relgion and the Founders

[ashling]

I just finished reading Moral Minority by Brooke Allen, and posted on it as an answer to a thread in another forum, but I wanted to post a thread just about this topic.

Its about the "big 6" founding fathers (Franklin, Adams, Washington, Jefferson, Madion, and Hamilton) and what they reakky felt about religion and the seperation of church and state rather than what Falwell et al. say about them. How they were really anti religion in govt. It has references to letters and documents written by these founders indicating how they really felt about religion, Deism, Unitarianism, and their efforts to protect the minority, even Mohametans (sic).


I had just finished the section on Jefferson when I read about Keith Ellison taking the oath on TJs Koran. I have been meaning to post on the topic.

Jefferson goes to great lengths to show that our common law did not derive from Christianity.

I find these passages about Madison very enlightening in light of the Koran/oath thing and the Air Force/Evangelism thing:


Oaths with a religious foundation, such as those sworn on the Bible, Madison found equally unconstitutional.

" Is not a religious test as far as it is necessary, or would operate, involved in the oath itself? If a person swearing
believes in the Supreme Being who is invoked, and in the penal consequences of offending him, either in this or a future
world or both, he will be under the same restrint from perjury as if he had previously subscribed to a test requiring
this belief. If the person in question be an unbeliever in these points and would notwithstanding take the oath, a
previous test could have no effect. He would subscribe it as he would take the oath, without any principle that could
be affected by either.

****

"The establishment of the chaplainship to Congress is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of
Constitutional principles *** The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national
religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religios worship fo the national representatives, to be performed
by Ministers of Religion, elected by a majority of them; and these aare to be paid out of the national taxes. Does
this not involve the principle of a religious worship for the Constitution as well as the representative Body, approved
by a majority, and conducted by Ministers of rligion paid by the entire nation?

*****

"Better to diarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and the navy, than to erect them into
a political authority in matters of religion *** Look 'thro the armies & navies of the world, and say whether in the
appointment of ministers of religion, the spiritual interest of the flocks or temporal interest of the Shepherds, be most
in view: whether here, as elsewhere the political care of religion is not a nominal more than a real aid."




(pages 123 - 117)

This was a really good book. I recommend it highly.

[CJCRANE]

1. Weren't most of the Founding Fathers Deists?

i.e. they didn't necessarily believe in the divinity of Jesus/or traditional Christian teachings?

[MannyGoldstein]

2. Yes. I Believe All of the 'Front Line' Were

Even Washington apparently refused to take communion, although he kept up appearences by showing up at church.

[ashling]

3. He would leave before Communion

and when a Minister tried to make an issue of it he just stopped going on Communion Sunday.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. John Adams was Unitarian n/t

[ashling]

5. Jefferson considered himself a Deist

but was variously termeillegal codemakeRemote('duboard.php?az=html_table')
HTML lookup tabled an atheist in his own time. In fact Hamilton hypocritically campaigned for Adams for president using this issue, announcing the Federalist party line:

THE GRAND QUESTION STATED
***
GOD -- AND A RELIGIOUS PRESIDENT;
or impiously declare for
Jefferson -- and no god !!!

Jefferson hated clergy, denied the divinity of Jesus, :

"The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the
supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin will be classed
with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter"

In later life he identified himself as a Unitarian.

[CJCRANE]

7. My confession...

I'm British (and live in Britain)* and we don't have any Unitarian movement here that I'm aware of (mostly Church of England, Catholics, Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs).

How prevalent is it in the US?

*although I've been a DUer since just after 9/11 and fairly informed on American politics (hence I try to blend in).

[bridgit]

6. Religion and the American Revolution...

http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/religion/religion.html

[pocoloco]

8. Don't forget Paine and the flack he took over

"Age of Reason" by the xtians!