Reagan's popularity is our own damned fault, & what it means for our future.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

A recent Zogby poll claims that the majority of people want someone like a Reagan to fix the many problems created by Bush&Co.
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1232
Ok, so 850 people is a small sample, but it is still telling in a scary sense, that people seem to like disengaged, uneducated, semi-literate people in charge. Even though most people recognize that our current White House lease holder is probably the most disengaged, the most certain (in absence of fact and logic) and the most disastrous, they continue to cling to the false idea that Reagan was somehow great.

The great communicator. bah.

By that shameful standard, that means that Katie Curic is a great journalist. not.

Not too long ago, after Reagan disappeared into a pile of chopped wood, I started hearing from my conservative friends that Reagan was the greatest president ever. There was even a drive to carve his image on Mount Rushmore. Highways, federal buildings, and more were named after him. And we let it happen.

It is understandable, in a way. Most of us realized that he was a poor president, but after the fact, and given his disease process, and the fact that his wife was still alive, we generally withheld comment. It seems unseemly and rude to pile on, to tell the truth, to argue a stupid fact, and to point out how pathetic he was. It is simply impolite to say that he was probably senile the last 6 years of his presidency. And because we are moderates, liberals and independent thinkers, we try not to get down to a gutter level of conversation.

So it was that we held our tongues. We did not comment, we did not correct, we did not point out painful, horrific truths, and look where it got us.

Bush
Cheney
Rumsfeld
Abrams
Wolfowitz
Addington
Rice
and many, many, many more got their start under reagan. Had we pursued Iran Contra, had we pursued other impeachable offenses way back when, and had we continued to point out just how corrupt many of these very same players were, Bush 1 would not have been elected and Bush 2 would be digging more empty holes in texas with bin laden money.

But we fucked up. We decided to be polite. We dropped the ball, and that damned vampire crept out of his crypt and grew in strength until they could steal the presidency.

What does that mean for the future?
Assuming we survive 2 more years, it means that we have to plant that stake, deep into their hearts (if we can find those minute things). We cannot allow this beast of neoconmanism or PNAC or the Christian Coalition or any of their future lives to become active again. And if they try, we use all of our efforts to shoot that beast before it gains the slightest bit of control.

We must maintain eternal vigilance against a repeat (the third or fourth one) of this group of evil, anti-American despot-wannabees. We must report, expose and attack any one of these critters should they seek higher office ever again. We need to contact MSM and chide them for even giving them the time of day, much less free air time to spew their filth. And, we need to write, publish, expose and rationally explain why they and their kind pose such a danger to the USA , if not the world.

[cassiepriam]

1. People want another Reagan? Someone with a dementia and handlers?

I think we already have someone like that.

[Ron Green]

8. They don't think about the dementia and handlers, they think about the

larger-than-life movie actor image, the "strong daddy" posture of someone who will take care of them while telling them the lies they want to hear: It's all right to trash the planet, poor people have made a decision to be poor, and the free market will make everything work better.

[cassiepriam]

35. In other words they don't think about the reality.

[indepat]

37. Reagan's true legacy is the monstrous federal debt this nation and future

generations will be forever saddled with which will have weakened this nation exponentially in every respect.

[frazzledmom]

2. Uh... speak for yourself

"So it was that we held our tongues. We did not comment, we did not correct, we did not point out painful, horrific truths, and look where it got us."

Somehow I don't think DU is the place to say we were "polite" to Reagan. I can't seem to recall one single post on DU that didn't slam Reagan for what he was.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. but the die was cast already.

DU did not exist when the worst occurred, in terms of pro-reaganautics navigating the airways and printed op/ed word. Too little, too late, and remember, once your mind was made up about a historical fact, it is exceedingly difficult to change it.

[frazzledmom]

11. True, but do you really think the people who come here

supported Reagan in any way? I loved your thread about the death of America and revolution but I can't agree that "we" cut Reagan any slack. "We" just didn't have the outlets to do anything like we do now. Not that we are really getting anything done here as evidenced by the 60 minutes interview, but at least our voices are getting louder... :toast:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

14. I sit corrected, with bowed head.

and may our voices join in key, and fuck those bastards before they destroy our country.

[frazzledmom]

19. LOL.. not corrected, Adjusted.. When you write "we" in a post

people take it personally. I agree that most of America let him get away with it, but DU is not typical of America, remember we are the wacked out loony left, and damn proud of it!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

9. Hey, I'll give him this much --

he was a much better actor than he was a president.

Take that as you will...

[Lost4words]

10. welcome to DU frazzledmom! :-)

:hi:

He had the media behind him just like dimson. We tried, we really did.

[frazzledmom]

12. Thanks! Yeah we did try, that's what I was trying to say

maybe I took the OP wrong but he seemed to be saying we just sat around being polite... I actually met Reagan once and I was far from polite to that piece of crap...

[blm]

55. I think he means the Dems in general who gave Reagan and Bush1 the passes they

didn't deserve and that came back to bite us all in the ass and set this country WAAY back.

http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/111106.html

[WHEN CRABS ROAR]

3. An actor who played his best role.

[devilgrrl]

4. Reagan's MY fault?

What is with this finger pointing bullshit that's been going on here the past few days?

It's our fault * is in office.
It's our fault the US is in Iraq.
It's our fault blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa blaa

:eyes:


Sorry, it's not my fault. Now leave me alone.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

7. sorry. it was a collective "us" - in an attempt to show what can happen

if we don't kill this snake now and forever. It was not an attack on you, per se.

[Esra Star]

6. Outside the US Reagan was, and always will be, a joke.

The only question is will Bush be a bigger dolt.
He is giving it a really good shot.
The Iran thing has got me nervous.

[Nederland]

13. Had we pursued Iran Contra?

WTF? Iran Contra was pursued by a Democratically controlled Congress who spent 36+ million on the investigations. The problems is, there is a vast difference between what a partisan person like you "knows" and what constitutes proof in a court of law. Furthermore, you need to get your story straight. Do you believe that Reagan was senile for the last 6 years of his presidency, or do you believe that he was the mastermind behind Iran-Contra? When you claim both in the space of a couple paragraphs you start to look simply like a partisan pol looking to nail someone from the other party, which is probably what you are.

Was Reagan a great president? Probably not, but the truth is that you and I can't possibly judge. The truth is no one will know that answer for another 50 years till we can get some distance from the subject...

[BeFree]

21. Probably not?

Reagan almost destroyed this country, I know because I saw it with my own eyes. Don't tell anyone they can't judge reagan, that's practically insane to tell someone that!

Reagan got off the hook because he sat in a witness chair and said he "didn't recall" about 50 times. Now if he was that far gone, what the hell was he doing as president?

Of course he masterminded nothing, but the people he hired to work for him did and he didn't do a damn thing to stop them from running guns to Nicaragua and selling missiles to Iran.

Reagan should have been hung from on high, and I am generally opposed to the death penalty.

"Was Reagan a great president? Probably not." How incredible can any one person be? Methinks you are showing us the limit.

[Nederland]

24. Almost destroyed this country?

Hmmmmm. By was measure? The economy? The crime rate? Average life expectancies of Americans? I'm curious what objective measure you would use to make that claim because to be honest, you sound a little like Rush Limbaugh when he talks about Bill Clinton.

Me thinks you have a fairly low estimation of just how strong this country is if it could be "almost destroyed" by a single lousy President. The truth is that the system is set up so that no one person can "destroy" the country, even if they are President. If it was, we would be in serious trouble right now because Bush is far far worse than Reagan ever was...

[BeFree]

26. You continue with

"The truth is that the system is set up so that no one person can "destroy" the country, even if they are President. If it was, we would be in serious trouble right now...."

Dude, we are in serious trouble. Right Now.

And it's because reagan opened the floodgates of lying government employees. Nixon was bad and so we built a dam, but reagan opened the gates allowing bushco to take hold. I thought everyone knew this?

Reagan's administration broke the federal bank, allowed the rest of the banks to steal vast sums, and besides running guns and missiles, set the stage for bushco to take over. And here we are, in serious trouble.

Please, don't tell me you think reagan was good for America, that would push the limit.

[Nederland]

42. Interesting

...how you didn't answer the question.

By what measure did Reagan "almost destroy" the country?

[BeFree]

43. Haha... your funny

Not.

Go back and read my posts and try some history. Then maybe your vision of the reagan era will change. But maybe not.

[Nederland]

53. Response

The problem with your post is that it is a list of opinions, not objective, measurable facts. You say that "Reagan opened the floodgates of lying government employees". Really? Do you have a study that counted the number of "lying employees" before Reagan and then counted the number of "lying employees" after Reagan and showed a marked increase? I'm guessing not. You say that Reagan "broke the federal bank". Really? I was unaware that the federal bank (I'm not sure if you actually mean the Federal Reserve or the US Treasury, your language is rather imprecise) got "broken". What was the date on that? Or perhaps you are referring to the Savings and Loan crisis, brought on by legislation passed by a Democratically controlled House?

I'm sorry, but when I hear these "Reagan was the Devil" rants I'm just reminded too much of how the far right reacts to Clinton. The parallels are striking actually. The reality is that the far left hates Reagan for the exact same reason the far right hates Clinton: both were very popular with the average American.

[trekbiker]

46. he set the stage for the eventual destruction or our empire..

Iran Contra
tax policy favoring the wealthy against the middleclass
anti-union policy (air traffic controllers) Unions are in real trouble in USA now
James Watt and the environmental nightmare
"trickle down" economics (rearing its ugly head again under BUsh 2)
end of the Fairness doctrine (beginning of the end of journalism in MSM) thank god for the internet
S&L scandal
national debt from 1776 to 1979 about 800 billion
by 1992 national debt around 3 trillion

"The national debt peaked at 120% of GDP in 1946 due to the war effort, but Roosevelt, Truman, Ike, Kennedy, LBJ, Nixon, and Carter all did their part to bring the national debt back to pre-war levels. By the beginning of 1981, the national debt had fallen to 32.5% of GDP. Then, Reagan took office and the national debt took off. It rose non-stop for 12 years to 66.3% at the end of Bush's term, erasing 25 years of progress in paying down the national debt"

I do believe Raygun was senile to the point of incompetence his last 2-3 years
but you're right, Bush junior is an even greater monster

[noonwitch]

48. I wouldn't go that far

Reagan was a man who served as president. Our nation survived his administration, some for better and some for worse. I did not like most of his policies, but he is dead and he died in a terrible way.

I think Iran/Contra was a very bad thing. It is a good example of short-sighted policy, though. Reagan and his people thought that funding the contras would help fight communism. They further thought that arming Iran and Iraq in their war against each other was also a good thing for this country, and for a few years, it might have been.

It is really easy to judge the mistakes of cold warriors with hindsight on our side. From our perspective, the USSR was already dying when Reagan took office. He didn't see it that way, and decided to up the ante and use a military buildup to force them to keep up, which they really couldn't do. And, yes, the things we did at the end of the cold war helped create the terrorism that we are seeing now (like training bin Laden to fight the soviets). No one could see that coming 25 years ago, however.

[trekbiker]

51. I dissagree.

many of us during the 1980's could see the military buildup was an unnecessary waste and that the Soviet Union was collapsing from within. No hindsight required. Also his trickle down economics could be seen at that time as a failure about to happen. And no hindsight was required to see the effect of his massive tax cuts on our national debt situation. We did not recognize the rise of Bin Laden and Al qaida but the memory of the quagmire of Vietnam and the situation in Afgahnistan for the USSR could be clearly viewed during that time.

Same thing with Bush 2. Most of us couldnt believe he was about to make the mistake of invading Iraq back in 2002/2003. No hindsight needed there either. same for his tax cuts, massive spending, environmental insanity.

May Reagan rot in Hell

[followthemoney]

27. Another DU defender of Reagan. Don't pretend to suspend judgement.

You slow deciders will be will be eaten alive by the decider-in-chief every time. Maybe that is your intention. You are probably part of the crowd that believed Bush wouldn't lie about something as serious as WMD.

Be careful. You have bad instincts.

[RaleighNCDUer]

28. Since my father died of Alzheimers I know a bit about it -

you don't go from competence to blithering idiot overnight. (It can be argued that Ronnie Rayguns was a blithering idiot long before he suffered from Alzheimers, however.) He certainly could have been suffering from the disease from early in his reign, and still been relatively functional when he left office. What we might have seen was forgetfulness (check), inattention (check), inappropirate humor (check), disrupted or prolonged sleep patterns (check), irrational statements (check), belligerence (check)...need I go on?

Great president? For foisting such nonsense as Star Wars and trick-down economics on us? For claiming credit for destroying an evil empire that had been in collapse for thirty years? Maybe for funding and empowering oppressive right wing dictatorships across the world, and arming rebels to fight left wing governments. Probably not great?

How about the worst, most criminal (more convictions from his administration than from any previous US administration), most dangerous and misguided government we have had, prior to this one. But the Iran/Contra thing was Poppy Bush's baby from the first, so Raygun's competence doesn't really figure into it anyway.

[omega minimo]

29. If you were there, you'd know we CAN possibly judge........

"The problems is, there is a vast difference between what a partisan person like you "knows" and what constitutes proof in a court of law. "

Reagan was not impeached because he was "too popular" -- not because the law wasn't broken.

"Do you believe that Reagan was senile for the last 6 years of his presidency"

He appeared senile from the start of his presidency.......

"...or do you believe that he was the mastermind behind Iran-Contra?"

Your strawman ("mastermind"? Is Dubya the "mastermind" of the current debacle?) pretends to present some inconsistency there.

"Was Reagan a great president? Probably not"

:wtf: "Probably"? Guess you weren't there........

"but the truth is that you and I can't possibly judge."

Definitely not there.

"The truth is no one will know that answer for another 50 years till we can get some distance from the subject..."

ROARING BULLSHIT!


Actually it's you who "in the space of a couple paragraphs you start to look simply like a partisan pol looking to nail someone from the other party, which is probably what you are."


edit: per your request for solid info on the effects of 26 years of Reaganism:
http://www.thomhartmann.com

[EFerrari]

30. Um, Reagan got a lot of brown people killed.

And you don't know if he was a "great president"? :wow:

[B Calm]

36. Would you say I'm partisan because Raygun declared war on the working

class?

[MoseyWalker]

15. Reagan was an actor

who took on many parts over his long careers.

I believe he tried to fight the evil-er ones, but had no possibility of winning. At least the crazy bastards were held at bay for a decade or so.

[sandnsea]

16. You're right

Good post. I don't know if it was US specifically, as I don't personally know any Reagan worshippers and I doubt any other DUers know many. But it somehow became conventional wisdom and there certainly was no great effort to call bullshit, just like there was no great effort to correct the bullshit attacks on Carter. We have a moment in time right here, to push back against ALL Republicanism because none of it works. And the people in office now started under Ford, who was appointed by Nixon who was the protege of Prescott Bush.

[BeFree]

17. So, your a newbie, eh?

'Cause when reagan died we had us a real nice roast here.

But what you say is the truth. We must get down and dirty with these crooks, 'cause that's all they understand.

We have been backed into a corner and we need to come out swinging.

[pnwmom]

18. That's not at all what the poll says. More chose a DEMOCRAT.

The poll included 2 Democrats from the 20th century, FDR and Kennedy; and only one Republican, Reagan.

The poll has a 3.4% margin of error, which means that Reagan, at 28%, and FDR, at 26%, were tied (because they were within the margin). John Kennedy drew 21%.

When you combine the scores of FDR and Kennedy, the result is that 47% chose a 20th century Democrat. Only 28% chose a Republican.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

20. good point. but, the idea that raygun would be

on top, well, that explains why 28% continue to support the burning shrub.

[pnwmom]

23. Yes, those 28% are the hardcore Repubs.

But again, Reagan's not even on top. Statistically, he's in a dead heat with FDR.

[Hippo_Tron]

25. Very good point, I put Raygun and FDR in a runoff and I'd say FDR in a landslide

Kennedy would probably easily win too.

[MistressOverdone]

22. Reagan was a skilled actor

and had years of Hollywood behind him. He was whatever we wanted him to be. He had all the matinee idol characteristics: big, handsome (in his younger days), rugged, yada, yada.

I think he's a great reason NOT to vote for actors who turn into politicians. You don't know what you are getting.

[EFerrari]

31. Yeah, big, handsome and the snake that sold out the Screen Actors Guild

Oh, he was a charmer, that one. lol

[MistressOverdone]

38. Yes, but you had to be in the industry

to really have a grip on that. I think we entered a whole new phase of politics with Reagan, and now we're stuck with it. The media is the message.

[EFerrari]

40. It's true. FDR and JFK still operated in a world where words and ideas

mattered a good deal. Raygun was the first totally produced for primetime president, imo.

[omega minimo]

32. Those who "withheld comment" were brainwashed, not polite

[DarkTirade]

33. I really don't get that line of thinking though...

I mean... what exactly did Reagan DO? Anything? Can anyone name ONE good thing he did?

[ChairmanAgnostic]

41. chopped wood? played with his radio feed? solved AIDS?

No, I can't think of anything.

[LeftishBrit]

34. He was a friend of Maggie Thatcher, which already says plenty!

Even apart from the big scandals, he was VERY right-wing; pursued harsh economic policies that totally screwed the poor, and caused lots of insecurity to the middle class; fucked up public services; took tax money that could have been used to help his own country and used to build up more and more nukes; and, even more than most Republican presidents, never saw a nasty South American dictator whom he didn't like; etc. Pretty much like Maggie, in short; though Maggie probably had a higher IQ.

And I strongly suspect that he did have the beginnings of Alzheimers when he was president. On hindsight, all his verbal mistakes and messing up his speeches ("third world war" for "third world" was perhaps the most startling!) should have given some clues. He had been an actor after all, and while actors don't need to be brilliant in all respects, they need a good verbal memory. These mistakes should have warned of a mental decline in his case.

There was an interesting chapter in Oliver Sacks' "The Man Who Mistook his Wife for a Hat" about how patients with certain forms of brain damage seemed less fooled than 'normals' by Ronnie's charisma and 'communication' skills. The aphasic patients who couldn't understand his words, but could observe his exaggerated expressions and gestures, roared with laughter at his speech on television. Another patient, who had damage to another area of the brain and could understand language but couldn't interpret tones of voice, said that he was not 'cogent' and must be either brain-damaged or lying (she was quite perceptive - he was probably both).

I am sure that his initially subtle cognitive problems helped to make him a puppet of some very evil people. A partial excuse perhaps; but it is clear that his instincts were bad from the beginning; as I understand, he was a very right-wing California governor earlier on.

I don't know why Ronnie is so worshipped in some quarters - he isn't in the UK. I assume it's a combination of his charming reassuring personality on the surface, and some people falsely giving him the entire credit for the fall of the Soviet Union (not that it was replaced by perfect democracy and rule of law).

[NewJeffCT]

39. They released Reagan's letters/writings a few years back

They revealed him not to be this doddering old man who let his subordinates run wild - they revealed him to be much more hands on than his image conveyed.

If that is really the case, it was a huge mistake for the Democrats in Congress not to pursue impeachment. I think I remember Lawrence Walsh saying something to the effect of it being easy to prove impeachable offenses, but they felt sorry for Reagan in his mental state, so backed off... Tip O'Neill said they didn't pursue it because he thought it would hurt the country so soon after Watergate.

Unfortunately, the decisions of Walsh and O'Neill have hurt the country over the long haul. It would have meant no Bush I or II, and we likely would have returned to fiscal responsibilty in 1989 instead of 1993.

[Swamp Rat]

44. Not me!

I have ALWAYS disliked the SOB!

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

45. America has now achieved the distinction of electing 2 drooling idiots to the presidency.

Or, as H.L. Mencken put it:

“As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.” - H.L. Mencken

[Lydia Leftcoast]

47. The corporate press gave Reagan a free pass on his idiocies and

the DLC went right along with most of his programs, especially his foreign military adventures.

[specimenfred1984]

49. Repukes need to be jailed and exposed

If not, they come back like Scumsfeld and Chumley did from the Nixon era. Raygun wasn't all that popular either according to the polls, his popularity is a myth.

G. Ford wasn't a "healer" either but that didn't stop the M$M whores from spewing that lie for a solid week.

[Freddie Stubbs]

50. Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld did not get their statt under Reagan

[Zhade]

52. Holy fuck. How can USAmericans be THAT historically blind?

Do they forget how very, very many innocent people died under Reagan's policies, here and especially abroad?

[SammyWinstonJack]

54. Another Raygun?

:banghead: :argh: Morans!