Many people I know are killing themselves with pills.

[jarab]

I was speaking with a doctor's wife a couple days ago. The family is big-time republican.

She, while I was trying to "left her thoughts" - out of the blue - suggested that people on welfare should have to be drug tested in order to have some semblance of assurance that they weren't misapproriating their stipends.
This sounds like a Boortz theme, I know.

This was hugely ironic, in a way. Just a couple years ago her husband was suspended from the Medicaid program for some time because of his abuse of the prescription system. Some of the controls are still in effect. I suspect that the doc's strong political connections to Kentucky's republican governor and the party might have lessened his penalties.

That did get me to thinking (yeah, it hurt).
I do know - did know - dozens of people, many - or most - on some form of public assistance, who overdosed on prescription pills. Most of them seemed to not only OD, but died.

If it could be proven that the facts might tend to sway in this direction, what to do? We cannot continue to allow our own to shop, swap, buy and sell scripts - then die - can we?
In my neck of the woods, it isn't drugs that are introduced from elsewhere that are the main culprits. It is prescription medication. I know homemade meth has become a biggie of late, but the scripts for Lorcet and Oxycontin seem to be the bad ones - particularly the latter.

It's apparently true that the poor among us - here in the mountains - are the primary abusers of the medicaid prescription system.
The latest drug abuse and "best" I heard - in this example re food stamps - that's rampant is this:
Go to Walmart - or the like - and buy a couple hundred dollars worth of Pepsi with food stamps. Sell all of it "half price" to your small local grocer for cash. No crime on his part because the only person he's hurting is the bottler. Buy drugs. The kids go hungry.

Is there a better way to save our friends and neighbors than what we have now, short of the radical steps prescribed by the doctor's wife? It isn't fair to the kids, we know, and that should be what's most important to all of us.

I'm just asking. My baby sister's husband did this to himself two years ago - age 39 - so I'm particularly touched by the "dilemma".
I'm tired of being a pallbearer for my friends.

...O...

[SoCalDem]

1. Legal drugs can cause problems too. Many seniors are on a pill merry-go-round

My husband is one too.

He took ZERO meds most of his life, and once diagnosed with diabetes, he got on that merry-go-round. the cholesterol meds gave him side effects that needed a different drug to combat, that drug caused him some heart issues, then the stent put into a vein required a different med which gave him ulcers that needed yet another drug.

All these competing meds (same doctor prescribed them all) have impaired his health.

yet,apparently he cannot get off any of them..

I am not saying this to negate the illegal drug issue..just saying that legal meds cause trouble too..and are probably more expensive than the illegal ones :shrug:

[FlaGranny]

48. I do medical transcription

and recently as I was typing up the medication list for a patient. I thought, wow, that's a lot of medicine, so I started counting up the amount of pills that patient was taking - SIXTY TWO PILLS a day, with a couple of asthma inhalers and a couple of different eye drops (both 2 or 3 times a day). Unbelievable. That can't be good for you. I'm inclined to believe all those chemicals have to be more detrimental to your health than many serious diseases. I also wondered how much room was left in the patient's stomach for FOOD. And what do you suppose all this cost? I can only imagine.

[NotGivingUp]

57. unbelievable....62 pills a day!!! it is such a racket. we are letting big pharma

get away with murder...and running away with the profits from it, too.

[Joanne98]

2. when in-patient drug re-hab is free then the problem will subside

Right now it costs to much and the lines are long. Prohibition drives people underground and that's when they die.

[zanne]

5. When pharmaceutical companies come up with non-addictive pills

Less people will die. The pharmaceutical companies keep defending their high prices by saying that they need alot of money for research. I've been hearing that same excuse for about 30 years. Some people say I'm being cynical when I say that drug companies aren't at all worried about addiction, just as the tobacco companies weren't worried about addiction. It does wonders for their bottom line. Don't you think that, by now, they could come up with a pain killer that's effective but not addictive? I do.

[knitter4democracy]

7. Pharma spends twice as much on marketing.

They're cutting in research and upping their marketing costs. That crap about making back what they spent on a drug is all lies. It's about paying for the intense and huge marketing costs.

They are working on better painkillers. Most painkillers are out of patent. If someone came up with a better one with fewer side effects, they'd make billions. From what I hear, Pfizer's working on it, and if they are, everyone is.

[zanne]

10. I sincerely hope that Pfizer comes up with one.

I've known a few people who became addicted to Oxycontin. They had normal lives until they started having intense pain and took Oxycontin. I just hate the idea of blaming the victim. I think that's what these people are; they're victims who find themselves addicted and condemned by society for being addicted. An effective pain reliever with no potential for addiction would change the lives of so many people, and society would be the better for it.

[knitter4democracy]

17. I'd just like one that works.

I have a genetic thing that makes anything derived from opium not block pain receptors, which means I get all the side effects and no pain relief. Makes waking up from major surgery seriously suck.

I think that, structurally, though, it will be all but impossible. It's too hard for humans not to get addicted to feelings of euphoria and pain relief.

[SmokingJacket]

16. What's the motive to come up with a non-addictive drug?

Er... there is none.

Think if McDonald's could come up with an addictive burger. You know they'd be all over it.

[knitter4democracy]

18. Sales.

They'd still have a lot of scrips written and a lot of people taking them (especially former addicts who are still in pain). Pain is one of the biggest issues my husband deals with on a daily basis with his patients. A non-addictive pain reliever would sell a lot.

[ret5hd]

3. Those bad bad poor people

[jarab]

4. Those bad, bad - previously poor, now dead - people.

...O...

[Bruce McAuley]

9. Yup, poor and dead.

If the price of the pills don't bankrupt you, or the side effects make you keel over, then the fake drugs that just LOOK like the ones you're supposed to be taking will kill you.
My wife used to take a lot of meds, but has cut down to pain and thyroid and HRT. I've had a heart attack a long time back, but I've quit the cholesterol drugs because I think they're a waste. I take aspirin, to heck with the rest. My PA told me last week he still thinks I should be taking statins, but I think not, given my family history.
And you know they cost hundreds of dollars a month.
I'll stick to the easy drugs and forget those spendy Wonder Drugs, thanks.

Bruce

[knitter4democracy]

6. Another doctor's wife here.

Your friend's stance is a common one in the medical community. It basically boils down to people are making themselves sick, choosing to remain sick, and it's their fault the system is so messed up. To fix it, we need to test poor people for narc-seeking behavior, test to make sure that they're taking their meds, test to make sure that pregnant women are going to their pre-natals, test their blood sugars . . .

Here's the problem: they're entirely wrong. First of all, most docs get pretty dang pissed at narc-seekers and self-destructive patients, but they are blaming the patient for something that is bigger than they. Narc-seekers almost always start as patients with real pain who are given real prescriptions. Those meds are strong, and they help many people get better. There are many people taking narcotics who need them to function, not because they need the high but because of their pain. The ones who take it to get high often still have pain and other health issues as well.

Doctors need to stop blaming the patients. Patients are always going to be self-destructive on some level--it's human nature. Just ask a doctor how much sleep he got the last time he was on-call and how much he sees his kids. Doctors are just as self-destructive as their patients. My hubby, a great guy and internist, is terrible about taking his meds, seeing his doctor, getting enough sleep, and eating right. He doesn't do all that because he's some weak guy but because he is in a hard job that requires a lot of hours and he's doing as well as he can right now. I think most patients are in the same boat on that.

Doctors need to start fighting for a single-payer national health care program. It will cut overhead costs by billions (according to the AMA's figures), it will simplify doctor/patient interactions, and it will cut down on someone's ability to narc-seek with everything in one system.

[Lex]

8. Have you seen this site?

Physicians for a National Health Program: "Physicians for a National Health Program is a nonprofit organization of 14,000 physicians, medical students and health professionals who support single-payer national health insurance."

http://www.pnhp.org/


It's worth reading and book-marking. Don't know if your husband would be interested, but it's worth a try.

Tons of useful information on that site.




__________________

[knitter4democracy]

19. We have the membership printout, just haven't sent it in yet.

We're waiting for the new job's signing bonus (membership's a bit pricy).

Hubby is quite vocal about that, and he's working on convincing all the docs he works with. He's changed a few minds since being here.

[Ladyhawk]

37. I'm chronically ill.

I can't speak for everyone in a similar position, but I will say that feeling sick most of the time (which also equals being poor unless you were born into a rich family), gets old. I exist in some kind of limbo between life and death. I exist, but that's about it. I've been hesitant to ask for narcotic prescriptions because I'm afraid it would just make things worse. For the past twenty years, I have gone through cycles of trying really hard to make my life and health better, only to be smacked down by some errant cold virus added to what I already fight on a daily basis.

I certainly understand the allure of trying to escape the situation through drug use. I've been fighting some kind of secondary infection from a virus I caught a few months ago. I failed on Augmentin, then got angioedemic hives from Levaquin. If you add these issues to chronic illness, it makes it almost impossible to cope.

Instead of smacking down the patient for drug use, perhaps the health care system needs to focus on providing decent health care and some kind of safety net so that numbing the pain through drugs doesn't seem so alluring. I have to fight for every ounce of health care I get and on days when I'm suffering, I just don't have the energy to be an advocate for myself. The health system IS broken. I've done more than my part to try to fix the things that are wrong with me. If the docs and health care would meet me even half way, it would do a world of good.

[knitter4democracy]

47. Me too. I have leaned on Hubby for a lot of help and care.

This last year was hell on my health, and I have had a hard time making sure that everything gets set. Thank goodness Hubby knows how to work the system. I wish everyone had an advocate like him.

Oh, and don't get him started on how broken the system is. I just can't understand why anyone thinks we don't need a national health care plan. They're delusional or never sick.

Now if the docs could just figure out why my iron is so low and where I'm bleeding . . .

[mdmc]

11. H. kills more people here in Newburgh, NY then OD's

We don't have many rx OD's in my neck of the woods.

Most drug related deaths in my area are from heroin overdoses or drug/gang killings.

And of course, good old alcohol kills lots of folks too.

Oversight is the only way to prevent welfare abuse.

[knitter4democracy]

20. What if oversight costs more than welfare?

Penny-wise but pound foolish?

[ret5hd]

26. Whatever it takes to keep them damn welfare queens and their cadillacs...

off them damn pills!!! :sarcasm:

[mdmc]

32. Well, if you look at WI welfare under Tommy Thompson, it worked

The oversight needs to be a part of the overall benefit that the recipient receives as support from the government. That way taxpayers will be less likely to look down at them as cheats simply for being on welfare.

[knitter4democracy]

34. WI had some really good ideas about that.

One thing I remember reading about was their work to get more WIC moms to nurse instead of automatically use the formula provided through WIC. I always wondered how that turned out.

[mdmc]

49. the point was welfare worked, and fraud was really reduced

As far as folks OD'ing on pills, only education and a will to live will fix that.

[jelly]

12. I knew several young people in western ny state

who died from or OD'ed (and recovered) on oxycontin, all of them on Medicaid. Last year my sister in law almost died that way. When my mother in law found her, she was blue and not breathing. My SIL had been claiming that she had severe back pain, which we all knew was a bunch of crap. After the OD, we called her doctor (who is known for his loose prescription practices) and placed him on notice that he was prescribing oxycontin to an addict, and told him that if he prescribed it to her again and she died, we would sue him for wrongful death. I don't know whether we would have actually had standing to sue in such a situation but it worked because he refused to prescribe it to her after that. It's bad stuff, though, just the worst. Many people who are on it who can no longer get it move on to heroin.

[mdmc]

33. sounds like malpractice

:shrug:

[Warren Stupidity]

13. One effect of drug prohibition is to push people toward dangerous

drugs and away from less dangerous drugs. It is a bit of blowback from that other bogus war of ours.


And now for some perspective.

Drug related deaths do not show up in any mortality tables as a leading cause of death.

Here is an interesting JAMA article that correlates modifiable behaviors with mortality:

Results The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435 000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400 000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85 000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75 000), toxic agents (55 000), motor vehicle crashes (43 000), incidents involving firearms (29 000), sexual behaviors (20 000), and illicit use of drugs (17 000).

Conclusions These analyses show that smoking remains the leading cause of mortality. However, poor diet and physical inactivity may soon overtake tobacco as the leading cause of death. These findings, along with escalating health care costs and aging population, argue persuasively that the need to establish a more preventive orientation in the US health care and public health systems has become more urgent.


http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/291/10/1238

[poofer]

14. This is so true

I know people who are taking so many and all they do is cover up an illness not CURE it!! I ordered the book by Kevin Trudeau that is advertised on Tv and if you want to be scared order it! Docors are getting all kinds of kickbacks from these companies and don't forget one of the largest drug companies was a HUGE supporter for the repukes!

[knitter4democracy]

22. Really? Where are ours, then?

My husband is getting all kinds of kickbacks from Pharma? Ummm, no.

He doesn't get any money for any kind of "consulting" deal with any drug company, he refuses to go to any drug company dinners, he won't meet with drug reps unless they ambush him in the hallway and then gets out of it as soon as possible, and he doesn't get any money for prescribing anything over something else. The only "kickbacks" I can think of are cheap-ass pens that break in two days that he ends up giving to our kids to break and subsidized CME courses (which he needs to take to stay licensed).

A lot of that stuff has stopped in recent years. Med schools are putting the breaks on drug rep access and Pharma money, those fancy trips are history, and some in medicine are starting to attack Pharma dollars in any part of medicine. Even Pharma has cut back after getting too much pressure from doctors, and that's saying something.

Not everyone against doctors is automatically right.

[prolesunited]

30. Please do not promote the book of a known SCAM artist

Misleading infomercial driving sales of junk book. Infomercial scammer Kevin Trudeau, who signed a court-approved consent agreement prohibiting him from selling health-related products (except publications), has continued his longstanding patters of deception by selling a book called Natural Cures “They” Don’t Want You to Know About. In a frequently aired infomercial, Trudeau falsely claims that government agencies and the food and drug industries are conspiring against "natural cures" and that people who want such information should buy his book. Although the infomercial suggests that the book makes specific recommendations for specific problems, it actually does not. In the book, Trudeau claims that the FTC censored the entire chapter titled "Cures for All Diseases." However, Daniel Kaufman, the lead attorney in FTC's most recent case, told Dr. Stephen Barrett that as long as Trudeau is not promoting brand-name products, he still has the First Amendment right to claim that various methods or product ingredients are beneficial. Frequent airing of the infomercial has driven the book to the #8 position at Amazon Books, but many of the buyers are highly dissatisfied. As of February 2, 2005, more than 60% of the 188 posted reviews have characterized the book as a ripoff. Trudeau has been the target of several FTC regulatory actions and has served time in prison for credit card fraud. Infomercial Watch has posted a detailed analysis of the infomercial.
http://www.ncahf.org/digest05/05-05.html


From an analysis of his infomercial:

TRUDEAU: They’re all in the book.

I would like to give you the cures for every disease; I would like to tell you the natural treatments available that can eliminate your symptoms and, at the same time, address the cause instead of suppressing the symptom. However, as I began to write this book the Federal Trade Commission and the Food and Drug Administration took unprecedented action. I am forbidden to give you specific cures in this book. The FTC has ordered me not to give you any specific product recommendations, or say where you can acquire the cures and receive treatment. . . . This entire chapter has been censored by the FTC.]


Do you believe this? I don't. Trudeau signed a voluntary agreement that he would not sell health or disease products or use publications to sell them. He still has the First Amendment right to claim that various generic methods or product ingredients provide benefits. FTC attorney Daniel Kaufman, the lead attorney in the recent case against Trudeau, told me that the basic principle involved is that Trudeau is not permitted to use a book as a marketing tool to promote brand-name products with which he has a financial connection.]

http://www.infomercialwatch.org/tran/trudeau.shtml

[kentuck]

15. I know whereof you speak, jarab..

You know I know. :(

[Warren DeMontague]

21. What more do people want? We already have doctors terrified of the DEA.

I'm not trying to sound callous, but I'm much more worried about myself or someone I love having something horribly painful like bone cancer and being unable to get proper palliative care because, you know, god forbid people in pain (or people who are terminally ill) get "addicted".

The solution for drug problems- all of them- is treatment on demand. Prohibition is a waste of time. If consenting adults are determined to kill themselves they will do it- if they can't get pain meds they'll use booze, or spray paint, or something else. What ends up happening is you get these "tough on crime" Nazis running the show and soon you've got folks like Richard Paey in prison for trying to alleviate their own considerable pain.

Sorry, things are bad enough as it is. What we need is for the DEA to back the fuck off of doctors and pain patients, and if people have a problem make it easier for them to get treatment. We spend $40 billion a year on the "Drug war", most of it aimed at pot. Half the people in prison are non-violent drug offenders. We need less of that idiocy, we sure as shit don't need more.

[knitter4democracy]

23. Thank you.

I know I worry about Hubby and how he tries to walk that line in treating the pain properly but not so that someone gets addicted. Narc-seekers don't wear huge signs.

[Pithlet]

29. Totally agree.

Just another way the war on drugs hurts all of us. It's infuriating.

[Rosemary2205]

36. Posted the same basic thoughts just below.

ya beat me to it. :)

[Rosemary2205]

24. That sword cuts both ways.

I've known more than one doctor who expects patients with genuine chronic severe pain to suffer undermedicated out of fear the government will come after them for writing "too many" scripts.

One of my own doctors was prosecuted for supposed abuse of the system because he had 4% more patients than average on narcotic pain relievers. It cost him reputation and an enormous amount of money and time to clear his name. He was a GOOD doctor who specialized in pain management for patients with genuine serious pain issues. He didn't just throw pills at them. He was strict, he was encouraging of alternative medicine, and he was compassionate. Now he's no long a doctor.

As I said, the prohibition sword cuts both ways. IMHO, rather than making it a crime to be an addict, we ought to be treating the mental, medical and social difficulties that create it. The war on drugs is total BS - IMHO.

[BlackVelvet04]

25. People couldn't kill themselves with prescription drugs

if doctors didn't write the prescriptions.

Overworked doctors spend little time with patients and often write prescriptions to get the patient out of the office.

Big pharm pushes drugs and those on Medicare/Medicaid seem to get pushed into taking more drugs...why? There is money in it for the doctors and the drug companies.

My father was having a lot of depression and lethargy and he went to his doctor who prescribed an antidepressant. I had my dad give me a list of what he was taking and did some research. One of his blood pressure medicines has a high incident of causing depression, lethargy, muscle weakness, etc. He weaned off that drug and quit the antidepressant and he is like a new man.

Why is that nowadays people need 2 or 3 drugs for high blood pressure when one used to suffice?

My husband was taking that same blood pressure medicine at one time and was acting like a zombie. I convinced him to see another doctor. The new doctor looked at the medication, threw it in the trash and said he thought that type of drug was garbage. He then prescribed another old standby blood pressure medicine and my husband has done great with it.

Patients must be proactive....investigate what drugs you are taking, why you are taking them and decide if you want to take them. Quality of life is as important as quantity of life, IMO.

I had a doctor insist she wanted to give me an antidepressant for back spasms. I've had back surgery and take no narcotic medication and only seldom take muscle relaxers. I told her to stick the antidepressants...I had a bad reaction to every antidepressant I ever tried and she wouldn't listen.

[knitter4democracy]

27. Yes, there are bad docs out there.

That doesn't mean that they're the entire source of all that's wrong in medicine.

I'm married to an internist. I have severe health issues. I don't put up with crap from my docs anymore and now drive over half an hour to the next city over to see a doctor I trust (and even then, I make sure to call and follow-up the way I need to). It's taken a lot for me to get to that point, but I would never automatically trust a doctor's decision without getting a second opinion or reading up on it in Hubby's journals.

Was the antidepressant Cymbalta? It's been showing good pain control as well with apparently no addiction. My doc tried to get me to take it, as did Hubby, but I have odd reactions to drugs and didn't want to be a guinea pig right now. Your doc should've listened--that's her job. I leave docs who talk over me, cut me off, or don't really listen.

[BlackVelvet04]

28. No,

it was Prozac. I already told her I couldn't take any of that class of drug. I can't urinate when I take them and I find that a function necessary to my life. ;-)

No, all doctors certainly aren't bad, but I think there are plenty who take advantage of Medicaid and Medicare patients.

My sister-in-law is on Medicaid and she can't read. You wouldn't believe all of the drugs the doctor has her on. She complained of headaches and instead of suggesting she take Aleve or Motrin or some such thing he prescribed her Percodan. One day she didn't have any Percodan with her so her aunt gave her an Aleve. Her headache was gone in 30 minutes. So, why is she being given Percodan for everyday run of the mill headaches.

I could tell a number of horror stories concerning this SIL and doctors, but it's depressing.

[knitter4democracy]

35. Prozac? Percodan? WTF?

Those don't make any sense at all. Prozac wouldn't help with pain, and if you have a known problem with it (bladder stuff is serious and not to be messed with), why would she offer that at all? I'd be going to a new doc, but I'm super picky and only give them a time or two to screw up after all the crap I've been through.

Percodan? That doc has to be fishy. Why would any doctor prescribe that for headaches? If the headaches are that bad, they're most likely either migraines (which need an entirely different class of drug) or possible mini-strokes or high pressure in the brain, which percodan will just cover up and make everything worse.

*sigh* I wish all docs were as good as my hubby. :) He wishes the practice he works for took Medicaid, but the partners refuse to. I don't think his new practice (starting a new job in Feb.) does, either. That's a whole 'nother rant, though.

[BlackVelvet04]

43. I walked out of that doctor's office and

never returned. She said prozac was good for pain and I said bullshit.

As for the sister-in-law with the percodan....they have been giving her meds like crazy. She's on percodan for headaches and xanax and an antidepressant and I don't know what else as she tries to hide it from her brother and me.

That had her scheduled for a breast biopsy because they said there was something on her mammograms.....they had done 6 in about 5 months. I went with her to get her pre-op stuff done and insisted she not sign anything without me reading it. I informed the nurse that she couldn't read and that she wasn't to sign anything the morning of surgery without a family member there. My husband went to the hospital to be with her the morning of her surgery. After she had been gone (he assumed to surgery) about an hour the doctor came out and said she wouldn't be having a biopsy after all that they had done another mammogram that morning that looked fine. ?????
Doesn't that sound strange to you?

[knitter4democracy]

44. That does sound odd.

They sometimes do another scan to see exactly how and where things are, but to have that many mams in that short a time and then decide not to biopsy.

And why didn't they know she couldn't read? They should've known that and read everything to her. It's not like they've never dealt with patients in that situation before.

It makes me wonder if there's some kind of scam there. More billing when Medicaid pays so little gives them a better chance to get some money. I'd get her to a new doctor and go to the appointment with her. That's me, though.

[BlackVelvet04]

50. I think it was a scam.....

I never felt right about the whole thing from the beginning which is why I went with her in the first place. Just a gut feeling and then when they canceled when her brother showed up made me even more suspicious.

The doctors and nurses at this place have been dealing with my sister-in-law for probably 15 years and didn't know she can't read or ignored that fact.....I don't know which.

I'm trying to get her to a breast clinic in the town where I live but she's pretty stubborn.

[knitter4democracy]

51. I hope she listens. Second opinions save lives.

I made sure to get a second opinion about my kidney tumor, and my pathologists automatically got one when all three here couldn't agree on what it was. It pays to get another doctor's view.

Skeevy, that is. *shudder* I can just imagine the other horrors there. Ick.

[Horse with no Name]

31. Actually

The least of the offenders will be in the state sponsored systems.
The state monitors the physicians and most limit the number of scripts to 3 a month.
There is no way in hell a physician would write for more than 3 in one month. No way in hell.
The poor will most likely be drawn to the meth scourge.
It's cheap.
Now...if you want to talk about pills and abuse, it most common in the middle to upper class.
I could sit and tell you STORIES about the profile of the prescription drug abuser...and it isn't poor people.
As I sit here and write this...I could name off multitudes of patients who are "frequent flyers" at the ER, I could name a Doctor's wife, I could name a Pharmacy Tech, I could name quite a few housewives, I could name nurses. The list goes on.
Personally? I would love to see hydrocodone go to a schedule II with tighter controls on it. That seems to be the prescription drug of abuse.
I had an OB-GYN tell me the other day when I mentioned this that he was considering not prescribing it and only prescribing Tylenol 3.
He says he gets at least 50 patients a week requesting Hydrocodone, but none requesting Tylenol 3.

[NorthernSpy]

40. "personally I'd love to see whiskey go to a Schedule II with tighter controls on it...

For every person who screws up his life with prescription painkillers, many more screw up their lives with good ole booze. Some decades ago, we tried to deal with that just as we currently deal with pill-popping. Prohibition didn't work to well back then, either.

Personally? I would love to see hydrocodone go to a schedule II with tighter controls on it. That seems to be the prescription drug of abuse.
I had an OB-GYN tell me the other day when I mentioned this that he was considering not prescribing it and only prescribing Tylenol 3.
He says he gets at least 50 patients a week requesting Hydrocodone, but none requesting Tylenol 3.

I've got a better idea. Why don't we all just butt out?

It's none of my business what people choose to put in their mouths. It's none of yours, either. If a doctor does not wish to help people take pills he disapproves of, then just make the stuff freely available from the pharmacist's counter. You'll get a notice detailing potential risks along with your little jar of pills. In short, why not treat the sale and use of pain-pills as we already treat the sale and use of alcohol: make laws to protect the rights of others (such as the right not to be run over by drunk driver), but otherwise back off and let people pursue happiness?

[bleedingheart]

54. sadly the folks who are screwing up their lives typically take other

people along for the ride like their parents, wives, husbands and kids.....or the innocent family they kill in an accident because they were too tweaked to drive..

I completely understand what you are talking about as well..., perhaps some folks would get thinned out of the herd faster if they just raced down their destructive path without all the do-gooders trying to prevent them...but that type of social darwinism runs against what most people would find ethical.

[NorthernSpy]

56. that's just kinder, gentler hypocrisy...

Everything you said is especially applicable to alcohol. Of all users, those whose drug of choice is booze are the most dangerous drivers. Alcohol precipitates violent behavior in many problem drinkers; nothing remotely similar can be said of pain meds. Alcoholics who survive their addiction often cause lasting and expensive damage to their bodies -- again, unlike the users of prescription opiate pills. So why don't you want to ban booze?

sadly the folks who are screwing up their lives typically take other people along for the ride like their parents, wives, husbands and kids.....or the innocent family they kill in an accident because they were too tweaked to drive..

So? Punish people for the crimes they commit against others. If they're not committing crimes against others, leave them alone.

My own father was hurt in a crash thanks to a drunk driver. But I've no intention of waging war on liquor stores or their mostly peaceable and responsible customers. That would be unreasonable -- as unreasonable as the War on Drugs.

I completely understand what you are talking about as well..., perhaps some folks would get thinned out of the herd faster if they just raced down their destructive path without all the do-gooders trying to prevent them...but that type of social darwinism runs against what most people would find ethical.

It's more "ethical" to turn cities into free-fire zones? It's more "ethical" imprison millions in the drug war gulag? It's more "ethical" to pick my pocket to pay for all this disastrous do-gooding? Please. If people want to destroy themselves with drinking, pills, bare-back sex, or x-treme sports, that's too bad. But it's their choice, not mine. And I'm hardly interested in sacrificing lives, social peace, freedom, and countless billions of dollars in resources to force them to treat themselves better.

Oh, and don't waste your breath trying to sell that "more drug treatment is the answer" line. Drug treatment may be the answer for individuals who want it, but for society as a whole, it's no answer at all. Most of the negative "externalities" of drug use are the direct results of prohibitionist policies themselves. AA meetings on every corner would not have made Prohibition a success: people would still have wanted booze, and with no legal source of liquor around, the criminal element would still have rushed in to meet the demand.

If one were forced for the sake of clarity to define fascism in a word simple enough for all to understand, that word would be "reform".

--George Jackson

If drugs and alcohol had never been discovered, this would be a lot better world. But it is a dangerous illusion that we have the omnipotence to undo every evil. The crusading mentality can easily make things worse. ... Crusaders cannot accept the fact tht they are not God--that they have neither the right nor the competence to run other people's lives.

--Thomas Sowell

[NorthernSpy]

38. alrighty, random drug testing of doctors and politicians it is!

Just a couple years ago her husband was suspended from the Medicaid program for some time because of his abuse of the prescription system. Some of the controls are still in effect. I suspect that the doc's strong political connections to Kentucky's republican governor and the party might have lessened his penalties.

And her solution for the misdeeds of a doctor and his politician buddies is to get tough on poor mountainfolk instead? What a shock!

:eyes:

There is an alternative. How about we start drug testing doctors instead? If they want a license to prescribe, they have to pee in cup -- or find another career.

Same for politicians and judges: want to exercise power over people? Well, pee in this cup here while Nurse Ratched watches. Come on... you haven't got anything to hide, yes?

But why stop there? Drugs aren't the only problem to which we might apply this kind of reform. For instance, I bet we could make a real dent in child pronography if we made holding a driver's license contingent on acceptance of unwarranted searches and seizures. Child porn is a very bad thing, and as you yourself said, "it isn't fair to the kids, we know, and that should be what's most important to all of us". Okay, wish granted: now surrender your computer to Officer Friendly. We have no warrant, and NO reason to think you might be a pedophile, but it never hurts to make sure -- does it?

That's the problem with these "It's For The Children" -type rationalizations: there is no trespass against freedom, privacy, and human dignity that you cannot justify if you accept the premise of such arguments.


Bottom line: if elites aren't willing to impose such obnoxious and intrusive "reforms" on themselves first, why should we agree to impose them on poor mountainfolk?

[rainbow4321]

39. Dilaudid is many peoples drug of choice

At least when they are admitted to the hospital...and the docs write orders for it like it's water.
We call them clock watchers. The patients who suddenly get excruciating pain literally 2-3 minutes before their next dose is due. Up until that 2 minute timeframe they are watching TV calmly, visiting with friends/family, no signs of pain..then WHAM, they are doubled over in "pain", moaning, rate the pain 10 out of 10.

I cannot tell you how many we get from the ER that literally don't even let me finish the sentence "Hi, I'm xxxxx, I'm your nurse for the rest of the night" before they are giving me a list of drugs that they want right NOW..dilaudid, phenergan, a sleeping pill, a xanax. And these folks are in their 20's-30's. Um..OK, kind of have to do a few things first, ask a couple questions. Questions that never really get answered cuz they are STILL asking for those drugs NOW.
Most of these folks are what we call "frequent flyers" because they are back in our facility every few weeks doing their "drug seeker in pain" act. Some go from hospital to hospital in between stays at OUR hospital.
And the orders are written over and over despite nurses trying to tell the docs that the person is hooked on the dilaudid. We swear if the only drug order these people got was for Tylenol or Advil, they would never shadow our doorstep ever again.
The drug of choice for many elderly: Xanax. They take megadoses at home but get a "normal" dose when they are in the hospital..normal doses don't touch them **because** they take so much at home.

[NorthernSpy]

42. if hospitals were the only places that served liquor, you'd have a plague of "liquor-seekers"...

... and you'd be complaining about those damn liquor-seekers and their obnoxious, liquor-seeking behavior.

Most of these folks are what we call "frequent flyers" because they are back in our facility every few weeks doing their "drug seeker in pain" act. Some go from hospital to hospital in between stays at OUR hospital.
And the orders are written over and over despite nurses trying to tell the docs that the person is hooked on the dilaudid. We swear if the only drug order these people got was for Tylenol or Advil, they would never shadow our doorstep ever again.

Which is why I'd like to relieve you of this burden. Make effective painkillers as readily available as alcohol is, and I swear you'll never see these people again, unless they have a genuine ailment.

[knitter4democracy]

45. Have you ever read the Placebo Journal?

http://placebojournal.com

Great stories of narc seekers. There's a book out, too.

I wish that stuff worked on me. Thanks to Dad, I have some genetic thing that makes opium deriviatives not block the pain pathways. I tell ya, it's hard to wake up from major surgery with zero pain control because everyone thinks that the morphine should be working.

[bleedingheart]

53. Dilaudid holds the record for making me puke the fastest of all pain meds

I have back problems and every once in a blue moon the problem is so bad that I have to go to the doctor or hospital (normally per doctor's orders)...like when my left arm stopped working...

I can't take anything other than Tylenol or Advil...every other narcotic makes me ill except for IV morphine...and I don't go asking for that..

I generally get admitted for IV steroids and now because I have been sickened by so many narcotics...I have to beg them NOT...to give me certain pain meds...

However while I have been in the ER (with my back problems and my kids's asthma problems)..I have listened in to plenty of people trying to scam for pain meds...and it is really obvious...I can't imagine how the people in the ER can manage to be so professional with some of the folks...

[RB TexLa]

41. Be careful talking about such with the spouse of a doctor

I'm very shocked the doctor has not sent you a bill yet.

I had something pulled in my arm last month and at a party, my wife was talking with a doctor and when I came up she introduced me to her and said, "I was asking her about your arm." Immediately, I warned her "Baby, let's not, she'll have the bill in the mail in the morning."

[knitter4democracy]

46. Ha. Ha.

They can't magically bill. There's tons of paperwork for that. No paperwork, no bill.

Establishing a doctor/patient relationship is another thing. If you took that doctor's advice and suffered harm, you could've sued, depending on your state's definition of medical malpractice.

[bleedingheart]

52. Addiction problems are typically a sign of other problems

typically people who perhaps need mental health counselig, marriage counseling, job counseling or a host of other issues...

some people shop to make the bad feelings go away...

some will lock themselves up in their house to hide...

some will pop pills....

I think that access to proper mental health counseling in this country for everyone would be wonderful...

we need to be more liberal in our compassion of others because we can't know what other folks are suffering through until we walk in their shoes...

[jarab]

55. I've often wondered if drugs (i.e., abuse) are an escape from reality ....

Cannot cope with the status quo - which means messed up situations.

I agree with compassion.
When weighed against one another, the lives the addicts are affecting amount to a total much greater than one (that person). The lives of parents, children and other family members/friends are adversely affected - and in my case, grandparents.

This epidemic is to be the demise of an already long-struggling Appalachia, it seems. And, for any so insensitive and anxious for such an outcome, I would disagree strongly.

...O...

[NorthernSpy]

59. if you want to help mountainfolk, consider respecting their privacy...

We don't force intrusive regimens of drug testing on rich people who get government subsidies and contracts, and we should treat working class Americans no differently.

I've often wondered if drugs (i.e., abuse) are an escape from reality .... Cannot cope with the status quo - which means messed up situations.

They eke out a scant living in the cramped space between greedy coal companies and arrogant do-gooders who periodically stage humiliating intrusions into their lives. So yeah, they probably would like to escape. Can you blame them?

This epidemic is to be the demise of an already long-struggling Appalachia, it seems. And, for any so insensitive and anxious for such an outcome, I would disagree strongly.

Humanity's reformers are always shouting crisis, and demanding the authority to intrude in our lives -- for our own good, of course. Not so long ago, your predecessors had fingered these people of the Appalachians as an "unfit" population that we could not possibly, possibly allow to breed at will or drink in peace, lest disaster ensue. Nowadays, we cannot possibly, possibly allow them to eat what they want or pop Oxycontins in peace. Plus ca change...

The thing is -- and much to the dismay of self-described "bleeding hearts" -- we humans are far tougher than we're given credit for being. "Doomed" "inferior" populations have kept right on keeping on. And there is still no reason whatsoever to think that your benevolent and enlightened healthy living regime would really make them any happier or healthier than they currently are.

[spanone]

58. Just like abortion, the rich continue to get what those fucking poor people can't have.

It's all their fault too, they choose to be poor.