Something that embarrases DU: including a Che Guevera avatar in the avatar listings

[brentspeak]

WHY is an avatar of Che Guevera, a known mass murderer, a known detainer of political prisoners, as well as a de facto enemy of own JFK, among the avatar listings that DUers can choose from? Even if not everyone on DU is an actual Democrat, there's at least one thing that we are all supposed to be: followers and believers of democracy.

A slimeball like Che Guevera had as much in common with democratic principles as did other murderers, from both the right and left: Batista, Stalin, Pinochet, Lenin, Trotsky, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Gen.Franco, Mao, etc.

I know I'm not the only one aggravated by Guevera's demonic mug showing up every now and then on someone's avatar.

[Jed Dilligan]

1. And you're so proud

of your slave-driver?

It's all about context. Would you prefer if Bautista had stayed?

[noamnety]

10. Thank you!

People with a Jefferson avatar have lost their right to complain about others' offensive choices, imho.

He was a rapist and he owned slaves. If a person can't see why that choice would be offensive to women - particularly the rape survivors here on DU - and why it would be offensive to People of Color, they need to spend some time reflecting on how exactly that's different than, say, wearing a shirt with the confederate flag on it to a civil rights march.

[brentspeak]

14. Who did Jefferson rape?

People who don't know what they're talking about have no right to complain about my thread.

[noamnety]

20. Sally Hemings.

He was a racist sexist imperialist who treated people as subhuman, as property, and he helped legislate rights for only rich white male land-owners. He also helped established the Manifest Destiny doctrine, based on the idea that rich white male land-owners had god-given rights to all the natural resources and land on the planet.

That doesn't make him a hero of the people, it makes him a self-serving bastard.

[brentspeak]

25. Thank you for displaying your total ignorance on the matter of Thomas Jefferson

as well as your shrill view of American history. At the risk of putting pearls before swine, here's some facts for you:

1) No one knows precisely who fathered Sally Heming's illegitimate half-white/half-black child. All DNA evidence tells us is that a male in the Jefferson family was the father. It could have been Thomas Jefferson...or any one of his eight brothers, particularly Randolph Jefferson, who was known to spend a lot of time hanging out socially with the Monticello slaves.

2) Jefferson, the "racist sexist imperialist who treated people as subhuman", who "..helped legislate rights for only white male land-owners", abolished the overseas slave trade during his second term as President. He also freed as many of slaves as his enormous debt would allow. His entire adult life, he spoke out against slavery, calling it "immoral" and calling for its total abolishment. He did have some racist views, but they didn't affect his actions: by all accounts, treated his slaves well, and even provided some with education. Hardly the mark of someone who treats people as "subhuman".

3) "He also helped established the Manifest Destiny doctrine, based on the idea that rich white male land-owners had god-given rights to all the natural resources and land on the planet."

Chuckle.

Jefferson helped negotiate the Lousiana Purchase. He did so because a) he didn't want the United States to lose access to the Mississippi River, since the French would have control over the area; and b) he didn't want the United States to be potentially threatened by the nation of France residing within the U.S' own geography.

That's kind of different than your theory of Jefferson believing in "the idea that rich white male land-owners had god-given rights to all the natural resources and land on the planet," isn't it?

[jwirr]

28. Untrue, DNA tests were done and they proved that it was Thomas

Jefferson who fathered at least one of her children. The descendants of the other children were not tested because no one is sure where they are at.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

29. Sure.

And his raping of his slaves kind of goes against his ideas about "all men being created equal." So there you have it.

[wicket]

12. Thank-you!

Beat me to it.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

13. 2 wrongs STILL don't make a right

We should not honor or celebrate anyone who was personally responsible for so much brutality.

As far as Jefferson ... he's OUR history right AND wrong and earned our acknowledgement of both.

[JackRiddler]

15. Che is just as much "our" history

The US made him as much as he made himself.

[brentspeak]

16. How did the U.S. make Che Guevera??????

[billbuckhead]

There are no mass murderers from the "left"

[verse18]

2. Yet you are the only person to start a thread about it.

"I know I'm not the only one aggravated by Guevera's demonic mug showing up every now and then on someone's avatar."

Please don't speak for other DUers.

[brentspeak]

8. I'm the only one ever to start a thread about it?

I recall seeing at least one thread on the topic a while back.

[Joe Chi Minh]

19. Wow! so many... Did you post it?

[LoZoccolo]

17. Probably because a lot of people object but don't have time for the ensuing Che-based shreik-fest.

n/t

[EvolveOrConvolve]

23. Bingo!

[LoZoccolo]

24. I noticed that on some controversial issues, threads tend to attract mostly agreeable responses...

...no matter which side the original poster takes. From that I conjectured that a lot of people don't even bother arguing with other people on some things.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

27. Che-based shreik-fest?

I prefer to think of them as Che-k & Bakes.

[sammythecat]

26. It's okay.

He's only stating what must certainly be a fact, and he's not speaking in anyone else's name.

I'm glad this thread was started. I knew Jefferson wasn't the Messiah, but he was one of my political heroes. Now, after reading some posts here I guess I might have to do some rethinking.

Please don't take this as a flame. It's not. Just a friendly disagreement. We're both DUers, so I'm sure we have way, way, more thoughts in common than not. :)

[Puregonzo1188]

3. Why I am not fan of Che myself, for all the reasons you mentioned,

I for one do not feel its my place nor anyone's to dictate what kind of avatar others should have. Its their choice.

[Puregonzo1188]

4. Sorry, double post

[RedStateShame]

11. Welcome to DU, Puregonzo1188!

[bahrbearian]

21. Check his profile , he should welcome you.

[Lars39]

5. Take it up with Skinner.

[Botany]

6. Che's image has taken on a life of it's own.

He is "hip & cool."

You are right he was not a "nice man" but some of our own refuse to learn from
history.

I remember some women @ the Columbus, OH Community Fest sitting in front of a
communist workers both telling people about Mao's good works and how the media
lies about Pol Pot's actions.

[Hippo_Tron]

7. Che's a cultural symbol last time I checked, not really exclusive to the left

I've seen conservatives wear Che t-shirts because they think it's cool or because they're stupid and don't know who he was.

[libodem]

9. Your list should include ol' bushie too

He should be heralded as a mass murderer, too. (I do see your point in the post.) Was the guy a leftist? I don't know anything about him, really. Beg your pardon.

[mike_c]

18. oh for pete's sake....

Che was much more than the cardboard figure you're trying to create from him. That's pretty pathetic. You lose some investments that were paying off nicely under Baptista, or something?

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1602/16020590.htm

[Joe Chi Minh]

22. It seems even some DUers, whatever their bona fides might be,

don't know that thousands of children are dying of starvation, and do die each day, because of the fathomless greed of our poster's "good guys" of Western capitalism, whose ministrations Guevara and Mao were trying to thwart. The same types who thought it served their political and financial interests better to allow Pol Pot to die in his bed. Talk about moral bankruptcy!

They and Karl Marx were better men than you'll ever be, or most of us, I dare say. How many families did your heroes house, feed and clothe? How many are doing it now???!!!!!

[Shakespeare]

30. One person's mass murderer is another person's freedom fighter.

And you're incredibly naive if you think that debate will ever be settled here. Yes, there's a Che avatar. Don't like it? Don't use it.

[Shakespeare]

31. Oh, yeah....one more thing:

Just because you don't like it, in no way means it "embarrasses DU."

[Fenris]

32. Locking.

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