In Defense and Support of Cindy... and all the other "crackpots"

[walldude]

Sad that this needs to be done on DU. But this thread is for all the boat rockers,
the crackpots, the lunatics, the "traitors", the "treasonous" and the people making
"asinine spectacles" of themselves. Many throughout history have been called these names
and worse. Cindy should be proud that she keeps company with the likes of Einstein,
Newton, Socrates, Abbie Hoffman and John Lennon.


While we know what the right thinks of Cindy I find it interesting that some people
on the left think she is all of the things I named above and a few more. Today she was
berated on DU for interrupting the Democratic press conference and demanding that no more
children die for a lie. Apparently some DU'ers think she should have done what they so
soundly beat up on Bush for. She should have waited. Yes waited. And why not? Whats a
few more days/weeks/months of getting shot at? Whats a few more nights of parents who
can't sleep from worry that their child might return home in a body bag? Hell let's
go shopping while we wait!

Well everyone has an opinion. I'm sure mine will drop like a stone the minute it's posted
but I really don't give a shit. Political expedience may be a good reason for some of
you, hell some of you seem to be worried that crazy old Cindy might embarass you.
Some of you think she's drawing attention away from the Democrats who are actually
trying to do what they were handed power for. Some of you even think that Cindy has been
"corrupted" by the far left.( A clue for you, if you post on DU you are considered part of the
far left. Ask any conservative.) Well as wrong as it may seem to me
you are welcome to your opinion. But the fact is that every day that we are in Iraq people
die needlessly. Every day Cindy waits another mothers son could be lost. Sure it's
probably a little nuts to spend a few days in jail then go right back out and do something
that could get you busted again. Wish I was that crazy. I wish we all were. Actally what
I really wish for is for Cindy to remain safe, to remain true and to keep doing what I would if
I were in her shoes. Keep rocking the boat, keep pushing, keep fighting the good fight, you
speak for many of us who aren't able to get out there and speak for ourselves.


A note: I know Cindy checks out DU sometimes, I also know she has people who pass things on
to her. Please, if you are against what Cindy is doing make your own thread, or reply in one
of the other threads that already exist. I would like her to see this without having to deal
with the few people who think she's everything I have listed at the top of the page. Your
opinions are already well known.


I have stood at the side of the hole in the ground. I have listened while Taps was played,
and tears fell. I took the folded flag from soldier who offered it to me. I have done this 3 times.
I know how Cindy feels. I wonder how many who have called her names can say the same....

Fight The Good Fight
-Triumph
"...The good bok says it's better to give than to recieve
I do my best to do my part
Nothing in my pocket I got nothing up my sleeve
I keep my magic in my heart

Keep up your spirit, Keep up your faith
Baby, I am counting on you
You know what you've got to do

Fight the good fight every moment
every minute every day
Fight the good fight every moment
it's your boat away...

[Lars39]

1. Can you space some paragraphs for my ol' eyes?

:hi:

[walldude]

4. Sure... you know about ctrl+mouse wheel right?

If you hold the control button and use the mouse wheel it will enlarge or shrink the text. My wife has bad eyes as well she uses it all the time.

[Lars39]

6. Thanks,walldude!

I need all the computer savvy I can get. :D

[Philosoraptor]

2. krackpot kick

[cynatnite]

3. I think Cindy is smart and has thick enough skin to know...

not everyone agrees with her on everything she thinks. I have no idea what it's like to lose a son and I hope I never do. Maybe it's presumptuous on my part, but I think she values differing opinions whether it's with her, her tactics or whatever the case may be.

I support anyone's right to protest how they see fit even if I disagree with that protest. In that regard, I do support her even though there are some things I don't agree on, but that's just how it is in this world we live in.

[walldude]

5. I agree with differing opinions as I stated, however

I think DU would be better served to stop calling her crackpot, and asinine spectacle... that's not a difference of opinion it's just plain mean.

[Alamom]

Yes, it is mean & #5.n/t

[cynatnite]

9. I really don't care...

who calls her names or what names they call her. Hell, I've been called names here at DU and I've seen it happen with DUer's that's been here a hell of a lot longer than me.

This is a big community with diverse people so don't expect everyone to play nice. Some here think there is too much of a tendency to turn Cindy Sheehan into a saint when she's really no better than the rest of us and some believe that no harsh would should ever be spoken of her at all.

Name-calling, abrasive attitudes and harsh comments will keep on no matter what. The best thing we can do, IMO, is to remind everyone to be civil to one another.

[walldude]

17. I'm not really sure why you are picking a fight here

yes many people don't play nice. Yes Cindy has thick skin, I am certainly not turning her into a Saint, but since name calling and abrasive attitudes will keep on no matter what then what exactly is wrong with me posting a thread saying I disagree with those attitudes and showing support for someone I think needs it? And if you really "don't care" then why did you post?

[cynatnite]

19. I didn't realize I was picking a fight...

and there is nothing wrong with your thread, IMO. Just like anyone else here I'm expressing an opinion. Not sure why you have a problem with that.

[walldude]

24. Sorry.. I'm a little riled up here, I should probably take a break

Sometimes I do exactly what I ask others not to and thats put people into little groups. Pro and Con. Sorry but that :toast:

[cynatnite]

37. No prob

:hi: :patriot:

I think this is a tender subject for a lot of people and I can certainly understand that. Don't worry about it.

:toast:

[cali]

14. Who on DU has called her a crackpot or said she's

created an asinine spectacle? I haven't seen any of those posts. And I sure the fuck didn't say anything remotely like that in the thread I started. I always find people making shit up, disturbing. And you appear to be doing just that.

[walldude]

16. Check my other response to you below

the thread is linked there... if the posts haven't been deleted. This thread was in response to those posts, I'm sorry if your respectful disagreement got caught up in it. It's not respectful disagreement I am taking issue with, it's the totally non-respectful disagreement I am taking issue with. Cheers :toast:

[EFerrari]

29. Well, let's see. The night Cindy was arrested for wearing a t-shirt

DU was rife with "oh,no, there she goes again emabarrassing US" threads.

I haven't seen any of today's counter progressive hangwringings because I'm working on three events here in town this week or, alternately, because I value my time.

Cindy, when the dogs are barking, you know you're winning. You go.

[shance]

7. We need to join her on the streets and in the Congressional halls.

n/t

[judaspriestess]

8. Ms. Sheehan is doing what SHE feels is the right thing for HER

to do. This is the way she is coping with grieving her son. I respect that. If she wants to drive up and down Pennsylvania Ave. naked on a Harley shouting with a bullhorn, so be it.


I mean what is the proper fucking way to protest? Call set up an appt? Sir, call from Cindy Sheehan, she wants to set up a time so she can protest, is that ok with you?

No one is going to give her the time so she has to take the time. God Bless her and my condolences for her loss. I wish more people were doing what she does.

[cali]

10. As this is obviously directed, at least in part, at me

let me state that I said nothing about Cindy Sheehan being traitorous or crazy or anything else. I wrote a respectful post, expressing gratitude towards her and disagreeing with the tactics and rhetoric she's currently employing. But hey, you want to make shit up, that's your right.

[walldude]

15. Um.. excuse me but I made up nothing

every name I used and everything I said has been posted on DU today or on other days, as a matter of fact if they haven't been deleted you can see her be called "crackpot" "crazy" and "asinine spectacle" in this one thread alone.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3032647

Whatever remarks you may have personally made are irrelevant to me, however don't sit there and attempt to call me a liar just because you may disagree with what I said.

[cali]

31. of course you made up stuff. There was ONE

post saying this:

She's beginning to come off like a crackpot

I'm sorry to see it, but that's not what you represented in your OP. You're claim is baloney. In fact, on DU, it's fucking heresy to not bow down to any given DU idol. As my thread, respectful as it was, so sadly and clearly demonstrated.

[walldude]

41. Well the others were apparently deleted then.

My claim was not "baloney" sorry you disagree. Apparently plenty of DU'ers don't. And I bow down to no one. Sorry you consider my giving support to a woman who lost a child bowing down. Maybe you'll understand better when you have some of these under your belt:

[bananas]

44. Now you're lying

Here's "asinine spectacle". This must be one of the "nice" posts because it hasn't been deleted yet:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3032647&mesg_id=3033196

DinoBoy (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-03-07 01:01 PM
Response to Reply #49
60. You know she could just ask to speak with Pelosi
Edited on Wed Jan-03-07 01:03 PM by DinoBoy
I bet she'd agree to meet with Sheehan, instead of Sheehan needing to make an asinine spectacle out of herself.... Doesn't she understand we won? She needn't aim the weapons at her allies

[cali]

46. No, I'm not lying. I didn't see that post and my point still holds

There are very, very few comments about Sheehan of the kind the OP was trying to make readers believe there are a plethora of. That's called misrepresentation. And you all know that there are very few posts of that kind about her.

[bananas]

52. Bullshit - people even compare her to Fred Phelps

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3039529&mesg_id=3039548

[walldude]

54. It is not misrepresentation

maybe because you are taking the opposing point of view you don't see it. A plethora is a relative term, I saw three of these in one thread and it pissed me off. Some see my point of view and some see yours, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, as usual. However that doesn't take away my right to post the truth as I see it. It also doesn't take away the fact that Bush is planning a "surge" in troops. If the Dems allow this, and by the way I pray to god they follow Feingolds lead instead, but if the Dems release funds for this "surge" then everything Cindy did today was righteous. We'll know in a few days.

[bananas]

55. Now they're calling her "the Bev Harris of the anti-war movement"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3034942

LoZoccolo (1000+ posts) Wed Jan-03-07 04:14 PM
Original message
Cindy Sheehan is the Bev Harris of the anti-war movement.
Edited on Wed Jan-03-07 04:14 PM by LoZoccolo
Attention-seeking stunts for $$$$.

If you cared for her grief, you'd encourage her to go to a doctor for some SSRIs and talk therapy, rather than egging her on.

[walldude]

58. Thanks for the help Bananas, it's hard to keep up with

all this. Attention seeking stunts for money. Somehow I imagine she would give all the money in the world to be able to spend one more day with her child...

on edit: I wonder how many posts like this it takes for someone to think it's too many.

[cali]

61. Yeah, that thread is revolting

but it hadn't appeared at the time the OP wrote this thread. Nevertheless, it's clear now that the OP does have a point, and there are some people who aren't engaging in reasonable criticism of Sheehan, but slamming her in ugly ways.

[walldude]

64. Thank you Cali.. that means alot to me.. and to Cindy. n/t

[Reterr]

11. k and r

:toast:

[dogday]

12. When one is driven by an event that makes

no sense, and has drastically changed the way you look at the world, they must act upon it, and so it is with Cindy... My Son was in Iraq for a year, and I am one of the lucky Moms. Had it not been that way, I am sure that with all my heart, might and soul, I would be out there with Cindy kicking ass and taking names. I hope she will continue her fight until she reaches her goal of no more war...

[nam78_two]

13. K&R.nt

[Mizmoon]

18. ?

"Cindy should be proud that she keeps company with the likes of Einstein,
Newton, Socrates, Abbie Hoffman and John Lennon."

:eyes:

[walldude]

22. All people who were called crackpots.

Thanks for respecting my wishes that this remain a support thread. What? Not enough anti-Cindy threads to suit your taste?

[femrap]

66. Thanks, Walldude. Great OP.

Cindy is a true heroine. What she does takes lots of courage. I read an interview with her the other day and she says she feels Casey working through her. She no longer requires much sleep.

This country was built on DISSENT. And now we have supposedly Dems here on DU (or are they paid staff of a right-wing organization?) wanting this Dissent to stop. So more can die for the lie?

As the saying goes, 'well-behave women rarely make history.'

Again, thx Walldude.

[William769]

20. And don't forget Nader!

[EFerrari]

23. Nader lost a son in Iraq? In this national atrocity?

Please.

[walldude]

25. I think he meant Nader was called a crackpot... n/t

[EFerrari]

28. Oops.

[walldude]

73. Geeze.. forget the oops, that poster compared Cindy to Fred Phelps

in another thread.

[EFerrari]

77. Now, that is funny.

lol

[xchrom]

21. woo-hoo!!! kickaroo!

[Seeking Serenity]

26. Face it ...

the problem some people have with Cindy today is that she protested and broke up a Democratic presser. Some people are bound to see that as an example of Democrats eating their own.

Or, as we might say down here, that she's "stopped preachin' and done gone to meddlin'."

As one poster in another thread has posited, some people are more loyal to the Democratic Party than to democratic values.

[EFerrari]

27. Crackpot reporting for duty.

I will be among the other crackpots lobbying Pelosi this week for this so richly deserved impeachment and also on the Beach to Impeach on Saturday.

You know, things don't get done by themselves.

Thanks, walldude.

:loveya:

[walldude]

30. No, thank you.... Go Get Em!

I wish I could do more, with 3 young kids and a disabled wife my time is limited. It's folks like you who carry my flag. When you are there on the beach you represent thousands of others and we all appreciate it..

[EFerrari]

33. We all have limits in our family and other obligations.

But, if we do what we can do, it will be enough, I know it.

:toast:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

32. Look,

Cindy should be proud that she keeps company with the likes of Einstein,
Newton, Socrates, Abbie Hoffman and John Lennon.


First of all, I'm not exactly sure Abbie Hoffman, as much as I love him, belongs in the same league as Einstein. Just a thought.

[EFerrari]

34. So, what's your deal with Einstein?

:)

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

35. Heh heh.

Einstein: Made one of the greatest contributions to our understanding of the universe.
Hoffman: Tried to levatate the Pentagon with mental hippie power.

Both worthy goals, but let's be reasonable.

[EFerrari]

38. Can you imagine the difference in the world if we worked Abby's

project and not Al's?

Simply at the level of cognition, at the level of goals in progress, this joint would be better off.

But I cop to not being reasonable.

:)

[walldude]

43. While I agree that Abbie might have been a few

cards short of a deck I was just using him as an example of well known crackpots. I tried to get some anti-war crackpots in there and he was the first person who came to mind after John. He may have been a little nuts but he sure knew how to mobolize and inspire people.

[Webster Green]

45. I was part of the crowd trying to lift the building...(Oct. 1967)

...and I support Cindy's WAKE THE FUCK UP!! call today.

Once a crackpot, always a crackpot, I guess!

[EFerrari]

50. Crackpots untie -- and thank you for your effort.

lol

:toast:

[Jacobin]

36. Count me in on the crackpot parade

pressure pressure pressure, on the republicans, democrats, all of them, to get the fork out of iraq and give it back to the iraqis

[KG]

39. Sheehan is holding dem party's feet to the fire concerning the occupation

good for her.

guess it raises a dilemma for some DUer's. are you anti-war or pro-dem party?

[Sonicmedusa]

40. I'm With Ya, Walldude

Let's not let them forget for a moment what put them in those seats.

[JohnyCanuck]

42. Maybe this is what Cindy sees going down

and what she was reacting to. Go Cindy!!!!!

Let's Do It Again!
Doubling Down on the Imperial Mission in 2007
By Tom Engelhardt

SNIP

Put another way, as long as Iraq remains a classic quagmire for the Army and Marines, any plan to expand the U.S. military in order to make it easier to fight such wars in the future, threatens to become a classic financial quagmire as well. In other words, Iraq and military expansion don't fit together well at all. And yet, looking at the state of our military in Iraq in a certain light, expansion seems so… well, logical.

After all, the American military, now at just over 500,000 troops, stood, at the time of the First Gulf War, at 703,000. (Of course, no one now counts the quite expensive hired mercenaries who envelop our military -- the privatized, Halliburton-style adjuncts, who cook the food, build the bases, do the cleaning, deliver the mail and supplies, perform interrogation duties, and so on, and whose increase has been striking as has the growth of rent-a-mercenary corporations whose armed employees are, for instance, all over Iraq.) In addition, it has long been clear that the Armed Forces could not take the strain of failing wars in Central Asia and the Middle East forever, not to speak of increased "commitments" in the Persian Gulf and the normal massive global basing and policing that the Pentagon regularly refers to as our "footprint" on the planet. Added to this, the President seems to be leaning towards increasingly the pressure on military manpower needs by "surging" -- the Vietnam era word would, of course, have been "escalating" -- up to 30,000 troops into Baghdad and al-Anbar province, while naval and air forces (with an obvious eye to Iran) are simultaneously ramped up in the Persian Gulf.

In light of Iraq, military manpower needs cry out to be dealt with. In light of Iraq, dealing with them any time soon will be prohibitively expensive.

In Washington, this conundrum leads nowhere in particular. Instead, in the spirit of imperial-mission logic (and with the urge to bash the Bush administration for being late to such an obvious support-our-troops position), Democrats simply leaped onto the expand-the-military bandwagon even faster than Republicans. In fact, leading Democrats had long been calling for just this sort of expansion. ("I am glad has realized the need for increasing the size of the armed forces... but this is where the Democrats have been for two years," commented Rep. Rahm Emanuel, the new House Democratic Caucus chairman.) The Democratic leadership promptly pledged to make such an expansion one of its top reform priorities in the New Year. (my emphasis /JC)

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=152999

[MazeRat7]

47. Einstein, Newton, & Socrates ?

I really appreciate Cindy, but I'm doubtful that war protesting in the 21st century falls into the category of "original and unique thought".

MZr7

[EFerrari]

48. Really? Then why is Cindy an icon?

Seems to me that war protesting to the level she is taking it is original and unique thought. Precisely that.

[MazeRat7]

49. No, the thought is not original... the tactic is. Big difference. -nt

[EFerrari]

51. Parsing. There is no tactic without informing thought. n/t

[MazeRat7]

53. No, I said "original" thought.. again big difference. -nt

[EFerrari]

56. Then your understanding of original thought needs upgrading.

I can invent the wheel without inventing ball bearings. Please.

[MazeRat7]

65. Not likely - and BTW... neither a wheel or ball bearing is "original"... its been done.

Somehow I suspect you are not a person with a significant engineering or science background which would explain our disconnect here...

So lets let it be and move on to other things....

Peace.

MZr7

[EFerrari]

72. You may be right. We're talking over each other.

peace

[walldude]

57. It's not about what they said or did, it's about being called

a crackpot... I guess I could have spent all day listing known crackpots more along the lines of Cindy but who has that kind of time.... I believe you are um... nitpicking ;)

[MazeRat7]

60. Actually no, the mentioned three were never actually labeled

"crackpots" per se... more like enemies of the "state" for expressing "ideas" that were contrary to accepted belief both religious and scientific.

Cindy on the other hand is not expressing a new idea that is "contrary to popular scientific or religious belief"... most people around the world believe we need to get out of Iraq.
Granted some on the right consider her an "enemy of the state", but I fail to see how she can share the same company as the three mentioned.

So while it may sound like "nitpicking"... its not. Again, I really appreciate what she has done, but she will never breath the same air as Einstein, Newton, or Socrates.

Sorry... I just thought that comparison was a bit over the top.

MZr7

[walldude]

62. Ok look, I didn't start this thread to argue semantics with you

I bet if you google Einstein and Crackpot you can find people who thought he was nuts. But if it makes you feel better just ignore the first three names and go with the anti-war crackpots.. Or not.

[MazeRat7]

63. Tee hee... ok then we are good. btw: sorry for being such an engineer... -nt

[Imagevision]

59. These are difficult times we are living in, don't trust dems or Repugs, only results!!

All elected officials cannot be permitted to hide behind their positions...

[A-Schwarzenegger]

67. Amen, K&R.

[frazzledmom]

68. K & R

[bvar22]

69. K&R

I'm with Cindy.
I'm with walldude.
I'm for holding the Democrats feet to the fire.
THEY are accountable to US.
:kick:


The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

[kiteinthewind]

70. Kick, from a proud 'lunatic' Patriot!!

:patriot:

[walldude]

71. Jeeze.. after reading some of the other Cindy threads

there still seems to be some DU'ers who feel victimized for not "supporting" Cindy. Look folks the whole point of this thread was to show support in the face of more right-wing tactics. Anyone who reads this whole thread knows I'm all for debate and different points of view, as long as it remains civil. The debate today was never civil. It started with people calling her crackpot and crazy and then escalated to the point where someone actually posted that the only reason she was doing this was for attention and money(somehow I think that thread was started by someone young who has no children or who has never dealt with the horror of losing someone so close to you). Many DU'ers have no problem with a decent civil debate and I respect their opinion. If you feel you have been treated unfairly then you probably have but please excuse it, we are only trying to swim against some DU'ers who aren't as civil.

[Tom Joad]

74. Rahm Emanuel is the real "crackpot" He does not oppose the war.

[XOKCowboy]

75. I've been wavering on this...

If it hadn't been Raum Emmanuel I'd feel different. He needs to get the message. If she'd done it to Conyers or Pat Leahy I'd say she might have been grandstanding or at least a little overboard.

Lots of interesting comments today about Cindy. I shoulda knowd you'd stir the pot and put in people's faces. You're good at that! :)

Hope the family is well.

[walldude]

76. All is well my friend...

Hope your holidays were pleasant. Call me, we'll hook up for lunch this week, maybe take a trip to boulder..

As far as Cindy, I'm waiting for Bush to make his troop surge announcement, then to see if the Dems give him the money to finance it. If they do then she was totally righteous today. At least Feingold is on the ball trying to get a withdrawl timetable.