Why is prostitution illegal, but pornography isn't?

[nebula]

in both cases, women are paid to have sex. So why has pornography always been perfectly legal in the US, but not prostitution? Does the law provide an explanation for this glaring discrepancy?

[porphyrian]

1. Technically, in pornography, people are paid to have the sex filmed or photographed...

...not to have sex directly. So, legally, it can be argued to not be the same as prostitution.

Frankly, I don't think either should be illegal at all, and those in the field should be offered excellent professional medical care.

[OwnedByFerrets]

2. Its absolutely absurd that prostitution is illegal.......

its nothing more than the moral minority having their say.

[porphyrian]

6. Prohibitionary laws NEVER work. I say we get rid of them all. - n/t

[Crandor]

75. How about that prohibition against murder? nt

[porphyrian]

90. Has it stopped murder yet?

To expand on this, I may need to explain that what I mean by "prohibitionary law" is a law such as Prohibition, the outlawing of alcohol originally, then any number of laws following it which prohibit individual behaviors based on a group's perception of morality rather than any actual violation of Constitutional rights (often violating an individual's Constitutional rights in the process). I did not mean any law which prohibits anything - which is what most laws do. Perhaps I should have capitalized the "p."

However, speaking of laws in general, NONE of them really prohibit anything; they simply provide a means of punishment after the fact. So, in that sense, prohibitionary laws don't exist. That's not what I meant, though.

[jgraz]

121. Not the same at all

Prohibition is all about denying people's natural, hedonistic desires. Most of us crave sex, but we don't derive pleasure from murdering people.

[nebula]

3. Huh?

so its against the law to have paid sex, unless its done in front of a camera?

[porphyrian]

8. I didn't really say that. I'm just telling you the difference between the two as I...

...understand it.

[stonecoldsober]

4. So as long as I film it, I'm ok?

[porphyrian]

5. Well, I wouldn't say that. You better have good lawyers writing your paperwork.

However, as I understand it, that is the difference.

[nebula]

17. Pornography IS prostitution

Since prostitution is people getting paid to have real sex.

Porn stars are in fact paid prostitutes.

[porphyrian]

22. No, I don't agree with you. - n/t

[nebula]

26. Why not?

What is the difference between a porn star and a 'streetwalker?'

There is no substantial difference! They are both paid for performing real sex for real money. A porn star IS in fact a prostitute, and the pornographer is in fact her pimp.


(Not including women who only take off their clothes for money but don't have sex).

[porphyrian]

43. I basically said already. And it should be noted - I think both should be completely legal.

Prostitution is trading money for a sex act. Pornography is trading money for a recording (film or picture) of a sex act. It's the same difference as paying an athlete to run a marathon and paying that same athlete to have pictures taken of them running a marathon. I think you won't see the difference because you're opposed to both.

Prohibitionary laws never work. In fact, they usually work in the opposite way intended.

[mongo]

The difference is the Adult performers are ACTING

Under hot lighting conditions, with 20 people standing around with cameras, lights, microphones, etc.

The performers also have much more leeway who they work with than your average streetwalker.

[blogslut]

172. Technically

It's only legal to film porn in L.A. county. ;)

[mongo]

177. Really? I thought that ruling would effect the whole state,

since it was made by the CA supreme court.

Thanks for clearing that up.

[Jed Dilligan]

86. Simple answer:

The porn performer is having sex with another porn performer. He/she is not doing it for the benefit of the partner; they are doing it for the benefit of the camera. Prostitutes are paid to get people off. Porn performers get each other off, or pretend to do so, for the purpose of creating a work of art. Maybe you don't like the art, but once you start making those kinds of distinctions in the law you're on the verge of banning novels with sex scenes.

Chloe Sevigny blew Vincent Gallo in the (bad) art movie "The Brown Bunny." Is Sevigny a prostitute? Is Gallo?

I think prostitution should be legal as well as porn, but in any case I don't think they're the same thing.

[hedgehog]

72. I tend to agree.

I think the difference is the amount of money involved and the fact that the sex is hidden from sight. No one has to know what's going on in that warehouse and thecash generated at all levels is amazing.

[Der Blaue Engel]

126. So long as one sexual partner is not paying the other

for the sex, yes.

[Lucky Luciano]

7. I think people don't want it in their neghborhoods because

there is a strong correlation with prostitution and other problems...often they are desperate women who may also steal and/or have a major drug problem (wanna find needles in your neighborhood?)...along with their pimps etc...

That said, the more high end version that is very discrete with the women getting paid a lot (so they are not as desperate) seems harmless....and in this case, it is the men that aere desperate! haha

[VelmaD]

12. What does it say...

about our society that the answer for desperate women is to sell their bodies? *sigh* That makes me sadder than I have words for.

Don't get me wrong. I'm a very sex-positive person. I have a side job editing gay erotica. But I'm all about consensual sex. And prostitution ain't that...neither is more porn than some people (on this site even) are willing to admit.

In a perfect world, where women hadn't been oppressed for millenia, I would be all in favor of voluntary sex work. But as long as we're still living in a society that treats women like pieces of meat and pays us less for doing the same work men do and basically considers us inferior...then sex work may only serve to help perpetuate a lot of the negative stereotypes men have about women.

[Sparkly]

19. I gotta disagree, Velma...

"But I'm all about consensual sex. And prostitution ain't that..."

I think if we're talking about adults -- without dishonesty, coercion, etc. -- it IS consensual sex.

[VelmaD]

23. When it's a matter of selling your body...

to survive...is it really consensual? If someone has to pay you to fuck them...it doesn't really meet my definition of consenting.

[Sparkly]

25. See, I still think it is consensual.

Sex work, like any other work, is a choice -- even if for some, it's a desperate choice. Some people steal to survive, others sell drugs, others clean toilets... Whether these are illegal or considered degrading or both, I think these are choices.

It's sad to have only desperate choices, but if someone chooses to make this deal, it is consensual, in my view.

[VelmaD]

28. I guess we have to agree to disagree...

because we apparently have vastly differing views on what it means to consent.

My big problem with both prostitution and some porn is the way it contributes to the commodification of women. We already live in a society that treats women as objects and our bodies are used to sell everything. The selling of our bodies for sex is just the most in-your-face version of this.

And don't forget, a lot of the women who are working as prostitutes world-wide did not choose it...they were kidnapped and forced into it. Sex slavery is one of those problems that gets trotted out on a slow news day so that people can wring their hands over it but nothing ever really gets done about it.

[Sparkly]

38. Again, I'm talking about consenting adults without dishonesty or coercion...

Sex slavery is out of the question.

I agree that women's bodies are used to sell everything from cars to magazines. No question. So why is a woman prohibited from making choices about what she wants to do with her own body, for her own reasons? Why isn't it HER choice? (Also, there are male prostitutes, as well...)

[VelmaD]

44. If we lived in a world...

where gender equality was established...I would agree with you one-hundred percent. But we don't. Until we do, establishing whether a woman is really selling her body by choice is a tricky issue.

I'm going to babble a bit. I do that...just a thought I have on this subject and since the thread is here...I think most people don't want to take a good, hard look at prostitution. They want to believe it's all like "Pretty Woman". It's high-end hookers making a ton of money having sex in glamorous hotel rooms with hot guys. But that's not the reality most of the time.

[Sparkly]

47. The question is, whose choice is it?

I think it's the woman's (or man's) choice.

[unpossibles]

83. I hear what you're saying, and am not trying to say it's the same at all, but...

as someone who worked in the food industry for a dozen years, I did not have a choice then either, even though sometimes I did not want to do it. Obviously, I did have a choice, as I decided to go back to school and eventually got a better job, which was hard and took years, but....

I know, I know, someone's body is much more personal, but both jobs can be seen as degrading by many, and most people I met in the food industry were not there for the glamour, but because it paid decently and had somewhat flexible schedules. That said, there were many people who treat food workers as brain-dead scum, and that gets old.

But yes, I realize we're talking about apples and oranges, I just wanted to say that there are many legal and "vanilla" jobs that people do but not "by choice."

[Sparkly]

87. The "degrading" argument

I agree with what you're saying. A prostitute/activist named Norma Jean Almodovar (who wrote an autobiography, "Cop to Call Girl") was once asked in an interview (I think by John Stossel) about sex work being degrading. She said (paraphrase): "People consider cleaning toilets degrading, too, but we don't arrest them for it."

[Retired AF Dem]

179. So paid sex with hot guys is good

but paid sex with Joe six pack is bad?

[mongo]

85. The adult entertainment being made and sold in the US

is NOT made by sex slaves. There is a never ending line of women wanting to enter the industry for what they perceive as "easy money".

Given that, and all the laws requiring a producer to keep records to prove that their performers are over 18, porn is not being made by illegal sex slaves being transported into this country.

And almost all the porn sold in America is made in America, or by an American company. The only exception to that is Private Entertainment, that makes big budget explicit films in Europe (mostly Italy).

[Der Blaue Engel]

132. I have a number of friends who are prostitutes

They are all educated women who made a conscious choice to go into sex work. They aren't doing it to survive, they're doing it because for them it's fun, and it pays well.

There are certainly many women who do not have that choice, but that doesn't make prostitution by definition nonconsensual.

[On the Road]

158. That is My Experience as Well

due having coworkers who turned tricks on the side, conversations with outcall prostitutes when I drove a cab, and having dated a call girl during the time she was working.

I never picked up a hint of coercion in any of it. The closest was my former girlfriend who was paying back taxes her ex-husband owed as well as legal fees to get her son back from out of state. She once said that she asked herself "why am I doing this?" in the middle of a session, but it was the same sort of comment anyone might make about a job with some drawbacks.

I don't deny that coercion exists -- that's pretty much the stereotype of the city streetwalker. But what I saw was normal people from different walks of life making practical decisions. One girl said she wanted to keep her horse, but stable fees were very expensive. The girls at the 24-hour diner, who would literally go out to a car in the parking lot, seemed to waste their money and do it more out of laziness and lack of imagination.

I even had one call girl as a taxi customer who was a political radical and who said something to the effect of: "I was going out with businessmen who would spend $300 on dinner and a show, and I would end up doing the same thing afterwards. It took me awhile to realize 'I don't need the dinner and a show. I *do* need the $300. Now I'm taking the system's money and using it against it."

The reality is always more complex than you can imagine.

[Rosemary2205]

46. I wonder how many

women in the porno/sex trade are actually slaves.............

[VelmaD]

49. more than the industry wants you to think

Like I stated above...I edit gay erotica for money so I cannot be accused of being anti-sex or even completely anti-porn. But I think people need to be aware that the people they're watching may not have been consenting to what was done to them. And for me that possibility sucks a lot of the fun out of watching.

[mongo]

91. Do you have any examples/ links

of an American Adult Entertainment comapany that was busted for using sex Slaves in the last 15 years?

I didn't think so.

[VelmaD]

107. To mongo since he blocked me...

you shouldn't ask me a question in a post KNOWING damn well I can't reply because you already have me blocked.

[hughee99]

27. Pays women less for the same work?

Pornography is one of the few industries where women make FAR MORE than men for basically the same work.

[VelmaD]

31. go back and actually read my entire post

I'm not talking about what women are paid to do porn. I'm talking about the overall gender pay gap and how it fits into a society that undervalues women...and how that can push women on the margins into sex work because it's what they have to do for the money to survive.

There...you don't even have to bother with reading comprehension skills...I did it for you.

[hughee99]

50. I read the whole thing...

And yes and I agree that there is a significant gender pay gap, but your stretching when you try to blame prostitution on it.

Do women make 1/2 as much at McDonald's? Significantly less at entry level jobs? At the bottom of the ladder, the pay gap is very small. If you don't pay someone much for a job, you can't pay someone else "significantly less" for the same job. The pay gap becomes more apparent as you move up the ladder, but people who are up high enough on the ladder to notice the pay gap generally aren't forced into prostitution unless they have other issues (drug problems, other significant expenses, etc...) It's those at the bottom who are "forced" into prostitution because their choices are basically entry level jobs (where they make the same shitty pay as men) or prostitution.

[VelmaD]

54. Actually the way women are forced down into the bottom...

tier of jobs in terms of pay is a big part of the pay gap. It's not about one woman at McDonald's pay compared to one man at McDonald's pay. Have you not heard the term "pink collar ghetto"? Jobs that are typically done by women, even at the bottom end, are generally paid less than similar jobs that are typically done by men, even at the bottom end.

And I'm not directly blaming prostitution on the pay gap...both are related back to the same cause...a society that doesn't really value women. Combine that with a society that commodifies women's bodies and the result is pretty easy to see coming.

[VelmaD]

115. yet again...to mongo...

why did you even bother to post if you were going to block me and forestall any conversation?

[mongo]

93. And in Appalacia at least

the class pay gap forces men into coal mines where the work slowly kills them.

It is NOT the gender pay gap that forces women into sex work. It is a class pay gap, or drug addiction that causes most street level prostitution.

[DuaneBidoux]

131. As an anthropologists however let me relate to you something ironic and unexpected with ALL cultures

Without exception in the entire world where the status of women is highest sexuality is most open, including porn, and in some cases prostitution. Without exception where the status of women is low porn is controlled tightly or usually outlawed and forget about prostitution it can be seriously punished (as can porn in these same societies).

When the status of women is moving up in a society porn is becoming more prevalent. When the status of women is falling in a society porn is becoming less prevalent. In countries like Sweeden or the Netherlands the status both legally and socially of women is among the highest in the world, and both porn and prostitution are legal. In societies such as the Middle Eastern societies the status of women is very low and porn is illegal and punishable in some cases by death, and obviously, women don\'t even have the freedom to show their own faces.

It does not even seem to be possible, no matter the laws passed, to change this inverse correlation. I have some theories why, but the reality is that anthropologists don\'t truly know why this is. But think about this yourself: who is it that is most against porn in this country? The right wing. Who is it that is most against expanding the rights of women? The right wing.

You see the attitude on this thread about pornography generally. And you know what the attitude of progressive people are about the expansion of women\'s rights. There is something that makes women inherently inferior when we say that they must be \"protected\" by men. Anyway, this last bit makes up some of my speculation about this interesting correlation--but the reality is that it is probably much more complex than this.

[Lurking Dem]

149. That's a fascinating observation.

I hadn't really thought about the connection before. Thanks!

[VelmaD]

152. An alternative theory

Perhaps the increase in porn and prostitution in societies where women are trying to gain status is a part of a backlash. Men need porn, and sometimes violent porn at that, to re-create that feeling of control over women that they feel slipping away. Same with prostitution. They can have control in that interaction in a way that they can't when the women in their real lives are free to tell them to sod off.

What I feel is more likely is a confluence of several almost contradictory cuases. What you mentioned. What I just pointed to. Increased porn aimed at women as they are seen as a market in a more liberated society. Increased visibility of porn due to the internet. The increased sexualization of our culture in a way that is male-centered but harms everyone.

Not everyone who doesn't like porn is a fundy nutjob. I'm all about expanding the rights of women. I just don't see the right to be sexually exploited as jerkoff material for men as a right worth fighting for.

And that's my big problem...the sexuality of our culture is make-centered. Until that changes, then prostitution and porn will continue to be tool that do women harm rather than completely healthy expressions of the woman's sexuality.

[DuaneBidoux]

176. there is an assumption you make however that porn and erotica are inherently anti woman.

While there can be no doubt that some is I personally am unwilling to say that all porn, or even the majority of it, is anti woman.

But here is one thing you can be sure of: no matter what the intent, however noble it may be, there is simply no way to escape the correlation, thus if we were to begin to more severly restrict portn the status of women would soon begin to follow downward. It has always been the case (100% of the time).

[Zhade]

180. As an OT aside, your sigline...

...you realize that is not an original Will Pitt quote, right? He borrowed it from Rage Against The Machine.

Didn't know if you knew that, and the attribution to Pitt has bugged me for some time. He didn't come up with it.

</fair attribution>

[tabasco]

18. If prostitution was legalized and regulated, people wouldn't have to worry

about it in their neighborhoods. It would be in the red light districts like in Germany and Holland.

[unpossibles]

79. but it is not the act itself which creates the problems as much as the prohibition of it

in areas where it's legal and regulated do they have the same problems? I don't know, although I doubt they do. I do know that legal prostitutes tend to be able to keep the money they make and are in a much safer environment.

Much like drug laws, and the alcohol prohibition, the criminalization and resulting black market cause many more problems than the initial "evil."

For the record, I have never gone to a prostitute, nor do I ever plan on it, but I think it should be legal.

[Warpy]

9. Not all porn involves sex, and some that does is

simulated sex. One has to be aware of camera angles and lighting at all times, so there is nothing less arousing than having to do it for a camera.

(I'm a nurse and I've met a few of my sisters in that biz, so back off)

Also, a big difference is that prostitution involves temptresses and "nice" men, not two (or more) paid performers. That's one reason people think it's icky as hell and want to keep it illegal, as opposed to porn. Porn is also supposed to provide that erotic outlet so that workadaddies won't be tempted to stray and get paid BJs from street hookers and sometimes it might work that way.

The law is a ass, thank you Mr. Bumble, and also legalizes two of the worst drugs out there while keeping the closest thing we know to a benign psychoactive drug strictly illegal. If you're looking for logic in any of the nanny state laws, forget it. They're all inconsistent with a society of free people and inconsistent with reality.

[NYCGirl]

13. "Hardcore" pornography (which is what the OP is talking about) does not have

simulated sex.

[JHB]

20. The OP may intend to be talking about "hardcore"...

...but doesn't actually note that.

[Warpy]

21. Here ya go

some /sʌm; unstressed səm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. being an undetermined or unspecified one: Some person may object.
2. (used with plural nouns) certain: Some days I stay home.
3. of a certain unspecified number, amount, degree, etc.: to some extent.
4. unspecified but considerable in number, amount, degree, etc.: We talked for some time. He was here some weeks.
5. Informal. of impressive or remarkable quality, consequence, extent, etc.: That was some storm.
–pronoun
6. certain persons, individuals, instances, etc., not specified: Some think he is dead.
7. an unspecified number, amount, etc., as distinguished from the rest or in addition: He paid a thousand dollars and then some.
–adverb
8. (used with numerals and with words expressing degree, extent, etc.) approximately; about: Some 300 were present.
9. Informal. to some degree or extent; somewhat: I like baseball some. She is feeling some better today.
10. Informal. to a great degree or extent; considerably: That's going some.


—Usage note As pronouns, both some and any may be used in affirmative or negative questions: Will you (won't you) have some? Do you (don't you) have any? But some is used in affirmative statements and answers: You may have some. Yes, I'd like some. And in negative statements and answers, any is the usual choice: I don't care for any. No, I can't take any.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)
Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2006.
American Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source
some (sŭm) Pronunciation Key
adj.

1. Being an unspecified number or quantity: Some people came into the room. Would you like some sugar?
2. Being a portion or an unspecified number or quantity of a whole or group: He likes some modern sculpture but not all.
3. Being a considerable number or quantity: She has been directing films for some years now.
4. Unknown or unspecified by name: Some man called.
5. Logic Being part and perhaps all of a class.
6. Informal Remarkable: She is some skier.


pron.

1. An indefinite or unspecified number or portion: We took some of the books to the auction. See Usage Note at every.
2. An indefinite additional quantity: did the assigned work and then some.


adv.

1. Approximately; about: Some 40 people attended the rally.
2. Informal Somewhat: some tired.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/some

[The2ndWheel]

10. Because governments and corporations have been

too stupid to figure out how to get their cut?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

11. I suspect that the answer is historical rather than logical.

Some thoughts:

:- Prostitution has been around in significant quantities for much longer than pornography involving real people, which obviously postdates the camera, so attitudes to it were formed much earlier, in less liberated times.

:-Prostitution spreads STDs, pornogrpahy doesn't.

:-Prostitution is a far bigger risk for those involved (mostly, but not exclusively, women) than pornogrpahy.

:-Pornography overlaps with freedom-of-speech issues. Prostitution doesn't.

[hedgehog]

74. Wasn't there a scare in the porn community because a major

male star turned up with AIDS? As far as I know, porn doesn't emphasize safe sex.

[mongo]

94. All performers in the US industry are tested every 2 weeks now

for all major STDs. They were being tested monthly, before the latest scare, when a perfomer came back from Brazil, after working with a performer with a forged health certificate. They use a paper system in Brazil, but in the US confirmation is done by phone.

No test, no work.

[hedgehog]

95. I goggled the subject after I posted

and came across a list of porn stars who died of AIDS, suicide, drug overdose, etc. Of course, I have no idea how this population compares to the general population, but it was an impressive list.

[mongo]

102. Yeah, there was a problem before they started testing

and there is a tolerance for drug use in some companies -- as long as you show up for work.

But overall, this isn't the same industry it was in the 1980's.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

168. Producers may be at risk, but consumers aren't.

If a "valued member of society" is using prostitutes then they may catch something from them, but while people making porn may be at risk of diseases, people buying it aren't.

[Squatch]

14. Prostitution is illegal?!? Oh, shit....

[On the Road]

154. ROFL

:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Beg to differ, but porn has NOT always been perfectly legal -

it has essentially only been legal since the 70s (or was it the 60s?). It was illegal to send it through the US postal service, and in many states simple possession of it was illegal. It even went to the Supreme Court, trying to define what porn was and I think it was Frankfurter said the famous quote, "I can't tell you what it is, but I know it when I see it", and left it to the states to regulate.

[mongo]

98. The Miller case was 1973

which determined the three prong test for "obscenity" and paved the way for distribution of pornography

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

Actually making porn didn't become legal in California (the only state where it is legal to produce), until 1988 with the people vs Freeman case.

http://www.rame.net/faq/part11.html#xtocid21967

And it was Judge Potter Stewart who made the famous "I know it when I see it" quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potter_Stewart

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. That does make it post-Frankfurter -- you know whose quote that

was?
EDIT : Never mind - you already told me. Thanks.

[maxsolomon]

150. and interestingly, at that time prostitution was still essentially legal in some

places in the US outside cathouses in Nevada - Wallace, Idaho along i-90 that i know of. so when Porn became legal, prostitution became illegal?

i don't think many murkins understand just how prevalent brothels have been in this country - and how little moral judgement was conferred on their patrons - think Seattle during the Klondike Gold Rush - or ye olde west.

[Sparkly]

16. Good question!

I never thought of that. And I've long contended prostitution should be legal.

I could only guess that the industry could claim the actors are paid for their "acting," which happens to include sex. But honestly, I have no idea. :shrug:

[nebula]

30. I stand corrected in that regard

but it doesn't explain why pornography remains widely lawful today while prostitution isn't.

[onenote]

65. here's a long article on the issue

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/12/colb.pornography/index.html

Personally, I think the distinction is that in the case of pornography, the actors are not being paid to have sex. They are being paid to appear in a film. If they commit an illegal act while being filmed, they might be liable for that illegal act. Thus, if the plot of a film called for an actor to kill someone, or to use heroin, they would be prosecutable for using heroin or murder. But that would be the case whether they were paid to be in the film or not. Where the crime involves the exchange of money and the money is exchanged for a different purpose, I'd argue no crime.

[mongo]

99. Please see my links directly above Sparkly. n/t

[sammythecat]

24. Makes no sense to me

If I buy pornography I am paying people to have sex so I can watch. If I were to offer money to two people on the street to have sex so I could watch, that would be a crime. I'd be soliciting prostitution. What's the diff?

Why can a girl, or guy, have sex with a different partner every day of their life for free and it's legal, but as soon as they ask for a nickel it becomes a crime? They can give it away all they want, but they can't sell it. What is the logic here?

[gatorboy]

29. Taxes, my friend.

It's easier to tax the sales of pornography. On the other hand, any woman can go out and sell her body without giving the gorvernment its cut.

[nebula]

36. But if brothels were legalized

prostitutes would be off the streets and doing business from a single, regulated location.

The problem of tax collection would be eliminated.

[Selatius]

41. That would not pass in the US given the socially conservative nature of America.

America, compared to Europeans, have not been very socially liberal.

[Hubert Flottz]

32. If prostitution was not legal the entire GOP and the Media would

be behind bars now...They've sold their bodies and souls too, to EXXON.

[MoonRiver]

33. Pornography is big business, often produced by mega media corporations.

Prostitution just helps a few poor souls eek out a living. This clearly demonstrates our culture's values. It's not really about sex. It's about corporate power vs. individual survival.

[VelmaD]

34. prostitution is becoming more and more...

a big business. The trade in women as sex slaves is one of the world's dirty little secrets. It's just that the people making money there hand over fist don't have big media in their pockets to help "pimp" for them.

[mongo]

106. PROVE IT

Prove that an American company has been making porn with sex slaves in the last 15 years.

[VelmaD]

117. mongo...learn to read

I didn't say anything in this post about porn in the US using sex-slaves. But way to project your own issues onto everything everyone else says. What I said was that prostitution is becoming big business WORLD WIDE. Someone downthread has already talked about the way women are essentially kidnapped in Eastern Europe and other parts of the world. Jeebus h christ.

[mongo]

103. For the most part porn is made by small privately held companies.

Yeah, they get distribution deals with cable and satilite companies, but saying that porn is produced by mega media corportations is like saying Farenheit 911 was produced by mega media companies because it was shown in theaters and on pay-per-view cable.

[Lurking Dem]

108. That is exactly right.

Almost every porn producer I am aware of runs a very small operation and is scraping nickels together. There may be a few "soft porn" producers on Cinemax or something that are bigger - the sets are much better. But it hardly qualifies as "porn".

[Redbear]

35. Prostitution's illegality is a public health/related crime issue, not a moral issue

So while the morality of the two can be argued as equivalent, morality isn't the issue.

[Sparkly]

39. Hm, stats I've read don't show that...

Although I haven't seen such stats for a long time.

Further, should promiscuity that doesn't involve money be outlawed if it's a matter of "public health?"

[Redbear]

141. I agree that the facts may not back it up, just that public health is the justification

and that justication explains the dichotomy.


Down the dark road we are traveling, outlawing of all nonmarital sex could occur in our lifetimes.

[montanto]

37. Variation on the theme:

I know it doesn't answer the OP but its similar. How can sodomy be illegal but you see it in porn? Are porn stars committing more than one crime?

[nebula]

40. LOL

Good point.

The law doesn't make any damn sense.

[VelmaD]

45. Sodomy is not illegal...

the Texas anti-sodomy statute was struck down by the Supreme Court several years ago.

[montanto]

48. Its not??

:wtf: where did I get the idea that it was? I'll do some research. thanks

[VelmaD]

51. I met one of my favorite partners on DU...

the day the Texas anti-sodomy law was struck down. I wrote a post about how I hoped they didn't get rid of the entire Texas indecency statute before I had had a chance to violate every section in it. He responded. And the rest is history. I really should send the Supreme Court a thank you note. ;)

[Rosemary2205]

42. Pornography is not legal everywhere in the US.

In fact, just looking at your favorite porn site while in Alabama is a crime.

[JunkYardDogg]

52. Prostitution is legal in the White House-ask Jeff Gannon

'course he's not a woman, which is obviously makes him infinitely more desirable for the
GOP Homosexual Agenda- Rove, Mehlman, Haggard, et al

[rpgamerd00d]

53. You are all wrong. It has to do with related crime.

Drugs aren't illegal because the Govt wants to ruin your day. They are illegal because they are addictive and people rob and commit periphery crimes (robbery, mugging, theft) in order to pay for drugs.

Prostitution is the same, in essence. While it isn't technically addictive (chemically), it has the same profile as drugs - other crimes are committed in periphery (assault, rape)

[Sparkly]

55. Seems like circular reasoning to me.

It's illegal because it involves "other crimes committed in periphery..." I think that's because it is illegal.

Same with pot. The illegality sends it underground, and that sets up all sorts of other risks.

Do you have stats to back your assertion about prostitution leading to assault and rape? How many such crimes involve a pimp? If prostitution were legal, pimps would be out of business.

[VelmaD]

57. assaults and rapes of prostitutes are committed by...

pimps, customers, and men who are neither. All three groups know they can probably beat up or rape a prostitute with little or no consequences. That's likely why some serial killers target them...they know no one really cares about the women they're killing.

[Sparkly]

59. If it were legal

women could hire protection, file police reports, openly screen clients, and men would be under normal levels of threat for arrest.

The illegality fuels these dangers.

[VelmaD]

63. That would be the one up side...

I can see from legalization. Though it's likely that the serial killer thing would still be an issue since their thing for prostitutes is a combination of easy opportunity and fucked up sexual issues. But at least then maybe the cops would take it more seriously.

I have a feeling we could seriously highjack this thread if we wanted to to discuss issues with the "normal levels of threat for arrest" men actually face for rape. :)

[rpgamerd00d]

60. I'm not saying I agree with it, I'm just saying that was the rationale.

Of course, the reasoning is balony because in Nevada (outside of Las Vegas) prostitution is legal, and virtually no assaults/rapes occur in legal whore houses (which have tight security).

[Sparkly]

61. Gotcha. nt

[unpossibles]

89. do people still rob and murder for alcohol and cigarettes?

Because they did kill and steal for alcohol not very long ago in our country.

Now that you can go to the corner store and get it (and remember too that politicians always had their booze sources back then, even the ones who were for the prohibition), and there is not so much stigma, there is less crime that surrounds it.

I don't think it's that hard to see real life examples of this.

[Zhade]

181. Um, bullshit. Millions of people use drugs without committing crimes.

For example, people who use marijuana don't generally rob/mug/steal for weed. I never have, even before I became a medical marijuana patient.

EDIT: I see this is not the view you hold, but just their rationale. Cool.

[Atman]

56. Uh...men are paid, too.

Although, to be fair, men would probably PAY to do it, but that's another matter altogether.

But, I've always wondered that, too. Either way, the subjects are getting paid for sex. I don't see much difference.

.

[SaveOurDemocracy]

58. Anyone who claims to be pro-choice...

should not have a problem with prostitution and/or pornography that involves freely consenting adults.

[Atman]

62. The trouble isn't freely consenting adults...

...it's the paidly consenting adults that are causing trouble.

:)

But, I agree with you more than 100%. No one should give a flying fig what any other consenting adults do with/to each other to get their rocks off. If both parties are willing, eager, and legal then why should ANYONE care who puts whose thingy where what or why?

.

[VelmaD]

64. the issue is ALL about consent

And as I said upthread...if you have to pay me to fuck you did I really consent?

This is personal for me in ways I don't really have good words for. I believe that consensual sex is a great gift the universe gave us and when it's reduced to a commodity it does something to the human spirit. I watch some porn and I look at the faces of the actors and actresses and there's just no joy there at all. I tell people all the time...if my face ever looks like that while I'm having sex...just shoot me because all the joy has gone out of my life.

[Sparkly]

66. Again, consent to be paid for something is still consent!

I respect your views, opinions, feelings about sex and money. So you have a perfect right to choose never to mix sex and money.

But others have a right to make their own choices for themselves, and it's not the government's business, in my opinion, to arrest them because it's "unjoyful" or for any other reason.

Like the arguments about abortion, nobody who's pro-choice is saying we all must have abortions; nobody who's pro-choice about sex work is saying we all must engage in prostitution. It's about personal choice.

(Edited to add: the looks on faces of people working at McDonald's are pretty joyless, too. I'm just sayin' -- people do lots of things for money that they don't enjoy doing. And not all sex workers dislike what they do.)

[VelmaD]

68. one big difference between someone chosing...

to have an abortion and someone chosing to engage in sex for money...is that prostitution and the more egregiously exploitative porn have negative externalities...particularly for women. I don't want this thread to turn into another long list of competing research studies, because there are studies that say porn doesn't contribute to rape, and there are other studies that show it does have an impact on how people view women generally and victims of rape. It's one of the oldest fights on DU. :)

What I really want is to live in a world where your opinion on this makes sense for me. What I want is a world where men and women are treated as equals. Where rape laws are taken seriously. Where no one is ever forced into sex. Where all work is considered enobling and there are good paying jobs for everyone. And where sex itself isn't seen as dirty and sex work doesn't stigmatize a person who does it. But that's not the world we live in.

[Sparkly]

78. Here's another point of view you might not like...

Are you familiar with COYOTE? Norma Jean Almodovar? Carol Leigh? These are good sources of the other point of view.

Here's a perspective you might not like, relating to the disparity of men and women when it comes to sex work (who pays money, who receives money, who's holding more power)... In a sense, sex is one area where women have MORE power from the inequality of our culture.

There is such enormous value put on women's sexuality -- in contrast to men's -- with so much hype and moralistic hysteria and repression and stigmas etc., that there's far more of a market for women's sex work. I dare say (though I have no data here) that there is more need or commercial demand, if you will, among men for sex with women, than among women for sex with men. In general (and this doesn't apply to all men of course, nor does anything I'm saying about women apply to all women), men are already "free of charge;" relatively speaking, men are rather "easy," to be blunt about it. It's no wonder, since there's far less cultural punishment over that ("Boys will be boys!" "Studs!" "Notches in the bedpost!" etc...) not to mention no risk of pregnancy.

A woman can, if she chooses, hurdle those mores and stigmas and command huge sums of money for sex with men; while men have far, far less opportunity to earn money having sex with women. Some see it as taking fair advantage of an inequality that places greater value -- and heavier weight and burdens -- on women's sexuality. In this case, it's the women who have the control and advantage in an equation involving sex, which isn't the case in many other interactions.

Just another way of thinking about it. I know some may hate this idea, so I'm going out on a limb here...

[Atman]

67. You're watching the wrong porn.

:)

.

[VelmaD]

69. well, you gotta slog through a lot of bad porn...

to find any that's really worth watching. It's a rough job, but somebody has to do it. ;)

And yes...it amuses the hell outta me that this is post 69 on this thread. *snort*

[mongo]

118. here I agree with you whole-heartedly

But if you want better porn, the way to get it is to completely legalize it and remove its stigma.

[Lurking Dem]

73. I think the belief that sex

is a "gift" or has any purpose related to the human spirit is misguided. It's the same notion that makes virginity important, makes acts like anal sex or polyamory taboo, and dashes hopes of couples who placed such a high spirituality component to their lovemaking that nothing could live up to the hype.

Viva porn! Viva prostitution! Viva universal biological functions that have multiple expressions!

[VelmaD]

109. Well, considering I'm polyamorous...

Don't think virginity is important either. Anal sex...fun when done right. I suppose I blow your theory out of the water.

One can think sex is a "gift" without being a fundamentalist nutjob.

[bicentennial_baby]

116. Um, polyamory isn't an act...

but thank you for equating it with anal sex, really...

[Lurking Dem]

119. What's wrong with anal sex?

What's wrong with spanking? What's wrong with S&m? What's wrong with getting off pissing on each other in the shower if that's what people want to do?

Seriously. I don't get where people draw lines on GOOD/BAD or RIGHT/WRONG outside of consent where sex is concerned. I truly don't.

[bicentennial_baby]

125. Absolutely nothing

I didn't say that...But, being poly is about love, it's not swinging, it's not sex focused, as so many think. That's all.

[Lurking Dem]

134. I think we are talking past each other.

As a person in a poly relationship, you know that there are people who look at your sex life and go, "Eeeeeew! That's so WRONG! If she REALLY loved him she wouldn't need to be with so-and-so. If he REALLY loved her he wouldn't be able to truly love this other person!"

You KNOW that's bullshit. I know that's bullshit. Love is an amazing thing. The more you give away the more you have. It's no different than saying you could only love one child. It's ridiculous on its face.

But it's that attitude I was driving at. I think that attitude (toward whatever consentual schtick someone may engage in - whether sex based or relationship based) is dangerous to freedom of sexual expression.

Someone in a D/s relationship does not view their relationship on the same level as the sex they engage in while in that relationship. Yet the sex is still an expression of that relationship just as sitting at the feet of their Master/Mistress and gazing at them adoringly is.

[bicentennial_baby]

137. There's the problem right there...

"you know that there are people who look at your sex life"

The problem is that not many people, including some here, seem able to view my relationship as anything more than sex...which says a lot more about them than me.

But other than that, I think we agree. I just *hate* the sex focus on being poly. If people would take the time to educate themselves, I guess it wouldn't be a problem, but I'm not holding my breath for that.

:)

[Lurking Dem]

138. I often hate the sex focus on D/s

but I have to deal with the world as it works, not how I wish it was.

:pals:

[bicentennial_baby]

139. True dat

:pals:

[mongo]

120. LOL!!!

and I agree with you...

[sniffa]

130. you shouLd see our sex Life

it's nothing but swinging orgies aLL day and night. :bounce:

poLy, poLy, poLy get your adverbs here.

[bicentennial_baby]

133. so THAT's why i'm so tired all the time

whew! thanks for clearing that up! :D

and here i thought it was from cooking, cleaning, cuddling and being really happy and in love...Stoopid me x(

;)

[VelmaD]

144. I would hope with 3 of you...

you wouldn't be tired from cooking and cleaning. If it doesn't result in reduced housework I'm gonna have to seriously reconsider this whole being poly thing. ;)

[LoZoccolo]

81. You could say the same of someone having expectations of someone else...

...before they'll sleep with them. That's "payment" just the same.

[mondo joe]

92. If you have to pay someone to cook did they truly consent?

If you have to pay someone to look in your throat and give you antibiotics did the doctor truly consent?

[sniffa]

96. ...

:rofl:

[High Plains]

123. Did you agree to take my money to have sex? Then you consented.

[VelmaD]

127. ya know...

I never would have guessed that so many allegedly liberal people would think that paying women to have sex was a good thing. I can't decide whether to laugh hysterically, cry inconsolably, bang my head against a wall repeatedly, or commit multiple shovel beatings.

[bicentennial_baby]

136. what about male prostitution?

I only seeing you addressing this topic with regard to women....Just curious.

[sniffa]

140. hey, you're just a seLf Loathing woman

with no seLf esteem. hmmph.

[VelmaD]

142. Almost everyone in this thread has focused on it...

as it relates to women...so why single me out?

That said, I've been thinking and writing a bit about what I think on this topic generally...some in this thread and some in the other prostitution thread currently going here in GD. I'm not real in favor of male prositution either. The short and dirty on why...I don't like how it's always about servicing men. Most male prostitutes are not having sex with women. This whole debate is part of something bigger for me...an overall disgust with how the sexuality of our society is male-focused.

[bicentennial_baby]

147. gotcha

thanks

[Der Blaue Engel]

153. Velma, I agree with you on a lot of other subjects

but I have to take exception with your use of "allegedly" here. Just because we don't all agree with you on this point doesn't make us any less liberal.

I belong to a community that happens to include a lot of sex workers, so I see this issue from a whole different side than I did before I met them. Personally, I have always considered the question of prostitution as no different from that of abortion. No matter what one's personal opinion is about it, no one should have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body.

[VelmaD]

155. Unless of course...

that person is paying her for sex.

Sorry...it was too easy an opening to pass up. :) No more snide jokes I promise.

Here's where it gets hairy for me...prostitution is the only "work" where we talk about it in terms of people selling their bodies. We don't concieve of it that way when it's flipping burgers or putting up dry wall or sitting front of a computer all day pretending to work while really posting on DU. *deep breath* And since we put it in terms of selling your body...it skirts dangerously close to slavery. There...I said it. Loaded term, I know. We don't let people sell their bodies in a permanent sense. Why is it ok then to sell it for a half hour?

[Der Blaue Engel]

160. Well maybe the problem is in the terms

I don't think any of my friends ever say "I'm selling my body" or think of it in those terms. They are selling a service. If someone offers to pay me to give them a handjob, am I selling my hand?

Moreover, slaves never get paid.

Out of curiosity, and totally unrelated to this topic, do you work for a publisher? I write lesbian erotica, and am a copy editor by day. I'd love to find a way to combine my interests. PM me if you don't want to discuss here. Or don't, if you don't want to discuss at all. :)

[Lilith Velkor]

161. We also don't conceive of it that way i/r/t the military

...even though quite a few of my friends ended up selling their bodies in the true permanent sense. Ironic, yes?

[VelmaD]

163. I'm sorry about your friends

:hug:

And it is a shame we don't think of the military that way...because from what I've heard from friends and family who were in the service...the military seems to view it that way. They OWN you.

[Lilith Velkor]

164. aww thanx

:hug:

And yeah, "your ass is government property" is the way I've heard it put most often.

[VelmaD]

165. I think one of the scariest things I ever heard was...

"If you had needed a family...we would have issued you one." This was said to my best friend's husband (in the Army at the time) while she was in the hospital for the last 2 months of her pregnancy fighting to keep from losing the baby.

[appal_jack]

178. I (straight white male) have sold my body...

...when I worked as a bicycle courier in NYC back in the early '90's. This line of work put me in all kinds of danger, but it was the best-paying job I could get at the time. To me, the trade-offs were worth it (I was still in my teens then).

A friend (female) was stripping around the same time, and we occasionally swapped notes about how we were both "selling our bodies" (she earned more stripping than I earned messengering).

Was I enslaved? No, I voluntarily chose to messenger instead of earning minimum wage at McD's.

-app

[Zhade]

183. Um, slaves don't get paid. That's the whole point of slavery.

Your analogy is a bit hysterical (and I don't mean 'funny').

[mondo joe]

169. I never would have guessed allegedly liberal people would think they should decide

what a woman can or can't consent to do with her own body.

[Zhade]

182. The sheer amount of amateur porn available destroys your consent argument.

Even if your consent argument wasn't flawed, the fact that there is tons of amateur, very happy porn out there proves that porn does not automatically equate to joyless servitude.

We get it - you think all porn is degrading and forces women into subservience. This is clearly not the case.

[Quantess]

70. People who are fervently, rabidly, anti-porn

have a guilty conscience because they secretly like it.

[VelmaD]

71. what a gross oversimplification...

of a subject that invokes complex feelings for many people.

[Quantess]

143. Alright, VelmaD.

You say you aren't anti-porn. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x3105184#3107051

But, can you see how a person who is wracked with guilt over their tormented fascination with evil porn, can take a fervently anti-porn stance while simultaneously be obsessed with porn?

[VelmaD]

146. The way you worded your previous post...

made it sound like ALL people who expressed a problem with porn did so for the reason you cited.

That said, I do think for some people your observation is absolutely correct. For the foaming-at-the-mouth religio-fascists who are scared to death of sex...you are absolutely right. They are fascinated by sex and porn and scared of it and guilty over it and are so discombobulated they don't know whether to scratch their watch or wind their butt.

[Quantess]

151. I figured the words "fervently" and "rabidly" would be sufficiently clear, LOL.

Anyway, I read a report saying that Christian men often suffer from porn addiction. I couldn't find that original report, but here's a decent link on the topic.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0825/p14s01-lire.html?s=widep

[VelmaD]

157. you gotta wonder though...

given the church's view on looking at ANY porn...how many of those people are actually clinically addicted and how many have been guilted into believing they are. Either way...they're kinda f'ed in the head.

[leftofthedial]

76. because the church(es) and the powers that be

prefer that the lower classes remain conflicted, confused and plagued with guilt about sex.

[Sparkly]

84. I think it's more about controlling women than lower classes

although, if some churches/politicians had their way, women would pretty much BE the lower classes anyway. :hi:

[leftofthedial]

113. it is the elemental version of "divide and conquer"

use sex to divide the genders at a basic level

the key point is that it is intentional

[hedgehog]

77. Legalizing prostitution is one of those ideas that can sound

reasonable but never really lives up to the claims. Legalized brothels in Europe mean that no one is ever forced into prostitution, right? Then explain the number of girls from Russia and the old Eastern bloc who sign up for waitressing jobs and end up forced into prostitution. I say girls purposely because a lot of these women are under 18.

It reminds me of polygamy. It can be justified in theory, but somehow women end up being degraded in every society that practices polygamy.

[Sparkly]

82. Sex slavery and prostitution

Do you think legalized prostitution would somehow preclude enforcing laws against sex slavery here?

Conversely, do you think keeping prostitution criminalized stops sex slavery?

Note again, that I'm talking about prostitution among consenting adults without any dishonesty or coercion involved.

[hedgehog]

135. One of the reasons that is given for legalizing prostitution is that

doing so will prevent sexual slavery. Somehow,it always happens anyways. Also note, legalized prostitution doesn't stop rape, either. I am also willing to bet that women still solicit strangers even in those areas with legalized bordellos

[geomon666]

88. What about legalized prostitution in Nevada?

Where the girls must be licensed by the state and brothels must be kept very clean and the girls are tested every month for STD's.

State law requires that registered brothel prostitutes be checked weekly for several sexually transmitted diseases and monthly for HIV; furthermore, condoms are mandatory for all oral sex and sexual intercourse. Brothel owners may be held liable if customers become infected with HIV after a prostitute has tested positive for the virus.

Nevada has laws against engaging in prostitution outside of licensed brothels, against encouraging others to become prostitutes, and against living off the proceeds of a prostitute. Brothels are also not allowed to advertise their services in counties where brothel prostitution is illegal.

[hedgehog]

97. LOL - they test for curable STDs weekly but only test for HIV

ona monthly basis?

Maybe that should be laughing with tears in my eyes.


BTW - do they contact the customers who may have been exposed once someone turns up positive for anything?

[geomon666]

174. There's a reason for that.

Infection with HIV has no specific symptoms. The only way you can find out for sure if you are infected with HIV is by taking the HIV antibody test.

The HIV antibody test looks for antibodies to the virus in a person's blood. For most people these antibodies take 3 months to develop. In rare cases, it can take up to 6 months. It would be extremely uncommon to take longer then 6 months to develop detectable antibodies.

Getting tested before the 3 month period is up may result in an unclear test result, as an infected person may not have developed antibodies to HIV yet. So it is best to wait for at least three months after the last time you were at risk before taking the test. Some test centres may recommend testing again at 6 months, just to be extra sure.

It is also important that you are not at risk of further exposures to HIV during this time period. Most importantly you should continue to practice safe sex and not share needles.

The vast majority of HIV tests are antibody tests. Other tests are available that can be used in specific circumstances, such as the p24 antigen test and the PCR test.

[mongo]

80. To clarify the law

Making pornography is illegal in 49 states. It is considered pandering prostitution and you can be charged for it. It is only legal to produce pornography in California, although it is rather hard to catch someone in the act of making a film.

Obscenity is illegal in 40 states, and the way the laws are written, the most vanilla adult video is *technically* illegal. But to prove that a film is "obscene" and therefore illegal, a jury must apply the Miller test:

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions <1> specifically defined by applicable state law,
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

Since it is hard to get a jury to convict on most standard porn fare these days, most sane places in the country don't try to prosecute (sorry Utah!)

Being an adult performer is very different that being a prostitute. Adult performers are ACTING - and being paid for their skill at giving a convincing performance under hot lighting with camera, lighting, sound crews and a director surrounding them.

[Quantess]

101. Darn right they're ACTING.

People don't have sex the way it is portrayed in porn films. They do all kinds of weird, atypical, things in porn flicks. The only reason they do anything in a porn movie is to get a certain effect for the viewer.

[mongo]

129. Yep -- It's sport f*cking

People like watching things they can't/won't do at home.

Man, so many of the women in porn are LIMBER!

[bluewave]

100. Neither should be illegal. But STD's are a part of prostitution

Never heard of an STD being transmitted through pr0n.

[hedgehog]

104. Maybe not through viewing porn, but it is a concern in porn

production. All a test can tell you is your condition up to the point that the test sample was taken. There is nothing that says you couldn't have contracted an STD the next day.

[bluewave]

105. True. I heard about that STD testing failure in California

when all those porn stars got exposed to (IIRC) HIV. Condoms are where it's at. :)

[Sparkly]

110. STDs are a risk of sex in general. nt

[hedgehog]

122. STDs are a risk of general sex. People who are celibate before marriage

and faithful afterward don't worry about STDs.

[Sparkly]

124. True! nt

[Der Blaue Engel]

145. Unless their partners are liars

Unless they get divorced or their spouse dies and they'd like to continue to have a life.

Unless the government won't let them get married, so they don't have the option of being "celibate before marriage."

[qwlauren35]

112. One thing I've noticed.

In pornography, the sexual health of all concerned is highly regulated.

There's NO way to do that with prostitution.

In pornography, the sexual situation is relatively controlled, and any violence is consensual. No way to do that with prostitution.

There is a part of me that prefers that it be an illegal activity, but I recognize that if it was regulated as strictly as prescription drugs, then I might not mind.

If customers had to register for services, for example...

I don't want to make it legal for women to be abused as happens in prostitution. It's hard enough to prosecute a rapist when there's no money involved. I don't want to make it EASIER for venereal disease or HIV to spread. And above all, I don't want an additional group of women to see prostitution as a reasonable career path.

[VelmaD]

114. you all need to know that I can't reply to mongo...

he blocked me...so all those questions he asked me directly in this thread...he knew when he asked them that I wouldn't be able to respond because he was blocking me. Mongo...you need to learn to deal with people who disagree with you.

I will say it again and use small words...I am not anti-porn. I edit gay porn/erotica for extra cash. What I am against is porn that degrades women and you seem incapable of ever seeing or admitting that that even happens. Until then, enjoy your circumscribed little world where no one ever gets to disagree with you.:hi:

[Evoman]

128. Think of it this way....would it be prostitution if you and your spouse had sex, and someone paid to

film it. You both got a cheque for being filmed, not for having sex.

Two porn actors have sex consensually. Just like two people at a bar might. A third person films the act, and pays FOR THAT, not for the sex..i.e, its not technically prostitution. Its a legal trick for sure..and they have to sign contracts as well.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. Is the problem with porn being made, or porn being sold?

If I videotaped my wife and I having sex, it would be porn. If I sold it, would we be prostitutes? How about if we didn't sell it?

[Marie26]

156. It's a bummer, huh?

Well, there's always Holland.

[AZBlue]

159. The law doesn't but the bottom line does: porn makes HUGE amounts of money, prostitution doesn't.

It really just boils down to money.

[EdwardM]

162. There really is no difference.

And this is why the government needs to stay out of the bedroom, because then they start doing stupid shit like this. Comeon cops, you got wife beaters and murderers to catch. Do you really need to catch a women charging 100 bucks for sex? "Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. So why can't selling fucking be legal?" - George Carlin.

[liberal hypnotist]

166. Always was-always will be.

Prostitution is illegal yet for the most part condoned. I feel very sad for street prostitutes that work for drugs. At the same time it has been with us forever. I am amazed that people still pick-up street hookers considering AIDS. Oh yea, it is an equal opportunity employer for both men and women.

[BlueAlert]

167. Because as long as the moral minority knows its going on,

They want to watch!!

[Rex]

170. Porn pays taxes and prostitution doesn't.

Kinda like why is beer legal, but pot ain't? Because they tax beer and people can grow pot for free in their own backyard.

It's all about the gummit getting their slice.

[nebula]

173. Brothels in Nevada pay taxes

Girls working in legalized brothels are off the street and working at a recognized business address. The 'tax problem' is solved.

But unlike Nevada, most states have a double standard between prostitution and porn.

[Rex]

175. It is most definitely the double standard.

nt

[Madspirit]

171. Lot's of hooker friends...

I think, as does PONY and COYOTE...(prostitute unions)...that prostitution should be legal. I have had lots of hooker friends and none of them were coerced. They did it because it didn't bother them and they could make more money hooking than they could waiting tables. I have a friend who hooked her way through grad. school. She ended up with a doctorate in Psychology...<g> What two consenting adults do with their own bodies and their own money is nofuckingbody's business but their own.

Women who are forced to be prostitutes...well, that's a whole different thing and a whole different crime and is illegal in and of itself and is prosecutable. Slavery is illegal on it's own.

If prostitution was legal it would be better regulated, just like the ones in Vegas. The women would be better protected, get better health care and there would be oversight.

Cast Out Your Old Tired Ethics...Coyote. Keep your nose in your own bedroom.
Madspirit