision the illusion of substance by hitching it to faith and rejection of free will. Illusion is whaat counts, substance is just whatever they fill in the blanks with.

So he's a believer. In whatever he & his nutty pals believe in. He can't explain it because he's decided he's one of The Chosen, so he must be right. It's not our place to question, just to submit. To whatever it is.

[Joe Bacon]

21. Bush's god is Ayn Rand.

He bullshits about Jesus, but he follows Ayn as in Mine Rand and her pal Milton Friedman.

[dogday]

25. When George lost his first election in Texas, he

realized it was because he was not one of the "Good Ole Boys" and joined the club, remade himself into a cowboy, with a ranch, and he won his next election.... I would say his prior actions indicate that he could, and has molded himself to whatever the situation calls for....

Does anyone really know the real George Bush?

[Prophet 451]

30. Does a real George Bush exist?

I've said similar things about Tony Blair but when one's political stances can be essentially summed up as "whatever seems like a good idea at the time", you don't, in any real sense, have a political stance.

Bush and, to a lesser extent, Blair are both cyphers. They have no political views or ideas of their own, simply those they're inherated from their family (Bush) or whatever the particular group they're speaking to wants to hear (Blair).