Abolish all labor laws. Let labor and management duke it out, mano e mano

[mdmc]

Poll question: Abolish all labor laws. Let labor and management duke it out, mano e mano

America has lost the right to collective bargain, to unionize our workplaces. The current labor laws are a corporate wet dream, and do nothing to protect our working class.

I support abolishing all the labor laws in America. I advocate allowing labor and management to duke it out, mano e mano.

How do you feel about this idea?

[Deep13]

1. all of 'em

plus more

[TechBear_Seattle]

2. Why must those who differ from your opnion justify themselves?

Why not ask that those who share your view to justify themselves as well? Starting with you, perhaps.... :hi:

[mdmc]

5. I am interested in hearing what laws DU'ers feel are working

I feel that they all must go. I've done some research on this, and I think that the NLRB (National Labor Review Board) is essentially unable to ever side with working people.

IMHO, We would be better off with the ability to strike - we have no real protection under our labor laws, imho.

My opinion, (imho) is justified by the poor working conditions of America's working class.

[Kelly Rupert]

7. So you think that OSHA protections and minimum wage are outdated,

and the average service-industry would do better if he negotiated his salary and working conditions? I think you take too much for granted.

[mdmc]

9. OSHA is good

And a working wage would be awesome.

I do support a minimum wage.

Again, just look at how corporations get around these two laws - (they hire illegals, no safety, no minimum wage) -


OSHA and the minimum wage are two good labor laws that are worth keeping. Good job!:toast::yourock:

[stonecoldsober]

14. Strike - Lockout - Hire new employees

With no laws protecting labor, this would be the end result of most strikes.

[mdmc]

16. really no difference for most working people in America today

correct?


Most employees have no union, no strike, no lockout, no new hires...

[stonecoldsober]

17. I think a large portion of federal and state workers are unionized

as well as construction workers, plumbers, electricians, dock workers, police and firemen... I could go on and on.

[mdmc]

19. yes, and they are getting their share

as an outsourced govt worker, I know how great it is to be represented by a union. Most workers are just like me, without the ability to collectively bargain.

Even within the groups that you list, we are starting to see "right to work" bullshit that makes it hard for cops or firemen to organize.

Please don't think for one minute that America is gaining organized union members; we are losing membership everyday.

[Kelly Rupert]

3. Let's hear your reasoning first,

as the only people I've ever heard advocating your plan are free-market libertarians.

[mrcheerful]

4. Which when Hoover allowed it caused the stock market crash of 1929.

[mdmc]

6. would it surprise you that my poll question is a quote from the

former President of the AFL-CIO?

My reasoning is simple - American workers have no protection from their employers. Management can do what it wants, and the workers have no recourse under the current labor laws.

[mdmc]

65. kick

:kick:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

8. You mean literally duke it out?

i.e. class war?

[mdmc]

11. sir

yes sir
:patriot:

workers vs. management

for true.

[me b zola]

38. But it took over 100 years of violence to eventually get ANY labor laws

Why do we want to throw away any shed of labor laws that still exists? We need to return to the New Deal and the labor laws that created a healthy middle class.

I urge you to go back to the late 1700's and begin reading up on the labor movement. It was a very long & bloody struggle to gain workers rights. If people today did what they did back in the day they would be called terrorists.

[mdmc]

46. I agree . We need to return to the New Deal

an enforceable New Deal.

[I_Will]

10. We did duke it out...

Slavery was abolished. Child labor was limited. Collective bargaining came into being.

Is the idea that we should just rewind history and do it all over again?

[mdmc]

15. So we now currently have the right to collective bargain

Organizers can't be legally fired for organizing. But look through the NLRB volumes of hearings - it happens all the time - slap on the wrist.

The "labor" laws abolishing slavery are good - keep them (although I think they were civil rights laws, close enough)

The "labor" laws regulating child labor are good - keep them.

There are no laws that truly protect workers right to bargain collectively.

So you found two laws that we should keep... pretty good, imho. :toast::yourock:

[hfojvt]

12. FLSA

Which I believe established the 40 hour workweek. Widely violated perhaps, by splitting shifts and putting people on salary or commission, but also widely upheld. Also widely ignored by Americans who use their free time to get another job.

I feel it is a really stupid idea and you have not put enough thought or effort into your thesis to warrant a deeper response.

[mdmc]

18. I understand your feelings that this is a stupid idea

It is actually a quote from a former president of the AFL-CIO. The idea is that the labor laws have been reduced to nothing; management can "widely violate" the laws, without recourse.

FLSA is a great law, if enforced. Without enforcement, it is worthless.

This idea is very hard for those with union representation to fathom, but most of America is not represented.

[hfojvt]

27. not enough is not the same as nothing

not even close, and lack of enforcement does not mean the laws are bad.

I have never had union representation, even when I worked in a union factory (not because I refused it, but because it was not available to either the janitor working for a service company or as a temp).

[mdmc]

29. thanks for the reply

I too, am very pro union. The laws, as written, are great. However, unless a law is enforceable, it is without worth.

As long as Corps can disobey the law without true consequence, we are without protection.

So, if the written laws are unenforcable, then we need additional recourse.

What I feel we need it a constitutional right to unionize.

Peace and low stress to you. Keep working hard. :patriot:

[LSK]

13. why bother having govt???

:shrug:

[mdmc]

21. the Govt should enforce the law

since the current govt does not do this (the NLRB), the laws have no "teeth".

If the laws worked (read - if the laws were enforced), we would have a great working class in America.

[LSK]

26. so fix the enforcement part

Dont kill off the laws.

[mdmc]

31. Actually, I think that workers would have a better chance on their own

The laws are great - well written - helpful. The Corporations have created the method of enforcement that make the laws useless.

Either the corporations need to agree to and allow the enforcement of the laws, or the workers need the ability to take their destiny into their own hands.

[ThomWV]

20. How Do You Feel About Davis-Bacon?

Labor law ....

[mdmc]

22. I really don't know a thing about that law

but I will take a gander via google. Is it worth anything? Sometimes a law is great, but the way it is enforced makes it piss poor.

[mdmc]

24. Looked it up a little

It seems protectionist - as a liberal I love it!

What I don't dig is how w. is getting around it with katrina et all...

Thanks for another good law, that really needs to be protected:toast::yourock:

[ThomWV]

44. One Of The Very First Things He Did After Katrina Was Cancel Davis Bacon

That SOB ....

[On the Road]

23. Would You Say:

-Tax evasion is not working, so let's abolish all tax law?
-Enforecement of violent crimes is not working, so let's abolish all laws outlawing violent crime?

[mdmc]

28. nope as a liberal I am saying that the tax laws and crime laws work

The labor law has been gutted, and needs to be reinvented. If the govt. made it a policy that the criminal laws and tax laws could not be used, then I would advocate getting rid of them (currently, only the wealthy are above the law *ojsimpson**enron*). The laws that you cite work fine for most people.

[On the Road]

40. I Do Not Understand What Benefits You Anticipate From This

other than those George Will writes about. It sounds as if you don't support it at all, but just want to make a point of some kind.

[mdmc]

48. No, what I'm saying is that working people could get a better deal

if we started over again.

The unions have been destroyed, and replaced with a class of working poor people. The unions have no interest in raising the lot of the working poor. The corporations have no interest in raising the lot of the working poor.

Only the working poor have an interest in raising their lot.

Once the workers rise, we all win.

[mondo joe]

42. Then you have a simple course of action: support the campaigns

of candidates who think like you.

[mdmc]

56. point taken

well met.

back to school for mdmc...

[porphyrian]

25. Is it that labor laws have failed or our judicial system in general?

As long as justice can be bought, won't it always be rewarded to the richest side in a conflict (which almost always happens to be the management)?

[mdmc]

33. well, the laws are enforced through the judicial system

but the laws also "tie the hands" (or the fists) of the working class.

Your reply is really what I am trying to say - we need to fix "the fix".

The wealthy always get theirs. Somehow, the playing field needs to be leveled.

[porphyrian]

41. We need to stop allowing our goverment to be bought.

Lobbyists should not be able to buy legislation, and trials should not go to the most expensive legal team. The only hope we have for bringing integrity to our government is to stop its bias towards those with the biggest wad of cash.

[mdmc]

49. how?

You are correct, but I can't think of how we reduce the power of cash...

[porphyrian]

55. First, we, the people, must agree to this change.

Then, our elected representatives must do the job of making new laws and/or changing laws that allow abuse of power. To ensure this, the campaign process and lobbying must be reformed to disallow the "buying" of lawmakers. Congress is there to represent all voters, not just those who contribute the most money. Next, the laws regarding corporate personhood must be reformed. Either a corporation is a thing which deserves no individual rights or it must be held as accountable as any individual for its actions - as it stands, corporations enjoy the benefits of citizenship without the responsibility and accountability. Once this is done, we must work to remove all bias from our justice system, as there is no justice if it is arbitrarily or unfairly applied.

Edit: clarity

[mdmc]

57. that is as good of a plan as I've seen

I guess that I am not as down with abolishing all the laws as I am at getting people to agree to this change!

Working people are hurting and something needs to be done about it.

AWAKE!

:toast:

[porphyrian]

59. Sometimes it takes a good kick in the ass...

;)

[mdmc]

61. for true

:toast:

[Yavin4]

30. That's The Fastest Path To Socialism

THE fatest path to socialism is through libertarianism. Why? Libertarian philosophy would concentrate power and wealth into a few hands. Eventually, the masses will use their only weapon, their numbers to take back that power and wealth.

The reason why Russia went communist is because the ruling monarchy of Russia refused to have a constitutional government. They wanted ALL of the power to themselves, and they fired upon a peaceful demonstration.

[mdmc]

35. didn't think along those terms

thanks for your post. Peace and low stress...

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. Your premise is faulty:

America has lost the right to collective bargain, to unionize our workplaces.

Janitors at the University of Miami formed a union just last year:

http://www.yeswecane.org/index.asp?Type=B_BASIC&SEC={034B94D6-F564-4F93-909B-B774A54F1102}&DE={FC3F0E26-27BD-4803-98C9-D36DA6A47305}

[mdmc]

34. That is good news! Thank you for sharing this info...

But think of how many janitors in America are without representation.

Thank you for the link...

I don't know anything about U of M - would it surprise you to find out that U of M was fined for breaking the law? Would it surprise you that organizers were fired from U of M during this organization effort? (I don't know if this happened, but these are the problems that I am addressing within this OP).

Peace and low stress.

[The2ndWheel]

36. How about we scale everything down

get rid of these mass consumed, mass produced products, and get something a little different each time? Instead of getting rid of people with automation, lets get rid of CEO's by getting rid of the process by which they accumulate vast fortunes?

Never going to happen, but while we're trying to change the reality, might as well try starting over.

[mdmc]

37. power to the people, man.

Might work:shrug:

[LostInAnomie]

39. I don't see it working out how you think it will.

Back when the labor movement was churning the economic and transportation systems were greatly different than they are today. Before, countries had to deal with trade barriers, and tariffs, and slow transportation made foreign imports costly. Globalization has changed how countries deal economically with each other and improved transportation has made it more feasible to just out-source when the cost of labor cuts into profits.

The minute we would start organizing, after the immediate slashing of our wages, companies would start outsourcing even more heavily. Globalization has turned labor into a race to the bottom, and there is almost nothing we can do to change it. As long as there are people to exploit and transportation to make it feasible to outsource, the working man will always lose out.

[mdmc]

51. see, it is okay to lose out

and you are right, workers would lose out, at first.

But, Walmart cannot outsource all of its Associates( :eyes: ) - someone has to sell all that third world shit.

Who will be left to buy all of that outsourced shit? The only people that would be able to are those unionized professionals (teachers, doctors, nurses) and union workers (janitors, truck drivers).

The thing is - the corporations need labor, and vice versa. There is a give and a take. It is our time to take.

Once we are in this fight (this fight to end poverty), we are in for a pound. In for a penny, in for a pound.

If the working man always loses out, then it is time to lose out.

Peace and low stress...

[Lilith Velkor]

43. Anyone who seriously supports this idea should be beaten to a pulp

Since that's what they are wishing on the working class, they should by all means go first. :mad:

[mdmc]

52. this is the reality of much of the working class

and it needs to change ASAP.

How do we change it? Our current labor laws have absolutely no teeth. That is something to be :mad: about.

[Lilith Velkor]

63. Management would rather have no labor laws at all

That is the change you are advocating.

Please refrain from trying to bullshit me about how you care about the plight of the working class. Your words have made it abundantly clear which side you are on.

[OnionPatch]

45. As if

a low-wage, low-skilled employee could ever hope in his wildest dreams to have enough power to tackle the corporations. :eyes: Is this a trick question?

[mdmc]

53. one man vs. the machine always loses

we need to legalize and protect union organization. Current labor law does not do this. The trick question is Is this the best that America can do for the working poor?

[ck4829]

47. NO!!! Management has the Bush Administration on it's side

Labor will lose and will set all back about 200 years.

[mdmc]

54. perhaps some other party could champion the working poor

and stand up to management and the pukes!

[manic expression]

50. Abolish private property

That solves the problem at its source.

:toast:

[sweetheart]

58. I'm for destroying the dollar

I've weighed this my whole life, and i feel the only solution for peaceful
and christian peoples the world over, is to divest of the dollar and the US dollar
economy. It is become criminal, and shifting all investments and approaches out,
including new value creation activities, is the only way to teach the beast self
control without nuclear weapons.

I'm a loyal opposition american. I would rather not see the country nuked,
and with a dollar slide to 1/10th its current value, the militarist beast will
be tamed, bankrupt and need to learn a new way in humility.

However painful the consequences, i would wish them 1000 times over radaition clouds.

Would the planet be not better off with a bankrupt petro-empire ?

[mdmc]

60. now thats just crazy

:D

[ourbluenation]

62. NO WAY. Duke it out mano e mano at the mercy of right wing courts?

The working folks will lose. They already are. Why make it worse.

[mdmc]

64. current day

NEEDS to change.