A Question Posed: If I'm not a journalist or an agent of another country...

[hootinholler]

Then would it be espionage if I collect information and investigate something and receive or discern classified info?

This is an entirely hypothetical post, my heart is pure.

I'm curious because my brain hooks odd things together sometimes and this thread got me wondering what the legal ramifications were if citizens with the best interests of the country began spying on the government. I mean what's the legal status of the people who were tracking tail numbers of rendition flights?

To take it a step further, if a group of people openly gathered and shared intelligence about the government and published it, what would the legal defense be? What hoops would have to be jumped through to strengthen that defense.

Don't we have the right to know what the government is doing in our name? All of it?

[Rock_Garden]

1. That's a very important question right now, for all of us.

This must surely be one of the murkiest gray areas possible, with the most potential for all kinds of sticky situations. Congress probably has the most undisputed "right" to do that, as well as the Justice Department. But with the mindset of the current administration, private citizens put themselves at great risk when they try to penetrate the veil of secrecy.

[napi21]

2. I would think it would depend on what kind of info was published.

Obviously if it were someting that jeprodized national security or military ops, you'd have NO DEFENSE.

If it was info on criminal actions of the gov't, and the info was obtained legally, as in not stolen via B&E, I think you'd be on fairly safe ground...albeit you'd sure have to watch your back and not fly in small planes!

[uppityperson]

3. I have been wondering this also. At what point does a conspiracy happen? (illegal)

Is a conspiracy when more than 1 person work/talk/etc about doing something illegal? What is the definition of espionage? Doesn't mean more than 1 person (that would head into conspiracy), but espionage is seeking out classified info and moving it around. I think. So, is the info classified? Are you working together for an illegal matter? What have they declared illegal, as far as "aiding and abbetting" habeas corpus bullshit?

[Mnemosyne]

4. This maybe? - “Domestic Security Enhancement Act of 2003” (AKA Patriot Act II) Section 102

(#2) Homeland Security Threatens Civil Liberty

Section 102 states that any information gathering can be considered as the pursuit of covert intelligence for a foreign power — even legal intelligence gathering by a U.S. reporter. This provision could make news-gathering illegal, and therefore an act of terrorism. (bold added by me)


http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2004/2.html

[Rock_Garden]

5. That says it all. Thanks! n't

[shadowknows69]

6. I've been waiting for them to take away my base license

since I started my taxi columns. I'd consider that a badge of honor actually. You can't be a good journalist unless you piss someone off.

[Mnemosyne]

8. Quite welcome Rock_Garden. Fascism.

Welcome to DU! :hi:

[hootinholler]

7. Ouch!

I recon we're domed! this si hugh, HUGH!11!

-Hoot

[Mnemosyne]

9. Hay!11! Um series her, damnit. n/t

:evilgrin:

[hootinholler]

10. M R Ducks

:evilgrin:

-Hoot

[Mnemosyne]

11. Stop! U quacking me up!

:rofl:

[hootinholler]

12. I had hoped to stimulate a discussion...

Alas, I seem to have failed.

-Hoot

[krispos42]

13. I think it depends on what conclusions you come to

For example, if you are able to take several non-classified pieces of informaiton and get an outline of a classified project, that might be problematic. Although I would think that they might not be able to prosecute you for finding the unclassified information, but would tell you that advertising the classified info is illegal.

I think a lot of the time people in general and the government in particular get upset when you just continually observe something and make the results public.

For example, the anti-abortion fundie-type people might constantly publish online the movements of an abortion doctor and post information about his movements, habits, vehicles, etc. All based on personal observation, such as pictures taken with a camera.

Not illegal, but damn scary.

Similarly, if you were to publish on the internet how many and what types of aircraft were taking off from your local Air Force base, that might perturbe people as well.

Now, during the Cold War you had no doubt that some Russian spy group was doing that full-time at all air bases, but they weren't making that infomation public to anybody with a computer.

[hootinholler]

14. I think it would be a very fine line...

Part of my question is would the courts be able to appropriately discern where the fine line is? Personally I always cringe when ship or troop movements are reported until I know there has been an official release, but then again I'm a cold-war vet.

In addition to what personal risk we are assuming, what legal implications are there for places like our research forum or social network sites, etc.?

If in fact you can data mine something classified from unclassified info would you necessarily know it's classified when you publish it?

-Hoot

[Rosemary2205]

15. an ordinary citizen caught with classified information

can expect to be rendered to one of those old soviet prisons for "questioning".