If someone told you it was OK by them if you killed a bunch of people, would you?

[The Straight Story]

If bush called you up, or Ford, and told you 'ya know, it is ok by me if you wipe out a few hundred thousand people' - would you do it? And if you did - would you blame someone else for giving you the OK?

Who would be responsible - you, or those who told you it was OK? Or would it come down to those who pulled the trigger day after day? Whom would you blame?

"Some dude in the USA told me he would still be my friend if I killed you all" and then you go and kill them. Who do you blame? The idiot who went out and killed others, or the person who told em it was ok???

In the end, some blame Ford for East Timor (et al). But that in NO WAY erases the actions of those who carried out the actions. People have choices. And those choosing to use their power to kill others are responsible in the end, not those who gave it their blessing.

Who do we blame in the end - the enabler, or the person who does the deed?

Or do we suppose that we are above such things, and only the savages would behave as we allowed them to (and hence, we blame our leaders and not theirs?)

Someone was behind those guns, those crimes in east Timor. Are they less than us that we blame only ourselves because they were not accountable for their actions as fellow humans?? Do we think so little of them??

[illinoisprogressive]

1. If I was told it would be okay to kill anyone

I wouldn't take it. I don't like violence or death or abuse. I could never live with myself if I did. I think most decent people would not take it.

[madokie]

2. the crime would be in the decider

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

3. Does that include our military?

Is a pilot who bombs a village culpable? Or, is he "just following orders"? How about the artilleryman who is shooting at coordinates? Are they any less guilty than the guys who shot up Haditha?

[The Straight Story]

4. The question is - what would YOU do in that situation?

Would you bomb or walk away?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

5. I did walk away.

In 1965, I had a couple of months to go on my enlistment in the marines. They asked me to extend my enlistment to go to Vietnam. I refused. Some of my comrades weren't so lucky. They stopped "asking" a few months after I got out.

In fact, I was downright insulted that they wanted me to be a murderer for LBJ and told them so. 30 days of mess duty was my reward for youthful indiscretion.

[The Straight Story]

9. Awesome!

Proof indeed that we each can make an impact on this world, and WE can stop the killing.

Thank you for your service and your response. You did the right thing. I can only wish more in this world of ours would do the same and just say 'NO!'.

You are living proof that each person has a choice to make - some make the wrong one, and some (like you) make the right one.

You are indeed, a true hero in my book.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

12. Thanks. But, I'm no hero.

I would like to say, with certainty, that I would have refused to go if ordered. But, facing a stint in a marine brig and the knuckledragging guards may well have quelled my idealism.

The "heroes" were the guys who went to prison rather than kill. The "draft" dodgers and resistors.

[havocmom]

6. No. What another says is not what defines my values.

Permission, legal or not, is not the same as just cause.

Now, comparing it to warfare is just not logical. If a ruler SENDS people into a situation where they are required to kill or be killed, it is the ruler's fault. There are, of course case by case situations where people in combat zones kill without due cause - the killing of innocent non-combatants. In that case, both the one who pulled the trigger AND the leader who arranged (started the fucking war in the first place) for the likelihood of such situations are to blame.

[Democrats_win]

7. Ford was an accessory to those murders--knew before, provided assistance.

[leftofthedial]

8. Don Corleone sanctions hits

he doesn't pull the trigger

does this make him innocent?


we blame those who kill

AND we blame those who sanction the killing

[The Straight Story]

11. Or is it that we hide behind others who sanction things?

because we don't want to take responsibility for our own actions (and our own freedoms)?

[leftofthedial]

14. I don't think the hit man hides behind the sanction

It certianly does not give them cover in my mind.

[uppityperson]

10. Walk away. BUT

there have been a few people that I would not have minded being dead, over human history. If I had a chance to kill them before they did whatever, and IF I knew that it would change things for the better, would I have? Quite possibly though it would have weighed very hard on my mind and psyche forever.

For what you speak of? No. I would not do it. Who to blame? It depends on intentions. As a car killing can be manslaughter or murder, it depends on intention. Did the perpetrator know what they were doing and still do it? Guilty. Did they know they were following instructions of people not to be trusted? As in Dr.Strangelove, sometimes you have to believe the orders you follow are right, but you still are to blame. It is not an easy or simplistic thing, no easy simplistic answer.

[H2O Man]

13. Perhaps another way

of asking the same general question would be: if another person told you it was your DUTY to kill another person or persons, is there a circumstance when you would accept their attempt to decide that for you? If Hitler said to kill a Jew or Gypsy, would you have? If the President of the United States said you were obligated by patriotic duty to kill a person from another country, would you? If the governor of your state declared war on the people of the next state, would you feel obligated to carry a gun? If the mayor of your town insisted that in the name of your community's flag, you need to kill people from the next community, would you consider it, even for a minute? Or would you recognize that he was as insane as Charlie Manson? The questions of individual duty and obligation are sometimes best illustrated by breaking them down the individual level.

[The Straight Story]

15. I'd tell em all to go to hell

And get out there themselves if they believed in such things :)