about the duke lacrosse case...they put themselves in this situation

[greenbriar]

those moms are outraged, but those boys opened themselves up to this


something happened

and if they were so innocent, there would not have been alcohol and strippers in the first place

and if the girls hadn't been strippers ...


NOTHIGN good can come from this for EITHER side

and it has set a bad precident for women who truly raped



but I really hate hannity and et all proclaiming how innocent those boys were. ....

that is all

maybe I am not fully expressing what I mean I get really outraged by this case

[bigwillq]

1. So if you drink and mingle with strippers

you're automatically guilty?

:shrug:
"if they were so innocent, there would not have been alcohol and strippers in the first place"

[greenbriar]

3. NO>>>I am saying they are not innocent of everything and something happened

that people are so upset at the girl aggrevates me

[bigwillq]

7. I haven't really followed the case.

I really don't give two shits.

I just wanted to question you on your comment about ----innocent, alcohol, strippers, etc...

and you answered it.

[murray hill farm]

37. What u are saying sounds a lot like...

"she was asking for it" by the way she dressed, etc...as some sort of explanation for being raped. When a woman is raped, it is just a sexist attempt to blame the victim. What you arre saying is that the guys asked for it by drinking and having a stripper at their party....u blame the victims of this fraud. It is the same mind set...and not right either way.

[HooptieWagon]

64. You are correct

Blaming the players is just like blaming a rape victim for "putting herself in that situation". By all appearances, both the players and strippers used poor judgement, however, that does not excuse the poor judgement and obstruction of justice and other possible criminal actions by the DA.

[BoneDaddy]

178. Agreed

Guilt is implied by engaging in those activities by the OP. come on now.

[Totallybushed]

39. What happened is

that the stripper lied. This is beyond any dispute, whatsoever.

Even if something happened, it doesn't mean any kind of charges should be brought. Unless the something was a crime. The only one who seems to have committed a crime was the stripper.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

44. "The girl" lied. That doesn't "aggravate" you? (n/t)

[greenbriar]

46. yea it does

like I said

both sides aggravate me

[Totallybushed]

95. Which side aggravates

you the worse??

Just curious.

[pnwmom]

74. What evidence do you have that they were guilty of ANYTHING

beyond underage drinking?

And I'm talking about the three accused students specifically.

None of the three were accused of making racial remarks or making suggestive comments about a broomstick. One of them spent much of the evening on the phone to his girlfriend, and then left early. None of them (or any of the 46 team members) have DNA that matches the DNA found on the woman (which belongs to several other unidentified men -- which is odd, because she had claimed not to have had sex for a week). All of them have passed lie detector tests.

So what is your evidence? The accused's statements, which are full of contradictions, and also contradict those of her own driver and the other dancer?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

174. You're aggravated that people think making a false allegation of rape is serious?

You disgust me. There evidence makes it clear that the girl lied, and that it is very likely indeed that the accused are completely and utterly innocent, despite your poorly-defined and unsupported allegations that in some sense they aren't.

Trying to get someone wrongfully convicted of rape is an incredibly serious offence.

Your views are *precisely* equivalent to those of people who allege that women who are raped while e.g. wearing tight clothing are "asking for it", and every bit as disgusting. You should be deeply ashamed of having posted this thread.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

2. No one believes those young men are saints...

(except maybe their mothers), but we don't know what, if anything, happened. This case has been a huge clusterphuck since Day 1.

[greenbriar]

4. true...I think there was wrong doing on BOTH sides

but the moms are going to be outraged at how their Innocent boys were treated...

[WorseBeforeBetter]

18. Agreed, but think if it were your son. What would your reaction be?

Let's say they were "innocent," wouldn't you be outraged? Trust me, I'm not defending them, but "rapist" could haunt them for life. How long have their lives been on hold (1 year or longer?). If they are guilty they should be held accountable, but this case is unraveling by the day. If the stripper lied, shame on her. She's made it more difficult for women to come forward if raped, and dare I say particularly more difficult for black women. Durham didn't need this shit, and I'm waiting for the civil suits to be filed.

[SharonRB]

22. I have no doubt she lied

She changes her story everytime she opens her mouth.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

27. 60 Minutes segment is on now.

I just can't believe how phucked up this case is - nothing good will come of it. I'm pulling a Grissom here - let the DNA speak (and speak early!).

[SharonRB]

28. I agree

I'll only be watching another couple of minutes before I switch over to "Desperate Housewives."

[Totallybushed]

42. Shame on her,

my shiny white hienie. She deserves some serious jail time. If she lied, of course. Which all the publically known evidence indicates that she did.

So does Mr. Nifong for stirring up racism in the black community in Durham for political gain. This is the sort of thing to be expected from Republicans, not Democrats. I am ashamed for my party.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

50. No argument here.

I have no idea what possessed the stripper to claim what she did. Was she seeking revenge at having racial slurs hurled at her that evening? What did she expect - she was performing at a house of primarily lily white drunken Duke boys (wasn't there one black player who left?). The whole white/black performance thing is troubling. As is the need for two woman to enter some unfamiliar house to strip. A bar with security is one thing, but a private residence entirely another.

I just watched 60 Minutes - it sounds as if Nifong, Duke and Durham are REALLY gonna pay. Nifong is an ass - don't judge the entire Democratic party based on his actions.

[Pale Blue Dot]

52. Sigh. "What did she expect - she was performing at a house of primarily lily white drunken Duke boy

Don't you see the irony of posting that in this thread?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

87. What I see is that there is plenty of poor judgment...

to go all around. I can't put myself in the mindset of a stripper making house calls (let alone a black stripper performing for a bunch of privileged white dudes), but do these women not think of the danger they may be putting themselves in? Perhaps the players sat there like perfect little angels enjoying the show; perhaps they got rowdy and hurled racial epithets. As a woman who has had more than her fair share of "nice 'whatever(s)'" yelled at me from just walking down the street, it's not a stretch for me to believe that testosterone + alcohol + strippers + private residence with no "security" = volatile mix. It's all about the situations we choose to put ourselves in and in this case, it applies to strippers and "strippees" alike.

[Totallybushed]

92. Plenty of poor judgment, true, but

ALL, I repeat ALL, of the moral culpability is on the side of the stripper. Lying little XXXXX.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

110. I dunno...

I kinda have a problem with black women performing for white men, particularly after a friend framed it in "plantation" terms. I just read below where one stripper make a comment about a "limp white dicks" and one of the guys fired back with a racial slur. But that does not make he/them rapists.

[Totallybushed]

112. Why?

Nobody forced these women to go to the party and "perform". Men and women do that, they have sex, too, regardless of race. Would you have the same problem if it was white women and black men. If so, do you think you might have racist tendencies? Maybe the problem should be with women doing that for men at all. But then you would be a prude, according to some.

It's a conumdrum, but frankly, I don't care about the racial aspects of this at all. Racial thinkg is what caused this whole situation to develop in the first place.

[pnwmom]

119. Did you know that they didn't intend for black women to perform for them?

When asked by the escort service, they requested a white or hispanic dancer. So they didn't set out to humiliate some "poor black woman."

[JacksonWest]

176. If you're an escort(not a stripper) it seems like racist comments

would be the least of your worries. Her life sucked beofre this, and it'll probably be better afterwards. No matter what happens, she'll be able to cash in on the fame. As far as the Lacrosse boys, beign accused of a thirty to life felony isn't a fun thing. However, I get the feeling Sean Hannity is going to hire all of them to co-host.

[Totallybushed]

181. Her life is going

to be better in the state pen? Already they got her on violation of her probation. False report and lying to the police. The civil suits that will keep her stripping till she's 105 to pay off.

Yep, I can see how that improves her life.

[JacksonWest]

187. She won't go to the state pen.

The prosecutor is in trouble. She was intoxicated during the events, and there is no perjury here(not under oath). At worse, they can charge her with making a false police report-which doesn't carry a severe penalty(although she's on probation).

Just looking at this thread, and the initial reaction, she will be able to profit off of this. She can give the money to her Father and keep civil suits at bay.

Jesse Jackson has agreed to pay for her future education, regardless of how the case turns out. So, yes, her life will be better.

[Totallybushed]

188. She is in trouble.

And she should be. Regardless of what Jesse (bless his little heart) gives her, the victims should take it away.

She screwed up big time. As for lying to the police, I don't know what your definition of a severe penalty is, but I think she will find out.

And intoxication is not an excuse.

[Totallybushed]

54. I'm not judging

the whole party. But the part that voted for Nifong is to blame. This was all pretty obvious before the election, and has just gotten worse. Some people let themselves be swayed by feeling of ethnic solidarity, or racism, whichever you prefer. Others for possibly other reasons. Just as Nifong planned. What he didn't plan on, these types never do, is that there are consequences to actions, and he could suffer them like other people. The man is a sociopath. The woman is just crazy. They both need to go away for a very long time.

No, the Dems should be ashamed of this man, just like the Repubs should be ashamed of *. And they should say so.

[pnwmom]

79. Here's a possibility concerning her motivation.

She was still on probation for a felony violation involving alcohol. Being caught in an alcohol related offense (she was taken to an alcohol center by the police when she wouldn't leave the other dancer's car) could have put her in jail. By claiming she was raped, she got sent to a hospital instead and was home in a few hours.

[Totallybushed]

94. If anything, that

makes it worse.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

97. The plot thickens.

What a mess.

[pnwmom]

124. I think Nifong had her between a rock and a hard place.

She made the mistake of making the accusation on a self-serving impulse.

Then what did he do when he got the case?
He went on TV. He went to the newspapers. He had more than 50 media interviews, by his own account, which helped him in the election campaign where his nearest opponent had a campaign budget 4 times as high as his. Then he went from being 20 points behind in the election, to winning by a couple of points.

Oh yeah. Since the case was so important to him, he didn't bother to interview the accuser himself, or get anyone else from his office to interview her. He declined to look at any student's alibi, or the lie detector tests of any students. He claimed that the students may have used condoms, though he knew that the tests had showed no evidence of condom residue, and that the accuser had told police that condoms weren't used. He claimed that the medical reports showed the accuser had injuries -- before he had even been sent the medical reports. He pretended that the students might have used date rape drugs -- even though he knew there were no toxicology reports that showed that. And he knew that the 2nd lab had found the DNA of several other men on the woman -- but not the DNA of any of the students -- a week BEFORE he brought the charges to a grand jury and got the indictments.

Nifong has completely lost his moral center. If he ever had one.

[deadmessengers]

63. if?!

"If the stripper lied"?! After all we've seen, is there any doubt at all that she was lying?

[WorseBeforeBetter]

67. But we haven't "seen" all. Yes, she lied and should be held accountable...

but is there no truth to anything claimed about that night? Perhaps, perhaps not. I'm just trying to reserve some judgment before all the facts are in.

[pnwmom]

80. N.C. laws requires all of the prosecution evidence to have been turned over

to the defense by now. And the defense has made all the evidence available to at least a couple of reporters. (One, at MSNBC -- unfortunately, I can't remember his name.) There isn't a case. Or, at least, the reasonable doubt is so great as to overcome any amount of evidence that could still be hiding.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

96. So the case is now with the AG? What next?

This is such a colossal mess - on all levels.

[pnwmom]

131. The AG has passed the case on to special prosecutors.

Unfortunately, the word is that it will take quite some time for them to go through all the evidence and decide what to do.

Meanwhile, there is another court hearing scheduled in February, at which the judge was supposed to rule on the defendant's request to dismiss the case (because of the way the photo-lineup was conducted). I don't know how the change in prosecutor will affect the timing of this hearing . . . wouldn't be surprised if the new prosecutor asked for a delay.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

169. Nifong should get his license yanked

He did not make the exculpatory evidence available to the defense (Jackson v. Denno hearing is what it's called when a hearing is necessary).

Also,the lab owner lied on the lab report about the DNA. Both of them are totally irresponsible. The girl changed her story. However I am wondering WHY Nifong and the lab owner did what they did. Publicity hounds or what?

[Totallybushed]

98. Maybe, let's just assume,

"something" happened that night. Too bad. We will never know what it is because the stripper has no credibility left with any thinking person. Only racial or gender bigots could possibly defend this trial going on any further. There is no evidence, certainly not enough to overcome a presumption of innocence.

[pnwmom]

132. Exactly. In the unlikely event that the students WERE guilty of

something besides underage consumption, we will never know it -- Nifong completely blew the case long ago, with the bogus photo lineup, with not taking a prompt statement from the accuser, etc., etc.

[mondo joe]

69. "Wrong doing"? Do you mean morally wrong or criminally wrong?

Thank you.

[pnwmom]

75. Where is your evidence for wrongdoing other than underage drinking?

On the part of the accused students, I mean. I don't see ANY.

[JacksonWest]

180. One side isn't trying to get the other sent to prison for crimes they didn't commit, expelled from

schools, and destroy their reputations. It's not a valid comparison. If you want to cite underage drinking as a wrongdoing-welcome to college. And High school. And America. How many people wait until they're 21 to drink? What other country in the world bans alcohol until you're 21? Most countries don't even have a true drinking age. As far as hiring a stripper-that was her job. She was an escort/stripper for hire. They didn't drag some girl off the street and demand she strip.

[hughee99]

5. So what your saying was that they were ASKING FOR IT? n/t

[greenbriar]

6. NO...I am saying you put yourself in situations, you should expect

issues


Not saying its right or wrong, it just is


where there is smoke...

[DawgHouse]

23. Or, where there is smoke, there's mirrors.

[hughee99]

36. Putting yourself in a bad situation, though...

shouldn't be a problem as long as you don't to anything wrong. In any case, having strippers and alcohol at a college party probably isn't a good idea, but making those choices in no way justifies what happened to them and their reputation. I'm sure these kids are no angels, but who is? They've just spent the last year or so falsely being called rapists in the national media, and I don't see how they could have possibly seen this coming.

[Totallybushed]

45. Nonsense.

That's blaming the victim.

The woman lied. Hiring a stripper is legal in Durham, so far as I know. The smoke is coming out of Nifong's ass, 'cause he is going to be burned badly for this, and deservedly so.

[mondo joe]

78. Your thread is vomit worthy. It just is.

Honestly.

[pnwmom]

133. This is exactly why we have the right to a fair trial.

And the presumption of innocence. Because so many people are - like you -- ready to believe the worst.

What you see as smoke is probably nothing more than a lot of HOT AIR.

[Pale Blue Dot]

8. This is the same crap that's often spewed about women who are raped

It's total crap in both cases.

[greenbriar]

11. as a woman, the implications from this case scare me

maybe that is why I am so pissed at all those who claim the boys were innocent.

[Solo_in_MD]

19. At this time they are not charged with rape

If the current train of events holds, the three men will have all charges dropped. One in particular has shown that he was not present at the time.

At this time it *looks* to be a false charge, manipulatued by the prosecuter, which should frighten all of us. Every time a false rape, hate, bais, or discrimination charge is leveled, it hurts all the legitimate ones.

[Pale Blue Dot]

21. Then as a woman, you should understand why your statement is so dangerous.

nt

[Totallybushed]

48. What implications?

That liars will be found out, and hopefully punished?

If a woman is raped, there will, and should, be evidence of it. There is none. Now identification may be a little more problematic, but of the rape itself, why wouldn't there be some evidence.

In any event, rape is not a reason to deny these men the full protection of their rights under the Constitution. I think their rights were violated, and I think everybody responsible, including the woman, the DA, and assorted others who let their mouths overload their asses should pay dearly. Jail time for the first two, and hefty civle judgments against all the others.

[pnwmom]

82. Maybe you should be pissed off at the woman for making the

false claim.

She's the one hurting real rape victims. Not the students.

You haven't explained why you're so sure they did "something." What evidence do you have that they did?

[mondo joe]

84. As a citizen I'm pissed at your willingness to blame people who may not have

done anything criminal.

[WindRavenX]

17. you got it

NT

[genie_weenie]

9. Wow!

If you engage in a legal activity, say drinking and/or observing a performer, the Government and multiple groups can make your life a living hell for a year. Nice.

[PsN2Wind]

10. And if she were so innocent

she wouldn't be stripping, for pay, for a buncha guys.

[greenbriar]

13. as I said...there is wrong on both sides

but the implications for women after this worries me


same as the implications after the Kobe rape trial

[Totallybushed]

49. Maybe women should

not put themselves in these situations, eh. Didn't that woman go up to Kobe's room. We all know what professional athletes are like, don't we now.:sarcasm:

Just using your own logic, so don't bother to tell me how it's different for men and women. I don't care.

[TankLV]

12. Agree only in the sense that we are all responsible for our own choices

Similarly that I am not a victum if I get robbed - I chose to be in that place in that particular time.

Responsibility is not the same thing as being to blame or being at fault.

Other than that, once the choices were made, the lacross players were victums of a vicious propaganda campaign and worse.

They should OWN the companies/people involved when this is thru...

and the numbnuts that pushed this have made it difficult for women to seek justice in the future, too...

[greenbriar]

16. thats what I have been trying to say

and the numbnuts that pushed this have made it difficult for women to seek justice in the future, too...


that is where the true problem is

[Occulus]

168. Huh???

"Similarly that I am not a victum if I get robbed - I chose to be in that place in that particular time."

What??

So, if my apartment gets burglarized.. why, I chose to live here, so it's my fault?

If I go to New York ,and I get mugged...

If I ride the bus to downtown, and get xyz'd....

:wtf:

[tularetom]

14. I have really mixed feelings about this case

It looks like the rape charge was out of line, yet it's difficult to work up a lot of sympathy for these typical preppy college repub types. Sorry for the generalization, but c'mon, look at 'em. Maybe they'll all enlist and go to Iraq and prove me wrong...

[Marrah_G]

71. Disgusting

How do you know they are "typical preppy college types?" because they are white and play lacrosse? Do you know that the best sport for a boy to get an athletic scholarship is lacrosse?

My boyfriends son is a freshman going to college on a lacrosse scholarship. His parents are neither rich nor republicans. They are hard working folks from the north shore in MA who have worked their asses off to give thier only child a better chance then they had. He is a good kid, not perfect, with more athletic ability then acedemic ability. In your mind if he goes to a party and there are strippers there then he deserves to have his life ruined. As for enlisting... fuck that, his father is a nam combat veteran- no way he is going to fight for W's oil grab.

This attitude of white + male + college= evil republican rapist is just as racist as saying black + male + no college= gang banging thug. Both are stereo-types based on fear and hate.

[pnwmom]

83. Suppose it was your brother and not someone you already

were prejudiced against for being "typical preppy college repub types." How would you feel then?

I don't think anyone should have to go through false accusations, even if they are Republicans. Geez.

[frankenforpres]

165. cmon, look at them??????????????

imagine if you said that about anyone besides "white preppy boys." imagine the amount of scorn you would receive.

[Hippo_Tron]

172. How do you know their political affiliation?

I'll give you that Republican frat guys far outnumber Democratic frat guys but that doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. How about the one that has been proved not to be present?

[genie_weenie]

26. As the thread stated:

He "opened himself up to this"

"something happened"

If he didn't want to get in trouble he should have... like... gotten a taxi or something and I don't know... stopped for a burger before returning to his room.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. He was elsewhere when the purported events took place

[genie_weenie]

33. Sorry, my attempt at sardonic humor failed

due to the inability to transmit tone and inflection via typewritten words. That was the point of my final paragraph, which listed his activities during the alleged assault.

[pnwmom]

127. Sigh. In the latest, December edition, of the accuser's claims,

the attack happened at about 11:40 -- when Seligmann was still there.

There goes his alibi.

Except:
In this latest version, she is doing her dance between 11:30 and 11:40 -- during a period of time when her cell phone records show she was talking to her father on the phone.
Also, when the attack is now said to have occurred, Seligmann had yet another long call on the phone with his girlfriend.
Also, if you believe her current account -- that the dance happened at 11:30, while she was talking to her father; and that the attack began about 11:40, a few minutes before Seligmann began talking to his girlfriend -- then you still have to explain why the time stamped videotapes show the two dancers performing at midnight.

[Totallybushed]

51. Golly,

I guess he forgot to charge up his crystal ball that day.

Maybe if he'd gotten into a taxi, he would have been caught in some kind of gang war 'cause the driver was the uncle of someone who had pissed somebody off. Betch didn't think of that one.

[Kingshakabobo]

20. Nothing like blaming the victims.

Sorry, hiring a stripper is not a crime punishable by malicious prosecution, official misconduct, testilying and a potential 40 years to life sentence pressed by an overzealous prosecutor looking to get re-elected..

[greenbriar]

25. I am not blaming them

but they let themselves get into a situation that turned out horrible


if they were so innocent and church believing boys, they wouldn't have had strippers there



I happen to think strippers exploit women so I don't think it is right either...


not blaming one side...I am blaming both sides equally

[Kingshakabobo]

34. I hope you are watching 60 minutes

Interviewing the DNA doctor....this was an attempted railroad. i think the DA is screwed

[EvolveOrConvolve]

35. You're not blaming them?

"but they let themselves get into a situation that turned out horrible" (sounds like blame to me)

So it's all their fault that a screwed up stripper lied about them raping her? The blame lies on only ONE side in this mess - with the stripper who lied about the rape. The boys are not saints, but to have the rest of their lives ruined because they hired the wrong psycho stripper is disgusting.

I suppose the girl that drinks too much at a frat party, and gets raped, DESERVES it because she put herself in that situation, and her rapist deserves the same exact amount of blame as her? :sarcasm:

If blame should be passed around equally, maybe they should all be thrown in jail - the DA, the Duke boys and the stripper. Heck, we might as well throw the other stripper in jail too. After all, she let her friend go to the party.

[Totallybushed]

53. You are blaming these men

for being lied about. charged with a serious crime that they did not committ. One that they could have spent 30 years in prison for, unjustly?

I cannot believe you. Suppose, as it will finally come out, that the woman lied. I say suppose because you do not seem to be getting it. What shoud her punishment be? She has committed a serious felony, and maliciously tried to ruin people's lives. Do you think she should get off scot-free? sounds like it.

The criminal is the woman. The victims are the lacrosse players.

[mondo joe]

70. The fuck you're not. The presence of strippers does not indicate that they did anything

criminally wrong.

[pnwmom]

85. Don't you wonder where all this Puritanism is coming from?

Don't any of these people have television sets? The hypocrisy is killing me . . .

[mondo joe]

86. The ugly puritanical streak I've seen on DU the last few weeks makes me think

I ought to take a vacation from GD.

[pnwmom]

88. If they were "church believing boys" they wouldn't have had strippers?

I can't believe I'm reading this on DU.

Maybe you should go to a strip club in the South and take a poll. I bet the vast majority of men there would say they are believers. Hah!

[WorseBeforeBetter]

102. Amen! (n/t)

[Totallybushed]

100. If not being

a church boy were a crime, 50% of DU would be in prison right now.

The justice system isn't supposed to be set up to punish people for something, anything, but to determine if they are guilty or not guilty of the specific crime for which they are charged.

[mainegreen]

24. Oh bullshit. Strippers are not immoral. It's a very old profession. Drinking has been around forever

Don't like it? Then don't become a stripper and don't hire them. Or don't drink. But please, hold your moral outrage to yourself. It's legal and well it should be. Doing legal things should not be viewed upon with suspicion.

[Hippo_Tron]

173. It's the same thing is the christian right judging other peoples' morality

Back in the 1970's college kids could smoke pot and drink all they wanted and nobody gave a shit because there was no mass culture war movement out there trying to judge kids' morality.

It's the same crap with this Miss USA stuff. She's a college kid who drinks, big fucking deal. Although Trump is certainly a despicable human being, Rosie O'Donnell should know a thing or two about what happens when you judge other peoples' lifestyle choices.

[Lex]

29. . . . I think all involved are lying in one way or another.

Or most anyway. Including the 2 strippers.

And what was with the weird email from one of the players there that night?
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke5.html

It's one giant mess.

[greenbriar]

30. true

it is a mess

[pnwmom]

The weird email was NOT from any of the accused students.

You're not implying that because you know someone who sent a sick email, that you should have to go to jail for 3 or 4 decades. Are you?

[Lex]

114. It was from a LAX guy who was there that night so presumably witnessed

whatever happened.

How in the hell you figure I think a sick email from someone means you should have to go to jail for 3 or 4 decades is WAAAAY beyond me. I didn't even come CLOSE to implying that. Odd.


_____________________

[pnwmom]

117. He was a student who took a course that included a discussion

of a movie that the email was related to.

When you brought up the email I didn't know WHAT you were implying. As far as I'm concerned, it's irrelevant. You seem to think it has some significance.

[Catherine Vincent]

32. Strippers should stay away from frat parties.

They're asses and animals.

[Totallybushed]

38. Gee, how liberal.

The same thing could be said of the stripper, if she actually had been raped.

Blame the victim!!

[Lex]

40. "Thank your grandpa for my cotton shirt" they yelled at the black stripper.

This invective was overheard by a neighbor who came outside to see what the commotion was about.

Nasty stuff . . . but if they didn't commit a rape, they shouldn't be charged with one.

If they committed other sexual assaults that night, then I hope it comes to light, but I doubt it will at this point.


______________________

[pnwmom]

93. On the first 60 minutes show a few months ago, the 2nd dancer admitted

to making the comment -- something about the students limp white dicks -- that elicited the racist slur about the cotton shirt. However, that racist slur wasn't made by any of the accused.

I'm glad you agree that they should be charged with rape unless they actually committed one.

[Jacobin]

41. Isn't that kinda like blaming a woman wearing provocative

clothing and walking alone at night for her own rape

[greenbriar]

43. NOOOOOOOOOOO

I guess I can not explain fully

so I give up

[Lex]

47. It's weird they told the escort service they were Duke baseball

players and used names not their own to order up the strippers.

Why'd they do that?

It's a very perplexing case, imho.


_________________________

[Buzz Clik]

58. You ever know many lacrosse players?

I refuse to generalize, but ones I've known tend to be short-fused, a tad violent, and really cliquish. Never liked any of them. But, despite having known about a dozen lacrosse player (and a gazillion other folks), I've never known a rapist.

[NashVegas]

89. No One Ever Knows a Rapist

When said rapist is a part of your tribe, someone you identify with. In those cases, it takes irrefutable physical evidence, or a confession. Otherwise, she was a slut, she was asking for it, she's a liar.

Sometimes, she is indeed a liar. Sometimes. This appears to be one of those cases.

[NashVegas]

91. I Agree It's Perplexing

If they were so innocent, why act so guilty, both before and after?

[Totallybushed]

105. Act guilty?

How do you mean? What did they do that made them seem guilty for you, because all I saw was them protesting their innocence.

[pnwmom]

130. They acted guilty by looking so

white and privileged and Republican. And by having the money to hire good lawyers.

Apparently, we DUers can be as guilty of prejudice, and as subject to the tactics of demagogues, as the freepers.

[Totallybushed]

177. No kidding! n/t

[pnwmom]

128. IF they did that (do you have evidence), it might have been a joke.

Ha, ha, we're the baseball team.

Or maybe they thought their coach would disapprove.

[Totallybushed]

55. You can't expalin at all

It is totally illogical that they are in any way responsible for being lied about. Or for the political situaion in Durham.

[Buzz Clik]

60. You are correct, but it goes way beyond political.

Regardless, there is clearly one really bad person here: Nifong. It would be wise to focus wrath on that incompetent jackass.

[Totallybushed]

90. Nifong, yes.

The man was in a position of responsibility and public trust, which he deliberately, maliciously, and for his own benefit, abused.

The stripper is just a stripper. It's the kind of thing that doesn't surprise one from that kind of person, although it is unexpected and shocking.

Both should have serious, serious jail time. But if I could only choose one, it would be Nifong.

[Buzz Clik]

57. That is precisely what the opening post suggests.

[Buzz Clik]

56. Here's one for you from my family. You judge:

A few years ago, my youngest son (17 at the time) went to a house where a high school drinking party was going on. He drank a beer with a couple pals, then hitched a ride out of there. Later that evening, one of his friends (still at the party) called him on his cell and said she needed a ride home. So, my kid talked one of his pals into driving him over so he could pick her up. There must have been 100 kids at the party now (nearly midnight), and my kid couldn't find his friend. After just a couple of minutes, somebody screams, "Cops!" A group of about ten kids in the back yard take off, and my son follows. As he blasted across a neighbor's yard, a cop pulls a weapon, cocks it, and aims it at his face. He then shouts for my to get on the ground.

My kid was correctly busted for underage consumption (he showed slightly positive on the breath analyzer due to the one beer earlier) and for resisting arrest. But what if the cop had pulled the trigger? My son would be dead for the crime of being really stupid for fleeing the scene. Would be my son's death be justified because "he brought it upon himself for putting himself in a compromising situation"? This is NOT rhetorical -- your answer will be quite telling.

=====================

Yes, folks, those Duke players are hammer headed, they were likely drunk, and they were involved in questionable behavior. But, you don't accuse someone of rape unless they committed rape. Period.

Look at it from the other side with the same flawed logic: Does the stripper's occupation, police record, sexual activity, and poor judgment automatically disqualify her from being raped? Did she "have it coming" because she willingly went into a house filled with 40 drunken men with the single intent of stimulating them sexually? Of course not.

Let's be consistent, shall we?

[pnwmom]

129. Thank you, Buzz Clik. Your account puts things into perspective

very well. I have teenage boys, too, it is all too obvious to me how easy it would be for a kid to get caught up in something like this.

[Catherine Vincent]

59. Did you guys see that picture of the two strippers at the party

performing one of their acts on 60 minutes? Their face was smeared off but one of them was on all fours and crawling underneath the other one as she was standing. You could see the boys sitting in back enjoying the view. It's really unbelievable what these strippers do to perform for these parties. No amount of money is worth it, imo.

[pnwmom]

134. The students looked like they were half asleep, to me.

Did they look to you like a bunch of guys about to enter into a wild rampage?

[Catherine Vincent]

166. I didn't really pay attention to the guys in the background.

I mainly focused on the strippers. Plus it was shown very fast. And I am sure pics wouldn't have been taken during the wild rampage.

[pnwmom]

171. No, but it supposedly occurred right afterwards.

And those students were barely moving in the videotape.

[minkyboodle]

61. My View, Some choice assholes got railroaded

Viewing the prosecutor's actions and the DNA guy, there
is now way to escape the conclusion that a very bad DA
railroaded those kids (very likely for the worst of
political greed). That being said I was watching the 60
minutes segment with the mothers and family and I'm sorry
to say I wasn't very sympathetic to there cries. Like
I said the state shouldn't have gotten involved and in
that way the families were victims but as far as how I
felt about them, I thought they were assholes who may have
raped a girl when the case started, now they are just
assholes who threw a stripper party hiring a poor black
woman in an unbelievable loaded racially town and shouted
racial epithets at the girls and degraded them in ways that
went way above the usual "look at those titties" guy stripper
actions. So honestly I say fuck em; they in no way got what
they deserved but they did get exposed as the elitist probably
racist assholes they were. Rich white boys from NJ have been
doing short time in a poorer black city with that attitude for
years and years (not saying about the entire university but as
someone who has spent time in that area Duke more than any of
the NC schools has that reputation well before the rape case).
Phew what a confusing ramble I guess I could have just said,
"Fuck those blue devils.. go UNC" :smoke: :hide:

[greenbriar]

62. Thank you

thats what I was trying to say

[Pavulon]

77. Have you ever stepped foot

in the triangle, really. chapel hill and durham are a quick drive from each other. Chapel hill is imho less racially diverse than durham. The politics are very different however. If you spent time here you know what I am talking about.

Durham has real problems violent crime (murder) and some shitty slums. This was a race case from the beginning. Nifong got up in front of a black church and promised action. Durham is no more racial than any other city.

They are fucking idiots, but I have been to titty bars, seen strippers, gotten all kind of fucked up underage but that does not make me a felon.

Nifong is about to get a taste of what he dished out, big time. He will be naked in the streets after the civil suits.

[minkyboodle]

99. I have been to the triangle before

I have spent significant time in Raleigh a bit in Chapel Hill.
I confess I'm relying on a friend who has lived in Durham for about
4 years. However, it seems to be a bit, lets say volatile in the
racial division department given what has happened with this case.
However, let me state again Nifong was slimy criminal opportunist and like you
said if he has been left naked in the streets after the civil suits
I say he earned every bit of that. I am no means saying that everyone
one who goes to titty bars, seen strippers or who has been fucked up
under aged is a felon. Hell I've done all those things at one point
(mostly in another southern state, LA). I don't think doing those
things necessarily makes you an asshole. But if you throw a party
in that environment and are who these guys were (you must know what
I'm talking about if you are familiar with transplanted rich Duke people
in Durham) and you add to that the documented racial slurs and general
behavior it doesn't make you a felon, but IMO it does make you a raging
asshole who I will shed no tears over.

[Totallybushed]

106. You should however

be shedding tears over the corruption of We the People's jsutice system.

Do you really think that because someone is an "asshole", in your opinion, they should go to jail for 30 years? What if somebody thought YOU were an asshole? Wouldn't you still fight to stay out of prison?

[pnwmom]

135. You're saying that you are more of a raging a-hole if you're

from the North? How enlightened of you.

"But if you throw a party in that environment and are who these guys were (you must know what
I'm talking about if you are familiar with transplanted rich Duke people
in Durham) and you add to that the documented racial slurs and general
behavior it doesn't make you a felon, but IMO it does make you a raging
asshole who I will shed no tears over."

Once again, the accused students were members of a team. That is what they had in common with the student who made the racial slurs. They were on the same team, and they attended the same dumb team party.

[minkyboodle]

143. well...

as someone from the north who went to college
and spent time afterwords in the South if you throw a party like
that and participate in it rather than take an opportunity to
leave and separate yourself from it (which I'm sure there were many).
Then yes you are a raging asshole in my opinion. And if your team
loyalties prompt you to participate in such an environment and stay
no matter what then that is one of the factors that contributes to
you being an asshole. Just me but when some shouts the N-bomb at
a black stripper in a party that is full of white boys except for
the 2 strippers I make it my business to get the fuck out right then.
I must be some kind of moral pioneer according to the responses in
this thread. :eyes:

[pnwmom]

147. You do know that Seligmann spent most of the time at the party

on the phone to his girlfriend and to a taxi driver, and that he left the party long before the exchange of racial epithets occurred?

Are you sure you would have behaved better than he did?

[minkyboodle]

164. conceeded

If that is true than he really isn't involved (and I have no reason to doubt what you say).
If you are trying to get away from what IMO is an awful situation then you have done the right
thing. I'm just gonna be honest I know some of the details of this case but haven't invested
the time to know every particular (especially when it changes so rapidly). However I do know
that the culture of some schools in the South especially private ones like Duke that attract
many North East students from wealthier backgrounds into many times depressed southern towns
is not worthy of defense (not legally, I'm speaking of sympathy etc). I have seen it in several
southern towns I've lived and I believe I have a good experience of the mindset and culture
that was prominent during that party (through personal experience). It may be worthy of legal
defense but I don't think it is worthy of moral/political defense especially when the issue
is being used by people like Hannity/Limbaugh/Levin as an indictment of a legal system that in
most cases is far more likely to favor people like those indicted at Duke than it is to go
against them.
PS I was gonna reference that horrible email but it seems that wasn't even a kid that was indicted
so I guess I'd say that my reaction to that 60 minutes was more about the culture surrounding
the party than the individual charged players who were part of it, but like you said I concede that
with the way that DA operated anyone could have gotten caught up, although I doubt if no prosecution
came down for any of them that anyone would confronted Ryan McFadyen about that email etc,
more likely hi-fives would have resulted and that's kind of my point.

[pnwmom]

170. And I'll concede that

I'm not impressed by the culture at Duke or other similar schools, either. And my daughter, who was accepted at more competitive schools, never considered applying there, for the same kind of reason.

I just don't think that anyone should be smeared with a broad brush, or even worse, prosecuted, based on some category or other they seem to fit into. And if people like Hannity are more suspicious of the workings of our "justice" system as a result of this case, then so much the better.

[Totallybushed]

182. But the case isn't

about the "culture". It's about whether or not a rape occurred, and did the accused do it. So far, the answer looks like "no" to both. Culture be damned!!

[Pavulon]

179. Yes they are idiots

but do not need to have the full power of the state thrown at them. It is scary and abusive. There were disturbing racial issues there tht go beyond a black stripper, this thread may not be the best place for that discussion. Race drove this case. Not the need for justice.

Yes there lots of relocated northerns in my area. I work with plenty, and married one. Most are nice people. They sold a normal house in NY metro and move here and can afford better housing. Now they moved from lower middle class to upper middle class income by using money smartly.

I have nothing against them. Except when they complain about the new batch of relos that make traffic worse.

Being an asshole does not warrant that level of action by the state.

[Totallybushed]

103. Sounds like

you don't care that tehy didn't rape the girl, and that We the People's court system has been manipulated for the political benefit of a NC sleazeball politican.

[minkyboodle]

107. well thats not how I feel

Sorry if I'm not getting across that the legal
proceedings have been awful and that a corrupt
bastard of a DA used a messed up situation for the
most coarse and crass political benefit. That happened
and it is terrible its just I have a hard time
getting overly sympathetic for the victims and the
families that will continue to bear the "google victim shame"
while they go on to high paying jobs. My main
point is they were assholes before they got railroaded
and they are assholes afterwards and that given all that
goes in today's legal system especially in the southern
states I couldn't give a fuck personally. I don't think
what happened was right but I am motivated by who
was affected by this legal travesty. Sorry I'm just trying
to be honest about it.

[Totallybushed]

111. And you don't

care about justice?? What does our personal sympathy, or distaste, for the accusser or the defendent have to do with it? Nothing. If they were guilty they should fry. If she lied, she should. Nothing else matters. Even assholes are entitled to receive justice.

Or don't you think so?

[minkyboodle]

121. Listen

I never in any any post on this thread said they weren't
entitled to justice. They should not have been charged, in fact
the charges that were brought against them were bullshit. We know
this now and the DA will be nailed against the
wall and no time will be served by the boys. The fact that I think they
are assholes has nothing to do with charges against them. Remember
that after a bunch of bullshit, justice should be served with the
dropping of the charges. I simply said I have a hard time having
sympathy given their behavior in their environment. They may
not all be rich but I tell you they are all more affluent and
have much more ahead of them financially than the strippers they hired that
night to lord over and hurl racial epithets at. Either I'm horribly
wrong (could be, wouldn't be the first time) or I'm taking crazy
pills here at DU (I had that feeling on the wolf thread earlier).
Either way I'm trying to be honest about my reaction to
the 60 minutes piece I never said anything about the justice of
the charges brought against these fine young lads except to say
they were bullshit. Either way I'm going to bed and stand by my
opinion, one that I think quite a few DU'ers may share right or wrong.
Good Night all :)

[Totallybushed]

175. Unfortunately, you're right.

A number of DU'ers seem to share your opinion. Justice will be served when Nifong and the stripper have both served 5-30 years in the state pen.

[pnwmom]

136. Did you know these guys personally? I don't, and that's why

I couldn't comment on their quality of character.

But I do know that Seligmann's teachers and head of school had nothing but praise for him.

[pnwmom]

118. You do realize that they never tried to hire a black stripper, don't you?

That when asked for their preference, they asked for white or hispanic?

So they didn't set out to "degrade" a black woman.

And you do realize that the student who shouted a racial epithet was NOT one of the students accused -- and that the second dancer admitted that the racial slur occurred AFTER she first threw her own slur (something about limp white dicks)?

[minkyboodle]

126. OK

So they didn't want a black woman there in the first place. If
what you say is true (it may be I don't know) I doubt that was because of their sensitivity
to the social/racial implications of the situation if you get my drift.

Quote
And you do realize that the student who shouted a racial epithet was NOT one of the students accused -- and that the second dancer admitted that the racial slur occurred AFTER she first threw her own slur (something about limp white dicks)?

Was that before or after one of these noble young men said something about a broomstick going into one of said strippers? Was it in an environment that the other stripper who has consistently said the accusing stripper was lying about the rape charges described as uncomfortable, hostile and threatening, so much so that they tried to leave only to be talked into staying?
Also for someone who was so sensitive about racial overtones that they didn't even want the dancer there, it didn't take them long to respond with their own slurs coming from a position much more powerful than a stripper trying to break of a little cash. Also they shouted a bunch at the dancers when they were leaving.. assholes plain and simple but for those spending breath pleading their case and condemning me maybe you will get lucky in 4-5 years and when one of these dudes is on some sort of Scaife funded legal think tanks as a PR member he will recognize your purity of ideals and do you a solid..... my point is there is reason Hannity is shouting these guys victimization from the roof tops and as progressives at this time we've got bigger things to worry about than a bunch of assholes who were almost railroaded.

[pnwmom]

137. I disagree. If Nifong gets off with a slap on the wrist, that will

send a message to prosecutors everywhere, and all of us will be that much more subject to the risk of a false prosecution.

[minkyboodle]

148. If he gets off with a slap on the wrist I will be very angry

I don't think its likely at this point but I do agree that if it
happens it will be bullshit and will send the wrong message to prosecutors
everywhere, as if they needed such a message considering
the myriad of prosecutorial misconduct that goes on every day in this country
and gets none of the PR of the Duke case. IMO this DA being nailed to the wall
needs to happen and if it doesn't it will be awful.

[pnwmom]

156. We agree on that then.

If these students, with their means to hire excellent lawyers, can't beat these charges and go on to nail this prosecutor, then prosecutors across the country will get the message that they can do ANYTHING, even withhold exculpatory evidence, without serious consequence.

[marshall]

183. They're all assholes who got railroaded

The dancers who were engaging in dubious employment, the DA who thought he had a magic carpet ride to greater heights of the political arena, and the players who were drinking and partying.

[RB TexLa]

65. How are dancers and alcohol not innocent?

Unless there is a "duke lacrosse" team of 12 year olds, I haven't heard of that you are talking about.

[minkyboodle]

66. correction

Underage drinking I would say is innocent in college
these days. It wasn't but 6-7 years aga when I was in college
doing plenty of under aged drinking.
However, being who the Duke Lacrosse players were
(mainly rich white northerners) in a poor black southern town
hiring who they did, then degrading her racially and
sexually (photo, email, self testimony of this) is
hardly innocent. I've been at a party where someone
hired a stripper and I didn't know about it till I was
there. I stayed, drank and enjoyed the show for the most part.
I would have run from that party like the house was
on fire and anyone who isn't an elitist racist asshole
should have done the same, instead they stayed and
screamed racial epithets and did god knows what else.
That is not innocent IMO and these are not people I
would hold up as mistreated victims like Hannity and
the right do.

[RB TexLa]

81. I really don't know the particulars of the case at Duke

As far as what behavior was exhibited by those at the party, certainly what you describe is nothing I would defend.

But the OP did speak rather generically in regards to dancers and alcohol. I didn't realize that 6-7 or even 60 to 70 years ago anyone would have thought of underage drinking as anything but innocent, in college or high school, but perhaps growing up in Louisiana I was shielded from people who think otherwise in other places.

[pnwmom]

139. You keep repeating your claim that the accused students

hurled racial or threatening epithets. Those students have been identified, and they are NOT any of the accused.

[mondo joe]

68. Fuck that. "Criminal" isn't fuzzy. Drinking isn't criminal, nor are strippers. Rape is.

If they didn't commit a criminal act they didn't bring shit on themselves.

[jus_the_facts]

72. What nobody has mentioned is the MEDIA FRENZY that has fucked this case up from the get go....

....with the media stokin' all sides there can NEVER be any real justice...regardless of the circumstances. :nopity:

[Totallybushed]

108. The media

jumped all over those boys. Now they are having to back off some. But it wasn't the media that f***** up the case. That would be that lying piece of shit, the stripper. And the Honorable Mr. Nifong, of course.

[pnwmom]

73. You're right. Something happened.

Some college students committed the crime of underage drinking. (Ho-hum. To the Puritans among us, this is hardly unusual behavior among college students. Or among DU'ers, for that matter.)

And they hired a stripper to perform at a party -- which is legal, though sleezy and lame. (They probably could have seen a better stripper show just by watching any episode of The Sopranos.)

And some dumb student -- not one of the accused -- made a dumb comment about a broomstick, which gave the dancers a reason to take their money and leave after only a few minutes.

And when one of the dancers made an insulting comment about the students limp white dicks, one of the accuseds' team members made a nasty racial remark back at her.

And when the second dancer couldn't get the first dancer out of her car, she called the police for help. When the accuser was being in-taked to the treatment center for drinking -- which would be in violation of her felony probation -- she decided to answer a nurse's question affirmatively. Yes, she had been raped. And so she was sprung from the alcohol treatment center and sent to the hospital instead.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. As It Stands Right Now, Those Boys Are Completely Innocent.

Unless something has changed that I don't know about, any case against them has all but fallen apart completely and they are in fact innocent. I'm not gonna think them guilty merely because someone I detest as much as Hannity thinks they're innocent.

I'd say after the history of this case it is more than likely that these boys didn't rape her at all, in which case they would in fact be innocent.

[minkyboodle]

101. I agree

I don't want people thinking that just because I think they
are assholes of the highest order I don't think they are innocent
of all legal charges brought against them. Its just watching that
60 minutes sob fest I found myself thinking to myself that there are
a lot more people in this country/world a lot more deserving of sympathy
and outrage. Doesn't mean they aren't innocent and victims
of a DA run amok, just means they are still assholes after all is said
and done IMO.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

104. Would you be singing the same tune...

should something similar happen to your family?

[minkyboodle]

109. my family wouldn't throw that party

and they wouldn't shout racial and sexual
phrases and taunt a stripper that they
hired from a town that they were just doing time in
for 4 years to earn a degree to make tons of money with
in another part of the country. And if they did I
would hope the legal charges would be dropped (if they
were innocent like these Duke guys) just like
I've said here multiple times but I would also think of
them as elitist assholes, like I've also said multiple
times.

[WorseBeforeBetter]

116. I wish you luck then if you or anyone in your family is ever...

falsely accused of anything.

So what if they were to make tons of money elsewhere in the country. Your capacity for sympathy seems diminished by their education/wealth. I believe the player from Long Island (Finnerty) isn't necessarily from great wealth. Does that make him more sympathetic to you?

[pnwmom]

140. But the worst these students did is to have been in the SAME ROOM

or on the same lawn as the team members who made the offensive comments.

Don't tell me you've never been in the same room or the same yard as someone else who did something wrong. If you suddenly found yourself the target of heinous false charges, I'm sure you'd hope people would have some sympathy for you.

[mondo joe]

113. More deserving of sympathy and outrage???

Assholes or not, being charged with a crime for purposes of political exploitation is worth plenty of sympathy and outrage.

[lynne]

115. Prove it -

- because no one else has been able to do so. Until such time as you do prove it, those boys are completely innocent.

[bluewave]

120. Hope the prosecutor is bankrupted by this

And hopefully some good can be salvaged from this. The boys, no doubt Republicans, will hopefully reexamine the fairness of the justice system for all people.

[minkyboodle]

122. I wouldn't hold my breath on that last part.......

[bluewave]

123. It's unfortunate that a "black leader" never stood up for their rights

An act of kindness, even toward those who may hate you, may have swayed their hearts away from the "grandfather/cotton" comment.

[pnwmom]

142. The accused students did NOT make that comment, but there is a hero

in this case, to me.

The African American professor at Duke, Dr. James Colman, who has been speaking out strongly on the students' behalf from the beginning.

[pnwmom]

125. I suppose neither you, nor anyone you love,

has ever been to a party where underage people drank alcohol?

That is the only illegal behavior that has been proven that night. (Hiring a stripper is legal for over 18's.)

Do you think anyone who illegally drinks alcohol deserves what happened to these students?

[devilgrrl]

138. Let me ask everyone something? Who gives a shit about these jock assholes?

:boring:

[Lex]

141. They sure weren't out protesting the surge with me here in Durham

last week, that's for sure.

These kids got no worries as far as that goes.

It'll be someone else's sons if a draft happens. :(


________________________________

[pnwmom]

145. I think they have a concern a little closer to home, don't you?

But this experience under a Democratic politician/prosecutor certainly won't nudge them in the right direction. If they weren't already destined to be lifelong Republicans, I'm sure they are now.

[Lex]

149. The lack of Duke students at all at any protest here has been disappointing.

Very disappointing.

I don't know what these kids are concerned with, but it's definitely not the war or the draft or now the surge.

It was that way loooong before this rape charge and Nifong.


__________________________

[pnwmom]

151. I would be disappointed about that, too.

As I'm disappointed in general with the age ratios of the crowds at the protests I've attended. (Dominated by middle aged women, like myself.)

[minkyboodle]

154. LOL

I have to say I agree 100% with you about that statement,
at least in my experience. Also middle aged women at protests
rock as far as I'm concerned as that age/sex group always show
up no matter what (at least in my experiences). Just wanted to agree with some
one this thread instead arguing like I am currently doing. The
4-5 protests I've been to I've been really bummed out by my
generations showing... just my experience.

[pnwmom]

158. Thanks, minkyboodle.

I can hardly wait till I can go to one of the granny protests. ;)

No, I hope the war ends far before then. But the way things are going . . . .I'll probably still be out there. Horrible thought.

[Totallybushed]

186. I gotta tell ya,

I don't see where the war fits into the discussion at all. That's another subject entirely. And it doesn't matter what their position is on the war, they are entitled to all their rights as American citizens. And they didn't get them.

Nifong has to pay.

[pnwmom]

144. I do. If we're ready to condemn them on the basis of their

skin color, their parents status, or their educational level, that's exactly the same as what the worst of the freepers do.

Prejudice is prejudice.

[mondo joe]

146. I like it better in the original NeoConese: Who gives a fuck about those Muslim Terrorists

in Guantanamo?

[minkyboodle]

150. Cmon....

Oh that's right these guys were held for 3-4 years without trial and
tortured, abused and hidden away from all cameras, legal representation,
and contact with their families and attorneys.
I think you are reaching a bit with this.

[pnwmom]

153. If these students hadn't been able to put up the huge amount of bail,

they might have all been in jail for the last 10 months. And if they didn't have good lawyers, Nifong might have railroaded them into prison for 30 or 40 years.

Given the tactics we've seen in this case, who knows how many people he has already unjustly imprisoned.

[minkyboodle]

159. but they did

and that's a part of what I'm talking about how I don't think they are worthy
of a large amount of emotional investment of outrage or sympathy (given the
situation they involved themselves in coming from where they did). About
the DA I agree that I don't know enough about him personally to know how
many he has unjustly imprisoned. Given what we know he saw this as his
peach of a case and ran with it but yeah, he is a slime ball and who knows
how many unjust cases he ran with against the other end of the social/economic
spectrum. That town is well rid of him and I'm sorry but I've tried to express
my contempt for him as much as the Duke boys accused from the start of this thread.

[mondo joe]

162. What is your contempt for the accused boys based on specifically?

Thank you.

[mondo joe]

155. Is that what it takes to have a problem with it? You're setting a pretty low fucking

bar.

[Lex]

152. Don't people here say "Who gives a fuck about this blonde girl

who's missing?"

I see it all the time.

What about black kids getting railroaded by Prosecutors? I suspect we never hear about those.


Injustice is bad whenever it exists, not just with a certain select few.

______________________

[minkyboodle]

157. thats what I'm trying to hit on

But I give up as I'm being currently being killed about this
by DU posters who obviously feel very strongly about people whom
I consider not really worth the sympathy or use of the online bully
pulpit.

[devilgrrl]

160. I knew this case was hot gas from the moment go...

made for great media coverage though, didn't it? Stippers, booze, sex...

Furthermore, I have never made light of missing blondes, murder victims or otherwise, please don't lump me in with those who have.

[pnwmom]

161. But that's the whole point. Prosecutors like Nifong are an even

greater threat to poor black kids without the means to fight him. If Nifong gets his due -- and other prosecutors, the proper message -- then future defendants of any race or background will be better off. No one should be prosecuted by someone who uses Nifong's tactics.

[mondo joe]

163. I'm not ready to limit my problem with injustice based on skin color.

If it's bad whenever it exists, and that is so, then it's bad here.

[Totallybushed]

184. Me, for one.

But it's not about them. It's about the corruption of the judicial system. And as an aggravating (to me) circumstance, it wasn't a Repuke who did it, but a Democrat, of whom I would have expected better.

[geek tragedy]

190. Who DOESN'T care about abuses of authority

and violations of civil rights?

[PaddyBlueEyes]

167. BULLSHIT

These are 18 to 22 year old college guys, partying and hiring exotic dancers is part of their culture. In contrast, if a woman wears a provocative outfit, does that mean she "asked for it". Nifong had no case from the beginning, and used these dopes for political purposes. He should be disbarred.....

[Beelzebud]

185. For the life of me I can't figure out why this case is a Left vs. Right issue.

Who really gives a shit

[geek tragedy]

189. "She shouldn't have been a stripper." "She shouldn't

have gone up to his room alone with him." "She shouldn't have gone into a bar dressed like that."

Blaming the victim flat-out sucks.

[Moderator]

191. locking......

at the author's request.