Where does Bush get off blaming Iraq on Iraq?

[MikeNY]

The President claimed on 60 Minutes that people in America weren't sure if the Iraqi's were greatful for all that we have done for their country. Exactly what have we done to their country that they should be greatful for? Our invasion and occupation of Iraq has resulted in an estimated 50,000 civilian deaths in Iraq. (http://www.iraqbodycount.org/)

While we are not directly responsible for all civilian deaths, we are responsible for the chaos, anarchy, and events that have led up to them as a result of the invasion and occupation. Iraq has been turned into a hell-hole. What should they be grateful for? We deposed their existing government because they supposedly had weapons they never had and called this bringing democracy to said nation.

They clearly do not have the infrastructure or cultural development to support a modern democracy -- this was clear from before the war started for most people that have a background in the history of the Middle East.

If there are "killers" in Iraq that want to destroy America, I would estimate that the vast majority of them have taken up this ideology due to our invasion. We are in deep shit and its all thanks to this horrible administration and the GOP's politics of mass destruction.

The Democrats need to take further steps to prevent this renegade White House from doing any more damage to the United States. If Bush continues to move towards a strike on Iran they should be prepared to begin impeachment proceedings.

[NNN0LHI]

1. The normal defense in a rape case is to blame the person who was raped

Kind of sick, isn't it?

Don

[fooj]

2. Welcome to DU.

You get no argument from me.

[madeline_con]

3. "They clearly do not have the infrastructure

or cultural development to support a modern democracy ..."

Could you explain what infrastructural elements and cultural shortcomings prevented DUH-bya's democracy from taking hold?

[fooj]

4. Infrastructure? You DESTROYED it, asshole.

Cultural Development?

He sickens me.

[MikeNY]

6. I was hoping you would ask that question

Here is my take... I don't think we can even comprehend how many decades, or possibly even centuries it would take to make this western imposed democracy work in Iraq. It can not succeed. At least one Roman emperor died on the battlefield in what is now modern day Iraq, trying to impose jurisdiction over these lands. We need to face the reality that the human death toll it would take to make it work is not even worth what it will do to the United States... we do not even have the manpower to enforce this imperialistic vision. But remember, Bush isn't even trying to get a western democracy in Iraq anymore - now he's aiming for an Iraq that can police its own borders?? This is tantamount to failure in my eyes - the entire war has been an illegal and unethical failure.

It took the western world quite a few centuries and quite a few religious reforms for our style of democracy / republicanism to even be possible. Without the Protestant reformation or the Renaissance there would never be anything close to what we have now in the west. While we were having these reforms, the Muslims in the Middle East were busy holding off western invaders from conquering their lands. They never had these reforms and were forced to be even more religiously conservative due to the western Crusades on these lands. History has shown that most Muslims in the region DO NOT WANT a secular form of government. They want a government that enforces and upholds Muslim law and Muslim religious beliefs.

How can this miscalculation have been made by this White House? Because the neo-conservatives in DC were too busy, following 9/11, thinking about how we could use this attack to our strategic advantage than comprehending or understanding the complex history of the region. We are so fucked!

(please excuse my gramatical errors - this was typed hastefully)

Added: Also I do not think there is anything wrong with Muslims in the Middle East wanting to live the way they want as long as it does not endanger human life etc. But we have to face the fact that the world IS a nasty place, and there is A LOT of injustice that goes on in the Middle East. How can we ever try to stop all of it? The most we can do is uphold international law (i.e. by not illegally invading a nation before weapon inspection reports come back to the United Nations or fabricating intelligence). The Bush administration is clearly not as altruistic in its motives as it presents itself. Who knows what wheeling and dealing has been going on behind the scenes as far as these no-bid contracts, etc. As far as I'm concerned, there is no reason to trust this administration or any of these propaganda pieces they are pursuing on shows like "60 Minutes".

[madeline_con]

7. So, you did say they're not "civilized" enough to want to vote.

That's what I thought you said. Thanks for clarifying.

[MikeNY]

8. You are misinterpeting what I said

I think that their culture, society and way of life is different than ours and has developed differently than ours over the course of centuries and that we can not expect this form of government to work there. This does not mean their way of life is wrong but you must admit these differences and if you don't you are living with blinders on. Please do not misinterpet my comments as an attack on their way of life because this is not the case. But I do think there is a certain amount of modern industry, technology, and sophistication that is required to reach the level of "western democracy" we expect them to just run up and accept. We are trying to erase 10,000 years of unique history and cultural differences not only between the west and the Iraqi's but their own ethnic differences in that country -- not gonna happen.

[madeline_con]

9. "... there is a certain amount of modern industry,

technology, and sophistication that is required to reach the level of "western democracy" "


You do realize, Middle Easterners drive western vehicles to malls and talk on cell phones all day, right? Iraq's rubble is not indicative of the way all Arabs live.

Edited to add: It is not a cultural deficit or lack of technology that keeps the region in conflict. It is extremism on all sides. Every successful government in the Middle East has to control the extremist element within their borders with an iron hand. Our own government is now being run into the ground by a psychopath who claims to have found Jesus in the bowl of a coke spoon and is spreading his twisted idea of freedom wherever he can do so at gunpoint.

Please do not confuse what's been presented to Iraq with democracy.

[MikeNY]

10. RE: "... there is a certain amount of modern industry,

We placed sanctions on them for years which resulted in untold dead and degredation of their infrastructure. I never said the entire Middle East was like Iraq. But in Iraq's current state, or even its state leading up to the war (as I said in the previous post) it could not sustain the type of democracy we are expecting them to have there. The only thing I see the White House doing right now is setting up a mega-embassy there that can exert control over the oil production in that country through political puppeteering as well as bolstering Iraq's military to put down the resistance there and prevent a pro-Iranian government from taking over. Now we are going to go back to the same thing we were doing in the 80's over there just 10x worse and 10x more involved. The GOP has its dirty hands in every aspect of the Middle East. Face it, the whole idea of "democracy" in Iraq was just an excuse to remove Hussein and gain strategic control over the country. I am tired of hearing about how we are providing some service to Iraq by bombing the shit out of them and occupying their country for years on end.

[Hissyspit]

5. He gets off at Hypocriteville. n/t