Judge Upholds Religion in Veterans' Care. Where's the SCIENCE to support this b.s.?

[elehhhhna]

Agent Orange or Depleted Uranium Exposure? PRAY IT AWAY!

Judge Upholds Religion in Veterans' Care
By RYAN J. FOLEY Associated Press Writer

(AP) - MADISON, Wis.-The Department of Veterans Affairs' increasing use of religion in treating ailing veterans does not violate the separation of church and state, a federal judge has ruled.

U.S. District Judge John Shabaz dismissed a lawsuit by the Madison-based Freedom From Religion Foundation and defended the agency's practices in his decision Monday, saying religion can help patients heal and is legal when done on a voluntary basis.
...

The ruling averts a trial that was scheduled to begin later this month

http://news.findlaw.com/ap/o/632/01-10-2007/bcf10015d390a944.html

[angstlessk]

1. Didn't they do a study last year that proved prayer actually HURT sick

people? First do no harm is supposed to be a doc's mantra...if this study can be presented as proof, then they could get the docs for malpractice?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. No

the worst that prayer studies have shown is that prayers did not appear to affect healing.

As I understand it, the use of religion is voluntary--in other words, the veterans opt for it. Sort of like the Prayer Group right here at DU--you don't have to go there and ask for prayers, but it is there for those who wish to use it.

[BOSSHOG]

6. Its much eaiser to opt not to go to a group in a computer

then to avoid a zealot at your bedside.

[BOSSHOG]

2. "Religion can help patients heal?"

Prove it bitch. Put it in my fucking hand. If a patient asks for a chaplain so be it; but any rational. sain chaplain will tell you religion will not heal anything. Another fucking bush legacy; forcing zealots on our soldiers in the land of the free.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

4. Where in the article did it say

that using any religion or religious rite was being forced on anyone? As I read it, it is there for people to use if they wish to use it.

[BOSSHOG]

5. The VA's "increasing use of religion"

Increase from when? In the olden days, a VA hospital had a chaplain on staff and a chapel for family members. (I worked in one while attending college.) As it should be. In the olden days, religion wasn't used to heal patients. In the olden days, the VA had this novel idea that doctors and medicine would be used for such purposes. bush and his kind slowly but surely want to put theocracy in every part of our lives and they are patient in their endeavor.

[Lance_Boyle]

7. Not 'forced on' anyone, but force-funded by you and me.

All hail taxpayer-funded jeebus! Are there no chaplains willing to work pro bono?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. Well, I do have a problem with government funding

though I will always support the right of an individual to ask for a faith healer. Funny thing is that the healers of this type that I know heal for NO MONEY. They feel their gifts are from God, and are to be given freely. One of the most powerful healers I know earned her money as a secretary for a big company, and after her retirement lives on a pension. The other protocol of said healers is that they won't EVER force their healing on anyone-they have to be asked by the individual (or a family member) for permission to heal.

[ninkasi]

8. That part is confusing to me

The article says that the religious part is voluntary, but a spokeswoman for the group that brought the lawsuit is quoted as saying

"I think the public will be startled to learn that if you're a VA patient and you want a referral to the eye doctor, you have to have a spiritual assessment in order to do that," Gaylor said.

If, as her statement applies, a vet HAS to have a "spiritual assessment" before than can see any kind of doctor, then that's going too far. I'd like to have a little clarification of that. It looked to me, after reading the article, that the "spiritual assessment" is the part that might be more or less forced on the patient, but they can turn down the religious part if they want. Just having to have an assessment like that first, though, doesn't sound right to me.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

9. That I agree with

Why in the world would you need a spiritual assessment? And what does that mean? Realize that I have worked with people who use spiritual healing, and I've never heard that term used. Healers that I know don't care about where someone is spiritually--their goal is to help someone who is in trouble and needs healing, and they heal--period. And they do this for no money (just to stop the inevitable comment that they are hucksters fleecing the gullible of their hard earned bucks).

All I want is the opportunity to be able to use this type of healing if it is wanted (another protocol of healers like this is that they must have permission of the person or a member of their family to do their healing).

[ninkasi]

12. I agree

Absolutely, if a patient makes a request for spiritual help, then they should be able to have it. I just thought it strange that such a thing as a spiritual assessment would be necessary before being able to visit a doctor. The article made it seem like a report card, of sorts. My other reservation, is that if the religious part is like religious influence at the Air Force Academy, it will no doubt be a Christian fundamentalist type of religion.

During the last six years, evangelical groups have gained so much clout, that I'm always suspicious when religion is entwined with government. I know many people who, while not religious, are very spiritual. I guess my feeling about having a religious assessment before any other treatment is to hear little alarm bells going off in my mind.

[elehhhhna]

15. From a lawsuit's claims:

36. The VA intends pastoral services to be provided to all patients as part of standard medical treatment, allegedly in order to encourage patients to tap into their alleged spiritual resources of faith to discover comfort, strength for healing, and a renewed sense of hope.

37. The VA expects chaplains to be involved as part of the medical treatment team for all patients, and a spiritual/faith assessment is to be made of each patient admitted into the VA medical system.

38. The VA integrates chaplain services into patient medical care because the VA intends that the alleged spiritual dimension of health be substantively integrated into all aspects of patient care.

http://ffrf.org/legal/veteransaffairs.html

[ninkasi]

18. Thanks for the link

I find this very disturbing. Whenever religion gets a foot in the door, such as the items you listed, it's troubling to me. Look at these points, from the link...

42. The VA considers that each patient's need for spiritual and pastoral care must be assessed as part of the total evaluation of the patient's health care needs.

43. As part of the evaluation of each patient's health care needs, the VA requires that a spiritual and pastoral care screening assessment be provided to each patient as part of the interdisciplinary admissions process; VA chaplains then are to determine the "need" for any pastoral care interventions deemed necessary if "spiritual injury or sickness" is assessed by the chaplain.

44. The VA provides spiritual and pastoral care to all patients, including those receiving out-patient care, who obviously do not require accommodation to engage free exercise rights.

45. The VA requires each medical care facility to ensure that a program of spiritual and pastoral care is integrated into the VA's total care and treatment program as part of a holistic treatment plan.

Item #43 is especially alarming to me. When the government begins to talk about VA chaplains being able to determine the "need" for pastoral care interventions, if deemed necessary if "spiritual injury is assessed by the chaplain....this thing has gone way, way too far. Let's say I'm a vet getting treatment, and some chaplain thinks I need interventions, then this is going far beyond being a voluntary thing.

What if I'm a Wiccan, and ask a Wiccan to assess me? What if I'm an atheist, and refuse to have the pastoral care, even though a chaplain has decided, as states part of item 43, that I am in need of intervention because I have a spiritual sickness? I know that with the current administration and religion, keeping a wall of separation is the last thing they have in mind. They are doing everything possible to tear down the wall. I shudder to think of what Jefferson would have thought about this.

From reading the link, this spiritual intervention doesn't seem quite as voluntary as before.

[VelmaD]

11. While I agree with your sentiment...

and understand your intense feelings on this subject (I share them)...was there really a reason for using "bitch"? It just seemed kinda gratuitous.

[spoony]

14. Brush away the froth

and you will be able to see clearly, then you can read the article and what it really says. There's literally nothing here to object to.

[porphyrian]

13. There is some evidence that belief can increase chances and speed recovery...

...notice that I said "belief," though. The patient has to believe in it. It works the same way as voodoo or gypsy curses work on believers, just in a good way. If nothing else, it helps counter depression, which lowers chances and lengthens recovery.

[NaturalHigh]

16. As long as it's voluntary...

what's the problem?

[elehhhhna]

17. read post 15 -- the assessment is mandatory.

[etherealtruth]

19. What is the "spiritual assessment"?

I worked for a very large Hospice (many years ago). As part of the admission process a spiritual assessment was done (it actually consisted of a few questions) ... the intent/goal of this was to determine if the patient needed any assistance in meeting their own personal spiritual needs. There was no hidden agenda; it came down to what we could do to help make a persons last days meaningful and comfortable (as defined by the patient themselves).

I have no idea what the VA's assessment is. If it is similiar to what I experienced I actually think it's a good thing.