Who do you trust, DLC apologists or Cindy Sheehan?

[yurbud]

Poll question: Who do you trust, DLC apologists or Cindy Sheehan?

I have seen a couple of threads attacking Cindy Sheehan here, and they seem to be similar in tone to the contentless crap that DLCers post, telling us to shut up, stop protesting, and trust that the corporate branch of the party will do the right thing if we sit quietly on the sidelines.

I think some of the recent noises coming out of the Democrats in Congress have been promising, and they may have been holding their fire until the session actually started, so I am optimistic.

That said, I suspect that people's sympathies here lie with more with Cindy and demanding that Democrats work to end the war as quickly as possible and not with any kind of corporatist compromise that allows the war to continue.

Rather than just saying I THINK DUers prefer Cindy over the DLCers, I'd rather see the numbers in this poll. Who do you trust?

[Selatius]

1. I don't think it's an issue of DLC vs. everyone to the left.

What's happening here is that a few party members here are upset Sheehan railed some Democrats who ostensibly may end up supporting escalating the war in Iraq.

[yurbud]

3. exactly

[entanglement]

6. Rahm Emanuel and his ilk have NO intention of ending the occupation

Their differences with the administration are of a tactical kind; they do not oppose the occupation as fundamentally unjust or immoral. Right now, they are planning a systematic betrayal of the mass opposition to the war expressed by the people in the November elections.

[cynatnite]

8. Question...

What does Rahm Emanuel have to do with the fact I didn't agree with Cindy Sheehan's actions today?

[yurbud]

40. they plan to repeat LBJ's mistake: Great Society at home, but Vietnam abroad

The good deeds at home don't cancel out the catastrophic cost and damage done elsewhere.

[midnight]

15. If they do escalate this war. That would be a miscalculated move

at this time. Most military personnel think this is wrong and so do most of the people in this country. It is not just Cindy. She is just the one with the most courage.

[yurbud]

22. what Iraqis, most of Americans, the military, and even the CIA thinks is apparently not as important

as oil company profits.

They stole it and they mean to keep it.

There have probably been fewer issues in history where politicians had a more obvious choice between serving democracy and serving the financial elite. Even in Vietnam, there was a figleaf of pretending it had something to do with communism. The propaganda here is so childish and thin, it doesn't even hide the naked greed.

I sincerely hope the Democrats are putting on a good poker face and plan to pull the rug out from under Bush, and there are some indications they will, but they are in for a nasty surprise if they take us for granted and think they can do what they want because we have no other major party to turn to.

[Tom Joad]

2. Rahm Emanuel is the real "crackpot" today. He rudely interrupted Cindy's protest.

[cynatnite]

4. I haven't seen a thread telling your or anyone else to shut up...

but there've been a lot and I might have missed a post or two.

Why not add a choice? 'I disagree with what Cindy Sheehan did today'. I have no idea how or why DLC or any of the other rhetoric that gets spouted because we dare to not blindly support her in everything she says or does got stuck in many of the discussions.

I just figured well, some just don't agree with what she did today. Simple as that. :shrug: Guess I'm pretty stupid to think it's okay to not always agree with her.

[DemBones DemBones]

5. I'm completely anti-DLC but I don't think Cindy did us any good by

disrupting. She and Code Pink need to give the Democrats a chance. It would be far better for them to demonstrate outside the White House, especially if lots of people joined them.

[pacalo]

7. For those who think Ms. Sheehan is "making the Democrats look badly"...

take a look at this: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3038029

We've heard that impeachment is off the table; now the latest is that the Democrats aren't interested in rolling back Bush's tax cuts for the top 1% to help pay for Bush's mistakes; I think Ms. Sheehan is on the right track by confronting them before the cameras about her #1 issue. They don't seem to hear us otherwise.

[cynatnite]

9. Publicly impeachment is off the table...

now, when the hearings start and real oversight begins...that's a different story. The Dems also have Ethics reform (i.e. repuke corruption), minimum wage, and a few other issues on their agenda.

They haven't even started working yet and already judgments are getting made. :shrug: I don't understand it myself.

[noamnety]

11. I would respond at length

but I've got plans tonight to go out drinking and driving.

And I don't want to hear any grief about that. Don't prejudge me, I haven't even gotten my car keys yet. Instead of getting in my way, making an obstacle of yourself, I want you to take a wait and see approach, okay?

[cynatnite]

12. No prob

Have a good time and have one for me. :hi:

[walldude]

23. Actually it's pretty simple...

and here I go again, putting people into groups ;). Generally speaking there are two kinds of people. The glass is half empty and the glass is half full. The half empty people are thrilled that the Dems won but deep down think that the Dems are going to cave in and continue to finance Bush's war. The optimists deep down, think that the Dems will do the right thing. Neither is wrong at the moment, just 2 different perspectives based on where people are coming from. That's why you are seeing so much judgemental debate since the election, until things get moving no one knows whats going to happen. Once things get rolling you'll see things cycle around again and the debate will become more civil. Until the next election that is ;)

As this relates to Cindy, I would be more inclined to be on your side of the fence if the stakes weren't so high. No one is going to die if the ethics bill, or the minimum wage is put on the backburner. Cindy is desperate to stop other mothers from having to deal with the kind of pain she is enduring, I cannot find fault with that. If what she does saves one life, or a hundred it's worth it. You gotta admit, whatever side you are on, she's got everybody talking about the war today.

[LostInAnomie]

10. Good job setting up a completely false choice.

I've seen this in a couple of other threads. Apparently, it is impossible to be against the war and think that Cindy Sheehan did the wrong thing today. This came as a surprise to be since I have always thought I was against the war, but think that what Cindy did today only further marginalized herself. Cindy did herself and her cause a huge disservice today. Her shrill protest allowed her to be further painted as "far left" and gives cover to moderates to vote against withdrawl to show that they won't be pushed around by "radicals".

[noamnety]

14. "shrill"

Oh lordy, why can't our womenfolk learn when to be seen and not heard?

And now the democrats will HAVE to continue the war! What other choice do they have, once one of our women steps out of line?

[LostInAnomie]

19. Oh lordy, when will some people learn to use a dictionary...

... to figure out what a word means.

Here, I'll help:

Shrill: 1 having a loud and high sound that is unpleasant or painful to listen to. 2 DISAPPROVING describes a way of arguing or criticizing that seems too forceful.

In neither instance is gender brought up. So save the indignation and actually make a point.

[noamnety]

21. So what's your problem with her?

That her voice is "too high"? (sounds kinda genderish to me)

Or that she's too forceful? Was MLK JR. too forceful? Think back on all the civil rights leaders you admire - isn't that part of what you admire about them, that they wouldn't back down?

[LostInAnomie]

29. I think you're confused by...

... my use of the words "her protest". I didn't mean her as a singular individual, I meant it to encompass the whole group that was yelling at Rahm. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

There's a huge difference between not backing down, and self-serving publicity stunts that only marginalize the peace movement. What she did today was make us on the left look like howling idiots that don't understand the political process. By breaking up the press conference we look like fools that can't be reasoned with and only care about getting our way, just like the media loves to portray us. In the long run it only hurts our chances because it makes those that may have supported us draw back.

There are a lot better faces for the anti-war movement than Cindy Sheehan.

[noamnety]

38. It certainly comes off as though you're talking about an individual

If you aren't specifically trying to demonize her, if you are more concerned about the tactics in general, then why not say, for example: There are a lot better faces for the anti-war movement than any of the 70 people who were demonstrating yesterday.

See how clear that is, that you mean the whole group?

And again, I'd ask which civil rights leaders - or union leaders - in our history do you respect and view as a hero/heroine? And did they confine their protests to polite meetings that didn't interfere with the political process, or were they more concerned with "getting their way"?

[yurbud]

27. no one can accuse most Democrats in Congress of arguing in a way that seems too forceful

[LostInAnomie]

30. As of now we can't accuse the Democratic congress of doing anything.

Because they haven't had the chance. We need to at least give them a little time and the benefit of the doubt for now, because they can't afford to sit on their hands politically or it will mean death for them in '08.

[yurbud]

31. I agree for this session, but their record of resistance to the GOP the last six years is something

else.

They could have at least voted no or even abstained instead of so many voting with GOP on bills that tore down our civil rights, put war criminals in the cabinet and on the bench, and when faced with a Supreme Court nominee who wouldn't even commit to belief in co-equal branches of government with checks and balances, a fundamental constitutional concept, it took massive public pressure to get them to make the token gesture of voting together against him, but they couldn't be bothered to filibuster.

I anticipate and hope for good things from this Congress, but it is based more on recent noises and tea leaves than the last six years of capitulation.

[yurbud]

18. and if we are silent, the right and sympathetic democrats will say people support war because they

don't speak up.

You set up a situation where everything ends helping continue the war.

[LostInAnomie]

20. Most people would think that an electoral shut out and the taking...

... of both houses by the Democrats shows that the people have spoken and are not silent on the issue. Maybe we should wait and see what our elected officials do before we lambaste them at their own press conferences.

[yurbud]

24. they can use that behavior as the "bad cop" that makes any of their moves look temperate by

comparison.

With activists making a lot of noise, Republicans could call Democrats extremists. With people like Cindy on the scene, Dems could say to the GOP, "Look, I'd like to do things your way, but my voters won't put up with it. If I don't move toward ending the war, Cindy Sheehan or someone like her will take my seat, and who knows what OTHER issues she'd be unreasonable on..."

[EFerrari]

28. If you think Cindy Sheehan is in the margin

you are on the wrong page.

:)

[Pastiche423]

13. Man, that is just scary

There are at least 10 DCLers on this board?

:scared:

[yurbud]

16. until you do a poll like this, you wouldn't guess there are that FEW

sometimes they make noise in excess of their numbers.

If they were sincere it would be one thing, but their constant snarky insults and refusal to provide any substantial evidence to back up their claims makes me suspect most aren't.

[Pastiche423]

26. I guess I should have added...

There are at least 10 that admitted it.

[Warren DeMontague]

17. Who are you going to vote for in 2008? Al Gore, or Russ Feingold?

Hey- limiting people's available choices is hella fun!

[yurbud]

25. that's a false analogy. It would be more like Russ Feingold or Vichy Joe Lieberman

[Warren DeMontague]

32. The point is, you presented three hand picked choices that are hardly indicative

of the range of opinions available.

Hey- I would love it if the choice in 2008 was between Gore & Feingold. But it's not.

One can be irritated with the DLC, in favor of ending the Iraq War, and still not completely enthralled by everything Cindy Sheehan has ever said or done.

[Raine]

33. So just cause

a person might think after less than 24hr the Democrats should have a day or two more before they get screamed at that makes em a DLCer. :eyes:

[cali]

34. It's called a push poll.

Reprehensible.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[yurbud]

36. or tell me how you would word the choices--or don't you like the DLC and their kind being judged the

way they continually judge Cindy and progressives, but don't seem to have to courage or desire to be as brutal chasing republicans?

[cali]

39. As I said I am a progressive or a liberal or

whatever you want to call it, and I've never shied from those labels. Of course you can't see that your "poll" was a bullying piece of crap. Y

[rinsd]

42. That's funny

"don't seem to have to courage or desire to be as brutal chasing republicans?"

I could say the same about quite a few threads bashing any of the candidates, from Hillary to Obama to Kerry to Clark.

Are you under the impression that the DLC gets a free pass at DU?

[yurbud]

41. After actually seeing the video, and in light of who the speaker was...

Cindy did exactly the right thing.

Rahm Immanuel went out of his way to chase an anti-war candidate out of her race, even though she had previously made a respectable showing against Henry Hyde in his own red district. Rahm's war-waffling replacement lost when the seat was open.

The guy is a steaming piece of shit, who is trying neuter the grassroots interest and demand for accountability, so DC can get back to doing the business of corporate America.

He did not win the last election--it was won in spite of him.

Cindy said the right things and was gracious when she took the mic. The only mistake she made was not bringing tar and feathers for Rahm.

The DLC would be more tolerable if they were more honest about their business at the expense of the rest of us agenda, and acted like they had to earn our agreement and trust instead of trying to thwart the will of the majority of Democrats and smugly ridiculing those who disagree.

[rinsd]

43. The rehashing of the Duckworth race

I just do not understand the continued attacks on Tammy Duckworth.

Cegelis ran a good primary race and lost a close race.

Duckworth lost a very close general election in an extremely red district.

[yurbud]

44. it is not an attack on Duckworth as a person but Rahm torpedoing a perfectly

viable candidate in favor of someone he perceived as more business compliant.

[otherlander]

45. You're funny.

"Trust".