Has anyone else noticed the impeachment shift here at DU?

[tavalon]

In the weeks following the House and Senate win, there was a firestorm here at DU between the impeachers and the don't impeachers and between the impeach NOWers and the impeach laterers. All of that seems to have evaporated with the impeach and impeach now winning out. It seems to me that the chimporer is forcing our hand, acting like he's just daring us to stop him.

[rug]

1. Oh, i didn't see the "f".

[tavalon]

11. Well, in November

it wouldn't have had the "f". ;)

[stevietheman]

2. Well, I've gone from "investigate, then impeach" to "physical removal"...

in the past several days. This expansion in Iraq against most people's judgment and the hints of attacking Iran pushed me over the edge.

Coup now!

[SeattleGirl]

13. I'm also at the coup stage.

I absolutely shudder at the thought of the damage the chimp could do in the next two years. He's done enough thus far that it will take a long time to try and repair it.

[Just-plain-Kathy]

57. COUP NOW

:nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

Before it's too late!

[lligrd]

91. Count Me In This Group

too!

[JacksonWest]

118. Coup? Come on. Save the secret service a trip and put a sarcastic icon there.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

3. Can we afford to wait 2 years?

It's going to take years to undo the damage already done. We've got to stop this nutcase from annihilating what's left of our civil liberties, our democracy, our planet.

Allowing this bunch of crooks to dupe the country without consequence will, at best, set the stage for more abuse of power by future presidents. At worst...well, I shudder to think.

[EFerrari]

75. No, we can't. They already killed NOLA. Who is next? n/t

[tavalon]

76. Atlanta, perhaps

There are a lot of brown people there too. I am of the opinion that the lack of response in NOLA had to do with the predominant ethnicity and economic stature of the folks who were impacted (in addition to the general ineptitude of the Bushites, of course).

[Warpy]

4. Yeah, and Stupid's speech last week did it

because it's obvious he's already planned to widen the war to Iran and Syria, not end it. Given the lack of trained military, he's probably going to keep purging the Pentagon of truth tellers until he's got a command structure willing to let him use nukes.

THAT is the reason for the shift.

[tavalon]

21. Yeah, he's been itching to use nukes

He's nucking futz.

[aquart]

5. Yes. I really appreciate George's help in this.

[omega minimo]

62. that's it!

:spray:

[EFerrari]

70. Me, too. First gesture I could actually appreciate.

Thanks, Junior!

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. yes I have noticed that

and I see the same change in my email box.

Impeachment is inevitable. It's nice to see more and more folks accepting that.

[tavalon]

10. Yeah

It's an easy transition for me because while I wasn't particularly interested in joining in the argument, I was impeach and impeach now since we gained congress. But I do find the shift interesting. Now we have to convince Nancy Pelosi that the shift has come and it's safe to use the "I" word now.

In other words, the table cloth is set, go ahead and put impeachment back on the table.

[cool user name]

18. Abso-fucking-lutely ...

Two things that have me quite puzzeled.

1) Why take Impeachment off the table, unsolicited, in the first place? :wtf:

2) Why not pounce on the nightmarish speech presented by the Moron-In-Chief to immediately say that impeachment proceedings are clearly back on the table? This would demonstrate to the American people that Congress is back and not to be trifled with.

[tavalon]

20. I can answer the first one

And it's the reason I didn't freak at the time. It is a political ploy meant to take the wind out the Thugs sails. They wanted to use the impeachment boogieman to hogtie the Congress and Pelosi took it away. I knew it was a political game and meant nothing towards the eventual impeachment. I also knew that Pelosi would wait until the public demanded it, shrug her shoulders and put that impeachment baby right back up on the table.

I'm confused as to why she isn't using this moment, with this rage in the public to go ahead and do it. Maybe on Monday?

[cool user name]

26. Let's hope so ...

... because she's giving me heart palpitations ... and I'm only 34. :wow:

[druidity33]

109. MLK day, no session... n/t

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

33. Pelosi said it's off the table. . . (until there are 67 Yes votes in the Sentate)

Now we have to convince Nancy Pelosi that the shift has come and it's safe to use the "I" word now.

Pelosi won't start until she knows Reid can finish.

The day Harry Reid counts noses and there are 67 yes votes in the Senate, impeachment will move so fast it will make your head spin.

[omega minimo]

105. Where did she say that about votes? Gotta link?

[tavalon]

106. Actually, I don't think she said that

but given that her statement is completely political, it would follow that it was based on whether they had the votes to convict. Of course, I think the bigger motivation in her statement was to hobble those who would accuse the Dems of being impeach happy.

[omega minimo]

107. See #51

:hi:

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

117. She didn't say that. That's why there are the () around it.

Sorry that wasn't clear.

IMO, the "off the table" statement is just political noise.

[omega minimo]

121. "just political noise"? Like the "67 votes" thing? see #51

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

122. IMO, Pelosi made that statement to stop a bunch of spinning by the RW

I simply believe that Pelosi's statement was pure politics and her position will change if we have the votes to remove W's sorry ass from office. Until that time, Waxman, Conyers et al will conduct hearings to investigate BushCo using the committees we now chair.

These are routine oversight hearings and used to be the norm for Congress.

BTW, most of what I post is simply anonymous opinion. I don't claim to be an authority and generally don't have the time to source my posts like a journalist.

OTOH, I've participated in politics since McGovern's campaign in 1972 and have seen a lot of horseshit statements made to deflect attention from this and that issue. That's how I read Pelosi's statement.

[goclark]

47. He needs a straight jacket

and an escort to the Betty Ford Center ----

[proud2BlibKansan]

50. No straight to The Hague

maybe they have psychiatric services there?

[goclark]

116. Good idea, I have vowed to book my tickets

to be right there wuth my banner saying "He is a WAR CRIMINAL."

[tavalon]

54. No on the Betty Ford Center

Yes to the Hague. That's where all the best war criminals go.

[goclark]

67. I agree, I'm just trying to get him OUT of the WH

Then they can move him to the Hague for his trial.


:bounce:

[bluewave]

7. Much of it was the surge, but also the escalation with Iran

Some thought maybe Bush realized he was not a dictator. Sadly mistaken.

[KoKo]

8. Most DU'ers are sort of "out of the mainstream thing" unless one looks at

the folks in the "DU Lounge" who are very Centrist and enjoy life and live it to the fullest no matter what is going on ....they are survivors who find fun in everything.

The rest of us here "above board" live in dread of "one more blow to our Psychies...feeling like battered and abused spouses.

So...given that DU has a broad spectrum of folks who are rebellious by nature but some of us are the "cream" and others of us are the "whey" it would seem that on any given day we could have Pro-Impeach, Wait and See, and Don't Rock the Boat.

[tavalon]

12. So, do you think what I'm seeing isn't an actual shift

Just today's perspective?

[KoKo]

23. You might be seeing a "shift." I've been here when DU was so small

that I need to take into consideration all the new DU'ers who maybe aren't filled with the sense of outrage that I still feel. And, even folks who've been here as long as I have maybe have left their "sense of outrage" long ago with blow after blow from the "Bush Crime Family," all these years.

I think that amongst the New Folks to DU ...that their might have been a change in their views. DU is going to get folks who have just "AWAKENED" to the threat of the Bush Crime Family.

so...what you've noticed is probably correct in what you've noticed since you've been here on DU. :shrug: Being here longer and seeing how many "Liberal Voices" we've lost...probably makes me more cautious.

[tavalon]

25. I was actually talking about the difference between November and now

So, really just three months and some change.

[KoKo]

27. I think what I was trying to get to is that

new DU Members (not you) but others..might have not understood what the Bushies were really going at: Destroying our Constitution,and making Government Irrelevant in the BUSH Emperical Doctrines. Many new DU'ers only looked at Govt. from History Teachers and their own "new experience." They might have wanted us to be more cautious about Impeachment and even Oldie DU'ers might have balked hoping that "other forces" would have "checked the Bush Crime Family once Dems regained the Power.

The shift you see is that finally we can see that the BUSHIES ARE AN EVIL EMPIRE and they will DRAG US DOWN THEIR RAT HOLE as fast as they can.

Some "cautious" Dems didn't really see him as the evil that many of us here saw him when He and Poppy's GANG denied Al Gore the Presidency and instead installed this Moron, Idiot, Puppet TOOL!

"Hope Springs Eternal in the Human Breast" ...some Poet (I can't remember) once said. Maybe the HOPE didn't Spring when the Chimpy said in his Latest Dictate to American People that "I Will DO WHAT I NEED TO, SO I CAN KEEP "the people" SAFE. :shrug: What HE THINKS "HIS" GOD TELLS HIM TO DO...well it might be VERY DIFFERENT than what the rest of the WORLD and his fellow AMERICANS "GOD" is telling THEM TO DO!

[Jackpine Radical]

37. We're of about the same vintage around here, KoKo,

and I think of similar mindsets on most things.

For me, the issue of Impeach Now or Impeach Later is purely one of strategy. What is going to be most effective, what is going to leave liberals in the best position to turn the wheel to the left and keep it there after we've pitched the reactionary jetsam overboard?

I always interpreted the "off the table" comment as a purely political maneuver, an acknowledgement that we need to get the public behind us before we do anything drastic. Investigations need to precede impeachment--you know the line of logic. Bring all the nasty, deceitful and treacherous Republican maneuverings out into the open. let the public see them for what they are, and start passing out the torches and pitchforks when the public demands them.

I think that situation has changed very drastically in the last couple of weeks. The Administration seems to have suddenly become aware of the perils they face with a Democratic Congress, and may be contemplating desperate moves in response. The escalation is one of those moves, and the possibility of war with Iraq or Syria becomes frighteningly more real when viewed from this perspective, when one contemplates the fact that they may not care whether they can win an expanded war in the Middle east, that their only concern is to divert public and Congressional attention away from exposure of their misdeeds.

The question of Investigate or Impeach may be of decreasing relevance. Investigation and impeachment are slow processes. The only "I-word" that may matter is "Incapacitate." We gotta get the football away from those guys. We gotta make sure they can't pitch us into the Abyss.

[KoKo]

43. "Incapacitate." FOR SURE!

Well Said...and I agree.......as you thought I might. :D

[spanone]

9. His arrogance post election capped by his 'fuck you' speech, Impeach the bastard.

[magellan]

14. I transitioned from "impeach now" to "let investigations rally the public"

...to my current and resolute "drag the whole lot out by their fucking heels and send them to the Hague NOW". And yes, I've noticed the shift towards more immediate action in other DUers as well. But I have to say that I fear much worse will be carried out by Bush** before the country and Congress catch up. There isn't any sense of urgency from Congress, and BushCo are still steps ahead of them.

[tavalon]

16. I think we need to create the urgency in the Congress

For they have no spine, brain or heart without us.

[bananarepublican]

46. Actually, a quick removal from office would benefit the Republicans!

Fortunately, the idiots don't understand this.

Let the investigations be wide-ranging, thorough, and excruciating for Bush and his neocon cohorts.

Also, I'd like to see Bush pardon 'Scooter' only to have Fitgerald then indict Cheney. Does this make me a bad person?

[tavalon]

53. This makes you a person who believes in the "rule of law"

[magellan]

84. The people who will benefit are those who won't be slaughtered

...while Congress twiddles its thumbs. It's past time to stop this madman and his henchmen.

[cool user name]

15. Yes, and it's about fucking time ...

:hi:

[Chichiri]

17. I myself am a part of that shift.

Went from not-impeach to impeach. I want the fuckers GONE.

[tavalon]

19. The thing I find interesting is that the arguments are gone

There doesn't seem to be anyone left to argue against impeachment. If there are any, I suspect they would argue that even tougher things need to be done, you know, like, screw impeachment, we need to indict and imprison!

[ellisonz]

22. Actually...

I doubt there were many "don't impeachers" and the impeach "correctly" crowd seems to have made their point and effectively won the debate.

:hide:

[tavalon]

24. It was quite the heated time here for a while

so I think there were more than you realize. The hilarious thing is I think the one person who swayed the "don't impeachers" was GWB. He made a great argument for impeachment this last week. Very persuasive fellow he is. :crazy:

[KoKo]

28. His "personal psychodrama" calls out for an AMERICAN INTERVENTION

....but since he's RUN by CHENEY and the AEI and other forces...he's kind of drowning in his OWN CHOICES...dontcha think?

He's the Manager of the Team ...his Poppy Owns the Team...what's the Poor Guy to Do when he's leader the team to loss after loss, season after season...he falls on his sword or he "CARRIES ON!"

[ellisonz]

73. I must have missed them because of finals...

I still question the "presence" of the "don't impeachers."

A vocal minority is just that, a minority, and I'm betting this one was pretty small. But's who counting? The reality is cruelly incomprehensible (more people dying for nothing), and yet we have reason for optimism.

[omega minimo]

60. dingading ding ding ding-- we have a winner!

:toast:

[JitterbugPerfume]

29. I don't see how it can be avoided

at this point in time . He seems to be asking for it

[cynthia]

49. Spot on!

He is asking for it all right! Just when you think it can't get any crazier, * always rises to the occasion. And tomorrow night on 60 minutes we'll hear him say, he's going to send in the 21,500 troops even if the Congress tries to stop him.

[tavalon]

55. I thought that was tonight?

[cynthia]

77. "I've made my decision and we're going forward"

From the CBS News website it says it will be on Sunday night:

President Bush
Sunday, Jan. 14 at 8 p.m. ET/PT

The president sits down with Scott Pelley in his first interview after his Iraq speech, considered by many to be the most important of his presidency. This Sunday, Jan. 14 at 8 p.m. ET/PT.

You can watch the short "teaser" video clip at

http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/60minutes/main3415.shtml

[tavalon]

80. Methinks

That by 9pm, Madame Speaker may just be changing her mind about those tables and what is on them.

[cynthia]

81. And how many more senators do we need?

I hold out hope that there are enough sane republican senators who still are paying attention.

[tavalon]

83. I'm not the whip so I don't know

I know we have to have 67. How many we actually have, who knows?

[cynthia]

88. The whip will have to hold the dems together

and then I think it may take 17 from the other side. I'll bet we can count on Bernie Sanders but Joe Lieberman is anybody's guess. Snowe and Collins from Maine might listen to their constituents but most of those other Rs are from states that I don't know. I wish I could be at all hopeful that Coleman would support impeachment but he is such an ass-kisser. The only reason he is in office is that Wellstone was killed.

[tavalon]

94. Ah, Joe Lie-berman

The consummate ass. I wish we never had to deal with him again!

[cynthia]

99. my hope rests on the few who have come out against the "surge"

escalation

"Hagel, Voinovich, Coleman, Collins, Snowe, Smith and Brownback as well as several House members have all come out against the escalation. "


according to Nicole Bell on Crooks and Liars

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/01/12/swimming-against-the-surge/


but some of us in Minnesota believe that Coleman saying he's against escalation is a political move - being too closely allied with * didn't help Mark Kennedy (rep who ran for senate and lost to Amy Klobuchar). So while he is against escalation, would he go so far to vote for impeachment. Let's hold up a finger here for a minute, or maybe wait for the next Minnesota Poll in the local paper.

[tavalon]

108. Thank you, BTW

for putting quotes around "surge" and calling it escalation instead. Good framing. It's funny, the other day I did a rant where I said I was going to take everyone who used surge to task. I made quite a stink but I was behind the curve because after that I couldn't find a single post to do what I said I was going to do. It had already taken hold by the time I pitched my fit! Lol.

I feel sorry for you having Coleman, he is such a poor Senator on his own, as a replacement for the best Senator ever though, wow, that hurts.

[cynthia]

115. thank you for calling Wellstone the best senator ever

I used to be so proud of him even when, especially when, he stood alone on certain issues. He wouldn't bend to the prevailing winds and stuck to his guns. He kept saying, the people who sent me here...... It made me wonder if the rest of them forgot the folks back home when they went to Washington, or forgot their campaign promises.

When you drive around here, you can still see Wellstone! green bumper stickers on cars. I wish I had one. I think I won't begin to get over Paul's murder until Coleman is out of that office.

[KoKo]

30. BTW...we Americans can't get both Bush & Cheney out fast enough...BUT

what about the "rest of the team?" How do we "remove" the followers and sychophants who are waiting and biding time and going after Dems in the "bought and paid for MSM" who will follow into a NEW Administration (even Democrat) and Grandchildren will have to deal once again with ANOTHER EVIL EMPIRE? HOW do WE STOP THIS?

Will it be that an Ideology Change does it...but think of Tony Blair in GB whom the Liberals couldn't throw out because NO ONE wanted to return to Margaret Thatcher's REGIME...

YET...rather than Thatcher they supported a Bush PUPPET because the alternative in their MEMORIES was TOO TERRIBLE TO CONTEMPLATE. Many BRIT DU'ers have said that Blair got his POWER because of the fear of the TORIES!

Yet, Blair joined with Bush was a POWERHOUSE...leading us down this road to EMPIRE of FAILED DREAMS!

[seafan]

39. John Dean has some ideas

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3016754">for the sycophants, lackeys and up-and-coming young neocons


It really all comes down to whether this new Congress has the will to use the tools available to them right now, to act to preserve our Constitution and rights.

On these people we need to focus, and exert As. Much. Pressure. As. We. Possibly. Can.

Congress has all the power they need to remove individuals below */Cheney who have sufficient evidence against them.


The Dems all wear ruby slippers, but don't believe they actually have the power to go after the dictator and his master.

All of us out here just have to *convince them.*

[druidity33]

110. A New Dept of Peace!

As proposed by Da Kooch from Ohio!

He was railing on the floor of Congress the other day and blew my mind. He called the * Administration Fascists! I loved it. The type of man that could change the face of this country for generations. A true visionary.

To Kucinich!
:toast:

(yeah that's right, I'm a Kucinich kook... you wanna make somethin' of it?)
;)

[Jack Rabbit]

31. Yes, I have noticed that

While everyone is aware that DU is not a cross section of American opinion, it would be interesting to see a scientific survey measuring if there has been any kind of shift nationally on this matter.

[mzmolly]

32. I too am a "shiftee" I think the best way to fight terror is to impeach Bush!

However, I remain respectful of those who disagree. :hi:

[jhain]

34. YEAH, BABY!!!! n/t

[Tess49]

35. A large sign recently went up (within the week) at a small office

building that sits across the street from our Courthouse. It is large and very well done. It says:

SUPPORT OUR TROOPS
IMPEACH BUSH/CHENEY

I am in the heart of Oklahoma.

[tavalon]

36. I'm not sure what cockles are but I believe they're located by or in the heart

and what you said warms the cockles of my heart.

[Tess49]

45. My heart was greatly cheered, too. That sign is standing

tall and proud. It is beautiful for many reasons.

[EFerrari]

59. Yeah, baby!

Go, OK!

:yourock:

[puebloknot]

38. Yes! And now there's another very important shift going on!

Given GW's public assertion that he doesn't give a rip about what the Congress thinks, impeachment is *so* 2006.

George Bush is mentally ill, was when he was installed as dictator, and is growing more erratic every day.

We cannot afford the nicety of impeachment, even if we could get it off the ground. We need to man (and "woman") the phones, organize group visits (that's short of a protest), and let our leaders know that we want this man removed now. We Dems need to call Republicans. We should not assume that the "R" after their names means they will all loyally go down with the ship. And it's more evident every hour that the ship is taking on water.

Every moment that we take to strategize and agonize means the death of another American or another Iraqi!

I think Will Pitt may be right that the party is basically over, but there are still a lot of people who brought their sleeping bags, and aren't ready to go home just yet.

[tavalon]

41. So now the argument is around

whether we imprison or straightjacket?

[puebloknot]

42. Either will do. Let's get at it! nt

[Selah]

40. Then stop him already

[AtomicKitten]

44. I think people have discovered patience.

However, I think there is no question it will require impeachment of both Bush and Cheney to stop their warmongering. Subpoenas will be issues and investigations begun in earnest. Republicans are abandoning the sinking SS Bushtanic. One foot in front of the other; it is just a matter of time. The matter is urgent but I think people are getting on board the notion of patience.

[otherlander]

48. If I can be honest...

Even before the elections, I was never against it, but it seemed like, well, a pipe dream. Now it actually seems like there's a chance.

[tavalon]

56. Thank Bush

He's a one man juggernaut when it comes to getting the nation united for impeachment.

He was a uniter! Who knew?

[omega minimo]

51. Informed impeachment DUers showed that naysayers had no supporting facts, only assumptions

and that they were playing word games with us (how many times did they put up a stink and then claim "oh, well I believe in impeachment but...") and mind games with themselves.

:evilgrin: :hi:


Yeah, and what aquart said. Post #5


And ellisonz #22.

[Roland99]

52. I thought the same thing earlier today. Lots more impeachment talk.

[EFerrari]

58. All I can tell you is my 75 yr old mom and I are making plans to go to the march.

We both can't take the time off and we both hate to fly.

:shrug:

[tavalon]

63. I sure wish I could go

I have to buy a Prius at the end of the month so I'm cash poor. I think this one is going to make the Sept 24, 2005 one look like a small gathering. I feel the storm brewing.

[EFerrari]

66. I guess it doesn't really feel like a choice any more.

And January is one helluva month to do that kind of cash outlay, but, that's what I mean.

It's happening. :shrug:

/ack

[tavalon]

69. I feel the pull, I tell ya

I feel it more each day. Damn, damn, damn.

[NotGivingUp]

61. huge shift that i am vey glad for! n/t

[bleever]

64. I agree.

The speed with which things can go from impossible to inevitable is one of the amazing things about life to me.

[earth mom]

65. Actually, I still haven't seen the most vocal Anti-Impeachment

DUers say they were wrong yet. I'm still waiting for them to admit they were wrong...because it will sweet satisfaction. :evilgrin:

However, knowing how much they will hate to admit they were wrong, I won't hold my breath. :eyes:

[tavalon]

68. I don't keep track of such things

Too much for my wee little mind.

[earth mom]

72. I haven't kept track of every one of them either....

Just the ones that repeatedly made big long winded statements against it in every thread they possibly could and who seemed to follow those of us who were for Impeachment around from thread to thread. There were also a few I remember who posted long threads against it too.

People are going to have differences of opinion around here-I get that. But be big enough to admit you are wrong when you are wrong.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

71. Well, Ya Have To Admit,

All this blatant defiance and obliviousness to reality, with seemingly imminent disaster on the horizon, kinda makes the issue more pressing ya know?

I still am firmly in the camp of not putting the cart before the horse though, and going through legitimate and responsible congressional investigations first that build a strong enough case to present to the rest of congress and the american people. I still think the original group of impeach now'ers did so negligently and recklessly. It is also still almost a completely futile concept since it is as close to fact as fact can possibly be that the conviction of impeachment would never in a million years be successful, even though some will foolishly claim "hey, no one knows for sure, you don't know how the repubs will vote! 16 of them may easily vote to impeach!". Yes, we do know. Anyone with the slightest whiff of common sense knows. They won't. And then there's still the whole issue of ya know, Dick Cheney then being president, and I don't think you can tell me his policies will be better.

So many might condone the concept of impeachment more now, but that still doesn't change the overwhelming and possibly frustrating reality that not only is it doomed to failure and insignificance, but that the alternative once impeached is even worse. More might want impeachment, but it still either ain't gonna happen or won't help change a damn thing when it comes down to it.

But if we start a war with Iran or the administration continues its congressional defiance and most likely illegal behavior, then even I would start preaching for impeachment even while knowing it would be an utter failure. But I know almost anyone here would still agree that theoretically our nation would still be better off with him just gone already. Unfortunately, then we're left with cheney.

Who knows anymore. At some point we probably are going to need to stand up to him, but for now we just need to let Congress do their investigations and take it from there.

[tavalon]

74. I think that Congress (both houses)

put their noses to the wind and they are, for the most part, pretty good sniffers. If they weren't, they wouldn't have risen to the top, so to speak. Impeachment is on the wind. They'll pick up the scent. We already have enough information to impeach, ask Conyers. He has it already done. He didn't have anything else to do when they wouldn't let him have a voice as a minority player on the Judiciary committee. All we need is the political will and I see the backbone coming together rather rapidly. So rapidly, in fact, my head is spinning.

[EFerrari]

78. Doomed to failure and insignificance? Are you kidding?

Are we talking about the same resident?

Tell it to the people he's holding in secret and torturing.

Tell it to the people being deployed for the fourth time in a "war" for Halliburton.

Tell it to the people of Afghanistan and Iraq and now, Somalia, where he's killing indiscriminately.

Tell it to the Gulf Coast.

You know, I honestly think it's the opposite. This resident has been so terrible for this country, that enumerating his crimes feels like hard work.

We have some hard work ahead of us.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. Do You Truly Believe Right Now There Are 16+ Republican Senators That Will Vote To Convict?

If you don't, then it is doomed to failure. That's how it works ya know.

So stop making it like that's my choice or that my opinion in that somehow harms those people you mention. I'm merely stating the obvious, whether you like it or not.

Unless you can provide something substantial as to how you are going to get that many members of the other side to convict, then there is zero reason to believe the impeachment process would be anything but a failure. That's just simple reality and math, no matter how much we wish it were different.

[EFerrari]

86. You have a point. But we don't know how fast the rats will abandon

ship when they are faced with the choice.

That's what happened to Nixon.

And, I apologize if my response seemed personal. It wasn't.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

95. My Apologies Back For Taking It That Way If It Hadn't Been Intended As Such.

:)

I replied a few posts down to another poster, but I could've posted the same thing in reply to you and other posters in this subthread as well. I just didn't want to type the same thing over and over LOL

[EFerrari]

98. lol.

Happy New Year, OMC.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

100. Happy New Year To You As Well, Sfexpat.

:hug:

[tavalon]

87. Um, there is the part where the Senate tries him

That's where all the dirt gets trotted out. And we have a veritable mountain of dirt. After the laundry has been aired, I suspect we'll have 80 Senators and 10 more who won't have the guts to vote.

[libnnc]

89. like the poster upthread said, we may see more rats jumping

They're getting pretty damn antsy. When it becomes absolutely obvious to the public that the nutsack-in-chief and his handlers intend for us never to leave Iraq and attack Iran, when that sinks in, who knows what the rank and file GOPers on the Hill will do.

We're living in interesting times for sure.

[tavalon]

90. I think tomorrow's 60 minutes will clinch it

I'm surprised that Bush chose a mainstream channel rather than Faux for his swan dive.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

92. To Yours And The Posts Above Yours:

To a point I agree. I kinda hinted towards that in my original reply. If the outright defiance of bi-partisan concepts continues, and it becomes even clearer that he is hell bent on always doing the wrong things in the wrong ways, then it could be quite possible that impeachment becomes a bi-partisan effort. I think if things go down certain paths that could be entirely possible.

But speaking in terms of today and right now, or the terms of after the election when the impeach now'ers were already revving, then it is and was a futile concept. As of right now, as things stand today with what's occurred thusfar, there is no way in hell it would have a chance at success. Like I said, I've seen some foolishly exclaim that 'we just have no idea what would happen, no one does!', but that's just complete denial of reality. Of course we know what would happen right now if we pushed through articles of impeachment and brought it to the Senate. It would fail just like I said.

But who knows what tomorrow will bring. For the first time I'm seeing this administration reallllly start to piss off members of its own party, and even more than show it. I'd wager there are plenty who are beginning to detest shrubby even though they dare not speak up about it right now. So if he continues his blatant disregard and rhetoric towards Congress as a whole, I'd say your scenario could well unfold. But I was talking about right now and in the recent past when those spouting 'impeach now!' over and over as if they had tourette's syndrome, and how if done in that reckless manner it would be completely destined to fail; and it would be.

But I agree with you. If certain things happen in certain ways, then we absolutely might see a bi-partisan push someday. I just think we still need to go through certain legitimate steps and have other things occur before the concept of impeachment even carries any legitimacy. And even then, we still have the whole 'Oh fuck, dick cheney's president!' nightmare to worry about regardless.

[tavalon]

96. But what about the part of the impeachment process

where they present evidence. Doesn't that have some influence? Or is it really just a dog and pony show, a done deal before it starts? I'm not being argumentative here, I really want to know if it's like a trial. See, I wasn't paying adequate attention during the witchhunt for Clinton and I was too young to know much at all about what was happening with Nixon.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

97. Technically You Are Right.

Unfortunately in terms of realism, doesn't really work like a court of law. In a court of law, theoretically, it is only the facts that in the end matter and whether a bar of guilty beyond reasonable doubt has been reached. With impeachment, no such bar exists. It is solely up to the members of congress to vote how they want regardless of fact or otherwise. In today's day and age of overly partisan politics, it would take a hell of a lot more then what he's done so far in order for 16 or more members from his side of the aisle to join with us. That might be sad, but it's true. We may strongly believe that the mountain of evidence would be so damning that there's no way anyone of any party could vote against it, but in reality the only way the repubs will vote for it is if and when bush pisses them off for their own reasons to such a degree that they would take such an extreme measure and abandon loyalty. And let me be blunt: There are no where near enough of them ready to do that yet. But if he keeps it up and gets even worse, then who knows.

And don't worry, I don't mind argument or debate. Just as long as there isn't any childish name calling of freeper or 'mindfuck' or other mindless unproductive smears, while ignoring the context altogether. As long as you address the context or substance, feel free to argue or passionately disagree with me all ya want. It's all good. :) (but thanks for issuing the clarity anyway. Civility is refreshing!)

[tavalon]

101. Damn

That's sad, because I really did think the mountain of evidence would be enough. I'm a bit crushed. Sometimes I think I'm just too idealistic for politics.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

102. Think About It: If It Was A Straightforward Kind Of Process Without Severe Partisanship Being

injected, he would've been impeached already even when the Republicans were in the majority, and the Administration would've never been able to get away with half of the shit they have.

But unfortunately, it all does at the end of the day come down to politics, even to a degree for the Dems as well.

[tavalon]

104. Very good point

I am now deflated. Oh well, there's still the hope that Bush will seal his fate tomorrow.

[omega minimo]

85. Yes

"Are you kidding?"

[Zhade]

79. It seems some were shocked out of being cautious (or cowardly).

It's a good thing.

[Tatiana]

93. It's not just here on DU. The impeachment movement has gone national.

I live in a pretty centrist community which tilts right. Just in my area, I've seen three "Impeach Bush" signs on front lawns. This is BIG.

People are not only realizing that Bush himself is one of the biggest threats to our national security. They are finally accepting that they were wrong to support and trust him on this Iraq invasion. It's a major step towards progress for the uninformed/corporatist/right-wing sheeple.

[EFerrari]

103. That's so good to hear.

Man, Americans are not stoopid. Maybe the 33%ers hang onto their wacky beliefs long after they have been proven to be wacky, but Junior is losing them, too.

We can do this. We can get these criminals out of leadership and hold our heads up in the world community again. We can do this.

:kick:

[pat_k]

111. The shift will continue as enthusiasm for defending the indefensible dies.

The process of recognizing that we MUST rescue our tortured Constitution and that impeachment is the http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Senator">ONLY weapon we have against the torturers, is oneway. Just as the process of learning the truth about the stolen elections is oneway.

Once a person see the truth, they never "unlearn" it. There is no going back. And more and more people are seeing the truth everyday.

"I'd love him to be impeached, but we don't want to rile the reactionary right. They'll call us names" doesn't generate much passion.

When directly challenged, the fear-based rationalizations and defenses for Pelosi's "off the table" edict break down. More and more Pelosi defenders are "coming around. Others are undoubtedly hanging onto their poisonous and immobilizing notions (1), but fewer and fewer of them are able to muster the will to publicly argue for those self-defeating rationalizations.

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/pat_k/17">"If the impeachment provision in the Constitution. . ." --Barbara Jordan

---------------------
(1) "Can't win, so don't fight" for our most treasured principles or "The backlash beast will get us" or "Can't have Impeachment Hearings. We need investigations instead" investigations that say one thing: we don't have a case.

[truedelphi]

112. It's like when Bad Daddy has been handed the restraining order

(That would be the election upset of Nov 2006) and decides to beat up Mom and several more of the
kids just to prove to himself that he's still the man.

Doesn't always work out so well for Bad Daddy.

[happydreams]

113. I hate to admit it but Bush was correct about one thing....

He is definitely a uniter. Even the repuggies are starting to cross the aisle. IMO there will be a bipartisan move to impeach if he tries to widen the conflict.

Good post.

[Beacho]

114. I was a "Impeachment not needed" member

Not anymore.

Now it's a matter of national survival

[porphyrian]

119. Just wait. - n/t

[jollyreaper2112]

120. I know what you mean

I was in the "let's investigate, have hearings, and let the call for impeachment come from the people." But shit, we gotta nuke him now.