Cindy Sheehan Impressed by Cuba Med School

[Mika]

Cindy Sheehan Impressed by Cuba Med School

US peace activist Cindy Sheehan visited Havana’s Latin American School of Medical Sciences on Monday and wrote in the guest book that she was impressed with the school and the students, “I’ve never seen anything similar in the world.”

The “peace mom,” who lost a son in Iraq, and other members of the Code Pink: Women for Peace organization toured the medical school where 10,000 young people from 28 countries are studying free-of-charge including 91 from the United States.

In their exchange with students and school administrators, Sheehan and her group highlighted the nobleness of the humanitarian project and what it will mean for the countries of the region.

Ann Wright, a retired US Army colonel, thanked the Cuban government for the medical assistance the island immediately offered after hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans and the Gulf Coast in August, 2005. “Even though the Bush administration refused to accept your gesture the people of the United States appreciated it a lot,” she said.

[Mikey929]

1. OK

And?

[BuddhaGirl]

3. I wonder why Castro

had to leave Cuba for medical treatment? :eyes:

[Mika]

10. Cuba has never claimed that it has the best specialists in all fields of medicine.

Besides, Castro going to Spain for medical treatment is a rumor that has not been verified.

[liberalnurse]

19. Quality care is not always

measured by state-of-the technology. O8)

[David__77]

38. Please...

Cuba has a great medical service - the best in Latin America. But it is also a small country and does not have sufficiently advanced specialty fields in every case. This is normal for a small developing country, regardless of social sytem. You really do not understand this?

[slackmaster]

So, if an old guy who works in a sugar mill has the same problems as Fidel

He'll get the same level of care as Fidel, right?

Even sent to another country at state expense, or have a doctor brought in if Cuba lacks a sufficiently qualified specialist to treat him.

Quite unlike the unfair system in the USA, where only the wealthy have access to the best medical care.

:sarcasm:

[malaise]

110. Let me put it this way

that other guy has a better chance of receiving decent health than anyone without health insurance in your country and it won't ruin him financially either.

[slackmaster]

116. I understand that completely

Cuba has done a great job of distributing basic mediocre health care to every citizen, in exchange for a large majority accepting what would be considered a lower class standard of living in other respects in the USA. It's a nation of working poor, with relatively few people in the upper class. It's a totally different system than ours, it does a better job of providing care for people at the bottom, but the bottom is much larger than ours and there still are higher tiers for people who can afford it.

The equivalent of my hypothetical Cuban sugar mill worker would be someone who works in an automobile plant or a construction tradesperson here. Most working class US citizens do have health insurance, provided by an employer or a union. People at the very bottom here have access to state-provided benefits, at a lower standard than the poorest Cubans get.

If you get sick in Cuba your standard of living won't change. What happens to you in the USA is a function of whether and what quality of insurance you have, which is loosely connected to your income level.

At my company everyone has access to exactly the same plans; there is no special executive package for the head honchos. That's not true for most large corporations, but most employed US citizens do have access to a reasonable level of care.

[Joe Chi Minh]

149. Most "employed US citizens", eh? How many unemployed people

were there in your country, at your last count? I don't mean "homeless" - just unemployed.

[slackmaster]

152. That number is not connected directly with the number of uninsured

An unemployed person may be covered by his or her spouse's employer- or union-sponsored health insurance plan.

An unemployed person may be paying monthly premiums on a COBRA plan (legally mandated continuation of employer-provided health insurance), or may have purchased private health insurance.

To be counted as unemployed you have to have been previously employed, so that number would not reflect young people starting out who haven't gotten their first job. Some of them may be covered by other peoples' health insurance plans, e.g. their parents or a spouse's. Unemployment statistics also do not include people who have intentionally dropped out of the system and made themselves ineligible for government-provided benefits.

I don't see that your question has any relevance to the discussion. The people most affected by the problems with the health care system are the "working poor", people who work at low wages for employers like Wal-Mart that do not provide coverage.

People who are truly destitute are covered for basic needs. The working poor cannot qualify for the benefits available to the truly downtrodden.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

172. you haven't met me -- overeducated and unemployed

Covered by his or her spouse's employer or union sponsored health insurance plan?

My Significant Other got CANNED back in the spring of last year by a MEDICAL SCHOOL who is suffering from CHEAPTHINK and is being SUED right and left. They may well lose their accreditation due to their shortsightedness. I would imagine they are probably going to be paying out fortunes in court judgments for wrongful discharge, contract violations in contracts with doctor/professors, and so forth.

Paying monthly premiums on a COBRA plan? If I am unemployed and don't have savings how would I pay for that? Huh? No WAY.

Counted as unemployed you have to be previously employed? Yes, been previously employed for about 25 or actually more than 30 years, off and on, if you count unemployed periods finishing college degrees, pregnancy, motherhood, illness. I had no pension or other bennies or even regular unemployment to draw on. No job, no money coming in. Really simple.

Covered by someone else? No, I'm an orphan. My parents are dead. I have no siblings (one dead from cancer at age 42). I paid child support to my child's father until she graduated from high school, and I am not paying a crying dime for her college. I've done my time. And this was when I couldn't find a job in the 1990's, when the economy was supposedly good under Clinton. I fell out of the middle class under Clinton's watch.

Most affected by health care problems are the working poor? Oh yeah, I wasn't working poor when I was working. I was UNDEREMPLOYED. I have three college degrees and that includes a doctorate. I went to college for 12 years. It's because the employers have destroyed the middle class. All they think about is the short term and the bottom line. They are threatened by intelligent people like me. Especially if they are female. They can't stand competence, because then it might make the boss look bad. They fire everyone that doesn't suck up to their silly buzzwords and corporate fads.

I don't know where you are coming from, but the greedy corporate bosses of America have destroyed the educated middle class. I'm not unusual, I'm one of MILLIONS of the best educated generation America has ever had, thrown away and told "We don't need you, you're too old" at age forty or fifty or sixty.

It's their loss. You don't think there is a social contract between the society and its members, to take care of the weak and the disabled, or even to give the able bodied and educated a chance to work at meaningful employment.

[slackmaster]

189. I am intelligent, well-educated, and gainfully employed

Very sorry to hear about your situation.

You don't think there is a social contract between the society and its members, to take care of the weak and the disabled, or even to give the able bodied and educated a chance to work at meaningful employment.

Straw Man. I have never said any such thing.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

194. I looked for a job for over a year

I have decades of experience, skills, etc....I finally said "To hell with it. America is about mediocrity."

America is all about destroying the middle class and age discrimination and competition. It's not what you know, it's who you know, and whether or not they give a damn about you enough to help you get a job. None of my multi-millionaire classmates could lift a finger for me.

Turning forty is a crime. Turning fifty or sixty is a mortal sin.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

209. Correction:I looked for a job for about a decade, and all I could find was total crap

And I have high blood pressure from the stress from my previous job (based on my vocational school/junior college degree that so many people look down upon). So I can't have a stressful job and use my skills from my two other degrees, apparently. The bachelor's and the doctorate.

I repeatedly told my employers I could not handle stress, and that they needed to do things in the work place to reduce it. They did nothing and ignored me.

[Mikey929]

239. A decade?

I sympathize with your situation. But at the same time, you seem to have this tone in your posts of blaming others without looking in the mirror. What is the reason you couldn't get a job with all your education?

I have a small law firm. If someone came in for an interview telling me they can't handle stress and need me to change things to ensure that their job won't be stressful, there is no way in hell I'd offer that person a job. I need someone who can handle stress because it's simply part of the job. Maybe you should look for a government job.

[Joe Chi Minh]

217. Your replies are disgusting. Compare the statements in your last two posts.

All of a sudden we hear what you would like us to believe is a measured and comprehensive overview of the healthcare provided in Cuba and the US. This, after the utterly puerile jibe of a desperately selfish rich man, at Cuba's truly admirable system of free health care for its whole citizenry. "Ha! Ha!" we hear. But where are its Mayo clinics. *** off, Niles! Go off and by another pair of those excellent shoes from your little Portuguese cobbler!

The truth can be summarised as follows:

"People at the very bottom here have access to state-provided benefits, at a lower standard than the poorest Cubans get." For the "people at the very bottom", read, "the immense number of the poorest in the US". Now you say the truly destitute are covered for their basic needs; and the "working poor" cannot even qualify for that! In your previous posts, we heard how many working poor in the US received health care through insurance cover via their emloyer or spouse. That employer health cover...? would that be universal or extremely uneven and piece-meal? And the same with the spouses' joint cover.

How basic is the "basic" care for the very poorest? How much is the maximum they can expect to be spent on them? How long do they have to wait in a queue to be treated?

You should be ashamed to call yourself a human being, but somehow I doubt you feel any shame in this regard at all, any worse than the next man.

[slackmaster]

255. Oh, now I'm a "rich" man

That's, uh, rich.

You should be ashamed to call yourself a human being...

Actually I am pure-blooded Yeti, so far superior to any mere human being that you are quite incapable of understanding anything about me.

[Mojorabbit]

237. Not so in our case

My hubby is a physician who had a heart attack at age 44(7 years ago). His carrier left Fl and no one would insure him at ANY price. We have looked for years and we are hoping he can get on the AARP plan.
I have lived in fear of losing everything if he had to be hospitalized again. Insurance carriers are cherry picking and if you have a preexisting condition you are out of luck.

[Mikey929]

168. Black Market Medicine

And don't forget about black market medicine. Doctors are all employed by the state (by law) and can only charge what the state allows. Doctors make very little money. So they charge under the table for quicker and/or better treatment.

[jmowreader]

268. I have a better "equivalent"

I'm thinkin' waitress or Wal-Mart sales associate--autoworkers make a lot of money, and construction workers can depending on what trade they're in.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

153. I'm sorry you are not able to engage in a civil discussion here

When the US can provide even a rudimentary, free national health service, Dumbo, you still won't be in a position to sneer at the Cubans.

I've never sneered at the Cubans. My sneerage is directed at apologists for the dictatorial Cuban system that until recently was able to survive only by several billions of dollars per year in subsidies provided by the now-defunct USSR. The country almost went broke in the early 1990s. It's not the paradise some here try to paint.

BTW the Cuban system is not "free". The Cuban people pay for it by accepting a lower standard of living than most in Europe and the USA.

But you'll be able to writhe with embarrassment a little less rabidly, and maybe learn to keep that fat, dumb trap of yours firmly shut on a Democratic board.

This board is for Democrats of all stripes, my friend. It's very unfortunate that we have to tolerate your kind of snotty attitude, but the flip side of having free speech is that you don't have a right to suppress rude, unpleasant, ignorant behavior as that which you are displaying here.

[manic expression]

156. Well

You insinuated that the Cuban system wasn't fair, something that is ludicrous. The system IS free, Cubans don't have to pay out of their pockets. The lower standard of living is due to the embargoes and nothing else, that much is a fact.

[slackmaster]

157. The Cuban system is "fair" to the point of absurdity

It's a way of spreading shortages around equally, so that everyone (except a few elite like Fidel) live equally squalid, impoverished lives.

[manic expression]

159. No, it's not

It spreads resources and benefits to all. Didn't anyone teach you about sharing?

That you would suggest the Cuban people live "squalid, impoverished lives" is pathetically wrong. All Cubans have access to medical care, housing, education and more, while Vietnam veterans freeze to death under bridges in the US. Furthermore, anyone who knows anything about Cuba knows that their standard of living is due to the fact that the US has laid siege to the island for half a century. Take that into account next time.

[JacksonWest]

174. You're sorta both right.

It spreads resources equally- and everyone shares in the short falls(or surplus). It's the same thing. The per capita income is 3500 per person, yet the life expectancy is fairly above average(75 for men, 79 for women). Yes, they are poor, but the government provides for the people. Their basic needs are met, and they remain poor. There hasn't been a violent revolution or free election since Castro rose to power. Aside from their willingness to host nuclear weapons, they're a harmless little island nation ruled by a dictator who keeps the people in poverty but provides for their essential needs.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/cu.html

Personally, I think it would be shitty to be born into poverty, and forced to stay there, regardless of who's paying for my doctor. But it seems to have worked out for some.

[manic expression]

202. I'd disagree

Castro isn't a dictator. He has no dictatorial powers.

Cuba sees such poverty because of a US siege that has lasted half a century.

They have free elections, probably more "free" than our own.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

They are not "forced to stay" poor, they are forced to share an equitable community, which is fair. Everyone should contribute to society so that society can support them, that's how community works.

Just my opinion, and I think your opinion is valid and well thought out.

[JacksonWest]

225. Agree to disagree mostly....

Like I said, I don 't think being forced to share is fair-but it may be a better system for some. I am a capitalist-so you and I are bound to disagree on some fairly basic thing(n our own belief system). Anyway, I'd take Castro over Bush. Viva you, live long and prosper.

[roody]

213. Squalid? I don't think so.

Cuban life expectancy is longer than the USA's/

[otherlander]

176. Fidel Castro doesn't have a "low standard of living".

[manic expression]

205. It's not much higher than other Cubans n/t

[Joe Chi Minh]

221. "BTW the Cuban system is not "free". The Cuban people pay for it

by accepting a lower standard of living than most in Europe and the USA."

Now, more clearly than ever, you betray your sorry (I won't say, "squalid", because it's sadder than that) materialistic values. You clearly know the price of everything, and value of nothing.

Strange to relate, there are many quite "ordinary" people in our society - not hermits or monks - whose sense of dignity, worth and contentment owe nothing to the perquisites of affluence, afforded by our glorious, corporatist capitalist society. Lower standard of living indeed! I don't think you'd know what a decent standard of living was if it hit you over the head.

[rman]

253. How is it a low living standard when you have

guaranteed healtcare, education, food and housing regardless of income?

By that measure Cubans (and Venezuelans) have a higher standard of living than many US citizens, and to a lesser degree a higher standard of living than many Europeans.

[slackmaster]

254. You're funny

Thanks for posting. It's always entertaining to watch someone try to read another person's mind over a text-only anonymous forum.

[manic expression]

154. It's not impossible

I'm not sure on the specifics, however.

At any rate, Fidel isn't wealthy.

[slackmaster]

155. The Pope isn't "wealthy" either

But someone has to pay for his airline tickets and medical bills.

[manic expression]

158. The difference

is that the Pope lives in a great amount of luxury. By all accounts, Fidel's only "luxury" is a bigger TV than most Cubans.

Ignoring the fact that his trip to Spain is a rumor, it is not unreasonable for a (now former) head of state to get a trip to a country for specialized treatment. Your obsession with making it out to be some type of extravagance is completely unfounded.

[slackmaster]

190. I've read his house is quite large, though simply furnished

And he has two TVs.

[manic expression]

204. Right

The TV deal is the only "luxury", really. I'm not sure about house size, but I'd have to look at the source (you have to be very careful about what you read when it comes to Cuba).

[Mikey929]

170. Not Wealthy?

The man owns the country, for Pete's sake. Forbes estimates his wealth at hundreds of millions of dollars. Forbes admits this is more art than science (Castro is not exactly free with his books), but he is the head of a state where the state literally owns all corporate enterprise.

So Castro is very wealthy. Do you think he has ruled this country for 40+ years just to have a slightly larger t.v. set?

[manic expression]

206. He doesn't own the country

you're repeating lies.

Forbes makes that sh*t up, they change the figure all the time. And no, Forbes basically admits they have absolutely no basis to say what they say, making it borderline slander.

It's a fact that Castro does not live in extravagance.

[Horse with no Name]

228. It isn't unusual

Musharref came to my town in Texas for his treatment.
In countries where coups are common...a leader cannot trust that the medical community has not been infiltrated.
After all--the US has STRONG CIA ties in Cuba.
It isn't farfetched to believe that one could slip through the cracks.
After all--that IS what they do.

[Little Wing]

5. 'zactly

[Mika]

7. Its simply shameful that Americans can't freely go to Cuba to see this for themselves.

Cuba is a poor nation, but Cubans have managed to create a world class health care system.
The US is (supposedly) the wealthiest nation, but has an ever crumbling h-c system that only wealthy have full access to.

[Mikey929]

13. World Class Health?

I'll have to do a little research. Something tells me not to believe outright that Cuba has a world-class health care system. If you mean it's free, OK. But in terms of the quality of the care, the accessibility, the delay in appointments, the cutting edge science, having the most advanced equipment, etc., I'm a little skeptical.

But as I said, I'll do a little research before judging.

[Mika]

20. Cuba has more Drs per capita than most all other countries

Cuba has clinics in all neighborhoods. Access is instant and free of charge. Meds and treatments are free.

As far as having the most advanced equipment, the US extra territorial sanctions prevent some of Cuba's access to that. But, despite this, Cuba does quite well in that regard.


Been there. Seen it.



Both Cuba, Venezuela reap benefits from medical program
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/16423167.htm

[murray hill farm]

32. Been there and seen it too!

And it is true!

[LostinVA]

29. The best care doesn't mean the best equipment

Most Americans can't even afford health care, and even less dental care, so all of that gee whiz high-tech stuff means nothing. At least Cuban citizens get free, fast, and excellent basic and intermediate health and dental care. And, quite a bit of their higher-end stuff is pretty good, too.

[scisyhp1]

131. Quality of healthcare in a country is very easily defined

by simply measured population health indeces. Such as average life expectancy,
mortality rates at all ages, prevalence of various deseases and so on. Any available
statistics indicates that Cuban population is as healthy and lives as long as
people of any developed country. It certainly compares favorably to statistics reported
for the US. It is very unlikely that all that is just due to natural healthiness
of the Cubans which allows them to overcome their substandard healcare. The fact that
they may have less access to the latest expensive diagnostics and treatment technology
than US patients do, only calls into question overall efficiency of such technology and
enormous economic cost of healthcare in the US, not the quality of Cuban public
health services.

[bobbolink]

231. Welcome to DU, scisyhp1!

:toast:

It occurs to me... if people have access to good preventive care, they have less need for "expensive diagnostics" and associated technology...

Just stands to reason....

[roody]

277. Cubans enjoy good reproductive health and

services. No woman has to go through an unwanted pregnancy. And they have access sex education and birth control. The streets of Cuba are amazing for their lack of young women carrying babies. Of course I am sure the Miami Mafia and Bush crime family would like to see this dismantled.

[MyNameGoesHere]

136. well if you want to research it

i suggest you actually go to Cuba. And do not say it is impossible to go. there are ways. trust me. If you just read it in the news/internet the propaganda machine will present it in a negative light. I would say just go and see what you think.

[Mika]

207. I have actually been to Cuba - many times.

That is why is say with full confidence that Cuba has a world class health care system.

BTW, I'm a doctor (DDS).

[slackmaster]

31. I agree we should all be able to visit Cuba

Cubans should be free to visit here as well.

[roody]

226. You can go to Cuba. Buy a ticket in Mexico.

Uncolonize your mind. Cuba may be the first to cure cancer.

[slackmaster]

271. I've checked - Getting a license to go legally is a major hassle

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1097.html

I know a lot of people do exactly what you suggested and bypass the licensing process, but as the holder of a federal firearms license I cannot consider doing so.

Cuba may be the first to cure cancer.

It's nice to dream, but there is never going to be one universal cure for all cancers.

I'm content to wait until diplomatic relations between the USA and Cuba normalize. I'm 48, and pretty confident it will happen within my lifetime.

[roody]

275. I've been to Cuba twice with Pastors for Peace.

I have to live my life now.

[midnight]

234. I'm curious? What is a world class health care system.

Anyone want a crack at this.

[Dorian Gray]

235. Sure we can.

I know many people who have travelled to Cuba. When I lived in England, I almost went on a holiday to Cuba with my ex and his friends, who did end up going. (I backed out of the trip due to family illness.) I also have friends who have travelled through Canada or Mexico to go there for a week or two at a time. It's not difficult to get to, and it's not as closed off to we Americans as some would think.

[rman]

111. The richest nation in the world has worse healthcare than

one of the poorest nations in the world.

[Dorian Gray]

233. Is she a medical expert?

I'm unsure of the significance of this story, other than her getting a tour and writing a nice word about it in the visitor's book.

[rman]

249. No need to be a medical expert in order to see

that there's a "medical school where 10,000 young people from 28 countries are studying free-of-charge including 91 from the United States", and to be impressed by it.

[Dorian Gray]

266. Of course not...

but why is this news? What does her opinion on the medical school mean to us? It really shouldn't mean anything. I'm not saying whether it's a good school or a bad school. I'm sure it's great. But, so what? This should only matter to Cuba supporters who believe that their medical schools are ones that we should model ours after. Or that Cuba has something good to offer. And her opinion on the medical schools don't really mean anything, as she doesn't have the background to convince us of the benefits that the system has. It would mean more to me if a medical expert were saying it was a great school for medicine. Then at least the opinion would be truly about something, and we could start an effective dialog on what works and what doesn't work in the Cuban medical system. But she's a visitor filling out a visitor's log. It's pointless, and it doesn't have anything to do with... well... anything.

[rman]

281. Cubans having better, cheaper healthcare than many Americans do

should no matter to us?
Right...

[Dorian Gray]

287. You didn't read a word I said if that is your response to my post.

Cindy Sheehan's opinion regarding a medical school in Cuba shouldn't matter to us, as she isn't an expert. If it were an expert's opinion, then it would be the basis for a discussion about the merits of the Cuban system v. ours. But, her opinion is only that of a visitor in a visitor's log. Nothing more, and this topic and all the argument about it is really silly.

[rman]

288. I understand perfectly what you are saying;

"Cuba has nothing good to offer".

Fact is that Cuba does have something good to offer.

Again, you don't need to be a medical expert to understand that free healthcare for all is better than healthcare that's so expensive many cannot afford it.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. I believe that

health care should be the right of every citizen. The Cuban model, including a hierarchy of services from the local doctor to surgeons in hospitals, is one that we could learn from, I think.

[Mikey929]

16. Right?

Where does the supposed right to healthcare come from? I agree we, as a caring nation, should try to ensure that everyone has access to health care. That's different from saying we all have a "right" to health care. What is the logical argument for why health care is a right?

If health care is a right, do I also have a right to food, heating oil, a home? We need those things to live. Is that the basis for saying health care is a right?

[LostinVA]

30. "do I also have a right to food, heating oil, a home"

IMO, yes, you do.

[Mikey929]

36. Problem

OK -- where does that right come from?

Also, once you say that every person has a right to food, heating oil, and a home, then --by definition -- the government has an obligation to provide it. Should everything just be free? If so, how would that work?

[LostinVA]

63. Maybe you're at the wrong site?

I mean that sincerely, and I am NOT implying you're a Freeper. Democratic Socialism works, and works in countries that have much higher qualities of living than we do.

It works.

[Mikey929]

65. Legit Question

I am asking a legit question about how an economy would work if everything we need to live on is a guaranteed right. Is it merely a safety-net in times of trouble? Or is it an outright "right" that we can demand of our government. And where does one draw the line between what is a right and what is merely a luxury in life?

I will state up front that I am not in favor of socialism. Do I have to be in order to be a democrat? I resent your suggestion that I am at the wrong site simply for asking a question.

[LostinVA]

66. And, I answered it

I refuse to be baited. Good try, though.

[Mikey929]

70. Bait?

Yes, I am baiting you, if you define "bait" as asking for an explanation of one's position.

[ThomCat]

You're not looking for an explaination.

You're looking for amunition. You're looking for something to pick apart.

[LostinVA]

101. Thanks, Thom -- it's why I disengaged

Baiting is not discourse nor debate.

[ThomCat]

74. You're baiting this argument down

capitalistic paths. You seem to believe that there are no true rights except for the ones that cost no money. Anything that costs money is reserved for those who can afford it.

That's a horrible framework to work from. One of the challenges our country has faced (reasonably well) for over 200 years is how to keep our rights current as everything gets more complex and costs more and more money. Cost alone cannot be used to deny rights to citizens.

That doesn't mean that government has to pay for it. Sometimes it means that government needs to regulate it. Or that maybe government needs to subsidize it.

Our government spends the vast majority of our national budget subsidizing corporations. It's not unreasonable to think that some small portion of our national budget can be used to subsidize the health and well-being of citizens.

[NashVegas]

95. Maybe He Is

But there is one thing I don't see people bring up here, when we advocate universal health care, or other European-style social benefits: the cost in additional taxes.

Most Americans would scream bloody murder, for example, if you told them they were going to be taxed Denmark's rates. It's only when you consider what they receive for those taxes that it looks reasonable. But anti-tax advocates aren't exactly people one can easily reason with.

[ThomCat]

100. If we went back to progressive taxation

and stopped shoveling money into the pentagon for defense industry rip-off subsidies we could go a huge way towards paying for healthcare and many other social programs we need.

The size of the US means we could get a lot more from economies of scale than smaller countries could. So our cost per citizen doesn't need to be as high.

[Mika]

210. But if one were to consider the payments for H-C insurance policies as a tax..

.. then, ultimately, we pay more in total for taxes and h-c combined.

(Except - single payer systems are more cost effective than the US for-profit system. So, if the US were to change to a single payer system, we would be paying less - in total tax and h-c costs combined.)

[Mikey929]

105. subsidies

I don't agree with all the government subsidies for big business. I think it's welfare for already-rich companies.

I guess I go back to the Constitution and Bill of Rights for establishing a baseline of what rights we have in this country. It's not about cost. And I guess I am leery when people start attaching the word "right" to everything they want. Just because you want something, or even need something, does not automatically transform that into a right. So I was trying to discuss what things are actual rights, and how they came to be rights, as well as what things are not rights. Probably too big a topic to discuss on a message board.

The original rights were generally a right to be free of something, i.e., free of government intrusion. But now it has been converted into a right TO something, i.e., a right to health care, higher education, etc. I think the legal and/or Constitutional argument has to be made in order to create a new right.

[ThomCat]

109. It's a libertarian argument to think that all rights

are rights to be free from something. Not all rights are "the government shall not..."

For example, the 6th amendment requires that the government provide fair and speedy trials, even if that costs money. We have public defenders because of this.

The right to a trial by jury is also a right to something, rather than a protection from something. Even though that inconveniences a whole lot of people who are forced to sit on juries, and it cost a huge amount of money for the government to administer, we still do it.

[Mikey929]

112. Excellent Point About Jury Trial

You're right. That is one of the few rights I can think of that do infringe on another person's time and skill, as opposed to the right to simply be left alone.

Hey -- maybe I'm more of a libertarian than I realized! :)

[ThomCat]

146. I doubt it. I think it's obvious that you're a libertarian.

[Ikonoklast]

185. "......to promote the general welfare..."

It's in the Preamble of the Constitution of The United States.

I think that basic medical care could easily be part of 'the general welfare' of our citizens.

[Mikey929]

241. Check out Madison

The "general welfare" clause is becoming a very popular catch-all phrase to justify anything that anyone wants the government to do. Madison himself, however, warned that the general welfare clause was NOT an open-ended authority for the government to do whatever it wanted; otherwise, we could justify anything under that clause. He emphasized that the Constitution gives the federal government very limited powers, and that the welfare clause must be read in that context.

Of course, we have long ago abandoned true adherence to our Constitution in favor of a federal government that intrudes into our lives on a daily basis.

[sufrommich]

214. Why would he be on the wrong site?

Everything he has argued falls in line with mainstream Democratic ideals.As far as I know,the Democratic party is not against capitalism.I consider myself a pretty mainstream member of the party and I agree with him.I do think we should have a national health care program,but you can have Cuba and it's workers paradise.I understand that democratic socialist are welcomed on this board,but why question his choice of posting on DU based on his distaste for Cuban socialism?

[roody]

276. Yes, you have a human right to a home and heat.

[David__77]

41. Yes, there is a right to life.

I, of course, do not mean that in the anti-reproductive rights sense. But, yes, a right to life. That includes subsistance.

[Mikey929]

121. OK

Then I guess I should take my mortgage bill, as well as last month's grocery bill, and fuel oil bill, and car payment bill, and send them all to my local congressman. Because hey -- I have a right to all these things so it's not my responsibility to pay for them.

[ThomCat]

145. Now you're being argumentative and dense.

:eyes:

[manic expression]

160. You live in a capitalist society

that is why you have to pay for those things. In a socialist society, it would be quite different.

Please recognize reality and the nature of the world you live in before making such asinine statements.

[Mikey929]

164. Asinine

It's not asinine. I was simply being ridiculous to make a point. If all of those things are "rights," then why isn't the government providing them to me? What's the point of calling all those things rights if I just go on paying for them like I always have?

I just don't believe we have a right to food and oil and houses. I believe a fair society should strive to provide a safety-net to those who are less fortunate. But once you elevate those things to the status of absolute rights, then anyone can automatically claim them.

[manic expression]

196. Saying it is a 'right' isn't invalid at all

Society should support individuals, and individuals should contribute to society. That's how a community works.

Forcing people to pay for those costs is callous and contrary to the concept of community. Furthermore, it is inevitable that some people will be poorer than others, and no one deserves to be poor. This inequity is unacceptable, and only those who put the greed of the few above the needs of all would promote a system like this.

Everyone SHOULD claim freedom from the free market, as the free market puts profit over people. I, on the other hand, put people infinitely higher than profit.

In a society devoid of these ills, people would not pay for such things.

[ThomCat]

197. A right doesn't mean the government has to provide it.

It means that if you can't get it on your own the government has to help. You're again using absolutist language to make absurd points, and you're being deliberately dense about it.

People usually outgrow your type of argumenting sometime in their teens.

[Mikey929]

243. Teen?

So by your definition of right, it is a SELECTIVE right. In other words, only some people have that right. As someone who works and is doing well economically, I have to go ahead paying for all of these "rights." Whereas someone who is poor gets them paid for by the government. If something is a right, one would think that everyone has the same right. For example, freedom of speech should not be affected by wealth, nor should freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Why should the right to health care, housing, heating oil, etc. be any different?

Again, I am all in favor of a safety-net for those less fortunate. But these things are not rights. It is such a slippery slope that it could never be applied in a fair or equitable way.

Also, should the government buy a hand-gun for any poor person who wants one? By the 2nd amendment, we actually do have a right to bear arms. But now we're back to the Constitution. Is it OK for a teenager to refer to the Constitution?

[ThomCat]

246. No, again you deliberately refuse to understand.

You keep insisting that it's only a right if the government provides it. It's a right if YOU provide it, or if the Government helps you provide it if you can't provide it on your own. There is nothing in that definition that says that only certain people a right.

Again, you are confusing economics with rights. You seem to have a capitalistic, libertarian definition of rights hard-wired into your brain. Are you sure you're on the right web site? I can think of several other sites where you might be much more in line with the conventional thinking.

[Mikey929]

248. Here we go again

Again, the suggestion that I'm on the wrong site because I am a supporter of capitlaism and don't share the socialist worldview. What fun is it to only discuss things with people who agree with your every sentiment? That's not discussion; it's agreement. Also, I am not refusing to understand. I simply disagree with you. This is a discussion forum, after all.

We are close in our views. I call it a safety-net. You call it rights. I'm really just parsing the word "right." Under your view, I have the right to purchase all the things I need to live. Another person has the right to have all those things provided free of charge. To me, that takes it out of the realm of rights because it is selective in who gets what. You are advocating a communist/socialist form of government which I disagree with.

[ThomCat]

252. Yes, here we go again.

If people keep saying it then maybe there's something there.

I am a strong believer in regulated capitalism, but you're too black and white to see the difference. You seem to be one of those people who believe in being progressive in theory, but in practice require everything to take a back seat to wealth. That's not progressive. That's being an apologist for big-money capitalism and corruption.

[Mikey929]

258. Hold on

I like how you slyly put big-money capitalism and corruption into the same sentence, as if I support both. Yes, I do support capitalism. I do NOT support corruption. You seem to see the two as inherently linked. I do not. Corruption and illegality should be prosecuted fully. But simply because there is sometimes corruption does not mean that capitalism is wrong. That would be like saying welfare is wrong because there are some instances of welfare fraud. As the saying goes, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good.

My focus is not on wealth; it is on liberty and freedom. Capitalism is the most free of the economic systems because it allows individuals to profit from the fruits of their own labor and pursuits. I am not sure what exactly you mean by "regulated" capitalism so it's hard to address that point. Regulated in what sense? The government can limit my profits? Order me to hire/fire people? Tell me what products/services I can provide? I would argue that business is already highly regulated in the sense of taxes, OSHA, EPA, Social Security deductions, FDA, Workers Comp deductions, etc.

We're all in agreement that government can extract taxes from individuals and companies. I guess the question becomes how much are they allowed to extract, and what do they do with that money.

[ThomCat]

259. Coruption in an inherent part of unregulated capitalism.

Unregulated Capitalism is the power of centralized money, with everything valued only in monetary terms. That inevitably leads to stratification and corruption. Those with money get, and those without money don't get. Those who can take money have ever incentive to take it, and regulations apply only to those who don't have the money to buy their way free.

Capitalism only lets certain people profit from the fruits of their labor. Inherently built into the system is that certain people profit from the fruits of other people's labor. That's the whole point. Ownership, not work, is what makes you rich.

The idea that capitalism (or any economic system) by itself is moral is a total myth, and a well recognized myth. No economic system, none, is ethical in and off itself unless you impose ethical standards on it from the outside. That's where liberty and freedom are defined and defended, from the outside. Once you privilage the economic sphere above the ethical/legal sphere then there will be no more ethical/legal sphere.

You ask how much the government can take in taxes. That presumes that there someone other than we the people defines that limit, and you appear to think is based on capitalistic principles. That would put corporate ideas and processes in charge of government. You ask what the government can do with tax money. That should never, ever be discussed in terms of capitalism, because that again puts the interests of corporations in a privilaged possition.

How much we are taxed, who is taxed, and what we do with that tax money should be discussed within a framework of civic need. What do our people need, and how do they need it. What the corporations want or believe should be irrelevant. They should be competing to exist within civic society. Civic society shouldn't be competing to exist within corporate society.

[Mikey929]

260. Withdraw

I think I have to disengage for a while. While your posts are well-written and you have clearly thought about this topic a lot, we are never going to get beyond our impasse in world view. And this site is too darned addictive. I wish you the best.

I wonder who of the current Dem leaders would share your view. Seems like Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Pelosi, et al. are all super-rich folks themselves who have had no problem with reaping the benefits of capitalism. They may talk about the "little guy" a lot, but they sure live high on the hog and don't seem all that ready to start distributing their own income to the less needy.

[ThomCat]

68. If people don't have a "right" to healthcare

then they only have a "right" to illness and death. That, quite clearly, makes health a privilage of the wealthy.

It's very hard to have a right to "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" if you have right to healthcare. Do you really think that only the wealthy should have a right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?

[izzybeans]

86. right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

I'm sure it is in there somewhere.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

127. yes n/t

[bobbolink]

232. Do you have a right to fire and police protection?

?

[Mikey929]

262. No

I would say no citizen has a constitutional right to police protection or the fire department, in the theoretical sense. However, once such institutions are created by the local government, then the police and fire department are required to provide such servies equally to all and without discrimination. In that sense, we each have a right to such services because they have been created to serve everyone. Therefore, if the fire department chooses not to come to my house because I'm black, that would clearly be a civil rights violation. We are all entitled to equal treatment under the law -- rich or poor, black or white, etc. However, there is no constitutional right to have a fire department created. This is a function of local government. But once that service is created, it must be applicable to all in a non-discriminatory fashion.

For example, if I choose to live out in the western states 50 miles from the nearest fire station, and my house burns down before the fire department can get there, I certainly don't have a civil rights action against the government for violating my rights (setting aside any governmental immunity defense which would apply anyway).

[NashVegas]

82. Here's the Issue With That

If training of medical staff is funded by the government (which I believe it is in Cuba? Correct me if I'm wrong) or some other entity that is willing to provide training in exchange for medical staff to provide medical assistance to anyone who asks for it, people may not have too much of a problem.

In the US, most people, except those on 100% scholarships, provide their own funding for their training. Why would they not have the right to set the terms under which they will provide care, and to whom?

[ThomCat]

93. Because no medical school in the US operates without

government funding. One way or another, every medical education in the US is subsidized by the US government, and almost all of the medical research. The entire healthcare industry (and especially the Big Pharm industry) is heavly subsidized with government tax money. So why shouldn't all citizens benefit from it?

[NashVegas]

97. Subsidized, Yes

But not entirely funded.

[ThomCat]

102. So, your point is?

Are you saying that as long as we don't pay a full 100% of a doctor's training we have no right to any influence or control over the healthcare field? That's absurd!

[NashVegas]

120. I'm Saying

That I suspect that medical personel who work in socialized societies don't make nearly as much money as those who work in ours. Why would anyone plop down over $100k in tuition and such if they were to face mandated restrictions to their future income?

[sniffa]

4. now THIS is LBN

i can't wait for other simiLar headLines:

CINDY SHEEHAN LIKES CHOCOLATE

CINDY SHEEHAN IS IMPRESSED WITH THE SELECTION AT HER LIBRARY

CINDY SHEEHAN WEARS SENSIBLE SHOES

[bicentennial_baby]

6. ....

:spray:

[Mikey929]

9. ROFL

Your post had me laughing out loud. Thanks!

This could be a thread all on its own.

[BuddhaGirl]

18. ROFLMAO!

n/t

[progressoid]

104. I like chocolate too.

But only the real American Chocolate, not that socialist French stuff.

[Beaverhausen]

169. BEST. POST. EVER.

:rofl:

[AZBlue]

223. That's what I was thinking!

Well, I didn't put it in nearly as funny terms as you did though - I especially liked the library comment!

[slackmaster]

8. Well now there's a qualified, scholarly assessment for you

:crazy:

[Mika]

11. Well, at least she's actually been there to make it.

Unlike so many of DU's "Cuba experts" who have never set foot on the island.

[Mz Pip]

12. Wonder how many American

medical schools she's visited. :eyes:

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Mika]

14. You mean US medical schools where 10,000 young people from 28 countries are studying free-of-charge?

I hazard a guess that she hasn't visited any that do that in the US. Because there aren't any.

[Mikey929]

22. Not free

As a basic economic principle, nothing is free. Nothing. So even though the students may not have to pay anything, the money has to come from somewhere for the buildings, the teachers, the books, the supplies, the electricity to run the place, the food, etc. Where does Castro get that money from? Is it taxes on the already impoverished people? Is it because he -- as the great leader -- hordes the income the country gets from exports and tourism?

[Mika]

26. If Forbes magazine says it, it must be true.

"As a basic economic principle, nothing is free."

Um.. obvious. Duh.



Maybe if you read the article you would understand that it is free-of-charge to the students.



Please provide some links to some proof to back up your claim that Castro 'hordes the income that the country gets from exports and tourism'.

[Howardx]

15. i wonder how the cubans will help stop the war

thats her thing isnt it? stopping the war?

[hughee99]

23. She's branching out, thinking about the future.

The war isn't going to last forever (hopefully).

[Hoosier Dem]

73. Yeah, how would she live without her celebrity???

[MADem]

17. That was my thought, too... NT

[Howardx]

21. i wondered that about her visit with chavez as well

i wonder how he plans to help stop the war

[MADem]

24. It was all about tweaking the Monkey, because he dissed her, perhaps?

A protest at Capitol Hill ahead of the 'surge speech' might have been a better way of keeping attention on the war. This approach is alienating the great mushy middle, the ones who have finally been pulled over to the antiwar side.

Of course, there will be many who disagree with that assessment, but it's shared by everyone I'm talking to lately...

[Mojorabbit]

40. This is true and I have seen it in my own family

who are a mix of liberal, social liberal/moderate, conservative, and neocon. They all had great respect and listened to what she had to say in the beginning. She had the street cred. She had lost her son and was speaking out.
Now they consider her a flake and stopped listening. Right or wrong that is how it is. It is her decision but the effectiveness she had is gone in this microcosm I am watching which is my extended family.

[Hoosier Dem]

60. Our family feels the same way...

Somewhere, she lost sight of her original purpose. Now, its no longer about getting justice for her son or to get an answer as to why he died. Now, its all about Cindy.

She's become a caricature. Personally, I find nothing redeeming in her visitng a repressive dictatoship like Cuba. Maybe she can pay a nice social call on the Chinese next?? All she's doing is damaging her own reputation. "Flake" is probably one of the kinder things I've heard her called by my friends and family (most of whom are progressive Democrats).

[Bridget Burke]

119. Google "Cindy Sheehan" and Flake....

More than 61,000 sites appear. www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22cindy+sheehan%22+flake

A few are saying that she's not a flake. But most are The Usual Suspects, touting the latest Right Wing Talking Points.

[Mojorabbit]

130. What has that got to do with anything?

No one debates the right wing feels that way.

[Bridget Burke]

140. Just an observation on vocabulary....

Someone needs to buy a thesaurus.

[Mojorabbit]

186. I'll be sure to tell my 76 yr old dad that

He has used that phrase my entire life.

[Cameron27]

90. Judging by this thread,

I'd say she's pretty neatly deflected discussion of the Iraq War.

Who cares what she thinks about Cuba's health care system? Is she's going to tack on a treatise about nonsocomial infection rates in Cuba compared with US hospitals, along with the list of abuses at Gitmo?

Muddled message.

[Say_What]

117. Muddled Message....

You can't have it both ways. Here you claim she's *neatly deflected discussion of the Iraq War*, but in post #46 of another thread you're whining that she should go see bought-and-paid-for US shills who are in prison for aiding Cuba's arch enemy, the UGLY NORTHERN NEIGHBOR. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3046259&mesg_id=3046943

BTW, any idea what the sentence is in your own country for aiding foreign agents?? Didn't think so... :sarcasm:

[Cameron27]

126. She was asked for some support

by that group, well actually they only wanted her to take a look at the Cuban prisons. She's in Cuba to protest Gitmo abuses, so that makes more sense than evaluating a damn Med school.

I don't know that these groups were paid for by foreign shills, or foreign agents, but what does that have to do with the condition of Cuba's prisons? She's set herself up as a champion of humanitarian rights, I think that's how she got into Cuba legally, and she's attending a conference for that purpose. Checking abuses in Cuban prisons would fit in with that mission.

Yeah, damn right I think she's way off track with her anti-war message. That happened a long time ago, but if she's going to speak out, at least have some credentials to offer. Med school, nah, prison abuse, well like I said, that's what she's there to protest.

Asking any question about Cindy Sheehan is met with hostility or ridicule. Whine much yourself?

[Say_What]

218. LOL Still muddling the message...

No sooner do you say *she's way off track with her anti-war message*, than you switch horses and say that *Checking abuses in Cuban prisons would fit in with that mission.* :wtf: the Iraq war has nothing to do with Cuban prisons--it's GITMO that's the problem.

BTW, let's be honest. You're not asking questions about Cindy, you're looking for excuses to knock her.

[Cameron27]

224. Hey, it's her choice not mine.

No one forced her to become a spokesperson for humanitarian causes in addition to being an anti-war activist. Her choice.

Med schools have nothing to do with the Iraq War, but she visited one and spoke out about it.

Cindy's going to participate in a conference in Cuba, about human rights violations; THAT'S how Cuban prison abuses ties in. She was asked; Cindy herself was specifically asked to do this.

You know, I've never spoken one single word of criticism about Cindy Sheehan until she disrupted the Democratic press conference. Not one negative word, ever, to anybody.

I admire her for the work she's done protesting the war, I have nothing but sympathy for her as a mother who's lost her son in an unethical and immoral war, and it's absolutely her right to speak out about anything she wants.

But it's absolutely my right to speak up about her or anything else that I want to without having my motives challenged.

edited to add: Yes, her anti-war message is deflected and unfocused, and I wish that it wasn't. I think she's going to lose supporters because of it, but that's my own opinion. Time will tell.

I never criticized her for protesting Gitmo, and I only asked if she was going to respond to the Ladies in White because I had just read about their request in my newspaper. I think she should honor that request. Again, my opinion.

There are things that Cindy has done and said that I don't agree with; why don't I have the right to speak about them?

[Say_What]

227. Cindy Sheehan: I Shunned Cuban Women?

<clips>

A letter to the Editor of the New York Sun.

Dear Editor,

An article written by Sarah Garland was recently brought to my attention where I supposedly am shunning a request from a Cuban Women's organization to visit a Cuban prison.

Your article was the first I had ever heard of such a request and I am amazed that such accusations would be made without verifying the statements with myself or a representative of mine. Medea Benjamin was correct in stating that we had never heard about the letter, but she does not represent me.

I recently wrote in my blog available at www.GSFP.org that I am concerned about human right's violations all over the world, but especially when these violations occur from my government. There are many countries that the U.S. trades with and whose leaders George Bush meets regularly with that have atocious and abusive records: ie: Saudi Arabia and Communist China.

I regularly accept invitations when my schedule permits and may have been able to accommodate this request if I, or anyone on my staff, had seen it.

It seems that these women are able to protest on a weekly basis in Cuba. I commend them for their steadfast commitment to improving the conditions of humanity and their courage to hold a candle to injustice.

I am here to shed a spotlight on America 's inhumane treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo which has put a black stain on the heart and soul of what once was a nation that in times past was above such atrocities. I feel our house should be clean before we dare begin to hypocritically point out the garbage in others'.

Cindy Sheehan

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/706

[Cameron27]

230. Excellent, I'm very happy

she wrote that.

A reasonable position that I definitely can support.

edited: spelling

[Say_What]

238. Me too. She cleared up some lies in the press that those of us who

follow events in Cuba know: that when it comes to Cuba, one can believe nothing in the MSM.

Peace!!


U.S. peace activist Cindy Sheehan stands before a banner demanding the closure of the Guantanamo U.S. naval base in Havana January 9, 2007. Sheehan and a group of other peace activists plan to march to the gates of the U.S. Navy base in Guantanamo, Cuba on January 11 to protest against abuses at the prison camp for terrorism suspects. REUTERS/Enrique De La Osa (CUBA)


Asif Iqbal, a Briton who was held in Guantanamo for three years and released without being charged, speaks during a press conference next to the members of the Gold Star Families for Peace, US Adele Welty (R), Zohra Zewawi (2-R) from Dubai, mother of a Guantanamo prisoner held since September 2002, US Medea Benjamin (C) and Cindy Sheehan (L), in Havana. More than two years after his release from the US detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, British national Iqbal plans to return there on Thursday to call for its closure.(AFP/Juan Carlos Borjas)

[Robbien]

25. I see your plan on stopping the war is

by posting snears about peace activists on internet discussion boards.

BushCo and the rich elite thank you.

[Mikey929]

28. Unfair

To say Bush and Co. thank the previous poster is unfair. I think the point being made is that Cindy IS a peace activist. Thefore, what in the heck is she doing visiting a repressive Cuban regime? How does that assist in the anti-war movement? The poster was not criticizing her anti-war efforts.

Just because Cindy does something does not automatically make it ground-breaking news, nor does it make it worthy of a thread.

[Robbien]

34. BushCo is grateful to anyone who still believes Cuba shoud be punished

and that Cuba is evil.

The rest of the world deals with Cuba on a daily basis. Cuba's biggest industry is tourism and foreign trade. The only countries in the world which still believe there should be an embargo against Cuba is the USA and all countries under the USA's thumb.

So yes BushCo and the rich elite thank you and yours for spreading their word about how big bad and evil Cuba is.

[Mikey929]

39. I agree in part

I agree wholeheartedly that we should be able to visit Cuba and have free trade with Cuba. That would do more to raise the economic life of the average Cuban, provided that Castro allows it.

Cuba is not evil. Castro, however, is a petty tyrant who is in power because of his armed might. He puts dissidents in jail, he censors authors and film-makers, and he hordes the income that should belong to the people.

As much as I try, I fail to see why some people admire the guy. How can you admire someone who censors free speech, censors authors, and puts dissidents in jail?

[Robbien]

50. We really don't know what goes on

because of the big money our government puts into screening out any real information about Cuba.

But you smear it anyway.

The USA puts dissidents in jail. The USA censors free speech. The USA currently has about four hundred immigrants (half children) in a concentration camp. And so on and so on.

We don't know what really is going on in Cuba, but what you are snearing at them about is being done right here at home.

[Mikey929]

64. Proof?

If you think America is the same as Castro's Cuba, then you know nothing about Cuba.

OK, what authors have been imprisoned in America for their opinions? What film-makers? What political dissidents?

How does America suppress free speech? (with prison like in Cuba?)

And tell me more about this "concentration camp."

[Robbien]

76. What?

I know that the USA is a restrictive country. Is is the same as Cuba? Don't know, I don't know what goes on in Cuba. Noone here really knows what Cuba does.

You ask who has been imprisioned by America without just cause. This thread is all about the Gitmo prison Cindy visited. The Gitmo prison where the prisoners have been rotting away for four years without even being charged or given representation.

You ask how the USA restricts free speech and yet every single protest has all protesters caged away in Free Speech Zones miles away from anyone else.

And as to this concentration camp of which you say you are unaware, here is a link to a DU discussion thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=3064687

[Mikey929]

108. Of course we know

In case you have forgotten, there are a lot of people who have escaped from Cuba. Yes, escaped. And they tell stories of what Cuba is like. So yes, we do know about Cuba.

[manic expression]

162. No, you don't know

Some people emigrate from Cuba, but this is due to the economic circumstances created by the half-a-century US siege on the island.

You failed to take that into account, not surprisingly.

And I've spoken with many people who have been to Cuba, and they would laugh at the fallacies you believe.

[Mikey929]

182. Tourists

Yes, we should believe tourists over people who actually lived there and risked their lives to get off that island. I'm sure the tourists see the true Cuba from their hammock swing on the beach at an all-inclusive resort drinking their mojitos.

[Judi Lynn]

191. There are people who post at D.U. who have been in and out of Cuba for years

and are far more familiar with Cuba and Cubans than you seem to have noticed. Some retain close ties with Cubans as relatives, friends, one has a god-son there, one DU'er has worked in a teaching capacity, a medical capacity, a sugar cane worker, all have been far, far off the beaten track, over and over again.

There's no room here for a flippant, snotty response. They aren't tourists.

[sufrommich]

208. The "some people" who emigrate from Cuba

sure seem pretty vocal about lack of freedoms there.Are they lying?

[Judi Lynn]

229. The "some people" who emigrate from Cuba have a problem with

freedom in Miami, as well, considering the severe limitations on what can be said without earning the speaker harrassment, a pounding, or, in the case of people like Cuban "exile" moderate, Emilio Milian, a car bombing.

He's seen here, lying on the ground outside the radio station, from which he called for the Cuban "exile" community to control its violence, and got his car bombed, and lost his legs for his troubles.



Or the exile banker and author who had his Miami office bombed for his work in trying to create dialogue with Cuba.

Maybe you remember reading around the time of Elián Gonzalez what happened when a radio personality from Washington State showed up in the crowd outside the house where he lived, wearing a shirt saying the kid should be home with his dad, or something similar, and the crowd turned on him so wildly a cop had to drag him out.

The art galleries, hanging artwork by Cuban offices, bombed. Tourists agencies, bombed. Embassies, bombed. Packaging stores which handle packages to be shipped to Cuba, bombed. Concert halls where Cuban artists were coming to sing, bomb threats. The crowds outside throwing baggies filled with urine or other excrement at the concert goers, and D-Cell batteries at their heads, and rocks, spitting, shrieking filthy names. People taken to the hospital. Council men who say, "It's not a first amendment thing, it's a Cuban thing." Finally, the town passed an ordinance banning ALL Cuban national artists from even performing or showing their work in Miami. The ACLU proved it to be illegal and they had to rescind it.

Human Rights Watch/Americas issued reports in 1992 and 1994 that condemned the perils to free expression in Miami and warned that right-wing radio stations were inciting groups to violence. "Only a narrow range of speech is acceptable, and views that go beyond these boundaries may be dangerous to the speaker," said the 1994 report, the last study the group made of the region.
(snip/...)

http://www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=766

What about the Cuban community, after their little monster tyrant, Jorge Mas Canosa attacked the Miami Herald's publisher, David Lawrence, for allowing articles which didn't condemn Cuba enough, or criticized Cuban Americans for any reason, turned on him, started a campaign in which his office and staff were bombarded with BOMB THREATS, they bought advertising on buses, and billboards, claiming "I don't believe the Miami Herald," and the final touch, newpaper vending machines throughout the city were covered with human feces. These people have a thing about feces as a "statement."

It just goes on and on. You should take a look at the list of the bombings in Miami against people they saw as their "enemies," for various reasons. Earned the city the title "Terror Capital of the United States," from the F.B.I.

Yeah, they do seem vocal, all right. You've got that goddamned right. You might want to ask yourself why there was a complete rush OUT OF TOWN by so many, many Floridians after a while, and why Jorge Mas Canosa once told the Spanish paper, El País, They haven't even been able to take over Miami! If we have kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?" (MH, 7/28/94; WP, 7/28/94)
~~~~ link ~~~~

[sufrommich]

280. Are you implying that all cuban exiles

are terrorists thugs?What was the point of that diatribe?Hundreds of thousands of Cuban immigrants are in this country,they span the political spectrum just like the rest of us,implying that "they" are all cheering on the criminals committing crimes in their name is no different than blaming any other ethnic group for the same.

[Robbien]

178. The Iraqi exiles knew that invading Iraq was the right thing to do

Just because one is an exile from a country does not mean that exile knows what the USA should do to that country.

Cuban exiles love BushCo. Iraqi exiles love BushCo. The Iraqi exiles pushed for Shock and Awe bombing of Iraq. Cuban exiles push for the US to take over Cuban government, privatize all the assets and pollute the countryside all to hell.

We listened to the Iraqi exiles and see where that got us.

[MADem]

72. Well, those Cuban doctors being compelled to labor in VZ would probably agree with you.

Although they don't pay for their educations as doctors, they do 'pay' over the long haul. No opportunity for private practice, one must work for the state in the specialty they permit you to follow, and wages are very low. Plus, you can be "loaned out" to developing nations without any say-so on your own. You don't get any extra pay for this duty, in fact, you will do without the joys of home and family, AND be kept under de facto house arrest. The reason for this is because many doctors try to defect once they get off the island: http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/world/cuba/15274916.htm

...Since taking power in 1999, Chávez has increased trade with Cuba and sought to benefit from its expertise in health, education and defense. Barrio Adentro, or ''Inside the Neighborhoods,'' was one of several programs Chávez set up with the help of Cubans, and an estimated 20,000 Cuban medical personnel are working in Venezuela.

Many of these Cubans wind up defecting. Exact numbers are impossible to get, but Julio Cesar Alfonso of the Miami-based Solidarity without Borders, a group that helps Cuban doctors abroad who defect, estimates that more than 500 have escaped the programs in many countries.

DIFFICULT LIFE

Cuban doctors working abroad do not have an easy life.

Cuban officials monitor them closely, Rodríguez and Jiménez told The Miami Herald. They could not speak with the media, and there were regular ''code reds'' -- alerts for unspecified reasons during which they couldn't leave home....

Those doctors are used as an export, an asset that Cuba can trade with for oil, and the doctors in VZ aren't too thrilled about it either:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4688117.stm

Hundreds of Venezuelan doctors have marched through the country's capital, Caracas, demanding the expulsion of Cuban doctors.

President Hugo Chavez says he invited the medical staff into the country to provide free health care for the poor.

But Venezuela's doctors, who are also asking for better wages, say the Cubans are taking their jobs.

They say the government is trading its oil revenues to pay for some 20,000 Cuban doctors and dentists.

Dressed in white medical gowns and bearing national flags, some 400 doctors and medical staff carried banners reading 'No More Cubanisation!' as they marched.

Of course, people are complex, and Castro isn't all good, or all bad. He did do some good things for the woefully underprivileged and underserved of his nation, and he certainly 'levelled the playing field' by getting rid of a bunch of corrupt, rich, exploitative bastards. He lifted up the least of the brethren, prioritized important things like health care and education, and gave people who might have had no opportunity a lot of opportunity. The trade-off, though, was that he had to hold many people back to do this, and consequently, he cannot TRUST his own population, because if they could leave, way too many of them would. My opinion is that he would have done well to transition to democracy many decades ago. His love of power and his own hubris prevented him from being a truly great leader, unfortunately. He will still go down in history, but he'll never be cannonized like he could have been if he had simply trusted his own people and been much less repressive.

Chavez, too, isn't a complete saint or a total sinner. He's a guy who is political, first and foremost, and is doing things the way he sees best, to secure his place on the world stage and in history. The uncritical adoration of him comes from folks who see the world in binary fashion, and view him as somehow the "opposite" of Bush just because he opposes Bush. The truth of the matter, though, is that they are quite alike in many ways. Their agendas may be different, but the way they view their individual roles in the world is probably more similar than different.

Interesting profiles of him, here (not new, but both are reasonably in-depth): http://www.newyorker.com/archive/content/articles/020422fr_archive03?020422fr_archive03
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article.jsp?id=3&debateId=33&articleId=2319

[manic expression]

161. You're lost

Do you have any idea what "free trade" means? It means workers get exploited, period.

Castro is not a tyrant. Please cite a single tyrannical power that he possesses (you won't, becuase you can't, because he has none). Cuba doesn't put dissidents in jail, just ask Oswaldo Paya; Cuba DOES put people who secretly take money from foreign governments for political work (this is illegal in practically every country). He doesn't horde income.

Your statements are purely wrong. Back them up or admit that you have no argument.

[JuniperLea]

55. Where the hell did you find those lines to read between?

I saw nothing that could even remotely suggest such a thing in that post!

You snarked out of line. Period.

[murray hill farm]

48. Are u saying that if a person is a peace activist,

that it is a rule in your world, that it is all they can be...that all activity outside of one role must be excluded from their lives? Must we..according to your one role rule, choose to be just one role in life people? Hmmmmmmmm!

[JuniperLea]

57. How did you extrapolate such rubbish from a simple question? n/t

[Mikey929]

62. Of course not

I am NOT saying that Cindy has no right to go to Cuba and praise Castro. She is entirely free to do that. But what I AM saying is that just because Cindy does something does not mean I have to agree with it or find it worthy of praise. On her peace activism, I admire her vigor and passion and determination. But I think it's wrong-headed to support someone like Castro, and I am free to voice that opinion (at least I am free to do so here in the USA, not in Cuba).

I do not support dictatorships or socialism or the oppression of people. So I do not support Castro.

[EstimatedProphet]

78. How do you know?

Seriously, how do you know Cuba is a dictatorship? How do you know Castro oppresses people? Is it from the Cuban dissidents in Miami that you know this? Is it from our government telling you?

I don't know one thing about Cuba. I've never been there. What I do know is that I've heard it is a terrible threat to the US for my whole life - and that the whole time, we've had a major naval base there at the same time. The USSR was supposed to be a grave danger to us, and we never had a base in their domain. Same with China. Yet Cuba, an island which is 1 1/2 hours away from our country, has almost no army or navy to speak of in comparison to ours, and happens to have one of our naval bases, is such a terrible country that we try and pretend it doesn't exist. And all we hear about is how oppressed Cubans are. If it's as bad as we have been told, why haven't we done anything about it - especially when we have a beachhead sitting right there!

I don't know a thing about Cuba, except that the official story doesn't add up.

[Mikey929]

107. WTF?

How do I know it is a dictatorship? How about that Castro has been in power for decades without ever having a free election. (Have the people voted by mental telepathy?) How about that he puts his political opponents in prison, as well as authors who displease him. How about that he has stolen foreign investments and has a personal wealth of hundreds of millions of dollars taken from his citizens.

[EstimatedProphet]

150. How do you know these things, other than that you've been told them?

[Dorian Gray]

236. How do you know that thing with branches and leaves is a tree

other than that's what you were taught?

There is scholarship and reporting done on these things. As for the first "supposition" (Castro being in power for 40+ years without fair and free elections), well... that's a pretty obvious reality.

Seriously, you can turn around and ask those questions about any current or historical leader. "How do we know George Washington fought in the Revolutionary War?" "How do we know that Julius Caesar was killed by Brutus?" "How do we know that Bill Clinton really supported NAFTA?" "How do we know that Kim Jong Il keeps North Korea in a state of seclusion from the rest of the world?" "How do we know that Ahmadinejad is establishing a nuclear program?"

How do we know anything? From reading newspaper articles, visiting a place, second hand/first hand evidence, and research. Knowing people who have lived through experiences, or experiencing them first hand.

[EstimatedProphet]

240. So, then, you know people that have lived under Castro? who?

So you know of articles that you believe are unbiased about Castro? Alright then, list them.

My point, since you don't seem to get it, is that all of our news for the past 40 years or more has been slanted enough that I don't trust it anymore. So, just coming on DU and saying "I know this, and that's that" isn't good enough. That's the same approach to things that got us into Iraq - so many people made the claim that the Koran promises suicide bombers get 72 virgins, that no one stopped to actually look at the Koran. There's been far too much action based on hearsay for too long. I refuse to accept it anymore. I don't buy into someone throwing around "facts" that are supposedly "obvious realities" when there are people debating those facts. You have to do better than that. There's been many posts from people here about Cuba, one side or another. I refuse to pass judgment on any of them until I can evaluate them. Provide some actual information and you may get my support. Citing things you say are true and expecting me to roll over and piss on my belly in fear of debate won't get my support.

There are no "obvious realities" here. Not without the cited facts. And it is not at all the same as citing documented history, because whether you want to admit it or not, there is disagreement.

Prove your case. Don't simply try to claim that the facts are obvious. They aren't.

[Judi Lynn]

244. It's a great mystery why it's so important to right-wing U.S. Presidents to keep Americans OUT

of Cuba at all costs. If things are as they claim they are, wouldn't you think they'd be keen on letting U.S. citizens travel the 90 miles to see for themselves? It could only bear out the truth of what they've been saying all these years.

Cuba is absolutely OPEN to U.S. tourists. They WANT Americans to travel there. They even agree to stamp a blank piece of paper to put inside passports, to be disposed of later, to avoid causing trouble for Americans going back through customs. Americans HAVE travelled there illegally, and, in earlier days, before _Bush almost closed ALL travel completely, except for Cuban Americans, once every 3 years, more people went through people-to-people programs, educational, scientific, arts exchange, etc. Oh, yes: journalists are supposedly allowed to go.

U.S. Government agents hover around Canadian airports, reading all the passenger lists, watching everyone, trying to get a feeling of which passengers are actually Americans going through Canada to take a trip to Cuba. It actually irritates the personel in Canadian airports to have to put up with it.

Jimmy Carter greatly relaxed Cuba travel restrictions. Ronald Reagan pounced on that immediately, and slammed the door shut again. This is very much a right-wing obsession, in its extreme forms. Bill Clinton relaxed some aspects of travel, and _Bush immediately choked off almost all possibilities.

You might ask yourself why Elián Gonzalez' drunken great-uncle Lázaro Gonzalez used to go to Cuba on vacation, sleeping in Elián Gonzalez' father's bed, while the man camped out in his car, going fishing in the daytime, hanging out in the hotel bars at night, and eventually returning to Little Havana in Miami. It was uncovered when a reporter from George Magazine went there to do background, talking to the family members, neighbors, etc. of the kid's dad and late mother.

Why DO the Cuban immigrants take the chance and flock back home when they get the chance? I don't think it's because they are terrified of being thrown in jail, and they did use to come and go before _Bush stole the Presidency.

You WILL come to some clear conclusions after you do more research, no doubt about it.

[Dorian Gray]

247. Oh, please...

I actually do have friends who have emigrated from Cuba back in the early 70s. One good friend of mine lives up here in NYC. He's not rabidly anti-Cuba, and he's been back to visit. But, he does say that his parents moved because they believed that the USA would provide them with a better life. He's certainly not a Right Wing Cuban, but he has no respect for Castro. And, yes, his family has loads of friends who were in the same position as him.

I've travelled to various (ex) Communist nations (Vietnam, China, and Russia), and I have no problem with that. But the glorification of Castro, when he's made his fair share of wrong moves and mistakes, is a mistake on our part. Cuba isn't the bastion of progressiveness that we would wish it to be. I've had friends (both of Cuban descent and of non-Cuban descent) who have visited or vacationed in Cuba. I even wanted to do so myself. They've had both good AND bad to say about the place and their observations, which is what most people would find in any new spot that they went to.

I have no case to prove, either. You're the one adamantly holding up that all we know and have been told of the Cuban government is not true. I can only give you anecdotal evidence of both the good and the bad that exists in Cuba, or do a quick internet search of pages that you will simply disregard as biased. (Things from the CIA, from NYTimes, Chicago S-T, USgov.org.) It doesn't matter, in the end. Cuba has had some wonderfully progressive programs, and they have had some horribly oppressive moments, as well. Any powerful nation has. I know that, despite all the problems in the USA, I'd much rather live her than Cuba. Perhaps it's because I'm selfish, but I like where I am in life now, and I like not having the fear to start an internet board that is used freely to criticize the current regime. If you were totally and completely honest, how likely do you think an internet site like DU, one in which every single member had a problem with the current leadership, would exist in Cuba? Or many other nations, also. Some of which consider themselves Democratic.

[EstimatedProphet]

256. Nope not at all what I'm saying.

I'm not saying that we all know that what we've been told is not true, although I do say that it doesn't add up. I'm saying in the light of what we do know - we have a base on the island, which suggests it isn't the threat we've been told it is, we have people that go there and report things as being widely different, etc. - that to simply spout talking points and then act surprised that people don't automatically accept them with no backup documentation is not going to convince me of anything. If the poster would give some evidence to back up his talking points, fine. So far he hasn't, and it is his burden of proof to do so, not mine to try and research it for him.

[Dorian Gray]

267. Okay.

I get that. I just think that we should all be careful to hold Cuba or Castro up as all good or all bad. He is neither. The Cuban health statistics are quite good. There are statistics involving dissident jailings that are not good. I've had friends who have visited and love it. I've had friends who have visited and feel wary of the place. It's all about perspective. I trust those who hold Castro up as the biggest evil that ever evilled in the hemisphere about as much as I trust those who thinks he can do no wrong. He's implemented good and bad in Cuba. Does the good outweigh the bad and the bad outweigh the good? That's an answer for the individuals who have been affected by his policies and his activities. In some cases, I'm sure the answer is yes, while in others, it's no.

[EstimatedProphet]

270. Well-stated, and I think we're in agreement

I got involved in this thread because I saw something going on that bothers me every time I see it in any thread - dogmatic statements being pulled out as 'proof' of a position. It's all too common these days to throw conventional wisdom out as proof of an argument and say 'everybody knows that!' Usually when I see arguments like that the first thing I try to do is establish WHY 'everybody knows that', and more often than not in my experience it begins to look like the facts which are that are being debated are hearsay, which people assume is true because they have heard it so often. That's why I ask for specific proof. All too often the specific proof never shows up either.

All I know about Cuba can be boiled down to 1 statement: I want to be able to buy Cuban cigars. I'm making no claims about Cuba one way or another.

[hfojvt]

79. Perhaps you need to learn more about socialism and Castro

like Cindy did. You say Castro has hoarded great wealth, and yet it seems in this story that one of the things he is doing with his great wealth is using it to provide free medical education and medical care to those who otherwise might not be able to afford it.

Are Capitalist billionaires usually lauded for their charitable work, while the dirty ways they got their money are swept under the rug. It's a capitalist double standard.

[Mikey929]

124. Wrong

First off, I'm not aware of any capitalist leaders who have imprisoned and killed other people to get their fortunes. And if they are, they are prosecuted by the government. Whereas Castro IS the government so he can do as he pleases.

Second, Castro is not engaging in charity. Charity is when I earn money and then voluntarily decide to give it away. Castro is not giving away his money; he's giving away money that he has taken from his citizens. He didn't earn it at all. He stole it by declaring himself leader for life and simply taking a portion of all the state-owned businesses.

But if you want to believe that the ends justifies the means, and that Castro is a pussy-cat of a fellow, then go ahead.

[hfojvt]

132. "I am not aware" is the key statement there

are you aware that the robber baron Jay Gould once bragged that he could 'hire half of the working class to kill the other half'? Or that Cornelius Vanderbilt said 'Law? What do I care about law? Ain't I got the power?' Or that JP Morgan said "I do not know as I want a lawyer to tell me what I can legally do. I hire lawyers to help me do what I want to do."

They are prosecuted by the government? Ha. Ha. and double ha. They can buy and sell the government. They write the laws so that their theft is legal. They steal from the public at least as much as Castro. Try reading "The Culture of Make Believe" by Derrick Jensen. Here's a snip

"The town of Smith River, just north of here, is the self-proclaimed Easter Lily capital of the world, which means that Smith river itself, the estuary, the aquifer, and all who depend on it - human and non-human alike - are being killed for nothing more than frivolity, profits, and to send across the globe the beautiful and sweetly scented symbol of rebirth....
In the past year alone the growers used 170,120 pounds of dry chemicals and 35,652 gallons of liquid poisons on 1414 acres ...The growers used 62,780 pounds of methyl bromide (also called Terro gas), a chemical that was supposed to have been phased out worldwide by 2000, but has not, in great measure because of complaints (and dollars) from growers in California and Florida. One of the growers is from Belgium, a country where the chemical has already been banned; he moved his operation to Del Norte County because he knew that here he could use toxins banned elsewhere. Methyl bromide not only kills everything in the soil, but devastates the ozone layer at no extra charge...Those they hire to work the poisoned fields do so twelve to fourteen hours per day, six days a week, with one ten minute break and a twenty minute lunch, no bathroom breaks, for minimum wage. They're allowed no days off for any reason. They have rashes that bleed chronically. They vomit. They have headaches. Doctors tell them not to go back, but they need the money. Sometimes they do not even get that. One grower has the habit of calling the INS each year at the end of harvest so he won't have to pay back wages. The fine he receives for hiring undocumented workers is less than the back wages he no longer has to pay." pages 232-236

Not very much illegal there, except for the undocumented workers. Stories like that are not widely told, because the profiteers do not want them to be told. Coca-cola is not going to advertise: "Coke: we kill union leaders in the third world" and AP is not going to run a story either, because they get too much advertising money from Coke.

But they don't lose any advertising money from doing stories about Brangelina and digging dirt on Castro. Heck, even the US government will tell those stories, since they have declared him an enemy, but hush hush about our allies in Turkmenistan.

[EstimatedProphet]

183. Now would be a good time to bring up Pinochet

and Marcos, and Franco, and the Shah of Iran...

Probably lots more, just these came off the top of my head.

[hfojvt]

192. well, those would probably be blamed on the government

rather than on the capitalists controlling the government. Plus, Jensen's book was handy to me, and "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" is not. (I didn't like that book very much anyway)

But good point. We hear about Pinochet's abuses, but we do not hear very much about how he is tied to company profits. Just keep that cheap copper coming. Pay no attention to that dead man behind the curtain.

[EstimatedProphet]

201. Exactly

[scisyhp1]

137. Capitalst leaders that imprisoned and killed other people?

Augusto Pinochet immediately comes to mind. G.W. Bush certainly killed and continues to
kill his fair share - mostly foreigners, of course, but americans too. Leaders of South
African apartheid regime imprisoned and killed quite a few of their opponents. Pinochet
and many others like him (including Bush) actually directly stated themselves that they
did their killing and imprisonment in order to protect capitalism from its many enemies.
Bush, of course, uses such words as "our way of life", "freedom", "liberty" and "democracy"
instead of "capitalism", but we all know what it really means.

[Mikey929]

141. Funny

You know what's funny? Everyone one here rightfully screams about Bush trying to usurp power from Congress and turning this country into a dictatorship with all-encompassing presidential powers.
But at the same time they praise Castro, who actually IS a dictator with all-encompassing powers who stamps out individual liberty, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, and who rules by military might alone.

Isn't there is little bit of a disconnect there?

[manic expression]

163. Give examples of dictatorial powers

that you say Castro has.

ACTUAL EXAMPLES.

Until then, the only disconnect is between your claims and reality.

[Mikey929]

166. Off the top of my head

Let's see here. . . .

He has been in power for decades without ever having an election. So there is no opposing party to challenge him. Isn't that just a little bit dictatorial when you declare yourself to be the leader without giving the people a chance to vote you out?

He has the power to arrest and imprison just about anyone he wants to, even for little things like speaking one's mind about the government. Listen to the stories of those who have escaped -- trials with no evidence, guilty verdicts with no trials.

He bans and censors artisitc freedom, including putting artists in jail.

Businesses are owned by the State, which he is the head of. So he is worth hundreds of millions of dollars taken from the citizens.

He has seized without justification assets of foreign companies.

News is highly censored by the State.

[manic expression]

200. No

Castro has faced elections.

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Political parties have NO PART in the electoral process (not even the Communist Party).

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html

Castro does not arrest people for no reason. Indeed, the Cuban government does not. However, the Cuban government DOES arrest people who take money from the US for political use without telling anyone (which is illegal everywhere). That is not the same thing. People are given fair trials.

Give an example of censorship. Also, what is your opinion of the FCC?

The claim that Castro is worth a great deal of money is a lie, period. What's your source? Forbes? They change the figure whenever they feel like it, since it doesn't actually exist.

Cuba siezed the assets of foreign companies because they were depriving and exploiting the Cuban people. They were 100% correct to do such a thing.

You can get American news with any radio in Havana without a problem. People who have travelled there have verified this to me on multiple occassions.

Also, you failed to provide a single source to back up your claims.

[Judi Lynn]

219. Your assertions are blissfully fact-free, aren't they?

Never had an election? DU’ers have BEEN IN CUBA during national elections, and have written about it here.

You should have someone read to you about Parliamentary systems and elections.

Trials with no evidence? The 75 “dissidents” were put in prison for taking money from the United States government for their anti-government activities in Cuba. THIS ACTIVITY IS ILLEGAL IN THIS COUNTRY. It’s against the law in Cuba, of course.

There were Cuban people working among them who collected indisuputable evidence which was used against them at their trial. One of the agents was a woman who worked with the “dissident” Marta Beatriz Roque over many years, as her personal secretary who provided the Cuban prosecutor with original documents showing a paper trail which condemned her soundly. She was in prison only a short time until the woman claimed health problems, along with others, and they’re all back out doing the same thing.

Your remarks about no trials, no evidence is clear misinformation, also.



Marta Beatriz Roque, also with an official from the American Interests Section.

“He” bans artistic freedom? Why don’t you just post some links on that winner? You’d be doing everyone a real favor by SHOWING US THE EVIDENCE.

Since he is the “head of the state” he also OWNS CUBA? Only the most retarded, the most brain damaged among us would EVER believe that claptrap. Sure, we’ve seen it tried by a financial magazine, but it’s purely the nastiest kind of fiction. Only a deteriorated, nearly destroyed mind would try to foist that off on others.


Maybe it sells in Miami, but Miami has its own problems, doesn’t it?

Seized without justification? That’s called nationalization. Other countries do it, as well. Everyone was offered compensation at the time. OWNERS IN OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE ALREADY TAKEN THE MONEY OFFERED, AND CLOSED THE BOOK. American owners were told by the American government to turn down the offer, and they did. Those offers were mentioned again, and it’s recorded in memos written after a secret meeting by John F. Kennedy’s aide, Richard Goodwin, with Che Guevara. It was brought up by Che Guevara personally. That information has been made available as declassified material.

News is censored by the state? Is that right? How do you account for the fact that people walking down the streets in Cuba, wearing their Walkmen can pick up radio stations from the United States? (This would INCLUDE news stations from Miami, in SPANISH) There are DU’ers who have written about watching Miami tv stations, through conventional means, in the homes of their friends in Cuba.

It was brought up ON THE FLOOR OF CONGRESS by Democratic Congressman from Colorado, David Skaggs, when he was trying to terminate the funding to the Miami “exile” controlled and operated (at ENORMOUS EXPENSE TO THE U.S. TAXPAYERS) TV Marti, that Cubans ALREADY CAN WATCH AMERICAN NEWS AT HOME on their tv sets, so the very idea of trying to send them additional tv news is redundant.

Cuban “exile” Lincoln Diaz-Balart, Republican, told him he would destroy any and all projects Skaggs wanted for the people of Colorado, and he set out and accomplished it. Then he and the Cuban American Natonal Foundation bought up advertising in Colorado newspapers and told them all that David Skaggs had lost their projects. David Skaggs was not re-elected. I presume that’s good news for your side.

A Kansas Congressman was in Havana, and has told other people that he was stunned when some man on the street he met there, as a taxi driver, or someone like that, told him that he knew what legislation was pending in Congress concerning Cuba at that very moment.

"Censors" the news. Right. Nice try. They also get radio and tv from other Caribbean islands and Latin America. They are visited 24/7 by tourists from all over the world. Really pathetic attempt to misinform. You’re going to find out one day, that Democrats simply are not as ignorant as you imagine.

[Mikey929]

286. Uh uh

And you believe all the charges against the 75 dissidents? They were all tried for legitimate crimes? Give me a freaking break. Even the BBC (no friend to the US in its coverage) calls them dissidents.

Yes, 75-year-old poet Paul Rivero was a true criminal who deserved 20 years in prison. I stand corrected. Castro is a wise and just ruler.

[EstimatedProphet]

184. No, there's no disconnect

because there's not all that many people praising Castro. Most of the people here are instead making the point that capitalist leaders don't have a great record themselves.

Also, my point, and some others on this thread, was that everything we "know" about the situation comes through a filter which is designed to keep us supporting our corporations.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

211. Don't forget FDR imprisoning Japanese-American CITIZENS

in World War II.

[Howardx]

35. is she untouchable?

am i not allowed to have and share an opinion i have about her? is there something about cindy sheehan that takes away my right to free speech?

[Robbien]

37. You have the right to criticise her

and I have the right to say your criticism makes BushCo and the rich elite smile. A big grin ear to ear.

[Howardx]

42. actually....

i never made any criticism, simply asked a question. i suppose to some ANY questioning of what she is doing is heresy but i prefer to think for myself.

[Mojorabbit]

134. You mean you are for us or against us?

I don't subscribe to that mentality.

[JuniperLea]

53. How was that a sneer?

Looked like a valid question to me. Now your post on the other hand was pure sneer... so I guess you don't like people asking questions? Seems BushCo and the rich elite would like that stance far better than anyone who asks a simple question.

[LostinVA]

33. Just make the point without sidestepping

God.

We get it, Cindy doesn't care about the war, just hobnobbing with Commies.

[JuniperLea]

58. I'm simply amazed at this thread

So much extrapolation of pure rubbish based on a simple question that doesn't even remotely represent what you are trying to say it says.

Unfreakingbelieveable.

[KittyWampus]

61. Your overreaction to a valid question and point is interesting. It doesn't matter

that we support Sheehan's message regarding Iraq.

But to explore how her visiting Chavez and Castro's Cuba EFFECTIVELY HELPS her get her message about Iraq is worthwhile. At least IMO.

Frankly, that some here are overreacting to the question indicates that there is valid criticism that these people can't handle.

[rman]

115. Chavez openly denounces W's policies and the war,

which is more than can be said of most 'civilized' nations.
Certainly being silent and/or sending troops won't help stop the war.

[Annces]

27. I think you can see all kinds of possibilities when you rise

above your own personal situation and start seeing other parts of the world. Like Oprah Winfrey, maybe she is opening up to larger aspects of life.

[ShaneGR]

43. Out of curiosity, why is Sheehan visiting Cuba?

Not that I think she doesnt have the right to. But I thought her main goal is to end the war in Iraq. Shouting down Democratic lawmakers (before they've taken power) and visiting Communist Coba and praising their healthcare system doesnt strike me as being positive to the cause.

[Selatius]

46. One reason off the top of my head: Gitmo

The US gov't likely would never allow her to go there, but she can get close to the facility through Cuba.

[ShaneGR]

51. It's possible, just worries me....

Definitely gives ammunition to the Reich wing, "Cindy Sheehan, histerical grieving mother and communist sympathizer." It's her life though, certainly she's tried her best to affect change.

[Selatius]

56. I could care less what they call Sheehan.

They called Martin Luther King, Jr., a communist in addition to militant, nationalist Black radical. That didn't ultimately detract from what he had done.

[JuniperLea]

59. Who called her anything? n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

165. Shhhhhh ...

be very, very careful.

One can not question either Cindy or Cuba.

Didn't you read the fucking memo????

[JuniperLea]

212. No! I didn't get the memo!

Curses!

Good thing Cuba and Cindy aren't in Israel! That would REALLY stink the place up!

:rofl:

You'd think no one around here is capable of learning a lession... *whispers the name bev harris*...

I love most of what Cindy has done, but I question everything. You'd think that people around here would be all over that question everything mentality.

Cindy would probably be pissed if she thought people were making a Deity of her! She is far more down to Earth than her Kool-Aid swilling blind eye supporters.

Have I gone too far? Naww.....

My best friend asked me this a while ago... who is advising her? Do you think they are trying to discredit her by making a pseudo-diplomat of her in an attempt to make her appear inept? Is she qualified for that diplomacy role?

Hmmmm....

[rman]

113. Cindy is in good company; Mandela to is a "communist sympathizer"

according to the RW - makes me wonder if all that they say about communism is true.

[Howardx]

52. there ya go

a reasonable answer to what she is doing there, not knee jerk attacks because i "criticized" a minor diety of the left. thank you.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

269. Not only reasonable -- it's the truth. She wanted to hold a protest outside Gitmo.

And Gitmo happend to be in Cuba. Ain't fact simple?

[Selatius]

44. As a Gulf Coast Mississippian, I thank Cuba's doctors for offering their help.

Humanity transcends all political and national boundaries.

[Freddie Stubbs]

45. Yet when the Cuban dictator gets sick, he get a doctor from Spain

[slackmaster]

54. SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Don't mess up peoples' dreams.

[Mika]

215. For a second opinion.

:crazy:

[Freddie Stubbs]

222. Cuba only has ONE specialist in each area?

:shrug:

[Perky]

47. What is the next thing? Will she will be visiting Chavez?

and then Kim il Jong? Iran? Hezbollah?

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

49. How dare she be impressed! Traitor! Burn her!

Doesn't she realize that those Commie Cubans are revving up their '53 Buicks to invade Miami and force us proud 'Murkins to eat Black Beans and Rice, listen to subversive Salsa music, and cram free education and health care down our throats?

How dare she be impressed with free health care for the poor! Our all-American, patriotic, pharmaceutical and insurance industries will be very upset!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

67. Oh! I'm so concerned about Cindy Sheehan.

Oh my! *swoon*

[JuniperLea]

69. LOL!

I think that anyone so willing to drink the kool aid, regardless of the flavor (bush or cindy flavored) are seriously in danger of causing themselves great harm.

I like Cindy. I attended the early vigil and I still support the peace in Iraq platform. I'm just curious as to why just anyone is allowed to make these pseudo-diplomatic visits that have every appearance of being on behalf of the US.

[Hoosier Dem]

71. You are SO Right...

Sometimes we forget that Kool-Aid comes in more than one flavor!

[JuniperLea]

80. I seriously question anyone's lock-step support of anyone

ANYONE!!! If you can't stand for your favorite superhero to be questioned, then you need to grow up and learn to think on your own.

It's important to realize that not one human being on Earth is a Deity. We are all human and capable of making mistakes. Personally, I have supported Cindy with all my heart... I just want to be sure she continues to deserve that level of support. She's a very nice lady, but a diplomat?

Every once in a while a personality comes along who can lead the masses to the Kool-Aid. Those who love Elvis still worship him despite his drunken, drug addled, television shooting, bacon eating end. A lot of people supported Jim Jones to the end too. Let's not forget where the term Kool-Aid originated;)

[noonwitch]

91. Or John Lennon, for that matter-an admirable man in some ways

but face it, the guy who wrote songs like Imagine and Woman is the N@$$^* of the World was actually a multi-millionare who cheated on both of his wives and rejected one of his own kids.

It's never good to blindly follow anyone, because no one is perfect.

[JuniperLea]

98. Well said!

Only zombies blindly follow. I'm too alive for that.

I love John Lennon's music, but had I ever met him I would have had a few choice words without question.

I met one of my all time favorite guitarists... and found he was a right-wing nut-job, deluxe version. I still love his music, but he can take a flying leap otherwise.

You have to know where to draw the line. It's clear to me that there are fan clubs here instead of thinkers... too bad.

[paulk]

171. was it

Billy Zoom?

[JuniperLea]

179. Nope.

Buck Dharma... my b/f takes credit, but I think it was a concerted effort... we got Buck's message board shut down due to political discussions. Hehe! Our claim to fame!!! Don't Fear the Reaper... even the message board reaper! lol!

[Mika]

216. Who is blindly following anyone on this thread?

I see some interesting discussions on the subjects of rights, health care, economic systems, etc.. I see no blind following of anyone in this thread.

[specimenfred1984]

75. "Drinking the Cindy flavored kool aid"? WTF? She's anti-war

Get it, ANTI-WAR.

I'm wondering who gets on this site and bashes an anti-war activist and compares her to Bush?

[JuniperLea]

83. I wonder who gets on a site and publicly drinks Kool-Aid!

No one is saying jack about her anti-war activities! No one! You show me one post on this thread where someone is saying something negative about her anti-war activities. Hey, I attended a Cindy vigil... I supported the cause... and I have a right to ask a question.

If you want to set another human being on a shelf and worship her without question, be my guest.

I question everything. And I wonder what a trip to Cuba has to do with the anti-war message I so strongly support! It's my right and you have no right to stifle my free speech.

Anyone who walks lock step is dangerous! Anyone who cannot stand to see their superhero questioned should take a look at the reasons why that is.

Cindy is a lovely lady. And I've no doubt she would be the first to tell you she is not the Deity you want to make of her. I'm sure she would be appalled at anyone attempting to squelch free speech and thought on a supposed Democratic message board!

[Cameron27]

99. Very well stated,

and I agree. I don't know why this is such a delicate subject.

She's not just the leader of an anti-war movement, and hasn't been for a long time. Protesting Gitmo is one thing, but my nephew has more credentials to evaluate health care systems.

Get focused Cindy; STOP THE WAR; BRING HOME THE TROOPS!

[Mikey929]

77. Final Comment

OK -- this thread has gone on too long already.

My final point: If Cuba is such a rosy and wonderful place to live, how come so many people risk their lives -- their very lives! -- to escape?

[Jcrowley]

87. There are extraordinary external circumstances at work

Both in the present and as a fluid result of the past. To ignore these is to take a position devoid of context. Sadly this is done all too frequently.

In That Light:


THE WORD CUBA might mean land from the Arawak language of the Taíno people, the original island inhabitants. It could also mean cupola, according to recent studies, yet to be confirmed, in which a Hispanic-Arabic origin is attributed to the name Cuba.

Christopher Columbus, in his quest to find a westward route to India stumbled on the territories of America, a continent then unknown to the Europeans, and reached the shores of Cuba on October 27, 1492, where he is reported to have said "this is the most beautiful land my eyes have ever seen." Columbus spent several weeks navigating along the Cuba's north coast without realizing it was an island. Convinced he had discovered the East Indies he returned to Europe and went back to Cuba two years later. It was only in 1508, after another explorer, Sebastián de Ocampo circumnavigated it, that it was discovered that Cuba was an island.

Cuba was inhabited by aboriginal peoples, known as Indocubans. Their society subsisted peacefully from hunting, fishing and agriculture until the arrival of the first conquistador, Diego de Velázquez, in 1510, who landed with a small army at the southeast end of the Island, a place known today as Guantánamo. The Indocubans, normally a peaceful people, offered fierce resistance under a brave leader named Hatuey, for a period of approximately three months, until his capture by the invaders. Once conquered, the Indocubans were nearly exterminated by the harsh working conditions imposed by the Spaniards and by diseases brought to the Island by the new arrivals. To replace the dwindling indigenous labour force needed to work the gold mines, the cane fields and the tobacco plantations, the Spaniards started importing African slaves to the Island and soon slave trade became one of the most profitable activities.

<snip>

Havana was occupied by the British during the Colonial Wars when the British confronted France and Spain and took over France's territories in Canada and the Island of Guadaloupe. Havana fell to the British on August 12, 1762, following a fierce, but unsuccessful, two-month resistance by the peasant population of Guanabacoa and Havana under the leadership of José Antonio Gómez better known in Cuban history as the national hero Pepe Antonio. Spain, realizing the strategic importance of Cuba recovered Havana from the British a year later in exchange for other of its major colonial territories. In the late 1700s Spain's grip on the economies of its American colonies started to relax and trade was allowed between Cuba and the United States. U.S. trade with the Island really took-off following its independence in 1776. To satisfy the growing demand for sugar in the U.S. during the 1800s Cuban plantations were expanded and the number of African slaves brought to the Island vastly increased. The new wealth created by sugar on the Island gave rise to a local aristocracy, locally known as "the Cuban sacarocracy" that became increasingly at odds with the decisions of the Spanish central government. Discontent with Spanish domination extended from the aristocracy to other sectors of the population including the peasants and the African slaves and was manifested in different ways in the ensuing years. Of the various independence movements that were brewing all over Cuba, the first one of any importance erupted on October 10, 1868, at the sugar plantation "La Demajagua," near Manzanillo, in Eastern Cuba, when plantation owner, Carlos Manuel de Céspedes, considered the father of the nation, freed his slaves and, with the revolutionary cry of "Independence or Death", became the leader of a rebellion against Spain that would last until 1878 and would cost the lives of 250,000 Cuban rebels and 80,000 Spanish soldiers.

As Cuba faced the structural changes required by the realignment of its commercial relations, it also embarked into a series of ambitious social programs in benefit of the less advantaged sectors of the population. During the 60s a massive program to eradicate illiteracy was launched and established, greater resources were devoted to the improvement of education and health facilities, there were massive programs to increase the availability of housing and increased economic resources were directed to the development of the rural areas. The early 60s also witnessed the creation of several organizations and institutions, such as the Federation of Cuban Women (FMC), the Committees for the Defence of the Revolution (CDR), the Union of Cuban Pioneers (UPC) and the Union of Cuban Youth (UJC), geared in part to help Cuba withstand the constant U.S. pressure, deal with the anti-Castro insurgents within Cuba and deepen the roots of the Revolution among its people and throughout the country. The early 1960s also saw the passing of the second Agrarian Reform (1963) which affected medium and small landholdings, the introduction of agricultural development plans centred on state-owned farms and cooperatives, the proliferation of small workers brigades devoted to development work in agriculture, literacy, construction of school, and the launching of an ambitious plan to increase sugar production to 10 million tons in order to boost the Island's income and its ability to acquire petroleum products and capital and consumer goods from the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. The 10-million ton goal for sugar production was never achieved and the efforts to reach it may have even caused adverse dislocations in the Cuban economy.


Cuban culture is strongly linked to Cuban history, so it is necessary to know the history in order to understand the culture. Before the Europeans arrival, the Island was home to Arawaco tribes, saw the passing of the warring Caribes and finally, when the Spanish arrived, was the home of the Taínos, Siboneyes and Guanahatabeyes.

http://www.hellocuba.ca/history.php

[ShaneGR]

92. deal with the anti-Castro insurgents within Cuba and deepen the roots of the Revolution

In other words, imprison, torture, and sometimes expell anyway who didn't agree with the great revolution. That part of its history seems to be completely overlooked.

[rman]

123. there was a lot more than just "disagreement"

see "638 Ways to Kill Castro"

clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pJyHRQVZUY

whole thing:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22638%20Ways%20To%20Kill%20Castro

[Jcrowley]

81. The community solution

The documentary, "The Power of Community – How Cuba Survived Peak Oil," was inspired when Faith Morgan and Pat Murphy took a trip to Cuba through Global Exchange in August, 2003. That year Pat had begun studying and speaking about worldwide peak oil production. In May Pat and Faith attended the second meeting of The Association for the Study of Peak Oil and Gas, a European group of oil geologists and scientists, which predicted that mankind was perilously close to having used up half of the world's oil resources. When they learned that Cuba underwent the loss of over half of its oil imports and survived, after the fall of the Soviet Union in 1990, the couple wanted to see for themselves how Cuba had done this.

During their first trip to Cuba, in the summer of 2003, they traveled from Havana to Trinidad and through several other towns on their way back to Havana. They found what Cubans call "The Special Period" astounding and Cuban's responses very moving. Faith found herself wanting to document on film Cuba's successes so that what they had done wouldn't be lost. Both of them wanted to learn more about Cuba's transition from large farms or plantations and reliance on fossil-fuel-based pesticides and fertilizers, to small organic farms and urban gardens. Cuba was undergoing a transition from a highly industrial society to a sustainable one.

Cuba became, for them, a living example of how a country can successfully traverse what we all will have to deal with sooner or later, the reduction and loss of finite fossil fuel resources. In the fall of 2003 Pat and Faith had the opportunity to return to Cuba to study its agriculture. It was a wonderful trip. They saw much of the island, met many farmers and urban gardeners, scientists and engineers – traveling more than 1700 miles, from one end of Cuba to the other. It was all they had hoped for and more.

In 2004 Community Service, Inc. (CSI) began raising money and organizing a third trip (October), to film in Cuba. Greg Green, cinematographer and director of The End of Suburbia documentary, was the chief videographer. Faith Morgan shot the second camera, John Morgan did still photography and Megan Quinn, Outreach Director of CSI, was sound director. After their return from Cuba, they secured assistance and direction from Tom Blessing IV, producer, and Eric Johnson, post-production supervisor and editor. Together, they bring over 40 years combined experience in film and television production.

The goals of this film are to give hope to the developed world as it wakes up to the consequences of being hooked on oil, and to lift American's prejudice of Cuba by showing the Cuban people as they are. The filmmakers do this by having the people tell their story on film. It's a story of their dedication to independence and triumph over adversity, and a story of cooperation and hope. Several Cubans expressed the belief that living on an island, with its natural boundaries, breeds awareness that there are limits to natural resources.

Everyone who has worked on the documentary hopes that, seeing this film, people will also see the world on which we live, as another, much larger, island.

http://www.communitysolution.org/cuba.html

[JuniperLea]

88. They were forced to get back to basics

As should we! But no, we can't seem to get our act together in that regard. Community gardens in Los Angeles were closed just last summer. Notice that Cubans are driving awesome vintage American cars, while we are driving tinfoil death traps!

We can learn from the people of Cuba! They are a delightful and ingenious bunch.

I still don't know what this has to do with a self-appointed diplomat taking trips. Is she doing this on my donations? I hope to hell not!!!

[Jcrowley]

96. That one really hurt

the annihilation of the gardens in LA was definitely a crime against humanity and sanity.

But yes here we really expect to have it all, at others expense, and any restrictions is an unacceptable intrusion on someones "choice."

I suspect Cindy is heading for Guantanamo. I have a couple of friends who went to protest in Guantanamo with The Catholic Workers and the point of going to Cuba really is a political one that is tied to many other issues, in particular militarism. You could almost look at it as a metaphor or as political symbolism which is very important.

:hi:

[JuniperLea]

106. I hope you're right and she is headed for Guantanamo...

That would make perfect sense in the anti-war arena. Simply visiting medical facilities or schools doesn't seem to fit.

I drive past the LA garden site about twice a week. I commute to downtown and sometimes the freeways just aren't worth the ordeal. I eschewed freeways altogether during the protests so I could honk in support. So sad. And that plot of land is sitting idle now. There could have been an entire growing season! What a waste.

[Bake]

84. I thought she was there to protest Gitmo.

Turns out she's doing the grand tour? And now she's an expert on med schools too? Who knew! Somebody let me know when the Gitmo protest is.

Bake

[Alamom]

85. Reason:Gone to Gitmo to protest at the limits of the US Naval Base

When in doubt, read the entire article. She's not there to visit hospitals or medical facilities.
She's there to protest a big part of the problem....as always.




http://www.periodico26.cu/english/news_cuba/sheehan010907.htm




Cindy and the anti-war groups (members of Code Pink: & Women for Peace ) arrived in Cuba on Sunday and will travel Tuesday to the easternmost province of Guantanamo to protest at the limits of the US Naval Base to demand the Pentagon’s offshore prison camp be closed.

At the military enclave, located on occupied Cuban territory, prisoners have been held without charges and subject to different types of torture since January 11, 2002.

[Nutmegger]

89. I STAND WITH CINDY!!!

She has helped us so much. I will continue to stand with her.

[JuniperLea]

94. What if she goes nutty and jumps off a cliff?

You going to follow her then too?

I support her anti-war efforts. I only hope she isn't spending MY donations on pseudo-diplomatic trips like this where she has no business.

I'll march with her on anti-war marches, I'll attend peace vigils, but I don't like self-appointed diplomats regardless of my feelings about them otherwise.

I'm not about to walk lock step with anyone. Not even Cindy, who I adore.

[rman]

114. Since you're not sure what Cindy is doing there,

what's with the "lock step"?
Judging by your posts you support Cindy and Castro's Cuba. Can you walk not lock step - without being so negative?

[JuniperLea]

118. Sorry. You make no sense to me

I'm merely responding to negative attacks at me and other free-thinkers.

I support Cindy's anti-war activities. I support the people of Cuba, but I wouldn't say I support Castro's Cuba and I'm not quite sure where you got that.

I walk lock step with no one. Not even Cindy. No two human beings can agree on everything 100%. It's simply not possible because none of us share the exact same perspective. We cannot. It's impossible.

My lock step comment is in regard to many posters who feel I have no right to free speech and free thought. Simple really. Not sure how you extrapolated anything else from that.

[rman]

122. Your "lock step" comment was a response to someone who said

"She has helped us so much. I will continue to stand with her."

How does that relate to your right to free speech and free thought?

[JuniperLea]

129. Right

"She has helped us so much. I will continue to stand with her."

That is the epitome of lock step... standing with someone without question.

The opposite of that is free thought.

Free speech is the ability to talk about it.

[Binka]

133. Wow A Post From You With Out The Word Extrapolated In It?

You need a new thesaurus.

[JuniperLea]

135. That's not very nice, Binka

I've always enjoyed your posts and we've had a few chuckles together. Why the hate now? Your post is nothing but venom and I'm not sure why. You don't even have a good point of discussion, which is really beneath you.

:cry:

What did I do to you?

[rman]

144. I think people give Cindy the benefit of the doubt

(at least) based on past experience with what Cindy has said and done.

I think that's not unreasonable.
You for some reason seem to think people's support for Cindy now means blind support.

[JuniperLea]

148. I think it is unreasonable to give any human being that much credit

I'm positive that Cindy herself would not. I've heard her say such things.

She is a human being who has been through hell and back. I support her. I've marched for her. But it is pure idiocy to support any human being 100% without asking questions.

We've been down that road before. Need I mention the name Bev Harris? Kool-Aid is Kool-Aid, regardless of the flavor. If you follow Bev or Cindy or George, without so much as a second thought or a question, without knowing all the facts, you are supping on Kool-Aid big time and you are putting yourself and others in danger.

I got blasted for asking questions. That's all I'm saying. No one could give me straight answers to my straight questions, yet they felt the need to blast me for asking said questions. I see that as being a tad unhealthy.

[rman]

251. How is it "that much credit"

to give someone the benefit of the doubt based on past experience?

[JuniperLea]

265. The real players in the information game tell people NOT to believe everything they do or say is

the right thing. They all say to question everything, even them. Past experience has nothing to do with it. Things change and power corrupts. Human beings make mistakes. And sometimes those who are trying so hard to do good and they put so much faith into "their people" that they start taking on things that don't do them or the cause any good at all.

The whole story wasn't here and forgive the fuck out of me for asking some questions. That's what it boils down to. It's too scary... like asking a Freeper about W and getting blasted! They can't answer the questions because they are drunk on the Kool-Aid and all they can do is blast you for asking. It goes for everyone. If you are so wrapped up in the celebrity of the hour to answer a fucking simple question, then you are clearly suffering from Kool-Aid poisoning. That doesn't mean Cindy passes out the Kool-Aid, that means that some people are so hell bent in having a hero that they mis their own batch of Kool-Aid.


Elementary. And I find it utterly frustrating, confusing and downright stupid that I have to explain this to a liberal crowd who have been burned before. Just plain stupid. Just plain dumb that I have to explain this in such a detailed fashion when everyone here should be in full support of the "question everything" mode.

[rman]

282. "believe everything they do or say" vs "benefit of the doubt"

your spin.

[JuniperLea]

285. such bullshit

[ronnykmarshall]

187. I gotta stick my ass in this.

When the previous poster dared to QUESTION something about Cindy ..... OH BABY!! The knives were out! He/She was all but called a neo-fascist pig freeper dog fucker. So why shouldn't he/she fight back?

[rman]

257. Maybe that is because the poster called people who support Cindy

now that she's saying positive things about Castro's Cuba, "Cindy flavored cool aid drinkers" and accused them of "walking in lock step" with Cindy.
That to me seems a bit of an overreaction. Especially since there's no reason to assume Cindy is doing anything worth criticizing - yet the poster's mind apparently was already made up before hand, calling Cindy's trip to Cuba "pseudo diplomatic".

[ronnykmarshall]

103. Off topic (sort of) question ....

Won't Cindy and Code Pink member face legal problems for traveling to Cuba???

[JuniperLea]

151. Yeah, how exactly is it that she is allowed?

Does she now have some sort of diplomatic standing?

[Freddie Stubbs]

203. I don't believe that anyone has ever been jailed for travelling to Cuba, but

I have heard of people being fined.

[Judi Lynn]

245. Dan Snow, an American got a fine, and he also was sent to jail for going to Cuba.

This is his website. The material on the home page is years old, but it's accurate:

http://www.cubatravelusa.com/
http://www.cubatravelusa.com/about_us.htm

He's a very interesting, excellent person.

[Bridget Burke]

125. For those who have avoided learning why Cindy is in Cuba....

She's part of a 15 person delegation from Codepink going to Guantanamo for a protest.

People should not be tortured, abused or held indefinitely without charge, whether perceived guilty or innocent. Holding anyone without charge, citizen or non-citizen, is a violation of the United States Constitution and international law.Torture is immoral, ineffective and absolutely illegal under domestic and international law. In 2002, the Center for Constitutional Rights initiated litigation challenging the U.S. government's detention practices. In June 28, 2004, CCR was victorious in Rasul v. Bush, when the Supreme Court ruled that the detainees at Guantánamo have access to U.S. Courts to challenge their detention.Yet, the Administration has not complied. We demand that the Bush Administration IMMEDIATELY:

• Make public all documentation of torture & abuse.

• Launch an independent investigation & hold those responsible accountable.

• Give all detainees a hearing in U.S. courts.

• Stop the practice of rendition: moving detainees abroad for torture.

www.codepink4peace.org/article.php?list=type&type=171

Most of us can see the connection between the above statements & the War in Iraq--especially as part of the War on Terror.

Others choose to be blind.

[JuniperLea]

138. Thanks for that! This is the first I've heard

I don't get the venom though. Simple questions were asked and snark was served up instead of facts, which you have now done. Yet you belittle yourself by snarking against those who ask simple questions. Not nice at all. Your link is good intelligence, your snark throws a ghastly foul stench in the mix that was not at all needed. Many would have taken the good intelligence had it been presented, but it was not.

Snark away... if you must. No one was choosing to be blind. That is disgustingly shallow of you. We were attempting to become enlightened and you were the only one to offer up anything significant and plausible... and then you ruin it with your fucked attitude. God. Talk about mixed feelings. Thank you very much for the excellent and much sought after information! Now go Cheney yourself for being a butt about it! Jeebus H. Christ on a Wheat Thin!


:eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

139. My "venom" was inspired by the venom shown by so many on this thread.

Finding information on the internet is not difficult.

And my sentence that you found so objectionable seems mild in comparison to your response.

[JuniperLea]

142. From your perspective, perhaps

From mine, I was on an honest fact finding mission... asking legitimate questions... and no one saw fit to give information. They seemed to present themselves to know so much, but no one gave any actual details.

I have a very intense job and I come here for information. Seems a lot of people have a lot more time to piss away on the Internets than I do. I was looking for information and got bullshit anecdotal hubris instead. For merely asking a damn question.

I don't have time to search... that's one of the reasons I come here.

I do find that sentence of yours objectionable. It was totally fucked, actually, not merely objectionable. People should not be belittled when they are looking for answers.

[Bridget Burke]

175. OK. Looking up information is "pissing time away on the Internets"

How many posts have you made on this thread? How long did that take?

[JuniperLea]

177. Hit and run posting takes very little time

Searching through pages of articles is quite another. Apples and oranges.

Like I said, it's one of the reasons I've been getting news here since 2002. Predigested, with links.

[Bridget Burke]

180. I read that Cindy was going with the Code Pink ladies (in the OP)

So I went to the Code Pink site. Not very time consuming.

[JuniperLea]

188. Bully for you

I asked questions... and I got bullshit.

[Bridget Burke]

242. Well, if you like "predigested news"....

You can't be too squeamish.

[JuniperLea]

264. What the hell has that got to do with anything?

Get a grip and pick on someone else.

[happydreams]

274. To what are you referring??

I see no venom in Bridget Burke's post. :shrug:

[JuniperLea]

279. The insults...

The inference that some choose to be ignorant, etc.

All some of us did was ask for more information and we get insulted. That's TFU.

[Mikey929]

143. Good Answer

I would hope that Cindy would also protest those who are languishing in Cuban prisons for crimes against the government, those held without bail, and those sent to jail without a trial.

Everyone, regardless of origin, deserves civil rights and justice.

[mentalsolstice]

128. Cindy's at Club Med?

Good for her, she needs a break! And who knew Club Med had school!


edit: Time to get my eyes checked... :hide:

[ellisonz]

167. Please somebody give this woman a copy of Motorcycle Diaries.

And a library card...:rofl:

[deaniac21]

173. How many of you people who are critical of Cindy have gone

two months without food to fight the war?

[NYCGirl]

181. Many people, myself included, fasted during VietNam, and we didn't do

smoothies, either.

Edited to add: I've done weeks at a time.

[happydreams]

273. Did you lose weight?

}(

[rinsd]

193. Cindy went 2 months w/out food? She drank smoothies during her "hunger strike"

Cindy's work stand on its own, its does not need embellishment.

[slackmaster]

195. If I thought hurting myself was going to help anything, I'd consider doing it

Hunger strikes are not very effective in our culture, and never have been.

[LittleClarkie]

198. This article isn't about her anti-war efforts

And losing a son didn't bestow the quality of being always right upon her. I can disagree with her politics while honoring her efforts to stop the war.

[Beaverhausen]

199. when did Cindy become an expert on medical schools?

really - who cares what she thinks about this?

What did she find at Gitmo? Isn't that why she is there?

[rman]

250. No need to be a medical expert in order to see

that there's a "medical school where 10,000 young people from 28 countries are studying free-of-charge including 91 from the United States", and to be impressed by it.

[roody]

278. They do not even have to know Spanish to receive a

scholarship. They go and spend one year or so doing all Spanish all the time. This is free also.

[Kelly Rupert]

220. Great. Thanks Cindy.

:eyes:

[NaturalHigh]

261. That's wonderful.

I just love to stay up on what impresses Cindy Sheehan. I'm also big on Courtney Love's fashion advice and Mike Tyson's tips for a loving relationship.

Oh, BTW...:sarcasm: .

[jakefrep]

263. In other news....

Cindy Sheehan shits in the woods. Film at 11.

[happydreams]

272. The fascisti FEEAR Cuban medicine!

In many ways that is more of a threat than anything else.

Cuban medicine is not hampered by the profit motive. Private profit often interferes with sound science and policy in the US to the detriment of us all. We see this in the AMA's refusal to incorporate chelation therapy and other non-intrusive remedies for things like blocked arteries where chelation has proven to be effective. There is just too much profit in surgical techniques.
Then you have the whole pharmaceutical industry that is profit driven and views less costly and more health alternatives as a threat to their "market".

Capitalism and medicine make stange bedfellows. IMO nearly as bad as capitalism and arms manufacturing.

[RummyTheDummy]

283. This is a really neat story

Good for Cindy for going over there and at least taking an interest in subjects like this. Quality medical training is important, I don't care where it is.

Now, is there any chance Cindy could maybe find something to do down there on a permanant basis? Seems like someone with Cindy's hutzpah and drive could get a lot done in Cuba.

[ellisonz]

284. Colbert on Sheehan protest chants: "Ladies, learn to rhyme."

:rofl: