41% of the undergraduate population at Cal-Berkley is Asian

[AngryAmish]

"I ask Mr. Hu what it’s like to be on a campus that is overwhelmingly Asian — what it’s like to be of the demographic moment. This fall and last, the number of Asian freshmen at Berkeley has been at a record high, about 46 percent. The overall undergraduate population is 41 percent Asian. On this golden campus, where a creek runs through a redwood grove, there are residence halls with Asian themes; good dim sum is never more than a five-minute walk away; heaping, spicy bowls of pho are served up in the Bear’s Lair cafeteria; and numerous social clubs are linked by common ancestry to countries far across the Pacific.

Mr. Hu shrugs, saying there is a fair amount of “selective self-racial segregation,” which is not unusual at a university this size: about 24,000 undergraduates. “The different ethnic groups don’t really interact that much,” he says. “There’s definitely a sense of sticking with your community.” But, he quickly adds, “People of my generation don’t look at race as that big of a deal. People here, the freshmen and sophomores, they’re pretty much like your average American teenagers.”"
snip
"In California, the rise of the Asian campus, of the strict meritocracy, has come at the expense of historically underrepresented blacks and Hispanics. This year, in a class of 4809, there are only 100 black freshmen at the University of California at Los Angeles — the lowest number in 33 years. At Berkeley, 3.6 percent of freshmen are black, barely half the statewide proportion. (In 1997, just before the full force of Proposition 209 went into effect, the proportion of black freshmen matched the state population, 7 percent.) The percentage of Hispanic freshmen at Berkeley (11 percent) is not even a third of the state proportion (35 percent). White freshmen (29 percent) are also below the state average (44 percent)."

Do you think that the dominent American culture is redy for having a majority minority (whatever that is called) taking the top spots at a university? Does the faculty reflect the student makeup and what steps should be taken if they don't?

[stonecoldsober]

1. Better get this out to Hannity ASAP!

[JAbuchan08]

26. That was unnecessary

If you want to be simplistic about it; your position shows knee-jerk opposition to affirmative-action, which would put YOU in the Hannity camp. But let's not be simplistic about it.

[stonecoldsober]

46. You can't understand sarcasm? That is simplistic.

[JAbuchan08]

88. Sorry, but sarcasm is best understood by me vocally

sometimes when it comes in text form I don't catch it. :blush: Unless it's got like fifty smilies after it.

[stonecoldsober]

95. Well, I'm sorry I forgot to use the

:sarcasm:

[aein]

2. where's the controversy?

[aquart]

3. Asian parents keep their children in school 24/7.

If you live in an asian neighborhood, one of the first things you notice is afterschool schools. The children never have free time and nobody worries about their self-esteem. The children worry about meeting the standards their parents have set.

[aein]

4. stereotype?

I'm an AA who went into a non-math/science discipline. People are very skeptical though of an Asian in any field that requires a mastery of language. The stereotype is that we're all soulless robots who do nothing but study, and whose only concerns are temporal and material. That's not true. Take me, for example, I'm a total slacker, who was always disappointing his parents.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. I Forgot The Name Of The Movie

But there was this hilarious movie about Asian teenagers that satirized their role as the "perfect minority"...

But within all stereotypes there is a kernel of truth. Most Asian Americans put a high premium on education...

[ellisonz]

32. It was a very well done movie (if not exaggerated):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Luck_Tomorrow

I recommend it.

:hi:

[fujiyama]

34. I saw that a while back

Sort of a disturbing but interesting movie. Oddly enough, I think it was an MTV film. Usually they suck but this was an exception.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

41. Wasn't Crash A MTV Film?

I just saw Freedom Writers, another MTV film...


Both good...


And Coach Carter...


Hustle N Flow

[fujiyama]

44. Maybe...

they've been cranking out some decent movies over the last few years, rather than the standard teen movie crap.

[AngryAmish]

76. Napolean Dynamite

"I caught you a delicious bass."

[XemaSab]

30. I grew up around Asians and I have many Asian friends

and the premium put on education and studying is WAY higher than it is in any other ethnic group in California. It's not a stereotype that applies to ALL Asians, but even if it applies to MANY Asians it's enough to get them into Berkeley, UCLA, and the other top schools at a high rate.

My friend Jenn is a disappointment to her parents because she's not a doctor or a lawyer, "only" a planner siting power plants and making 60 grand a year. :shrug:

[northzax]

73. wait a minute

what about the Jews, huh? I thought they were the work hard and study group.

[NewJeffCT]

74. I heard Dr. Henry Lee speak a few years back...

He was at a Chinese New Year event here in CT... Lee is the famous forensics expert who testified in the OJ Simpson trial (and other trials as well)

But, Lee said that Chinese are not well represented in political circles - and other public service jobs - because they are raised to go into fields where they can make a lot of money, like medicine and engineering. He had hoped that it would change as Chinese became more succesful and more integrated into the society (and, he gave a few examples of Chinese in public service fields)

But, his point was that Chinese see being successful in medicine or in engineering (and other high paying fields) is their way of becoming accepted in society.

[Dorian Gray]

78. Hell, I taught in a high school in Hong Kong...

It was a private school, and about half the students had a high premium on education. The other half? Not so much. Stereotypes may have an element of truth to them, but they're not universally true.

[TNDemo]

5. Far higher percentage in the college of engineering.

My son graduated last year and we had to walk for a mile or two down the line of parents waiting to get in to graduation. It was probably 95% Asian. There was an occasional Indian, black or white but not many.

[NewJeffCT]

77. Indians are Asian

Unless you were talking about native Americans?

[fhqwhgads]

79. apparently we're not...

...i always thought i was "asian-american" since i'm of indian descent. but when people say "asian," they mean east and southeast asian. people whose roots are in india, pakistan, bangladesh, etc. aren't considered part of that group.

so am i not supposed to check off "asian" when some form asks me for my race?

meh, we're all supposedly computer engineers or cabbies studying computer engineering anyway.

[TNDemo]

86. Yes, you're right.

I think generally people think of east and southeast Asia as Asian. Not really thought of what to call the folks of India and Pakistan. I always say Asian Indian to distinguish it from Native American and that was what I was talking about. I guess the Asian percentage of students was even higher.

[burythehatchet]

87. Indians are technically caucasians

but I never tell anyone I'm white...too embarassing.

[SmokingJacket]

6. Guess my white kids will have to work a little harder to keep up.

Raising the bar is, I think, a good thing.

I *am* worried about the dropping black enrollment, though. We seem to be losing our resolve to make sure that black children receive as good an education as anyone else -- and de facto school segregation is increasing, too...

[HowHasItComeToThis]

7. SAD YOU FEEL SO MUCH FEAR

:hide: :rant: I AM A MAYFLOWER DESCENDANT AND MY WIFE IS CHINESE.
WE HAVE AN EIGHT YEAR OLD DAUGHTER AND I HOPE SHE GOES TO BERKELEY WHERE I WENT.

MY DAUGHTER WANTS TO LEARN, DO YOU?

[AngryAmish]

16. Dude, easy on the yelling

Not that this matters but when I have kids they also will partly be asian. I make no comments but wish to see how others feel about this.

[pampango]

17. My son, who is 18, is half-Asian and waiting to hear on his

college applications (Berkeley is one of them.) As I say in post #14 down thread, I certainly do not want him to be discriminated against because he is half-Asian, but I do see the desirability of having a campus that reflects the greater society.

While my son has worked hard at succeeding in his academic studies, I realize that a campus "meritocracy" that was largely Asian and/or white with limited numbers of blacks and Hispanics would offend my sensibilities as much as would corporate managements or government offices that did not have a representative number of blacks and Hispanics.

I agree with you that penalizing kids that work hard to benefit those that may not put as much effort into their studies (for any number of reasons - some of which may be outside of their control) rubs me the wrong way, but my understanding of affirmative action is that it exists to eventually eliminate the root causes of "cultures of poverty" not as permanent penalties applied to kids who did nothing wrong themselves.

[XemaSab]

31. The challenge of affirmative action as a means to eliminate poverty

is that many Asian kids are a generation or two from stepping off the boat. If you looked at socioeconomics, they're mostly not rich.

[pampango]

68. And yet the University of Michigan discriminates against Asians,

or perhaps better said it discriminates for Blacks and Hispanics, in this study from 2005.

http://www.ceousa.org/pdfs/umich%20press%20release.pdf

One interesting finding in it was that if an applicant had a SAT score of 1240 and a high school GPA of 3.2 his/her odds of being admitted to UofM was 90% for Blacks and Hispanics and 10% for Asians and whites. While it makes sense to me to promote the numbers of minorities in our universities through affirmative action, requiring higher admissions standards from some minorities over others seems misguided.

(As an aside, my wife is from the Philippines. Our 18 year old son is waiting to hear on his admission to several universities, some in the UC system. I have jokingly told her that we should list our son as half-Hispanic, rather than half-Asian, since the Philippines was colonized by Spain, just as was most of Central and South America. Therefore, Filipinos should be considered as Hispanics, not Asians. It certainly would make our son's grades and SAT scores look a lot better to admissions officers.)

[northzax]

75. they don't have caps lock keys at Cal?

I guess it's true, place is no UCLA.

[DaveJ]

8. I'm just not a fan of segregation, self imposed or not.

A lot of people disagree with me on this, but I don't like anything that's predominantly one 'race' including schools or neighborhoods. A lot of schools lack diversity. Maybe there are some short term advantages to sharing the same culture but it also makes the rest feel isolated.

[Mikey929]

13. Not segregation

It's called those with the best grades get into school. It's not segregation at all.

[DaveJ]

19. The article mentions “selective self-racial segregation”

That's why I used the term. I just call it lack of diversity. I know a lot of people like to be around those of their own race but I never felt the need for it myself.

[fujiyama]

35. There are two seperate issues with regards to diversity

It's obvious that Asian students are doing well in large numbers to get into top schools. On the larger scale, the university as a whole has a greater number of Asians.

But at the same time, EVERY race is self segregating. This isn't just an Asian thing. It's also a black, white, Indian, and Hispanic thing. I went to a fairly diverse urban university, and while my program (engineering) did have a number of blacks, the classes were largely dominated by Indians, and white people. In the libraries, you noticed what the article says - that each race was sticking with each other.

Even though a lot of progress has been made in terms of race relations, self segregation is an issue in education from early on. A family friend noticed this when she chaperoned a field trip for elementary school kids. Granted, maybe the situation is different in urban areas, but the majority of suburbs in the US have self segregated schools.

[JAbuchan08]

27. The kids with the best grades are getting into the school

and then segregating themselves away from the rest of the student population. I don't think this is healthy either. America was founded on the idea that all men are equal. I think that is a beautiful idea that has led to the opening of our borders to people of all creeds and colors. I am certainly not an isolationist or a nativist by any stretch of the imagination, nor do I believe that people should give up their culture to "assimilate" with the rest of us. America can only benefit from increased diversity in culture and language, but only if that diversity is represented in a wider culture that makes us a cohesive whole. That is why I think self-segregation is so wrongheaded. We live in a country whose guarantee of equality has allowed so many different types of people to come together and share ideas, but instead of embracing that uniqueness of American culture we turn our backs on it.

[fujiyama]

36. It's not just Asians doing this.

Blacks, Hispanics, and whites are self segregating too.

[NewJeffCT]

67. That is true

I remember I went to a regional campus of my state university for a year and there were two rooms with tables for the large on-campus cafeteria... the African-American students traditionally sat together in the same corner of one of the rooms. The Indian students often sat together as well. (It was a long time ago, but I don't remember enough Chinese & other East Asians there...)

While it is in-part self-segregation, I think some of it is due to how people grew up over the years - people would hang out with friends they knew from high school and the cycle just kept repeating itself and not many reached outside of their own groups.

It's kind of too bad, though. Because I don't recall a lot of rejection when people did venture outside of their social circles.

[JAbuchan08]

89. I agree with that

having said that. It is incumbent upon the majority to make minorities feel welcome. That applies to any group dynamic. I'm not just picking on Asians. Really I'm not just picking on Americans. I'm simply saying that we should ALL know better.

[Bill McBlueState]

80. but you don't just want the ones with the best grades

A college would be stagnant if the student body were comprised only of those with top grades in high school. It would be a bunch of really smart kids without much in the way of personality. You need a mix of academic overachievers AND students who bring other things to the table: leadership, creativity, humor, economic and racial diversity...

[Yavin4]

9. There Are Other Factors As Well

High performing African American students have a multitude of choices for college and would probably attend more elite universities on the East Coast. An African American student who could get into UCLA or Berkeley would probably also get into an Ivy League school and prefer to go there.

Moreover, a greater majority of college-bound African American students would prefer to go to an historically African American university like Howard or Spellman for the social interaction as well as the education.

The larger problem for California's education system, as well as America's educational system, is that African-American and Hispanic students on the K-12 level have greater social and educational needs than other groups have. If African-American and Hispanic students are underperforming, then measures need to be taken to improve their performance, including more spending. However, we live in a throw away society, wherein if you are not scoring 1600 on your SATs or can dunk a basketball, you are written off for life or sent to the military.

[DaveJ]

11. 'Throw Away Society'

Sad but true. I will remember that one.

[JAbuchan08]

29. I was watching a Sean Hannity

The woman (who handled herself quite well) he was speaking to made the connection between low teacher pay and low school performance, and why wouldn't a strident capitalist like Hannity endorse paying more for teachers. He basically says, "well that's why we think there should be vouchers etc. and the good schools and teachers succeed" what he leaves out is the fact that the "best" schools are going to be the schools with the most financial resources and that all the rest are going to fail.
The long and short of it is; Hannity and his like do not CARE about the lives of people who could make it with just a little wise investment, that's a price that they're not willing to pay.

[musiclawyer]

10. Parental expectation is the key

It's been shown to be "relatively" far more important than any other criteria in terms of achievment. I can't link you to studies that show this, but I know some smart people on this board can. Black and latino kids are not less intelligent. But there are some cultural things going on in th household, in the neighborhood that are at cross purposes with academic success. So yeah, making sure the minority schools have good teachers and early head start, goood special ed, ample physical resources. living wage, affordable and subsidized child care etc are all important (the macro issue) But unless the black and latino communities start looking hard at what's going on inside the home and whose running those households , and what examples and expectations are established (the micro issue), addressing the macro issue alone won't solve the problem. Ever.

[Porcupine]

18. I would call it parental obsession.

The insane levels of academic focus that kids have to go through to get into Berkeley or Stanford are just not worth it. That means the whole family focuses on juniors homework every night then the extra study, music language and whatever other schemes parents work out to make their kid stand out above all the other kids with 4.5 GPA's.

I have a kid who will go to high school in the fall and I'm just not willing to do it. I know too many millionaires who went to "state." If you want to look at the level of insanity these schools breed just look at "The Apprentice" on tv. Those people are nuts.

If we dont' break the obsession with material wealth we are going down as a race; THIS CENTURY.

[pampango]

22. Immigrants have traditionally valued education more than

nonimmigrants. Most Asian-Americans are recent immigrants or their parents were. My wife is Asian (I'm white). Our 18 year old son has had the best (or worst) of both worlds. He does have a 4.5 gpa, but is also an all-star baseball players and does most of the stuff that his more "traditional" classmates do, other than spend countless hours playing video games.

My wife and I have had many discussions and arrived at many compromises involving her "obsessions" and my "laid back attitude", but I must admit that too many of our son's classmates (it's a public high school in a small Midwestern town) could use a little more "obsession" in their lives. Most are very capable people but have made little progress in harnessing their potentials whether they be academic, artistic, or whatever, other than sports (they harness that potential quite a bit.)

[Bill McBlueState]

82. good call on the midwestern laid-back attitude

I grew up in Ohio, and I often tell people that I come from a culture where the supreme goal in life is to have the time to sit in front of the TV for six hours after work every evening. Having a good job is important, but only as a means to acquire better stuff to use in your leisure time. :)

[Critters2]

28. I'm not from California, so maybe I'm missing something...

but isn't Berkeley a state school? Is it really as competitive as Stanford or other private schools?

[XemaSab]

33. It's a state school

But it's very competitive to get into, like a private school. You basically need a 4.0 or greater to get in.

on edit:

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2006/08/18_rankings.shtml

Ranked #21 in the nation (the top ranked public school) by US News and World Report.

[Mikey929]

65. Exactly!

Home life is the most important factor in education success.

A recent study asked kids what is the lowest grade they can come home with before their parents get mad at them. For Asians, the average answer was B+. For whites, the average answer was C+. For black kids, the average answer was D. In other words, the black parents -- on average -- are not upset at their kids' grades until they're basically failing. The Asian parents have much higher standards and will address poor grades far earlier. And the white parents are basically OK with their kids getting average grades.

I don't know where this mind-set comes from, but it has to be acknowledged if we are to fix the problem.

[pampango]

14. Elsewhere in the Times article

A 2005 study by two authors from Princeton showed that ignoring race in university admissions would result in Asian filling "nearly four out of five spots that now go to blacks and Hispanics. Affirmative action has a neutral effect on the number of whites admitted...but raises the bar for Asians."

My son is half-Asian (Filipino) and half Caucasian (me). He is a senior in high school now. He has done very well in school and on his SAT's (though far, far from a perfect 2400). He is applying to several California universities and several Midwestern ones (we live in Ohio). Given the higher admission standards that colleges seem to apply to Asians, it is in our interest to minimize his Asian roots in his applications to college.

I do sympathize with admissions officers who should be concerned about maintaining a campus that reflects the society at large and does its part to help overcome racism and discrimination. At the same time, this article indicates that affirmative action in university admissions restricts the admission of Asians, not whites, who still get admitted in about the same numbers with or without affirmative action. Asians are not to blame for our history of racism and discrimination, indeed have been the victims of such in our history - most notably the Japanese and Chinese.

Not sure what our society should do about this. Do you hold Asians to higher standards to control their numbers on campus and enable more blacks and Hispanics into college? How about half-Asians who look Asian, but have Western-sounding names (like my son)?

[DemocratSinceBirth]

15. I Think Class Based Affirmative Action Is Worth Exploring

I think folks would embrace giving working class and poor kids a break regardless of their color...

[kath]

50. Yes -"affirmative action" should not apply to those from well-to-do

families, even if they are a "minority". In college, it really chapped my ass that a guy I knew who came from a well-off Miami Cuban family was admitted under affirmative action (and, IIRC, got a scholarship) He came from a MUCH wealthier family than I (Caucasian) did.

[maxsolomon]

20. i'd be shocked if he got into any U of C system schools

its pretty much in-state kids nowadays, asian or not.

[pampango]

25. Thanks for the heads-up.

If he gets denied, I tell him not to feel so bad. We visited Berkeley and some others during the summer, but no one mentioned the in-state foucs (other than for tuition rates of course.) :)

[maxsolomon]

45. both of my washington-state geniuses got rejected by U of C

my junior with a 3.8 in bio E @ U of Wash got shut out at U of C. my freshman got into U of Wash. honors program (200 kids out of 20,000 accepted in her class), but got shut out at U of C. & not just at Berkeley, but at Davis, Santa Cruz, etc.

i never realized how awesome i was to be accepted at Berkeley for Gradual School (where i gradually learned i didn't want to go to school anymore). but that was another generation ago...

[NewJeffCT]

66. I've heard arguments for dividing Asians between cultures

One group for Chinese/Japanese/Indian/Korean and other for other Asian groups that might need more help through affirmative action.

[devilgrrl]

21. Oh well!

eom

[Lefty-Taylor]

23. self-delete nt

[muriel_volestrangler]

24. For my information: do these figures just include American students

or do they include overseas students as well? I'm not sure if American public universities take overseas undergraduates. If the figures do include non-American students, then it's not very surprising - a prestigious university on the Pacific is bound to attract a lot of Asian-nationality students.

[fujiyama]

39. Americans public universities do take some

international students, but the number is extremely limited (especially at a UC school, like Berkeley which is required to take in mostly state residents), and oftentimes those that do come are quite wealthy, as they are not eligible for any US loans or financial aid.

OTOH, it's interesting to note that a majority of US graduate courses in science and engineering are made of international students.

[1932]

51. 90% of UC,B undergrads are from California.

I'd guess the numbers above lump Asian-Americans and Asians into the inaccurate term "Asian", but, even if they didn't, the numbers wouldn't be much different.

[AtomicKitten]

37. my daughter is a Cal alumnus

while diversity is important, merit still matters

[Matariki]

38. oh no - the yellow peril!

:eyes:

[pampango]

43. Don't have to be afraid of the yellow peril to realize that there

is potentially a problem, if the increasing Asian enrollment is linked to the decreasing black and Hispanic enrollment.

My son is half-Asian, so I hope that there aren't too many restrictions or higher standards for admission for Asians. But I also believe that to set aside higher education as a sort of pure meritocracy, without regard to the hurdles faced by some racial, ethnic or economic groups, is inconsistent with my belief in the value of affirmative action in private and public employment.

While it is hard to justify not rewarding hard working kids who have prepared well for college, my son included, it is also hard to justify a campus that is not reflective of the larger society.

[Matariki]

49. I think these sort of articles are 'sensationalism' - to scare caucasians

this isn't some sort of competition between Americans of different race.

What we need in this country is ONE standard and EQUAL FUNDING for schools. It's completely unfair that kids living in more affluent (higher property tax) neighborhoods get to go to better schools. It's unfair that some states have better schools than other states. It shouldn't be this way. At a college level we need to be funding affordable education for EVERYONE - and not drive kids into a lifetime of debt just to get an education.

That this isn't a major priority of every parent and every business leader in this country is beyond me.

[fujiyama]

40. There is a real dilemna

as to how you maintain diversity, yet at the same time, not penalize hard working students with good academic records from good schools (often this means another minority race - usually Asians).

There are several models available. One is the Texas example, where a certain percentage at the top of the graduating class is guaranteed a spot at UT-Austin. This is good in a way, because it allows Blacks and Hispanics from lower income districts to attent a prestigious university. Though, this also punishes hard working students from good schoools in a way.

At the same time, the top 10% from a lower income school has not had the educational experience as that from a wealthier school. They are also often not as prepared for college classes (despite higher grades), still requiring remedial classes. This is simply due to a poorer college preparatory curricum in HS. After all, a wealthier school will offer AP and IB classes, which are much more difficult and challenging than standard courses in a worse off HS.

The country has dropped the ball in educating students in general, but this is especially true in poorer neighborhoods. It's not racial necessarily, but the attitude is mostly cultural, affecting lower income areas. The mentality among many in those communities is irrational - and doesn't stress education the same way as in Asian families. Though in all fairness, sometimes it's simply due to the lack of resources and the time available for people to spend with their children on educating them. After all, when you are working two jobs to make ends meet in a low income area, when do you have time to instill the importance of education? Also, oftentimes in especially bad areas, children are forced to drop out of school to support family, making continuing education especially difficult.

[Annces]

42. Probably not in the humanities

From my experience.

[BlooInBloo]

47. Really? Not American citizens? That's amazing.

[JI7]

52. what are you referring to ?

[BlooInBloo]

54. I'm just amazed that 41% of cal-berkeley undergrads aren't American citizens.

[JI7]

55. i don't see where it says they aren't American Citizens

[pampango]

59. I think there is a bit of sarcasm in the response.

The OP refers to "Asians" not to "Asian-Americans". One could draw the conclusion from that term that the article is talking about people from Asia, not to Americans of Asian descent. (If the article stated that 41% were European or Australian, you would assume that they were not American citizens.)

[BlooInBloo]

62. Was what I say *really* *that* elliptic? (shrug) So be it.

[Cleita]

48. It's the same at many other UC Campuses. Since residents can't

go tuition free anymore like in the fifties and sixties, Asians seem to be more likely to have the money, or their families at least, to pay the tuition and other expenses. I don't know if anyone has done a study of this but it has been my observation especially when I worked at UCLA.

[XOKCowboy]

57. Very good point!

Even without the free college education (what a communist concept!) it's getting harder for Americans without substantial subsidies (or a rich family) to go to college. Tuition fees are through the roof.

I work at computer and electrical engineering conferences for the past 10 years. Remember that back then broadband was a concept and cellphones were bricks. Back then it was mostly all white shirted pocket-protector guys in the audience and former telco execs speaking about the future. Now it's predominately Asians and Indians attending and also speaking because they're on the cutting edge. In their cultures education is paramount to having a successful and prosperous life. It used to be the same here in America.

[mainer]

92. Asians make SURE they have the money for education -- even if they don't

It's not necessarily that they're richer. I've seen immigrant families scrape together every last cent, and mortgate their homes, to put their kids through college. While a lot of white families wouldn't dream of making that sacrifice.

[Cleita]

93. Also, families in the community help each other out.

The better off will put together cash for a family to start a business so that they can have the money to raise and educate a family.

[Clarkie1]

53. I honestly thought it was higher than that. nt

[ConsAreLiars]

56. The White Supremicists who prohibited equal opportunity provisions in admissions

policies will soon be advocating for White Rights bonus points to be added into the calculations. For myself, my view is that maximizing diversity (all sorts) in all institutions, including colleges, provides an educational experience that is of value to society as a whole.

[pampango]

58. Except that the article quotes a 2005 Princeton study that

shows that the increase in Asian enrollment does not come at the expense of whites, but of Blacks and Hispanics. Most of the concern about this situation that I have seen is from advocates for other minorities not from White Supremacists, since whites have not been negatively affected by the elimination of affirmative action in university admissions.

I agree with you regarding the value of diversity. If white enrollment at the universities were going up and minority enrollment declining, there would be great cause for concern. If Asian enrollment is increasing, with Black and Hispanic numbers declining, while white numbers stay about the same, is that a good thing for society or not. My brain gives me one answer. But my son who is 18, half-Asian, and waiting to hear if he will be admitted to some UC schools, makes my heart give me a different answer. He has worked hard at a rural public high school from which only about 40 percent of the students go on to a 4 year college.

[NorthernSpy]

81. whites are 44% of California's population, but only 29% of the students admitted to ...

... at UC Berkeley in the post-affirmative action era.

The thing is, whether affirmative action is in the picture or not, whites have indeed lost places to Asians -- and will likely continue to do so in greater numbers.

That is why I predict that arguments in favor of a student body "more representative of the society whose taxes support the schools" will gain currency in the years ahead.

[GreenZoneLT]

60. "Asian" my ass

Those are Americans. How many of those kids are second- and third-generation (or fourth-, fifth-, etc.) Americans? They're about as "foreign" to American culture as Italians.

Americans of East Asian descent are, basically, short white folks, as far as being able to get fit into American society. Heck, half my friends have adopted Chinese kids.

[pampango]

61. Indeed, most Asian immigrants (and succeeding generations)

accept the rules of the "American game" and work hard to succeed at it at school and at work. They are indeed "short white folks". One could make the argument that in many cases they are more "white" than many American whites who, while they are young may spend more hours playing video games than studying and, when adults, may prefer longer vacations and shorter work weeks than extra hours spent at the office.

Precisely because many may consider them to be "white" (though that idea drives most Asian-Americans crazy, at least most of those I know), should we not pause to consider the societal implications of Asian-Americans displacing Blacks and Hispanics at our universities?

[Mikey929]

64. Yes

Yes, Latinos and Blacks and Whites will all have to work harder to keep up. The Asians aren't getting into college in higher percentages because of pity or generosity; they're there because of their hard work and good test scores. So the solution is for the other groups (whites included) to work harder.

Or would you prefer some system that discriminates against well-qualified Asians?

[pampango]

69. Agree that we will "all have to work harder to keep up."

As the world becomes more interdependent and diverse, we need to face the prospect of increased competition both economically and academically. We can do this by either 1) putting up barriers against foreign products and people, so that we can preserve our "way of life" and status quo or 2) by "working harder" to meet the economic and academic competition confronting us from elsewhere.

I see four groups of thought here at DU on this:
1) Keep out foreign products, but let in immigrants. (We can't compete with slave labor, but we are an immigrant country and they are a dynamic force for our economy.)
2) Keep out the immigrants, but let in the products. (We need the cheap imported products to make our lives better, but immigrants compete with Americans in the labor (blue collar) market.)
3) Keep everything out. (We are better off relying on Americans for labor and our own companies for our employment and market needs. Each country should be an island unto itself.)
4) Let everything and everyone in. (All people in the world are equally important. Everyone and his/her products should be free to move from country to country freely.)

These are oversimplified summaries of positions. Most of us believe in modified versions of one or the other (perhaps more than one at different times.)

[JAbuchan08]

90. I say let all the people in and all the jobs out

That would be quite a wake up call.

[AngryAmish]

72. Try to get into an Ivy League school as an Asian

Then one will find out that an Asian person must have a much higher test scores and other qualification than whites, blacks and hispanics.

[BlooInBloo]

63. That was my point. Not to white folks, they aren't.

[NorthernSpy]

85. yeah, I knowed they was white inside...

:eyes:

Believe it or not, Asian groups in America really do still have languages and cultures of their own -- which they increasingly retain. Dismissing Asians as "basically short white folks" is incredibly presumptuous: maybe they don't consider themselves to be "just like" you, and maybe they don't want to be.

Did you even read the article? It described a campus where self-segregation by race and ethnicity has emerged as a norm. That suggests something quite different from what you claim.

[Lilith Velkor]

70. As long as they're not female, the dominant culture will probably be OK with it

I recall quite a few tizzies here at the notion of women getting college degrees in proportion to our numbers.

[porphyrian]

71. Good. Let them figure out how to pay off the fucking loans. - n/t

[NorthernSpy]

83. The black-slappers wanted "strict meritocracy", and by gawd they got it!

After bitching and moaning for years about affirmative action, how are whites faring after finally getting their way? Not so well, as it turns out:

White freshmen (29 percent) are also below the state average (44 percent).

Not only that, but getting rid of affirmative action doesn't seem to have done much for the Right's pet causes of promoting assimilation or ridding America of multiculturalism, either:

Mr. Hu shrugs, saying there is a fair amount of “selective self-racial segregation,” which is not unusual at a university this size: about 24,000 undergraduates. “The different ethnic groups don’t really interact that much,” he says. “There’s definitely a sense of sticking with your community.”

I've argued for years that white Americans gain more from affirmative action than they lose. But noooo: the quota bashers just could not wrench their envious gaze from the small (very small, actually) shares set aside for blacks (as well as Native Americans and hispanics).

Well, now they've got their way -- and how! Pardon me while I go laugh my ass off.

[pampango]

84. Whites may have lost from the elimination of affirmative action

in higher education in California, but the 2005 Princeton study indicated that its elimination has a neutral effect on white college applicants nationwide. It hurts Blacks and Hispanics in favor of Asian Americans.

I haven't heard whites complain about university admissions in California, but I don't live there. If they do after dumping affirmative action, then they are hypocritical. If they accept the results of this "meritocracy" then they are practicing what they preached. If they do complain, it will be funny to listen to the verbal gymnastics they employ to justify holding back Asian admissions in favor of whites.

[lovuian]

91. One of the predictions is that in a few years Whites will be a

minority not a majority... this is your first glimpse of that

The question then comes will we have diversity when this happens
or a majority who wins

[AZBlue]

94. The real question is how many are citizens and how many have come here just to go to school?

I think it's a shame that so many universities are filled with students who are from other countries when so many from our own can't get there because of lack of money. What are they doing in other countries that we aren't?? Do they have special programs to fund education? Are we footing the bill? I'm not attacking non-citizens for coming here - I really don't care if they come or not. I simply want more Americans to be able to attend college too!

My father works with the University of Arizona graduate programs and he estimates that about 60%+ of the students there come to the US only for an education and then leave again - its so widespread that in two of the programs you no longer need to speak a word of English to get your Master's Degree. Why are we educating the rest of the world and not our own citizens too? What the hell is going on here?

[aein]

96. international students pay market rates n/t