There really is a christian left.

[Joe for Clark]

For these last years voices were drowned out by a "christian right" - what ever the hell that was supposed to be. And I guess it is true that this "christian right" was better at organizing PACs and fund raising - but they sure were not very good at being christian. We are not so good at forming PACs - but we understand just what christian means. And there are many of us.

That was going to catch up with them eventually. It did now.

I was born on the Ohio river. To this day, I think of myself that way - kid out of a mill town. And you know what? I like it that way. Nicest people, most decent people I ever met grew up in the river valley.

And I know, we are the ones that really did this gop machine in. We (mostly) went to sunday school and ccd and all that - some of us believed, some didn't - doesn't matter. We understood the values imparted. And we kept the values intact.

There is a christian left. Some of us aren't even christian anymore - I cannot put into words how much that word doesn't matter. The question is if you live by the values you were taught - every thing else is just a label.

Joe

[Az]

1. In the end it is about the tolerance and acceptance of others

I am an atheist. And I am more than happy to stand beside any theist as long as they feel they can stand by me. Treat me as you would have me treat you and I will do the same. Get that right and you have got humanity right.

[Joe for Clark]

3. I will stand by you any day.

Joe

[patrice]

2. Liberation Theologists get Smacked down every time they come

out in the open.

Also, Catholic Worker House.

American Friends Service Committee is very Ecumenical.

[Joe for Clark]

4. I have a lot of faith in people.

Joe

[patrice]

6. Me too!

I from a family like Pelosi's, except we're a German Irish Midwestern Conservative Catholic Labor Family.

I taught high school. I believe in Us.

That makes me a Liberal. My parents would culturally have been working class heirs to European Immigrants. They had strong attitudes about things like Family, Religion, Responsibility etc.. They were actually kind of Midwestern blue-collar Bohemians.

[Joe for Clark]

15. Hi Patrice!!

I think the difference is " You do the right thing" - means they screw you to make money.

We think do the right thing means - YOU DO THE RIGHT THING.

Honest to god, I think that is true.

Joe

[patrice]

23. Right. Their definitions of Right are Exclusive. Ours are Inclusive.

Right is THEIR Right. That which isn't Theirs isn't Right.

Right is more of Discovery process for Liberals and Progressives. It has to do with the People. That's plural and, ergo, inclusive.

[Joe for Clark]

32. I don't believe you can really be a christian without at least

being liberal. Admittedly, it can be deeper - but not less.

It is a discovery process - every step of the way.

Inclusive is totally correct here.

You ever take Comparitive Religion in school? - I recommend it. You will learn in a semister that 95% of all religions can be condensed into one work - and they agree. There is that 5% - but it is 5% afterall. What an eye opener.

I hope this is a great new year for you Patrice!!!

Joe

[patrice]

71. Well it should get to be a better year than it started out.

I and several others were "right-sized" at our software development firm which was bought a little less than a year ago.

I HATE loosing a job, especially one I Really Liked.

[patrice]

27. Hi Joe! I like Clark. Does he see thru this "Surge" gambit?

I'm very afraid someone will take the "Surge" as an opportunity to use nukes in the Region.

[Joe for Clark]

40. Don't think so.

It is over the pale to me - we have to get out now. This has been beyond repairing years ago.

I'd remember this - it is true - if a country really tried to push us, we can level them totally in 45 minutes. The other truth - our army exists to fight a war, we let them go totally offensive, there is no fight they lose. Not American kids - but -

This was never our fight. Those kids are just targets in someone elses war.

Our army are not policemen.

The surge - it already happened -

Joe

[brazos121200]

5. Ever since the '70s, when the radicals worked to take over the

Southern Baptist church, there has been a concerted effort to associate radical right wing politics with the Christian religion. Many Christians became discouraged and left the churches altogether, others simply withdrew to themselves and their personal relationship with God. The radical fundamentalists (pharisees) tried to persuade everyone that they WERE the church, that God personally spoke His will only to them and no one else. The gigantic hypocrisy and arrogance of this position is now becoming apparent to many within and without the church.

[tavalon]

11. That makes sense

I was raised in the seventies in the Southern Baptist church. There was much I didn't like but I remember how staunchly Democratic they were. My grandfather told me on the morning of my first vote not to worry about the candidates, just pull the Dem. lever. I didn't like that advice and until recently, refused to follow it but I've been astounded at how much the Southern Baptists have become Republican and thought that maybe that little church was different from the Southern Baptist Convention. But I guess it's been a migration.

[Joe for Clark]

14. Very well stated brazos -

They sure did try - maybe were even sucessful for a time.

Most of us remembered the sermons on the mount - the gross incongruity with the CR message. It was going to happen - truth wins out over BS - what were they thinking????

Good post.

Joe

[patrice]

26. And maybe there will come a Church Without Walls. A Church for Everyone.

The one Jesus and the Saints told us about.

[Joe for Clark]

43. I think there is.

I pray there is.

Joe

[zeemike]

7. You are right

And I have been both christian and atheist at different times in my life, but I never lost my values which are liberal and Christian in the real sense, that is, the values that Jesus taught.
But the failings of the Christian left (if you could call it a failing) is that they do not judge nor do they try to force there belief on others or start a TV program to get money from the misguided souls. And so we just blend into the background for better or worse.

[patrice]

28. That's because the Christian Left is Service oriented.

They serve the Poor, so there aren't very many of them and they are very busy.

I know a Catholic Worker Brother who thinks Politics is a waste of time.

[zeemike]

35. And that is a natural thing for a true Christian

And we should d not expect them to be everywhere on the tv.

And the natural state of the So Called Is materialism so it is understandable if you think about it.

And your Brother may be right, but i still believe in trying.

[patrice]

54. So do I. That's how some of us serve others.

[datadiva]

8. This website might help explain

the position of alot of Christians today, and I'm not talking about the religious right.

http://www.ncccusa.org/

Sorry about the link if it doesn't work. Not sure how to post it. At any rate, I like the site. Lots of information and differences of opinion but respect for others opinions as well.

[aquart]

9. "All the rest is commentary." -Hillel.

[Tom Joad]

10. Wasn't that what Jesus started, some group that had allegiance to

a kingdom of justice, and not the current rulers? I think he was subversive.

[Joe for Clark]

24. He was totally subversive. I think that is a reason why

I really like the teachings - If you believe he was the son of god or not - you gotta agree he was totally beyond the worlds idea of justice at the time -he was on another plane of thinking, surely.

Anyway, from a Roman perspective 2000 years ago - he was dangerous.

Joe

[patrice]

30. That's why the Church and the State killed Him.

He was Revolutionary for Love.

[Joe for Clark]

34. I think so too.

To me anyway - there is no church, no group that so screw up the gospels to me.

I don't need a church - I can read myself. I don't think a lot of organized religions, generally. They seem to be out for themselves most of the time. Doesn't change it at the core.

I think about people, the way they live their lives - what they do - how they treat people. For god's sake - that was the "way" - how you treat people. Jesus didn't say anything about churches - not at all. He said that you treat the least of your brothers how you would treat him - it was extremely radical - and I think that is the main reason I remain a christian.

I am sure he scared the hell out of the Romans. And he was "revolutionary for love" - as you say.

I respect all religions, all views. But I am a left wing christian.

We are growing every day now.

Joe

[Tom Joad]

62. I heard he rudely interrupted a nice speech by calling the nice religious leaders

and merchants con-men. Started throwing tables and chairs and ... coins all over the floor. Damn troublemaker. He should have been more patient for the leaders to work things out.

[jedr]

12. My wife is much like yourself;

A "recovering Catholic" who left the Church after years of brutality and the dogma of Catholic school in the 50"s and 60's. But scratch the surface and there is a good Catholic there. Dedicated the last 37yrs of her life to Head start and have helped more kids move out of poverty than you can count. Is she godless? No , just has seen the damage that a theocracy can do. People on the left tend to be this way and go on about their lives doing good everyday. We live in a rural town outside of Pittsburgh with about 100+ Protestant Churches, all with hate messages on their signs that tell us "Gods loves me, but hates you" We don't need a "Cristian Left"...let the hate mongers carry their crosses and we will just go about our work!

[Joe for Clark]

18. I was born in Beaver Falls.

Big Steeler fan to this day!!

I am proud to be a cafeteria catholic - It is wise to remember people never get anything 100% right, anyway.

This is true - my grand uncle was cannonized - two of my family were priests - and you can probably tell from my posts - I absolutely played 20 questions growing up.

I think I learned this. You want to call yourself christian - you live by the brother of my brother thing - and you can do that just fine without being christian too - whatever you call yourself - doesn't matter a lick - it is what you do that counts.

I like your post.

Joe

Joe

[Bjorn Against]

13. Yes there is a Christian left, but unlike the "Christian" right they believe in the Constitution

They believe that there is a seperation of church and state, and while there religion may guide them to push for help for the poor or an end to war they will never try to legislate their religion.

[Critters2]

16. Exactly. Thank you. nt

[dogday]

19. Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's

you know what I mean..... God wants no part in Government....

[lonestarnot]

25. eeeeeeewwwww baby.

You said a mouthful!

[Joe for Clark]

58. Mn -

It is SO much deeper.

Render unto Ceasar and all that... much deeper.

There is absolutely a christian left.

Joe

[Lisa]

17. the christian left can raise money, too -- only they spend it helping the poor

Rather than on lavish TV ads at election time, etc.!

In Canada, when it comes to religion, the lefties have arguably had more of an influence on our politics and culture than the right-wingers. The largest Protestant denomination up here is the United Church (including many Methodists) -- and they tend to be quite progressive and into social justice. And many leaders of the New Democratic Party, such as Tommy Douglas (Premier of Saskatchewan, who pioneered Medicare), started out as clergy.

I was actually kind of shocked, the first time I saw a "megachurch". It seemed so enormous and shiny, in comparison with many of the Canadian churches -- these generally have well-used furnishings that are several decades old, well-used if not shabby -- and their cramped basements are home to a variety of groups helping low-income people, immigrants, the environment, etc. ("Greenpeace" began in a United Church basement in Vancouver ...)

[Joe for Clark]

21. Right on!!

That whole megachurch thing is scary - I cannot fathom a true minister not taking a vow of poverty - not possible to me.

Did you read about Mr megachurch "confering" with god - I read that and got sick.

He has the latest model Mercedes Benz, a private jet and god is talking to HIM???

Oh, I don't think that is god talking to him - and that is the kindest thing I could possibly say.

Joe

[endarkenment]

20. There always has been. nt.

[GenDem]

22. Your right, Joe

I'm one of them. I am a Catholic school teacher, and a proud member of the Christian left. It hasn't been an easy road, though. I have been chastised for my bumper stickers, had abortion lit thrown in my face, and have been told by a good friend that they were praying for me. :shrug: I pull in right next to a colleague with the "Abortion stops a beating heart" bumper sticker.

This past election cycle...I made a decision to let my boss, our parish priest, know where I stand. As a Democratic county committee person, I shared with him that virtually our entire committee are practicing Catholics. Buffalo diocese here...just about everyone is Catholic. Told him that I was a social justice Dem that believed that pro-life had a broader meaning for me. This was our first face to face about this. Of course he knew where I have stood because besides my car displays I frequently write LTE's in our local paper. Surprisingly he told me that he respected my views and although he doesn't agree with the Dem's on everything, he does feel that their policies on poverty, health care, and anti-war are more aligned with the church than the rethugs. It was a good interchange.


Catholic voters came out for the Dem's 55% - 45%. This voting block was instrumental in the victory in November. It seems that many have gone back to our Democratic, pro-labor, social justice roots.
O8)

[Joe for Clark]

47. I think we came home too.

Good for you Gendem!!!

It really has been tough lately. Maybe it wasn't supposed to be easy.

I never actually met a priest that was so right wing yet - I ask around - in my parish.

I am kinda waiting for the day I meet one - in a way -

When I grew up, you said something bad about FDR or the party - totally fighting words.

Uncle John is a ST now - I think I can go off like ten tons of dynamite on the next priest in favor any war -

I will remember what you said.

There was a sermon once I walked out of. A lot of us walked out. Priest was transferred out a few weeks later.

Totally understand where you are coming from. We are the majority - we are just not very organized.

Best to you,

Joe

[GenDem]

59. Maybe we have turned the corner...

Even though it was still rough this time around, I am feeling a shift. This unmerciful war is making people think. I believe, in general, nuns are for the most part pretty liberal...at least the ones that I've met. One particular priest that I consider a friend, definitely leans left.

During the '04 election I got a phone call in the classroom from the secretary who asked me if my ears were ringing. Apparently, one of our priests, at the time, saw my Kerry bumper sticker and made a comment to her that our staff should not be openly supporting a pro-choice candidate. I told her that if it was a pro-choice issue - any open supporters of Bush should be told the same -- and I used Bush's death penalty record and an un-just war to rebut.

This past election it was "The Serious Catholic Voters Guide" that was slipped into my mailbox. It listed the non-negotiables - abortion, stem cell research, euthanasia. It left out the death penalty and un-just wars (conveniently). Come to find out serious meant a far right wing faction...there was actually other Catholic voter guides that talked about the social justice issues.

I brought this guide up to our election HQ's and was very upset about what I viewed as this right wingers personal attack on me and my political views. There was a very unassuming volunteer that came in every day to make phone calls. I liked her the minute I met her. She gave me some kind words of wisdom and we worked together several more weeks without me knowing that she had been a nun. She never told me, herself...our county chair told me one afternoon after she had left. I'll bet she put in at least 40 hours calling for Democratic candidates.

My family is Irish, Catholic JFK and FDR Democrats. In our small town our Democratic committee is the second and third generation Irish and Italian working class descendent's. Our fundraisers are held at the K of C hall. I told my boss...if the Catholic church decides to join the fundies and purge the Dem's they will loose half of their congregation.

Thank you, Joe Clark...this post has meant a lot to me, personally.

[Joe for Clark]

63. Your posts are so good GenDem -

On Christmas eve - Midnight mass - 2003 - (which I think was really at 10PM) there was a priest that gave a sermon pro "anti-terrorisim war" - Midnight mass, Christmas eve.

I was so F-ing mad - I got up and walked out in the middle of the sermon. I found out later, a lot of us did. Guy was transferred out quickly therafter.

Troy was ambushed in Sammara a couple months before - maybe some kids got in the way of a firefight -you know how that goes - and god damn the catholic church for EVER supporting a war like this.

Well - I guess they didn't. When I calmed down later and figured out what they did, I was so proud. Maybe those priests didn't want to hear the screaming from us anymore, too.

Your posts mean as much to me as maybe mine do yours - we are in this together - know that there really are a lot of us.

Joe

[GenDem]

67. I have needed to share....

and this thread and your posts, along with everyone else's input has been the conduit. The issue of faith and politics have been the source of some serious inner turmoil for me as I'm sure it is for many. Working for the church does not make it easy to just walk away, but I have thought about it. My husband wanted me to quit after the Kerry bumper sticker incident...but you know what? I was not meant to.

I always felt in my heart that I was on the correct side(if there is such a thing)...that if Jesus came back today he would hang with us and NOT with the Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell types. The Sermon on the Mount proves that to me. I read a novel last summer called "The Messiah of Morris Avenue". It's about Jesus coming back as a poor kid in the ghetto, and the fundies rejecting him because he hangs with the disadvantaged, prostitutes, homeless, gays, and drug addicts. Good read.

I've heard sermons similar to what you shared, and the hypocrisy makes me rabid. When you have personal involvement it must be maddening and hurtful to the extreme. Is Troy your son?

I would bet money that Jesus was not a neo-con.

Peace to you, Joe!

[Joe for Clark]

68. You did GREAT.

Troy is my nephew - We took custody when he was young and raised him.

I am so proud of him - not because of the army stuff - he just turned out to be such a good kid.

Don't look at him any differently than my other boys - never would. He is one of my boys. That simple.

I love him dearly - and I miss him so much. He is a real soldier boy now - and I am so sorry about it.

You can't quit you know. You are one of us - leading edge of the christian left.

God will be with you. He is now.


Joe

[patrice]

57. "Pro-Life" needs new Leadership.

I think the fraud of Pro-War Pro-Lifers has been pretty well exposed, sorry to say regarding consequences of same to half a million Iraqis and 3,000 Americans.

War IS Social Abortion.

[GenDem]

61. Totally agree, Patrice.

[candidate]

29. No, there isn't

There is no Christian right or left, there are only false Christians (pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-guns, pro-racism, anti-homosexual) and real Christians (anti-war, anti-racism, anti-guns, anti-poverty, pro-equality).

Simple as that.

[fishwax]

37. it's hardly that simple

in a political sense, though it may be that simple in a personal theological sense.

Welcome to DU, candidate :hi:

[benEzra]

74. IMHO, saying that being pro-gun-control is the "Christian" position

There is no Christian right or left, there are only false Christians (pro-war, pro-death penalty, pro-guns, pro-racism, anti-homosexual) and real Christians (anti-war, anti-racism, anti-guns, anti-poverty, pro-equality).

IMHO, saying that being pro-gun-control is the "Christian" position is no different than saying that being pro-censorship is the "Christian" position, a la Jerry Falwell or James Dobson.

Being anti-violence and being anti-gun are not synonymous.

[EFerrari]

31. Christian and Republican are mutually exclusive categories.

One philosophy is based on compassion and equality and the other is premised on bigotry and inequality.

How the hate wing has managed to bamboozle most of the country into forgetting this is a public relations feat.

[Evoman]

51. There are good christians, there are evil christians.

There are republican christians, and there are liberal christians. I really don't think liberal christians are any more "true christians" then conservative ones.

I mean...if you look through-out history, or bring some christians from the past into the present, those christians would probably feel more comfortable around fundies, then liberal believers.

I guess my concern is...if republicans aren't christians...what are they? They worship, and belief in christ, don't they?

[Joe for Clark]

66. Oh, no doubt in my mind St Augistine would freak out

at the notion of a christian right - and I use those words loosely.

The frame of mind - christian - has nothing to do at all with your church attendance -

People that measure it in such ways, inherently have this problem.

If you cannot look at the people in your life and "judge" the least among you as your brother, then you violate a precept of the faith.

Are the rebublicans christians? - they may think so - Their judgement doesn't count, however.

What did Jesus say - you should judge the tree by the fruit it bares -

Makes total sense to me.

Joe

[EFerrari]

73. Well, didn't the Nazi party privilege "christianity", too?

How could someone be a Nazi and a Christian? :shrug:

The Republic party has been the party where bigots go to spread their hatred for many, many years -- since Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act. There's no softening that.

Edit: I guess my point is, the two major parties are not even-Steven on issues of equality at all. So, if you defend the notion that "all men are created equal", you can't be Republic, much less a Christian in the sense that you espouse (much less try to live) the philosophy of that bearded liberal rabble rouser. :)

[Joe for Clark]

53. sfexpat2000,

I really think - and we better look at what really happened - in 04, 02 and 00. It was much more nefarious than you allude to - much more.

Those people managed to "sell" the concept that it was "unchristian" to go against their views - And I know just how ridiculous that sounds right now - none the less they sold it. They didn't have to succeed down the line- they had to paralize a populous into thinking it might be,

and they did pretty well. They really did take some people back - that is how they won!!!

No more -

There is a lesson here - we better learn it right now.

Joe

[EFerrari]

72. I agree, and in order to do that, they had to convince people

that their party doesn't run on hatred. What a magic trick that was.

[seabeyond]

33. if this is your words... yes, good for you. i hear ya

i have been battlin the christian right in my area a long long time. the saddest for me that they work so hard, (and they really put a lot of time in it, working hard) to find god. hear god. and all the while, he is with us, no searchin huntin praying, just here, always...

have walked away from the world christian. from all religion. my faith in christ is stronger than ever, but religion..... is no more for me.

love your post.

[Joe for Clark]

42. Hi seabeyond,

It is funny in a way that the "christian right" sort of drove us into the truth - I think it is hyterical. Inevitable, too.

They can spin as far as I care - the thing is, they were going to hit the sermons on the mount eventually. The response is interesting, I think. Predicticable - too.

Christ and church NEVER went together - I strongly believe in the christ and I don't trust churches. For good reasons, I think. And I think the differences don't even matter.

I know some pretty good people that don't believe in Jesus that don't go to church that will go on long before some that go to church every sunday.

Maybe the dumb things they said and did - maybe they did alot for us.

Anyway - best of new years to you.

Joe

[seabeyond]

45. my kids started a christian private school that turned fundie about 2002

and i spent another two years in that school that was more a family. i learned so very much. being from calif and moving to the panhandle of texas, i had never met a fundamentalist, and then to be in a school full of them was a HUGE learning experience. though it hurt my kids heart, especially the oldest and he closed the bible and refused to open because of the hypocrisy he saw, he learned a life lesson that will be with him and keep him in good grace for a long journey ahead. so ultimately, though it was a challenge, we are thankful for the experience.

i have never had qualms about a person believing or not. i am quite comfortable that the lessons are all around us to experience in so many ways. be it the bible or koran, or nature or children or animals.... it is there for us to see and learn.

i do feel this is an important journey for many in the religious community. an important lesson.

and a happy new years to you too

[Joe for Clark]

48. Everything really is a learning experience.

I can picture going from Texas to Califorina - the other way around - pretty tough.

You must have a PHD in religion right now.

Joe

[bluewave]

36. There's no Christian Right- just Christians and the Death Cult

that slavishly supports Bush. Look at Pat Robertson- calling down God's wrath on PA town, promoting assassinations of foreign leaders, predicting terror disasters. Go look at the FR board: they had to close a topic about a boy from Pakistan hanging himself because of the obscene comments. They worship death (the Second Coming) and wish it on others.

They are not Christians.

[Joe for Clark]

38. I wish I could go to the FR boards sometimes -

But I was "removed" after I tried talking about the war.

Actually - talking is being generous to them. And man, I know something about war.

I know a lot of people that call themselves christians that I think Jesus would think otherwise. And I know some that call themselves agnostics that I think are. Just a word, afterall.

Thoughtful post.

Joe

[bluewave]

39. I'm no expert on Christianity

But gloating over a 9 year-old boy's hanging must be against the teachings of Jesus. They are interested in nothing except accelerating the Apocalypse from Revelation.

They remove anyone if they don't worship Bush. I was removed thrice, once for no reason whatsoever except lack of bot-like enthusiasm for Bush. Fed by people who know what they're doing, like Gaffney et al., they become unstable.

[Joe for Clark]

41. I can't read it - I am out of FR - from what they said - permanently.

And I won't hide my identity for anyone. I won't do that.

But I will say - the taking of ANY life is not christian - in any way at all but self defense.

Man, I skipped every ccd class I could get away with - And yet I remain pretty sure, whoever wrote Revelations was on acid at the time - and I feel free to skip that book.

You can tell the tree by the fruit it bares - It should be a guiding principle to us.

Joe

[bluewave]

52. You're right. The truth still has a certain ring to it.

I never felt that ring when I read Revelation. Or much of the Old Testament. But when I read about Jesus doing things like turning the other cheek, or befriending a friendless prostitute, it moved me in a way fire and brimstone didn't. Whatever is inside humans (empathy?) that is moved by this can also sense truth.

[Joe for Clark]

55. I am so with you.

I haven't read the old testament in many years.

And I won't be reading Revelations again anytime soon.

Maybe we can all sense a truth, just as human beings.

Joe

[karlrschneider]

44. All True Christians are Liberals. Haven't you noticed?

:D

[Joe for Clark]

50. It is a fact.

[BeHereNow]

46. 1 John 3

Verse 18 "My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth"

When is the last time you witnessed a right wing x-tian meet this instruction?

Read 1 John 4 and you will know the false Christians are the wolves parading
on the world stage calling for the murder of innocents and condemning
their brothers and sisters who happen to be gay or different.
God made us all and instructed us clearly to love one another as
we have been loved.
That would be ALL of us.

The evangelicals are clearly identified in Revelations if
any one is interested in having a look.

BHN

[Joe for Clark]

49. Nice words.

They do seem all tied up in revelations - don't they??

SO amazing to me how they can so miss the mark so badly and manage to hit a wall all at the same time.

Good thing is they will hit the wall - bad thing is they have taken so many of our kids with them.

Good post though Be here Now.

All things will pass (I guess),

Joe

[Roxy66]

56. Thank you...I needed that.

:)

[Joe for Clark]

60. Oh no- you had it in you all along.

Joe

[drb]

64. Like a few of us that actually believe that stuff that guy said....

...about "...whatsoever ye do unto the least of these, you do unto me."

;)

[Joe for Clark]

65. Don't do pirates of the caribbean -

Joe

[EC]

69. What I don't get is why it even matters ...it's a free country

and we shouldn't even have to declare - claim any preferance....some of us just don't care, since we'll find out eventually anyway...but you're right about the values that are taught, although I would say that fables, etc. teach the same, without having to believe there is someone watching you to keep you in line and will punish you for bad behavior...i.e. the loving God...

[Joe for Clark]

70. EC,,

It shouldn't matter - wouldn't if others didn't make it matter - in a sick sense.

If you do not have a preference - don't claim one. I am not (we are not) evangelicals - you grew up in this country - you were exposed - faith is up to you.

But if you did grow up with the set of guidlelines - faith shouldn't really be the deciding factor, in any event.

Joe