The environmental cost of having a baby.

[undergroundpanther]

Each American born in the 1990s will produce in a lifetime approximately 1.5 million kilograms (3.3 million lbs.) of atmospheric wastes (mostly CO2), 10 million kilograms (22 million lbs.) of liquid wastes, and one million kilograms (2.2 million lbs.) of solid wastes (mostly pro-rata share of agricultural, mining and construction wastes, and including 83,000 kg (185,000 pounds) of hazardous & toxic waste.

Each American will consume 700,000 kilograms (1.5 million lbs.) of minerals (mostly sand and gravel), and 24 billion BTUs of energy -- equivalent to 4000 barrels of oil (40% in petroleum products, 25% each in natural gas and coal). In a lifetime, an average American will eat 25,000 kilograms (55,000 lbs.) of plant foods (20% each in vegetables, sweeteners, fruits & juices, grains, and other plant products) and 28,000 kilograms (60,000 lbs.) of animal products (70% milk, 7% each beef, chicken and pork), provided in part by slaughtering 2000 animals (>90% poultry)

Each American's consumption will result in the permanent loss of approximately one hectare (2.5 acres) of forest, wilderness and wetlands, and the incremental poisoning with chemicals of fifty times this acreage, mostly with oil-based fertilizers, herbicides and pesticides. Each American will also consume in a lifetime 162,000 cubic meters (5.7 million cubic feet) of fresh water and directly or indirectly 170 cubic meters (6,000 cubic feet) of timber.


http://blogs.salon.com/0002007/2007/01/02.html#a1740

So much for be fruitful and multiply, seems like our fertility and the consumption is creates is killing us.
If indeed you believe God said such a thing... I think if it WAS a god it must have been a god out to kill us and this planet by glorifying childbirth to this point, talking like a greedy human petty lord,wanting someone else to enslave,to maintain his property for him so he does not have to do the work,in that statement.
Childbirth keeps us all chained to this inhuman system that is killing us and the planet. Populations risk upsetting the hands that feed and profit from their suffering less if children keep them in debt and "conservative" in their political and social risks.

[porphyrian]

1. That's assuming we make no changes for the better.

The good thing about those statistics is that they are all possible to change.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

5. Or changes for the worse... which is always

possible given US history.

[porphyrian]

12. The trick is to not leave the change up to other people.

If you want something done right...

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

17. you mean like the US Government

Ha!

[porphyrian]

34. No, I mean like you and me. However, you are partly correct.

Although I have no idea what your nationality is, the American people are supposed to be represented by the American government, so in that sense, assuming things are as they're supposed to be, it would be like the US government.

[nam78_two]

2. K&R.nt

[originalpckelly]

3. Damn breeders having children!

:grr:

:eyes:

[Reterr]

4. yes!

The planet has INFINITE resources! Overpopulation is not an issue at all.
And Americans in particular lead very restrained lives and don't over consume at all....:sarcasm:

:eyes:

[originalpckelly]

6. As we all know the best way to end our need for fossil fuels...

is to keep people from having children.

:eyes:

[Reterr]

13. No-I think everyone should have 10 kids

:eyes:

[originalpckelly]

19. I think we ought to have no children and whip out the Flavor Aid...

that's the only way to take care of the environment. How dare the human species try and live?

[Reterr]

21. Is this how you debate?

How about something in between having 10 (which is increasingly common-especially in the religious right) and 0?
Or is even bringing up the issue a sign of being a baby-hater :eyes:?

[originalpckelly]

38. America is 156 out of 223 in birth rates...

That means 155 countries have higher birth rates than America. What you are talking about needs to be solved through growth and innovation, it will not be solved by births.

We're ranked higher than only 67 countries.

Now, if people are having children because they don't know about birth control, then by all means educate them.

But there are much better places to look to spend our time, in making society more efficient.

Every year the population grows by approximately 3 million people . That's a lot, but not as many as the whole population, which now is 300 million people strong.

The problem will not be solved by preventing people from reproducing, we need to figure out how to make the lives of the people who are here less hurtful to the environment.

Even if we kept everyone in America from having children, the population would only be reduced in size every year by 1.5 million people, it would still take 100 years to cut our population in half

[PaulaFarrell]

225. In 100 years most people be would be dead

so the population would be next to nothing, not 150 million or so. Unless there is an unexpected increase in the average lifespan

[Warren DeMontague]

175. If a fundy family wants to have 10 kids, that's their business.

If they want those kids taught "intelligent design" in Public School science class, then it's my business.

[The Stranger]

37. Oh fucking please.

The human species is not "trying" to live, it is obliterating every other species in existence. And doing it faster and faster. And thinking it is the "Godly" thing to do.

[originalpckelly]

40. Well, I don't give a damn about God. I give a damn about the fact...

that telling everyone to stop having children will not have that sizable impact on the population.

[The Stranger]

43. Well then give a damn about those of us on this planet, and the need to stop overpopulation.

Educate those who appear to "give a damn about God," but are overpopulating the planet like rabbits.

[originalpckelly]

46. Those in our country aren't the problem. I'm sorry you simply don't know the math...

other countries have birth rates which are 500% higher than Americas. The problem in this country is overconsumption and the unwillingness to pursue other ways to keep consumption the same, but lessen it's environmental impact.

[The Stranger]

49. I think that trying to turn this into an "Our Country" vs. "Their Country" is horrifyingly misguided

given the fact that all of these "countries" are on the same fucking planet, which is overpopulated.

[originalpckelly]

52. Well, overpopulation is not a problem in this country. It's the overconsumption...

and that's fact. If you don't believe me, and are too lazy to look it up for yourself, than I suppose I'll have to help you.

[Warren DeMontague]

182. Poor people with little access to birth control and an excess of theocratic domination are the main

source of the population explosion.

Perhaps people should chew on that, and maybe try to figure out how to address those issues, instead of yelling at folks in first world countries with small, zero, or negative population growth to stop having kids.

[Odin2005]

14. Actually, it is the best way.

The Enviroment is funamentally an overpopulation issue.

[Reterr]

16. Gasp-you hate babies!

:spank:

[originalpckelly]

41. The problem with America is far from overpopulation, but rather...

overconsumption.

[The Stranger]

42. No, the problem is overpopulation, and the fact that some STILL can't accept this.

[originalpckelly]

47. You know I can prove what I'm saying, can you?

America's impact on the environment is overconsumption NOT overpopulation.

[The Stranger]

53. Try to think in terms of the planet -- the environment doesn't give a shit about national boundaries

and trying to turn this into an issue of whose country is more at fault is frighteningly short-sighted.

[originalpckelly]

55. No, the lifestyle of America is significantly different from those of other countries...

especially the ones with high birth rates. We are at fault for having such a decadent and high environmental impact society. They are responsible for having low impact lifestyles with high birth rates.

Africa can be helped by birth control and in general family planning, America will and can be helped by reducing the impact of our lifestyle on the environment.

[smoogatz]

56. You're completely wrong.

"With less than 5 percent of global population, the United States accounts for about one fourth of global consumption."

http://www.sierraclub.org/population/consumption/

Industrialized nations with low birthrates consume way more per capita AND overall then non-industrialized nations with high birth rates. The problem is not population, it's consumption. It's obvious, if you actually take a moment to think about it.

[The Stranger]

209. You seem to assume that consumption is something that can be wished away.

It's not. Everyone in the world wants a "higher standard of living," and everyone in the world is, on some level, entitled to a higher standard of living, and will be expected to live more on par with the industrialized nations. And the more people there are born every second expecting that higher standard of living, the more we are fucked worse and worse by OVERPOPULATION.

Therefore, denying that overpopulation is a problem, and instead wrongly claiming that ONLY overconsumption is a problem, further exacerbates the problems threatening this fucking planet.

[smoogatz]

216. There's no consumption instinct.

Mass consumer culture is entirely a 20th century corporate creation. It was wished into existence, and it can just as easily be made to seem un-stylish and undesirable--just look at the sudden rise of economy cars in the 70's and 80's, and the disdain with which American consumers viewed "gas guzzlers" until Reagan told us it was okay to be wasteful again. Sure, overpopulation is a problem--one that was self-corrected previously in human history by great wars, great famines and great plagues. But it's not THE problem in terms of pollution and overuse of resources. The numbers are clear--nations/regions with low birthrates consume way more than nations with high birth rates. In those low birth rate, high consumption nations, reducing the birth rate even further is not the solution. Obviously.

On edit: Putting your entire post in boldface doesn't make it any less wrong, you know.

[The Stranger]

221. You keep calling me wrong, then you agree that overpopulation is [at least] part of the problem.

Anyone who doesn't think people of other nations are not aspiring to, if not entitled to, the high standard of living the U.S. enjoys has not been keeping up with current events, in particular, those in China and the rest of Asia.

[Warren DeMontague]

222. Well, then, perhaps they'll limit their reproduction on their own, with no help from finger-waggers

just as has been done here, and in Europe.

[smoogatz]

223. They can aspire all they want.

That doesn't mean it will be available to them, or that current economic conditions are sustainable--I doubt very much that they are. The current (relative) prosperity in India and China depends entirely on the continued growth of consumerism in the West--particularly the U.S. I think we're headed fairly quickly for economic collapse here, brought on by a crisis in personal and government debt. That reversal would also reverse economic growth in Asia.

And let's not put words in poor old smoogatz's mouth--I said that overpopulation is a problem. I did not say it was "part of the (consumption) problem." It might become part of the consumption problem, especially if China's current boom continues unabated for a generation or two--but that's mighty unlikely. And overpopulation is not an issue in the West, which currently has historically low birth rates, as I've already pointed out. The two problems are orbiting each other, in a way, but they are currently distinct issues, as all available statistics make clear. You seem to want to combine them in order to support your contention that Americans/Westerners are having too many babies--but that would be a gross misunderstanding/oversimplification. In fact, consumption is made possible at least in part by NOT having children, or by deferring childbearing into what used to be middle age. People with kids have neither the time nor the disposable income, typically, to fully engage in mass consumer culture. The numbers bear this out--fewer kids=more consumption, not less.

[Odin2005]

226. Bull.

The Industrial Revolution allowed mass consumerism but the desire to show off via conspucous consumption has been around forever. The idea that overconsumption is a societal problem is blank-slatist nonsense.

[smoogatz]

236. Conspicuous consumption isn't the problem.

Mass consumer culture is. Apparently you don't understand the distinction.

[Warren DeMontague]

218. Take a look at this, why don'tcha. Then pray tell explain what lecturing American blog readers

is supposed to actually accomplish, aside from allowing self-righteous "childfree activists" to grind their fucking axe at those of us who "selfishly" decide to have kids.

[Mikey929]

215. Sarcasm

Read Bill Bryson's book The History of Everything. You will realize how darned huge this world really is and the resources it has.

In reality, the Earth has massive amounts of resources to feed all of the people on the planet and many many more. There are vast areas of land (not counting ice-locked land) that is not even used. In the U.S., we occupy less than 10% of usable land in the country. So there is room for more.

Having babies is not good or bad. It is simply nature's dictate to us. The desire to procreate is built in to the genes of every single living thing, from the tiniest little anonymous animal to human beings. Life is its own entity and it will strive to continue; that is its nature.

I do believe the Earth has great recuperative ability. It has existed for billions of years and it will do its best to continue in that vein.

[femrap]

50. When I grew up, the subject of Population Control

was a hot topic. Ever since Reagan, the topic has been squashed. In fact the opposite has occurred....the right-wing wants Compulsory Motherhood.

I remember having conversations about how society puts pressure on women to have children...to conform to the norm of being a woman, you must become a mother. It's a very subtle, but distinct pressure put on young women to become mothers.

How many women truly feel the 'calling' of motherhood or is it just something that you have to do. These were the things we discussed back in the '60's and'70's. I tell young women today...look at our world. Do you really want to bring children into it? Do you really have a deep-seated desire for motherhood? Have you considered being a foster parent? Adoption?

I've seen so many unwanted children who need love...

[undergroundpanther]

193. I feel the same

You aren't alone in your empathy.

[cynatnite]

81. Oh, if I had only known...

*sobs*


:rofl:

[Seeking Serenity]

7. Getting my popcorn.

Let the games begin.

:popcorn:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. Of course, one could take one for the team and commit suicide.

There's always that option.

On the other hand, given that we're already overpopulated, a crash is imminent. And therefore I'd want to have as many kids as possible, so my post-apocalyptic shotgun and chainsaw weilding, trans am-driving crime family can steal as much gasoline and vegemite as possible.

[originalpckelly]

10. ...

:spray:

Sometimes you come up with best responses. :rofl:

[Reterr]

11. Or practice birth control.nt

[originalpckelly]

15. Oh come on now, don't you want to help the environment?

Why aren't you willing to kill yourself for the good of the planet?

:shrug:

[Reterr]

18. You are so scientific it boggles the mind

How can a debate not be productive with such a wise person???! So I take it you think over-population is not a problem at all?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

20. How can we have a productive conversation about...

over-population without bringing up the topics of mass suicide, purposefully overpopulation in order to ensure the spread of one's own genes, or, of course, mass culling?

After all, it's nature's way.

:D

[originalpckelly]

22. Well, there are simple ways to end that aren't there?

[undergroundpanther]

68. Suicide is the leading killer of teens.

Some can and do kill themselves when they look at the world and culture thier parents leave for them to fix and survive through.I am 42 I have tried to kill myself before and it failed. Suicide ain't easy. Anyways I am glad I am not a baby today. I wish I was on my deathbed faster because the future looks terrifying to me and it appears I am not the only one seeing it.

[undergroundpanther]

58. I have tried to 25 times

It's harder than you think to kill yourself.
And yes I have had NO children. I decided that when I was a child. I cannot in good conscience force a free soul to come here and incarnate in a dying sack of flesh on a planet that's polluted, crowded, competitive, so full of bullshit and cultures of make believe,as it's all dying and being run into hell by a bunch of greedy ass sociopaths, and rich pigs and the people who enable them.
I hate this place and the sooner I get out and die the better,and I will NEVER look back. Wanna see hell, well it's here and we collectively have enabled the"leaders and plunderers and bullies among us to make make it hell.

[smoogatz]

64. I guess there's no point in wishing you a happy new year, then.

Yeesh.

[undergroundpanther]

72. To me

It's another line on the prison or"cave"wall, as in plato's cave.New year whatever it means not much to me I notice the seasons, the moon phases and stuff more than I pay attention to clocks and the calender days anyways.My birthday is harder for me to cope with because it is personal. Marking my years in this prison..I feel very suicidal on my birthday.

[smoogatz]

77. It's none of my business, but

occasional use of mild anti-depressants has made a huge difference in my life. I'm just saying.

[undergroundpanther]

88. They don't do much for me

I have been on all of them except two that gave me really bad side effects.

[originalpckelly]

78. You're not in prison are you?

:shrug:

[undergroundpanther]

98. As in Jail? Behind bars NO.

I feel like existence is prison.My life is prison. Where I pay to exist in this life I did not choose. I was born here and making the taj mahal out of shit doesn't erase the fact it is shit to me. I am torn apart inside about this world the way life feeds upon life to live and die anyway. The suffering, the war, the hurt.. It is a nightmare I cannot escape until I die. I do My best to help when I can but It's like a drop in the ocean. The planet is dying,too few people grasp the seriousness of this, they are in denial. My heart is shattered and there is no way I can do anything that will stop the games people play to avoid facing this, I do what I can and it is never enough.I am very sensitized. Trauma has made me this way and other things. And therapy can't fix it. I have been in therapy since I was 15 I am 41 now. I have improved in coping skill somewhat, but the pain,hyper vigilance sensitivity , feelings they do not stop.I have a high IQ so because of that I don't get understood easy sometimes,I am always seeking to understand and know why,and because of this and the sensitivity and perception issue I have I cannot close my eyes to it. I can suppress it sometimes but it never goes. My brain is scarred from trauma.I am locked in vigilance mode.I am beginning to think it is sane to feel despair when your heart is broken when the planet is being murdered and life made so cheap and so much abuse goes on.I am the kind of weirdo that cries over roadkills because I see it was a precious being,a beautiful whatever I can feel how it got hit in a violent way and left to die all because we depend on cars too much and let idiots plan our communities for the $$$ instead of for life..There is an ugly interactive chain of causation leading to the mess we are in..That I am in.. Get the picture?.
Read more to see where I am coming from.
http://www.unknownnews.net/a0308.html#upits302

[originalpckelly]

105. What things make you depressed? Simple short list.

[undergroundpanther]

117. Ok

The way this world IS.

[originalpckelly]

120. Do you believe it is a logical thought that one person will be able to make...

6 billion people change? Why should you bear that mental weight? Are you responsible for all 6 billion people?

[undergroundpanther]

129. No I am not responsible for 6 million people.

I am responsible for ME though.

I am responsible for my sense of right and wrong and all the consequences that entails
I am responsible for how I treat others.
I am responsible for setting my boundaries.
I am responsible for caring and saying so.

I am responsible for the things that matter to me.

And believe it or not this sad suffering place does matter, I would like to help ease the pain. I would like to fight the denial.
I have experienced things that some have not and I have something to share.
I am responsible for living up to my own standards at the time.
So I share ,for if I was to pretend everything was fine as it is, it would be wrong to my heart it would be intolerable to me to lie like that. So I say what I say.


And..YOU are responsible for what you do with it.Or don't do.

[originalpckelly]

144. No, I didn't say you can't change things, but you have to realize one thing:

It doesn't matter how upset you are or depressed, it won't make the situation better, it just means that you are upset and depressed.

You actually fail in your responsibility as human if you are depressed, because it keeps you from doing more, doesn't it?

Do you bound out of bed in the morning to go to a rally if you're depressed?

Do you think about how to actually convince people to make the right decisions about the environment, if you're depressed?

I'm willing to bet you don't. Just remember that being depressed doesn't help the world, it just hurts you.

[undergroundpanther]

159. You don't know me

I have bad days and better days.
Don't blame depression to help yourself be able to ignore the real gist of what I am saying here. It's real easy to scream disregard the loon, but it takes courage to hear the meaning of the message regardless of the messenger.
I have seen total brilliance come from the minds of psychotics.Incredible empathy from the clinically depressed.Mind boggling precise creativity from obsessives for I have been on the inside( for years). And I find on the inside of the loon bin is where there are people who see the truth , there they reside for a time, trying to make sense of the unreasonable, the catch 22 we are all born into, until they are shoved out to play normal until they can't do it anymore..and they go back inside.When the truth bleeds from them that is when people try their hardest to shut them up. People get wounded by the system,if they still remember how it feels as they grow up, they see the lies we are told are true in a sad world. It is the 'crazy'ones who do not deny it hurts to live the way we do and some condemn it's ways and reject our sick culture in their own way..The meaning is so deep yet so immediate..
http://www.successfulschizophrenia.org/
http://deoxy.org/gaia/index.htm

[bicentennial_baby]

212. Just an aside here, but

Who the fuck do you think you are? Seriously...How f'n presumptuous of you... :puke:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

75. I myself have 25 kids.

Don't tell my wife.

So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Get some help, UP.

[undergroundpanther]

79. Some things therapy and drugs can't fix.

PSTD and the inability to play make believe about the fact we are killing ourselves and killing this planet . That is the truth the shrinks can't fix because well, it's true..

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

80. I'll agree on the former.

[uppityperson]

92. UP? Hey, there are a couple of us here.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[uppityperson]

91. well dang, glad you haven't suceeded, nice to have met you here

really, am glad to have been able to read what you have written. Entropy wins. Humans are only another species. But we have to pretend it matters anyways, even in the long run it doesn't. Peace to you.

[Warren DeMontague]

106. "I hate this place and the sooner I get out and die the better"

I'm sorry you've had a miserable time of it, but you'll excuse me if I never take a single sliver of your advice about anything, ever. I really don't think you're in a position to be telling other people how to run their affairs.

[undergroundpanther]

122. I ain't telling anyone how to run their affairs

Stupid selfish people will run their affairs regardless of what ANYONE says, They don't listen to the top scientists either, so who the fuck am I but a depressed person that is unworthy of being heard as you see it.And things will happen as they go and the stupid people, the Pollyanna's will wonder why things got so bad and they'll fail to realize what their part in it was . Denial is a powerful motive.Too powerful.

[Warren DeMontague]

180. Like I said.

Perhaps you should try to find a way to make your existence more bearable, instead of yelling at the people who choose to have kids. Which -let's not kid ourselves, excuse the pun- is the gist of this thread. Really. I wish you luck.

You're right about one thing, though. If no one has kids, certainly at some point no one will be around to wonder why things got "so bad", as you put it.

[undergroundpanther]

188. Pull the loon card much

on people saying stuff that you don't like hearing.
Grow up.You are part of why is sucks here,right this minute, it's your snottiness.I ain't yelling and you are too defensive for me to take you seriously. You don't give a damn you just want me to stop saying what I say you don't like because you can't deal with it, and that is YOUR problem, hun.

We are consuming and overpopulating ourselves to death and there are limits to what this Earth can support and we humans don't respect limits and make it personal. Some think if one person chooses kids it's ok running over the planets carrying capacity..they tell themselves 1 won't cause much pain in the future, but sadly many other selfish people think that way too.One won't hurt two can't hurt 10 isn't bad and some don't stop until the man or woman can't do it..and they never think beyond what they want for themselves.That's the problem with denial it causes a disconnect a profound insensitivity to what is happening in reality, the one beyond your little circle of friends and life.

[Warren DeMontague]

204. I didn't pull ANY card. I was responding to what you wrote in YOUR post.

Hell, I even thought I was bending over backwards to be nice about it.

You start a grousing thread with the clear intention of lecturing DU'ers who "selfishly" reproduce, and I'm part of why it sucks? Sure thing.

Here's a question. If the folks having one kid are "selfish", who do you propose should be permitted to reproduce at all?

[noamnety]

9. The problem seems to be consumption habits of Americans

more than breeding habits.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

23. HOW DARE HUMANS PROCREATE! DAMN SELFISH FUCKERS!!!!

:eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes: :eyes:

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Reterr]

25. Wow-you people really like black and white don't you?

How about something in between-like advocacy saying people have 1 or 2 ids instead of 10?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

29. How Bout It's None Of Your Fucking Business, And If You Only Want 1 Or 2 Feel Free.

[Reterr]

31. How about you share a planet with others?.nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

32. I Am. In Fact, I'm Sharing It With However Many There Fuckin Happen To Be. How Bout You?

Oh yeah, I forgot, you don't want to share with everybody. Only the amount that you dictate.

[Reterr]

36. Read the science on overpopulation

And see how long the planet will survive with unchecked population explosion. Yes, Paul Ehrlich's first estimate may be off but its only a matter of time. The planet does not have infinite resources and you won't find too many scientists disputing that. You aren't doing anyone any favors by campaigning for population explosion, as warm and fuzzy as your little post is.

But something tells me the libertarian crowd isn't particularly interested in uncomfortable science. Look what they did with global warming. Thanks for nothing Richard Lindzen-hope the $3000/hour checks from Exxonmobil were worth it.
(Oh and preemptively -no one is advocating mass murder of babies but merely education about population control)


Good day.

[Warren DeMontague]

183. The population explosion isn't taking place in this country, or in Europe.

Population growth has self-stabilized in most first world nations, with no help or prodding from authoritarian minded busybodies. Just give people access to birth control, a decent standard of living, and enough freedom from religious whackjobs to be able to screw for non-procreative purposes, and the problem takes care of itself. A truly socially (read: freedom for individuals, not corporate freedom) libertarian solution.

[undergroundpanther]

66. Gasp you said a evil word..Share.

It's better to say fuck in America than that commie word, Share.

[smoogatz]

59. America currently has the lowest birth rate in its history--

at 13.9 live births per 1,000 persons as of 2002. The demographics indicate that that trend will continue, because the number of women of child-bearing age is declining as the population ages. Europe's birth rate is even lower. So, who are these people you're talking about who have ten kids?

[Warren DeMontague]

203. Stop with your damn facts.

You're interfering with some folks' extremely satisyfing bout of

[originalpckelly]

44. You know OMC, I did the math on this when this happened last time...

overpopulation is far from Americas problem. Even if everyone in America stopped having children, it would take 100 years to cut the population in half. These people aren't focusing on real issues, the ones of overconsumption. This is just an excuse to tell people how to live their lives.

Now in other parts of the world, over population is a problem, because their populations are placing a great burden on the environment, even though they don't consume much individually, their large populations more than make up for it.

[pitohui]

24. any reason you started TWO posts on this topic?

for the record i think anyone who has had a child should be sterilized, it is only fair if it applies to all, to every country and creed, not just to americans or to the chinese

at this point, we've got to stop breeding or we're cooked, however, if only the most educated people who are most capable of foresight and planning for the future stop breeding -- the current situation -- then we fill the planet with fundamentalist religious hysterics of every stripe because they ARE outbreeding us and they do NOT care about the future because their various tin gods will save them

since there is no world body willing or able to enforce this equally and fairly to all peoples, then i don't see any use in debating the topic

the responsible people will control the size of their families and the fundy hysteric losers incapable of thinking for themselves will gradually breed us out of the population


sorry for the grim little note of doom but there it is

[Reterr]

27. Americans consume way more-huge difference.nt

[pitohui]

35. that is a very poor argument you know

many nations of the world, esp. europe, are raising their standard of living

it's debatable to me, having traveled, that americans do consume way more, we have facts not in evidence and some old data methinks

americans consumed way more in 1985, i don't doubt it

i would like to see where the average resident of new orleans or pine ridge, south dakota consumes more than the average resident of, say, munich, germany, i have to say i just don't believe this to be the case, it is obvious to me that there are many areas outside the usa where people consume way, way more than i could ever hope to consume

usa is a big place, so painting all "americans" w. one brush as consumers is fairly ridiculous

there are people in new orleans who just now got electricity after a YEAR, try telling them how much they consume sometime

as another poster points out upstream, usa already has a relatively low birth rate, the problem is that we just continue to grow through immigration because other countries DON'T control their birth rates, so we still can't save our wilderness and our other resources, people might rightly decide that not having a child saves nothing environmentally (because someone else will just come from elsewhere and use our same resources, as we don't secure our borders) so they might as well please their biological/emotional instincts

i think it's horrible, tragic, and sad, but yelling at americans for breeding while not yelling at the others won't work for a number of reasons

[originalpckelly]

51. Consumption is different from birthrate. If you want to talk about over-consumption...

you'll have plenty of friends, because that's a fact. However, overpopulation is not our problem, and it is a bunch of BS. The facts, which I can fully inform you of would beg to differ greatly with your presumptions and proclamations.

[Book Lover]

26. Having children makes you conservative?

"Populations risk upsetting the hands that feed and profit from their suffering less if children keep them in debt and "conservative" in their political and social risks."

Care to explicate that a little? I'm having a hard time squaring that assertion not only with the example of my own life but also with Cindy's example. It's hard for me to see how her being a mother led her to a conservative viewpoint.

[pitohui]

30. i think the article was poor ly phrased but

in many populations, conservatives esp. religious extremist conservatives do not control the size of their families because it's against god's will, hence they are having these ridiculous families of 8 children while the educated and more liberal couple, unafraid of planning for the future and even (gasp!) using birth control has one carefully planned-for child

over time this means the population will become more conservative because more babies are born to conservatives than to liberals, yeah, there is teen rebellion but reality is that 80 percent of kids will follow in the footsteps of their parents

is this not what we have seen in the last 3 decades in usa?

[undergroundpanther]

63. Well

Are you willing to risk your job to organize a labor strike and improve conditions for everyone..if it meant you might not have enough money for awhile to pay for the child's doctors,buy stuff like diapers or formula?If it may mean you will be on the street?

Babies can tie you down, to the system that exploits the crazy one man, one woman stupid nuclear family model that bullshit that makes sure labor never organizes and the less than elite never get any solidarity to challenge assholes like bush in any other way past waving signs typing online and yelling. How can you care for baby waiting for bail in a jail cell for civil disobedience to tell the government they are abusing power in a way that makes the fat dogs sit up and notice the nation is displeased? Oh yeah can you really take a two year old to a protest and not only watch after a toddler in a huge crowd , you hope a cop does not pepper spray you in the wrong place wrong time, and nail your child with pepper spray too.Never mind the horses that could trample your kid so easy and the batons.

Get it?

[Book Lover]

90. You are changing the subject

Now, instead of saying that having kids makes you conservative, you are saying that having a kid cramps your style if your style happens to be attending protests when your kid is a toddler. That can be true, yes. I would never bring a toddler to a protest or demonstration. That does not a conservative make.

[undergroundpanther]

110. You didn't get it let me try again.

Conservative does not always mean right-winger. It also means caution. withholding. slow changes aversive to risk.

These times require people to take risk.

If you have a toddler in tow you will not take risks like someone who is child free.

Children cause people to be distracted by children's needs,to sacrifice to meet those needs which is normal.

Corporations need you to depend on them.Children are one of the ways they exploit us and suppress labor.
If you are too self sufficient you will not sell your labor so cheap because you don't need what they sell..If you are child free you can do without things you cannot do without with kids. Because your kids depend on you, and you depend on a job to provide for your kids you are less able to defy corrupted authority and fight the exploitation from corporations that you depend on for the sake of your child. Understand what I mean here.
Your child forces you to be more invested in the system,to be more risk aversive and less eager to defy the system that is destroying all of us, for the survival of your offspring. This creates a ethical conflict of interest,and it will remain until things get so bad for you that your dependence on corrupt authority begins to lead your child into more danger and the nature of the risk changes and you may be forced by the state of affairs to flee the country, go underground or get involved even if your child might be hurt, for the situation is that bad that trusting corporations is unbearable and having steady work is impossible..

[Book Lover]

158. Oh, I get it. I was waiting for you to articulate it.

Kids grow up. In your scheme, I am only out of the risk-taking pool for a few years. Also, I have to tell you that having a kid is not as expensive as so many make out.

[undergroundpanther]

160. For alot of people it is

For teen mothers,some single mothers, for minimum wage earners,basically for people below middle class, it costs a hell of alot..

[Book Lover]

171. No, it takes more of their paltry income

it does not cost more in an absolute sense, which is what you are saying.

You really need to think clearly before you type. I want to be on your side, but you state your positions so poorly...

[undergroundpanther]

177. Ok I don't word it how you prefer

Scuuuze me.

I have had a very hard time translating my thoughts all my life so people like you can get it. Sorry you can't get it. Oh well.I guess we are too different. What seems clear to me isn't to you. Isn't that a common problem?
Are you able to go past it or not?
You obviously understood what I meant in my other post.
Sorry you had to work a bit. But I work to understand you..

[Telly Savalas]

112. So if everybody echews having kids to organize unions

there won't be anybody around to do the same thing in 70 years.

[undergroundpanther]

137. The population has NEVER dropped to zero

And unions are not the only way to fight back . Dropping out forming other ways of living in this empire without being part of it puts you in danger too.The state hates people that do not depend on it.

People will always have kids. Curbing how many kids are born at least until you are ready emotionally would be a good step.
Too many kids are born to soothe the parents emotional issues.
The rates of child abuse is appalling, and it is the child's own parents doing it.. People need to realize childrearing is hard and not something to do for a whim. Having kids is a SERIOUS commitment.
You are bringing another human being here,in a world that is not always kind and if you ain't ready emotionally you will only hurt the child and feed it your own denied pain and the child will reflect it back to you as it gets older and if you are not ready for facing that you might want to rethink the birth thing.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

28. I'm with you all the way - we need to decrease both the population

worldwide and the consumption of natural resources. I'm amazed that on a liberal forum like DU, worries over the destruction of the environment, the extinction of species, and rape of the planet through unthinking overpopulation seem to have become such small and unpopular causes with many.

[undergroundpanther]

67. Yes BOTH need to slow down

And you know it takes 2000 years for plastic baby diapers to rot away? Long past the life of the child that shat in them.

[The Stranger]

33. But the Christian Fundamentalists are racing to have more and more children,

campaigning against birth control, and fucking the rest of us already doomed to this, our only planet.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15701301/site/newsweek/

In a new movement, Christians 'open their wombs to God.'

The Bortels with 10 of their 11 kids, who range in age from 1 to 20.

Nov. 13, 2006 - It’s hardly a typical scene from the suburbs. The Bortel home outside San Antonio counts 12 members—parents David and Suzanne and their 10 children, ranging from 13 months to 15 (the 20-year-old married and moved away)—all crammed into a four-bedroom house that trembles constantly with activity. Everything revolves around the home: Dad works there, the kids are schooled there, the youngest three were born there. The family uses a 15-passenger van to get around, and at night, the kids climb into multiple sets of bunk beds. David and Suzanne hear the same questions repeatedly. So for the record: No, they’re not Catholic. Yes, they’ve heard of birth control. And no, they’re not crazy. In fact, they’d happily welcome a 12th child. “It’s about obedience to God,” says David, 38. “The Bible says that God is the only opener and closer of the womb.”

[pitohui]

39. this is why we need legislation applied and enforced to ALL

otherwise it's hopeless

what's the point of "saving the environment" so some nasty mormons and fundies can eat it for breakfast?

[originalpckelly]

61. So what type of legislation? Fines for having a child? You're going to start the sex police?

How exactly do you plan to enforce this?

[undergroundpanther]

114. I dunno

Because everytime birth control is in the hands of the state it becomes eugenics.

[originalpckelly]

131. That's because differences aren't efficient. Good governments try for efficiency.

You know one more thing, life isn't efficient either.

Just think about it, there would be no energy problems if we weren't here.

Of course, just a hint, if we weren't here energy wouldn't matter.

[undergroundpanther]

147. I know

But than again how did slips of paper printed with certain designs begin to equal access to food shelter warmth etc.? By BELIEF. Beliefs have caused us alot of suffering.Energy matters because we believe we need a certain kind of lifestyle. We believe we need jobs and cars. And we altered the planet to suit our beliefs. And now we are about to pay for this vast generational game of pretend.We believe OUR child deserves this and that access to antibiotics etc. Children slaves in India don't get that .while nature the nature some glorify would have killed both kids off regardless of what either mother wanted.We believe we deserve to be young forever,to get food easy, to be independent of others, etc. and reality does not work the way we want to believe it does and so we stab ourselves in the foot with our innovations' to escape nature and the fact we HAVE to share this planet and it cannot be OWNED, We keep doing the same thing that doesn't work, and since we have done the comfy route beliefs have proven they are dangerous illusions and reality will have it's say regardless of what we believe we deserve..Question is can we cope? Will we survive? Who? or will just the top 1 percent who go off planet when the shit hits the fan?

[originalpckelly]

153. I'm a little tired to really get into a serious debate tonight.

I hope you won't mind, maybe we can start a debate about this tomorrow?

[undergroundpanther]

162. Sure PM me tomorrow

G'night!

[undergroundpanther]

76. Well

If they want a culture war, maybe they are pushing limits of sanity like that so they will be killed off by an angry starving mob who are sick of the fundie bullshit and the thugs using up too much hoarding and giving nothing but words and false hopes and riot police and blackwater mercenaries in return, Selling a heaven that never comes to desperate lonely people it's spiritual abuse..Sellers of fantasies are dangerous to species survival if they control too much. If we have a culture war I hope it will be open season,on alpha types,'conservatives',sociopaths and fundie assholes.I have enough anger and despair in my heart to kill them all myself it feels sometimes.

[uppityperson]

95. God is the only opener and closer of the womb? Yeah, but you can

always, well, not have sex when you are fertile, or use a condom, or something. After all, God wouldn't have made basal thermometers or condoms if God didn't want them used, right?

[RB TexLa]

45. Well, there you go my gift to the environment, as well as myself

[mitchum]

48. But...but...come glory in that which is an extension of me!

[gollygee]

54. Maybe we should do like the Shakers

and all die off in a generation. :eyes:

[smoogatz]

57. You'd be doing the world a huge favor if you comitted suicide, you know.

I mean really--ten families in Bangladesh could live on what you throw away. The fact that you continue to eat, shit, breathe and take showers makes you incredibly socially irresponsible. Shame on you. Shame!

[originalpckelly]

60. Oh smoogatz, there you go, talking about reality.

Damn you and your levelheadedness.

[smoogatz]

62. Well, I was going to suggest that babies are in fact an extremely useful

natural resource--delicious when properly cooked, and easily rendered down to make a fine, clean-burning oil (baby oil, obviously). But I thought people might be upset by that.

[undergroundpanther]

65. Hahaha

Good one. And if things get really bad because we are too bound to conservative ideas like one man one woman individual households, we might find economic fascism will drive some desperate people to do things to kids one would never think possible now. Like sell them into sex slavery. Like they do in countries with worse birthrates. scary thought when you think about how many conservative republicans turn out to be pedophiles..And child labor in china is cheep.

[smoogatz]

71. I worry that you're enjoying this avenue of discussion a bit too much.

I was kidding, obviously. You?

[originalpckelly]

74. Cooking for humans. Oh wait, that says "cooking four humans."

:rofl:

[undergroundpanther]

84. Snort..

Four! I couldn't possibly eat four.Unless they were fetal..(ok I grossed myself out here)

[originalpckelly]

94. I don't know what buzz snorting humans gives you...

but I want to learn more. :P

[undergroundpanther]

83. Yes somewhat

But the stuff I said about what desperate people might do to survive I wasen't kidding about that I was warning people.Warning them what could happen if they do not stand up and organize and stand up against the'leaders',bosses Ceos and globalization.
The G20 protests are violent. You gonna drag an infant or two year old to a protest a strike? Probably not. So a child caretaker cannot be there to help fight..
Child labor in the US fancy that..Just how did these kids become slaves? Like they do in any other country.
http://www.childlaborphotoproject.org/childlabor.html#us

[originalpckelly]

70. ...

:spank:

[undergroundpanther]

87. Tell the richest top 1 percent

To stop they consume way more than everyone. Tell them who profit off our consumer addiction to teach the population how to NOT be consumer pigs and show us how to rebuild community ties and how to exist without the cozy profit making system of exploitation these "leaders of industry" called"empire" made and fed us and trained us all to serve for generations and not dare question the culture of pretend that we had to believe in and conform to from cradle to grave.. The top 1 percent lived too well at the expense of this planet,and our connections and lives now we must FORCE them to fix it and PAY UP. The top 1 per centers will evade responsibility as long as we tolerate it.Or we all die. That is reality.

[smoogatz]

155. Now there we agree.

No argument from me.

[undergroundpanther]

161. And that is step ONE.

And the top one percenters will not do this until we force them to and keep them from MANIPULATING us. They are not going to help us willingly unless it is thier own asses in danger.

[Oleladylib]

69. Do away with Ipods, Big screen TVs, Disposable diapers, styrofoam cups and much other

useless throw away stuff and society will live on...just fine.

[undergroundpanther]

85. Yeah

But take away America's soma, than what? Addicts looking for a fix are not very into recovery until they are forced to recover or die. And I fear that is what it will take to stop the ecocide we are collectively participating in. We consume too much, other countries breed too much. A cozy deal for those who grow wealthy from creating human suffering to profit off of, industry, church and state. Fuck them.And the people losing it all will surely take their product jonesing in the form of scapegoating us. They never bite the hand of the pusher man with the remote control.

[Warren DeMontague]

228. Things were so much better in the good old days.

[Warren DeMontague]

219. And you're connected to the internet on... what? nt

[Oleladylib]

233. I would have a life with or without the internet..

[Warren DeMontague]

237. Yes, but you wouldn't be able to suggest that torch-bearing neo-luddites smash the belongings of

other people in front of nearly as wide of an audience.

[Odin2005]

227. Touch my iPod and you die.

[Oleladylib]

234. Can't even think of 10 good songs!

[slj0101]

73. Everybody:

STOP FUCKING!!!!!!!

[undergroundpanther]

86. Fuck all you want

Get a vasectomy, tube tie or hysterectomy first. GET ON BIRTH CONTROL. Than go tell all the pushy religious right wing control freaks to FUCK OFF and DIE concerning whom you fuck(if it's all consenting adults).Demand THE pigs who refuse to fuck responsibly to cease their stupid deadly fucking bullshit games with OUR planet and turn off those baby making machines put thier bibles where the sun don't shine or suffer.

[Warren DeMontague]

102. Uh, why is it any of your business to tell other people NOT to have kids?

You don't want the religious right telling you you HAVE to. Hey- I agree.

But this stop breeding! bullshit is offensive, too.

[slj0101]

113. See my response below.

[sandboxface]

232. Fuck responsibly, AMEN! N/T

[uppityperson]

97. bullshit Fucking does not = babies.

Getting sperm together with a fertile egg makes a fertilized egg. Just stop that part from happening. KEEP FUCKING!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

[slj0101]

111. Amazing that you took me so seriously.

:D

[uppityperson]

133. Naw, I figured it was a joke but had to add in contraception stuff too.

I am soooo tired of the "if you have sex you have committed to having a child" and the whole madonna/whore thing. argh. Oh, welcome to DU too. F* on!

[originalpckelly]

154. You're still mad at me for that. I'm sorry, I'm STILL tired...

from that debate. You could probably tell how tired I was when I got all emotional and irrational, right?

:rofl: I'm sorry. It's actually pretty fun looking back the other day, and seeing how it became a totally irrational and illogical tit-for-tat discussion. I wasn't really thinking. Though I have to say, I think I have a logical argument about it, and that's why I came to that conclusion. No I cannot tell you now, I'm tired remember?

We'll have to debate this sometime. I just want to do what right by the facts of the situation.

[uppityperson]

163. not just you, but yes.

sometime when we are not both tired. And I left my ex, by the way.

[Pithlet]

89. You know what else takes up valuable resources? Computers. n/t

[Midlodemocrat]

96. Yup. And the air it takes to be so fucking sanctimonious.

:thumbsup: Pithlet.

Tell you what. All of those who resent me being a breeder; don't call for an ambulance in 20 years, because one of my kids or their friends is going to be driving it. Don't go to the pharmacy because one of my kids or their friends is going to be manning it. Don't go to the ER with your congestive heart failure and other health problems of old age because I fucking guarant damn tee that one of mine will be your cardiologist.

Just wallow in your shockingly pathetic computer driven world and leave the rest of us who actually want to have a life...alone.

[originalpckelly]

101. Thanks Midlodemocrat, a little common sense is needed. And by the way...

it's not having kids that's the problem in America, it's the way we live. Our birth rate is significantly lower than most countries. There are 155 countries with higher birth rates than ours.

[Midlodemocrat]

103. I LOVE how people always throw out that the 'children' are the problem

Not their flat screen TVs, nor their SUVs, etc. How else is society supposed to go on without the next generation?

:eyes:

Drives me ferkin' crazy.

[Warren DeMontague]

109. Ah, it's all about folks who aren't happy unless they're telling other people what to do.

Most of them are in the GOP, but we have a few on the left, too.

[Midlodemocrat]

115. Regardless of how I felt about the number of children a family

'should' have, I would NEVER presume to tell them what is right for them. I've had friends completely overwhelmed with two children and others who operate seamlessly and lovingly with six or more.

And, we NEED the next generation. We just need to teach them our ethics and values.

[Reterr]

124. Yeah talking about the environmental impact of overpopulation

is soooo right-wing.

Since you have Al Gore in your signature you might like to know how much he is attacked by the right wing -for gasp- saying that population growth is problem:

http://www.peopleforlife.org/gore2.html

You aren't going to find too many scientists or environmentalists who will deny that over population is a huge problem really.

Actually its the libertarians who believe that people should be able to do whatever they want without considering the planet and the other people who share it with us, which is what you are advocating.

Government advocacy regarding population control is much more on the left side of the spectrum than saying "I will have as big a family as I want and consume as many resources as I want-fuck you its my life and I don't care if it affects the planet."

Actually there is a funny mormon play from the sixties about evil hippies who are singing about how the world is doomed because there aren't enough resources to go around, while all the happy little mormons just wanted to play and sing and have 10+ kids.

Also, in my admittedly unscientific estimation, its the people with 3+ kids who are mostly also driving huge SUVs and consuming like nobody's business. They are not the only ones of course. But its not us childless Greenpeace activists and other anti-population groth folks who are buying that stuff. But then hey, I guess by now its a liberal ideal that we should also be able to consume "whatever we want since its my life and my business". Consideration for the planet/other people is so out of date!

[Midlodemocrat]

126. I'm sorry. Did you miss the memo about 'pro-choice'?

Choice being the operative word? :eyes:

[Reterr]

130. Did I say we should "force" anyone?

Is the government not supposed to advocate anything that is good for the planet?

How about the fact the the next generation is the one that by all scientific estimates will suffer the consequences of globalw warming and over population?
"Hey, I had my kids, but lets just screw the planet and let them figure it out-my choice!" huh?

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

132. Here's the deal. If you don't want kids, don't have them.

But don't condemn me for my choice to HAVE them. And, don't come crawling to me or my children for services needed when you are old and alone.

That is all.

[Reterr]

138. "Old and alone"

:rofl:

Yeah-all the people without kids are soooo miserable-seriously how 1-dimensional can these arguments get?

[Midlodemocrat]

142. Oh, please.

:eyes:

[Midlodemocrat]

151. Yeah, because there are no

elderly who are 'old and alone'. :eyes:

Dear God. Can you remove yourself from your own situation and see the bigger picture?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

164. Hey...

there's got to be some reason for having kids.

:rofl:

[originalpckelly]

149. Did you actually look at post #38? You should.

Overconsumption is our problem in the developed world. Overpopulation the problem in third world countries. (At least when it comes to the environment.)

[Midlodemocrat]

152. Why let facts get in the way of a good rant?

:P

[originalpckelly]

156. Oh I know. We just love to be holier-than-thou around here. I get in on the action myself.

And you know, if I'm tired and lazy feeling, I'll be just as irrational. :rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

174. "people shpuld be able to do whatever they want". Fuck, yes. And the alternative is.....?

How about an answer, instead of generalized anti-libertarian bitching? You want to be in charge of telling people how many kids they can have? How would that work, exactly?

Does that mean that overpopulation isn't a problem? No. But.. uh, birth rates are NOT a problem in Europe and the USA, where birth rates have declined significantly. Why? Because people who are free to run their own lives (including free to use birth control) educated and living in developed countries tend to control their reproduction on their own, thankyouverymuch, without would-be nanny statists coming in and making those personal decisions FOR them. Where people are free, and their heads are filled with pesky libertarian minded bullshit about being able to run their own lives.

Please show me where Al Gore has ever advocated telling Americans how many kids they should be allowed to have. I'll wait.

There is a BIG difference between saying people should have the right to choose not to have kids and choosing that FOR them. I would think even self righteous "childless greenpeace activists" could grasp that one.

How about stopping the religious right's war on CHOICE and BIRTH CONTROL (for people who WANT to use them) before grousing at the folks who choose to have kids?

Oooh, you got my number. Yep. On the subject of how individuals choose to run their own lives, I lean socially libertarian. Let me say it again, in big, nasty, blinking letters since some here consider the "l" word so filthy:

Socially LIBERTARIAN.


That doesn't mean I think corporations should be free to screw up the environment (nor does it mean that those folks who choose to drive SUVs should be entitled to a lifetime supply of government subsidized cheap gas) but it does mean that when it comes to individuals making decisions about their own bodies, their own lives, their own families, I tend to err on the side of telling authoritarian minded busybodies to fuck the hell off. I don't think the government should tell people how many kids they can have. I also don't think meat eating, alcohol, drugs, or consenting adult porn should be against the law. I hold a lot of views that some people might not consider sufficiently "progressive". Screw 'em. They're not going to win any arguments -or save the planet- by yelling at breeders and telling the American Public that they need to abandon indoor plumbing and all go live in yurts. Give me a fucking break. There is tremendous opportunity in solving our environmental problems, because the way out is the way forward. Technology and science will play BIG roles. Capitalism and free enterprise aren't going away. Who the fuck is going to want to hang out with sour faced people sitting around in burlap underwear grousing about how "we're all doomed, the best thing we can do is stop reproducing and die" (Um, have you checked out some of the other statements in this thread by the OP you're agreeing with?) much less follow them anywhere?

Oh--- and thanks for telling me what I'm advocating. Want to write my posts for me, while you're at it?

[originalpckelly]

118. It's all about "me, me, me" or "I, I, I" anymore...

I don't think people understand, that if we're all nice to each other, that means everyone will be nice to us. It's a mutually beneficial social contract.

You demonstrated some ways that being kind to others will help ourselves. That's just one of many different benefits.

The next generation will take care of us, but to get that we have to take care of them.

Some people don't care or are short-sighted. Hopefully, they'll see the benefits of having someone to love them.

[Midlodemocrat]

123. Hillary Clinton was so vilified by the RW for "It takes a Village" but she

was SO right about that. If we are to reap the benefits of the next generation, don't we have an obligation to watch out for them? Don't I have an obligation to make sure the little girl next store crosses the street safely?

That is something that is totally left out of this argument. "Breeders" are bad....blah, blah, blah.

Well, if not for *my* generation of breeded and by that I mean me...my dad and my FIL, two members of the greatest generation would have had nowhere to live.

[Reterr]

127. Al Gore is vilified by the RW for advocating population control.nt

[Midlodemocrat]

128. Al Gore has four children.

:eyes:

[Reterr]

134. Yeah and he still advocates it

Because there is increasing scientific evidence that over-population will ruin this planet.
Too ma ny people in this thread seem unable to look beyond their own lives. Its such a narrow "me-centric", narcissistic world view. No one is suggesting that the people who have already had three kids committed some heinous crime.
But in the world as it is today, we need to start advocating that people have no more than 1 or 2 kids.

Hey, I am a 28 year old woman-I would have loved to have had to kids. I probably won't-you know why? Because I don't know what kind of life they will have.
Its not about me-its about them. Its not about people who are here already. Its about future generations, who have a right to a clean, safe world, which we will deprive them of if all we think about is ourselves.

[Midlodemocrat]

139. Ya know what? That is absolute horseshit.

NONE of us has any idea what kind of life our child will have. We can't predict the future. We can't predict whether their fathers or their mothers will survive their childhood (and I have family and friends who didn't)

There is no guarantee in life, anywhere, anytime and if you think there is, you are delusional. Especially when it comes to kids.

[Reterr]

140. All scientists are delusional I have been told.

(By the AEI no less).
No doubt you think global warming is also a myth. I am tired of this.
I am happy about the ignore function.Bye now.

[Midlodemocrat]

146. Yup. Sure do.

:eyes:


Uh, welcome to DU. :eyes:

As a 'scientist', these arguments get incredibly tedious because they are populated by individuals who 'say' they would do one thing but 'I don't want to bring a child into this world, blah, blah, blah', 'global warming, blah, blah, blah', 'overpopulation, blah, blah, blah'.

All well and good. But sanctimonious bullshit none the less.

[originalpckelly]

150. No, it's a little more serious, you wouldn't even be alive.

:P

[Warren DeMontague]

176. How about accepting that people will CHOOSE for themselves?

If people CHOOSE to have kids, that's their business.

If people CHOOSE to not have kids- even if it means (heavens!) screwing for non-procreative purposes in non officially church sanctioned ways- then that's their business, too. No ifs, ands, or "they could have chosen to keep their legs crossed" buts.

Get it? It's called consistency. It's called being PRO CHOICE. :hi:

[Warren DeMontague]

104. .

:applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause::applause:

[slj0101]

116. You kinda rule.

:D

:thumbsup:

As far as I see it, choice is a two-way street. A woman has a right to choose to have zero babies, and she has a right to have a dozen.

[Midlodemocrat]

119. Why, thank you!!

:)

[Pithlet]

121. Yep.

It isn't discussion of limited resources that bug me. Obviously, there are finite resources on this planet, and these are important issues. I think everyone needs to think about it, and part of the progressive platform definitely needs to be environmental consciousness. What bugs me are the posts here who use childbearing as some yardstick to measure how liberal one is. And the ones that reek of self absorption and misanthropy. Sometimes I think they're fueled by genuine concern, and sometimes I think it's just people who basically hate kids and have preconceived notions of people who have them, and they use the convenient population problem as a cudgel to hit everyone else who made different choices over the head with. I mean, it's not as if people are ever going to just stop having kids, or just stick with one kid, so I don't see how demonizing them helps the cause one bit.

[Midlodemocrat]

125. Well, P. In all honesty, I *do* think you are more progressive than I am

because IIRC, you have two children and I have three. So I have that *extra* one that doesn't replace her father and myself. :eyes:

[Pithlet]

135. Face it. You'll never measure up.

Nothing you or your kids could ever possibly do to make the world a better place would make up that crucial difference. Do you weep for the world every day, like I do, every time you think of all those resources your kids are using? I bet not.

[Midlodemocrat]

141. Well, right now, I'm sitting in front of my computer listening to the

stereo and wishing the heat would kick on.

But, you know what P? I KNOW that one of our kids, if not yours, or mine, Big's or Skinner's or someone else's is going to make a HUGE impact on this world and that is what makes it all worth it.

I think I'll go downstairs and sit in my minivan and ponder my pathetic existence.

[Pithlet]

157. It is worth it.

All kidding aside, my 5 year old is becoming very environmentally conscience already. Sometimes I'll find myself suddenly sitting in the dark, and I have to explain that it's okay to leave the light on if a person is still in the room.

[RB TexLa]

211. You forgot to add the words "for me" you feel it's worth it for you

Many of us are not going to give up our time, income, and freedom to raise children.

[undergroundpanther]

143. Do you have ten kids midlo?

Than you ain't a breeder.Do you have kids and abandon them for someone else and do this over and over? No you don't. You ain't a breeder as far as I'm concerned..

[Midlodemocrat]

148. Maybe not YOU, personally, UP, but there are a ton of people

here who would beg to differ and I'm tired of defending myself for having children.

[undergroundpanther]

166. I'm tired of defending myself for not having kids

It goes both ways. And you are a decent parent Midlo. There are alot of parents who aren't.Parents not ready to be parents having kids. Who hurt their kids. If a person IS ready than try one first, than be responsible make sure you can handle one before you bring another here.I know this is old hat for you midlo but for so many it's not and they pretend they can handle it and when it comes they find out a little too late they can't handle it.
I have seen active addicts wax poetic about motherhood. Than they have it and they neglect it.Childrearing is Serious shit.A big commitment one you can't back out of like a bad marriage.

[Telly Savalas]

167. You have no need to defend yourself for having kids.

Anybody that's flaming you with anti-child vitriol is a moron undeserving of your time.

[Telly Savalas]

165. Childbirth keeps us all chained to this inhuman system that is killing us and the planet.

Your words.

But I guess chaining us to an inhuman system is acceptable if it's only done 3 times and not 10.

[undergroundpanther]

169. Until people

Learn how to relate together and raise kids communally and keep them safe from child abusers without money being the way to access daycare... I don't see people finding ways to get out very easily until there is a way to redo 'family structure' and ditch the 'nuclear family'.We need to get out from this system, we cannot do it all alone, but it will take risk , we need each other to do it together.It will take going out of routines and comfort zones.

[Gregorian]

93. Thank you for posting this.

You are brave. I must say I've been one of few to bring this subject up, and the criticism is overwhelming. It's a subject that gets much of my time and attention. And it's extremely important. Perhaps the single most important subject. But very offensive to most people. So I give you a hell of a lot of credit for being brave and posting this.

[originalpckelly]

99. It's just not true. America's birth rate is not a contributing factor to environmental damage...

our overconsumption high impact lifestyle is. Now in other parts of the world with birth rates much higher than ours, I'd say so.

[Gregorian]

136. Population is a direct relation to whatever is being done.

If we all rode horses, the more people would mean more horses. It's a direct relationship, except for those who are not participating, such as infants.

And since the number of people in the world living modern lifestyles is increasing in number, population is even more important to control.

Limits are not something most people care to think about.

[undergroundpanther]

173. Hi Gregorian!

You doing OK?
Here's a quote I found fitting...you might like.

“If children were brought into the world by an act of pure reason alone, would the human race continue to exist? Would a man rather have so much sympathy with the coming generation, as to spare it the burden of existence? Or at any rate not take it upon himself to impose that burden upon it in cold blood.”

~Arthur Schopenhauer (1788-1860)
Sufferings of the World 1851


Good to know I'm not the only one who feels like this.

[stubtoe]

224. Second that, Gregorian.

I don't recall ever seeing a single thread on population/consumption stay on topic. It's a very emotionally loaded issue. That said it is still the most important issue with regard to environmental problems. It deserves rational discussion and not flaming.

[Warren DeMontague]

100. I don't hector people who choose NOT to have kids

Why is it okay to hector the ones who choose to?

[mikelewis]

107. He said be "fruitful" and multiply... not just multiply.

By focusing on only the mathematics of life, you're sort of missing the point. Fruitful is a rather important part of that statement. To be fruitful... such as a fig tree...we must give back more than we get, share freely what we have with those who hunger and be a benefit to our fellow man by making them healthier and happier. To multiply without being fruitful is antithetical to God's wishes and just as in the case of the fig tree that did not bear fruit for the Lord, those who multiply without bearing fruit will be withered.

[Warren DeMontague]

108. He also said not to Eat Shellfish and that the Earth is 6,000 years old, supposedly.

If it works for you, huzzah. But please remember that lots of us use entirely different sets of directions to get around the Universe.

[JohnLocke]

186. The Bible doesn't say the Earth is 6000 years old.

Some wingnuts may believe that, but the Bible doesn't say say so and many believers are aware that there's no scriptural basis for that idea.

[Warren DeMontague]

201. Can't refute the shellfish thing, though... huh.

Anyway, religion is nothing if not open to varied interpretation. Ask a hundred people what "God" says and you'll get a hundred different answers.

You'll note my use of the word "supposedly".

I see nothing factually deficient in my previous post.

[JohnLocke]

206. Yes, the shellfish thing is true, the kashrut laws (nt).

[Jcrowley]

145. A family of ten

that lives in Appalachia is nowhere near the environmental problem as the childless jet-setters living in Beverly Hills- Scottsdale- Westwood etc.

Yes the stats you point to are very important and prove the grotesque nature of the Americansumer as well as the hideous nature of industrialism and our omnicidal model of economic growth.

And yes 6 billion is unsustainable even in a best case scenario I would say but address the deeper issues of consumption and development and you'll go further in creating ecological balance and social equity.

If one is to begin a program to curb population growth let us start with those who use the most resources.

[undergroundpanther]

190. I agree totally with you

[Beausoir]

168. Why don't Duers EVER talk about adoption??

It really irks me that so many here preach about overpopulation......but the idea of adopting a child already born is NEVER considered.

Adoption is not for everyone, but it is a WONDERFUL way to build a family.

[undergroundpanther]

172. Adoption is a great option

but sometimes adoption agences lie and you might get a kid that is more than you can handle. One that is sick, addicted or abused.

The product of irresponsible parents that should not have had kids.
I think adoption is a noble thing. It is an answer but I think for some parenting for some has EGO and narcissism with a whiff of power trip involved.

Carrying on the family name has long been an unquestioned justification for reproduction, and when a couple says they want to "have one of our own," they mean "make one that has our genes." The mindset behind this bloodline mentality is deep and strong: more of "Us" and less of "Them". Smell like racism to you? When couples try to conceive a specific gender, sexism is also in the wind. It goes beyond elitism for us to create replicas of ourselves while tens of thousands of Others' children die from lack of care each day.
http://www.vhemt.org/biobreed.htm

[Beausoir]

178. Well, that's the point of adoption! Caring for the "sick, addicted or abused" .

BTW, you have an antiquated view of adoption.

There are many perfectly healthy infants who have been placed for adoption.

I should know...I have adopted 5. Some of them have special health needs...some of them don't.

I would just LOVE to see you Zero Population Growth folks actually channel your activism into something that REALLY matters.

It's easy to preach about overpopulation...but what have YOU done to solve the problem?

[undergroundpanther]

184. I have no children

I am sterile I decided I wanted no kids when I was a kid. I got my tubes tied to make damn sure I never have kids.Later I got a hysterectomy because I was bleeding myself anemic.
I encourage people to not have kids when I can ,I defend child free people.And I have helped a few friends who were stupid get safe abortions.I have chewed out a drug addict in my old group therapy for getting pregnant while still on drugs. I did it while everyone else was doing lame congrats..She got pissed and threw a chair at me, I told her, is that what you are gonna do if your kid pisses you off throw a fucking chair at it? Get an abortion you stupid asshat ,And I proceeded to do magick against her to induce an abortion. Sure enough the next week she spontaneously aborted. Magick works dunno how but it does..Maybe it's all psychological suggestion I don't know but I am damn thankful it worked on her. She was so pathetic she was too lazy to wait two hours for an open bed for detox at the hospital when she found out she was pregnant, than the stupid asshat went home and got a rock and poisoned her baby..and she was telling us this in group. I wanted to clobber her for what she did..But I am glad that kid in her was not born.

[LeftyMom]

170. You use a lot more resources than my kid.

So mind your own business and get your sanctimony out of my uterus, thank you very much.

[Beausoir]

181. Well said. I am sick of this sanctimony. These people need to do something POSITIVE.

How many of these people have adopted children?

ZERO is my guess.

[Pithlet]

187. It is sanctimonious, and does nothing to help environment.

Let's just put aside the fact that birth rates are at or below the replacement rate in most of the western world, and go with what they're saying. Unless they're willing to seriously entertain adding birth limits to the progressive platform, it's just blather. And, if they are seriously entertaining that, then well, that's just insane, particularly from a political point of view. If they're not advocating such severe measures and are sincerely trying to convince people to make the choice not to have children/have fewer children, then the finger wagging certainly isn't going to help. Some people get so caught up in the argument that they forget they're talking about human beings and not brood mares, and start sounding like the bitter childfree movement wackos.

[undergroundpanther]

189. Ok

Call it sanctimonious all you want but I think you are too defensive to be productive talking about this issue yourself.
The reason having kids impacts so much despite our birthrate dropping is because of our culture it consumes alot.1 american kid consumes alot more resources than one kid from a 3rd world country does.
And because parents live so long there is alot of resources being used that way too, it isn't a simple "swap".

[LeftyMom]

191. Then don't have one.

And mind your own business.

[undergroundpanther]

196. I'll mind my business

But if your kids end up suffering the consquences of your choice to bring them here, when our"way of life" becomes unsustainable don't blame me or the other people you misguidedly think are controlling you(guilty?) by having an opinion different than your own and would prefer saving a planet to making another mini me..

[LeftyMom]

199. Christ, how many do you think I have?

I have one kid. He's vegan. He gets more used things than new. He sucks up a lot less resources than you do.

Go judge somebody else, because I won't stand for it.

[undergroundpanther]

197. I'll mind my business

But if your kids end up suffering the consquences of your choice to bring them here, when our"way of life" becomes unsustainable don't blame me or the other people you misguidedly think are controlling you(guilty?) by having an opinion different than your own and would prefer saving a planet that once had many other kinds of lives on it we once shared this planet with,to making another mini me..

[Pithlet]

192. Okay, so then you do see that it is the overconsumption

that is the issue. If our birthrate is declining, but the consumption is rising, then what is the real problem? Overconsumption. So why not address that? That is certainly an argument I can fully get behind. We are all guilty of overconsumption, to be sure, some much more than others, regardless of how many times we've reproduced. There are areas of the world where overpopulation is a real and immediate issue, and their lack of education about and access to birth control is a real problem. But pinning all of the ills of the world on individuals who have more children than one thinks appropriate is a useless waste of energy, and considering it's a pretty insulting thing to do, worse than useless when it comes to meaningful debate.

[undergroundpanther]

200. Overpopulation and overconsuming

go hand in hand. One does not happen without the other.
1 kid in America consumes more than 1 kid in a third world country.Yet the population problem in third world countries will get worse when thier countries get industrialized like ours.We are exporting the "american consumer lifestyle, to third world countries and the fundies are importing religious dogmatism to bring 3rd world birthrates here. Think it's scary.

[Warren DeMontague]

231. Then perhaps we should be exporting the pesky libertarian mindset that pisses so many off

because it's seemingly done a bang-up job of reducing birthrates here, and in Europe.

[NotGivingUp]

179. We're ALL facing a VERY serious problem....

and people must be willing to look at ALL of the problems and search for ALL of the solutions. This is not a time to take personal offense and bury our heads in the sand. People who will not even admit that our over-populated world is a problem are not facing reality.

[undergroundpanther]

185. And you summed it up

The whole meaning of the post. Thank you.
Funny how some posters pulled the loon card to discount what I was trying to say.

Denial is our biggest enemy in so many ways.

[Triana]

194. This is an EXCELLENT piece/blog - it ought to be..

...splattered all over billboards and in TV ads EVERYWHERE. This type of education would convince many people to either not have kids or to stop at ONE.

I've NEVER, EVER seen ANYTHING anywhere widely available and visible publicly that educates and encourages people to abstain from having kids or to limit family size - all with damn good MORAL reason - SAVING THE FREAKING PLANET we all live on. I think something like this is BADLY needed and is an excellent tool for doing just that.

[undergroundpanther]

195. That's why I put it up here.

I knew someone out there wouldn't be too damn defensive, too in denial or too hung up on being "libertarian" to use it to help crack the problem!

[Triana]

198. THANK YOU!!! (n/t)

[Warren DeMontague]

202. So, are you saying it should be translated and sent to the countries where the major population

growth problems actually are?

[Triana]

217. No translation needed....

...just get it on FauxSnooze and CNN. ;)

[G Hawes]

207. That was meant as satire, right?

[philosophie_en_rose]

205. My children will be free-range, organic children.

I will liberate the poor babes from the oppressive diapers. They will be raised by three mini-yorkies (freed from domestic servitude). It will eat berries and leaves, and its leavings will nourish the ground. I will return to the children, when they retrieve a sword from the midst of a lake.


:rofl:

[Warren DeMontague]

230. I had to read that four times before realizing it wasn't "free range organic chicken"

and I was, like, hey- I don't even wanna know. :freak: :o

[ecstatic]

208. What's the environmental cost of owning a cat?

With butterfly wings? :-)

[Squatch]

210. On a related note...just found out my wife is pregnant with #2

Woo-hoo!

She's due in August, so wish us luck.

[free_spirit82]

213. Congratulations!

I recently found out that I'm pregnant too. #3 for us though. I'm due August 25th.

Sorry to get off-topic about how evil we are for breeding, just wanted to wish you luck!

[Squatch]

214. Right back at ya.

On my way to being the average American family...married, 2 kids, a dog, etc.

[Warren DeMontague]

229. And you're not riddled with guilt and shame? That's not very progressive of you!

Seriously, congrats. :party: :woohoo: :party:

[SmokingJacket]

220. And the cost for all of US, too.

We should kill ourselves.

[Crandor]

235. So you think potential people are morally equivalent to currently living people?

I guess you must think abortion is murder then right?

[SmokingJacket]

238. Not at all.

But it is a FACT that we use up resources, just as much as any potential people.

People are going to reproduce -- and the only way to slow it down is to improve the education and economics of a populace (unless you want to take the China route or something else similarly draconian that has unintended consequences (like killing off the girl babies)).

The more educated and wealthy a country is, the fewer babies they have. Sweden has, I believe, a negative population growth. How about we focus on that, instead of telling people not to do what they are biologically designed to do?