When Revolution is the Only Answer...

[k8conant]

"Prudence, indeed, will dictate that governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient causes; and, accordingly, all experience shown that mankind are more disposed to suffer while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But, when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object, evinces a design to reduce under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security." --Thomas Jefferson: Declaration of Independence, 1776. ME 1:29, Papers 1:429

[havocmom]

1. Yes, quoting the eloquent Mr. Jefferson is a good reminder

But be sure and wave to Agent Mike and tell him, 'It's just a historical curiosity, not a suggestion made in public'.

:hi: Hi Agent Mike.

edited for typo

[k8conant]

3. Who is Agent Mike?

BTW, hi, agent Mike! :hi:

[Cleita]

5. He's our generic CIA or FBI or DHS lurker.

I can't go into the details of his genesis (a long story and often boring too)however this is his name.

[mmonk]

9. Funny. I've heard Barbara Olshansky from CCR use the term

Agent Mike when she said they went looking for people who disappeared after 9/11. The relatives of people that were taken said someone calling themself Agent Mike was making arrests.

[havocmom]

11. And we remind each other to say Hi to Agent Mike

as a gentle nudge and reminder that this is a very PUBLIC street corner, not the cozy nook for a computer and a small room of friends ;)

Hey, Agent Mike, I made cake. Want some?

[k8conant]

12. So quoting Thomas Jefferson is supposedly seditious??

Let me lie down and let Bush have his way again then. :wtf:

[tavalon]

22. Sadly

It is not whether it is seditious that is the question, it is whether it is perceived to be seditious. We are cautiously pussyfooting around this because we must. Surely you don't believe that we really have the kind of freedom that we pretend to, do you?

[tavalon]

19. Best description of him yet

and as someone pointed out later down the thread, a reminder that we aren't as insulated as we would like to believe.

[lostnotforgotten]

23. Your Not Suggesting That Agent Mike Has Forgotten His Own History

If it was good enough for Jefferson, then it's good enough for me.

Viva La Revolution!

[havocmom]

25. I am not forgetting that Jefferson had more freedom and less surveillance

than we have today, and most particularly on PUBLIC internet forums.

;) Some tend to forget, as they sit typing in the privacy of their homes, that the internets are a VERY public place. And since we have a DOJ headed by a man with absolutely no intention of maintaining even a perception of serving to protect the US Consititution... Throw in all the rights the last, GOP ruled, Congress gave up to the executive branch, and yeah, we do not have the liberty to say what we believe, even if a Founding Father said it first.

That Patriot Act gave them a lot of room to decide what is and isn't punishable by locking you away with no care to your rights. Until that abomination is repealed and Habeas Corpus restored, be mindful that speaking truth can (and likely WILL for some people) be grounds to be 'disappeared' in today's America.

Think a thing, but be damned careful where you speak a thing. And remember the written word can hang you. THAT is reality in America today.

We need to remain outside secret prisons to affect corrections in the course of the ship of state. ;)

[starroute]

26. Things weren't all that secure in Jefferson's day, either

And not just in 1776, but also in the period of the Alien and Sedition acts, when the conservatives were getting their panties in a bunch over the French Revolution:

http://www.csulb.edu/%7Ecrsmith/alien.htm

Once the rhetorical context was established, the Federalists moved to quash the free speech of immigrants and the sedition of the press by proposing alien and sedition legislation. During the debates, Democratic-Republicans were fair game. For example, Federalist Jonathan Dayton rose to rebut a speech by Albert Gallatin, a Democratic-Republican leader who had originally come to the United States from Switzerland. Dayton himself was known to be a moderate Federalist, so his insinuations concerning Gallatin's foreign origin and his presumed friendliness to European radicalism were all the more credible. . . .

When Congressman Livingston objected that the new laws required "no indictment; no jury; no trial . . . no statement of accusation," he was answered with the claim that the insidiousness of French intrigue made these objections irrelevant. Federalist Congressman Otis claimed the laws were necessary because the French had pushed their intrigues into some of the first offices of government. The allusion to Jefferson's State Department was unmistakable. . . .

These early rhetorical successes gave the Hamiltonians the ability to initiate legislation. By 1798 the Federalists had already raised a large standing army and gained control of it by pushing Hamilton to the position of acting commander. Adams approved a new Department of the Navy including the revived Marines Corps. He ordered merchant ships to be armed; eventually fourteen American war ships were commissioned and 200 other vessels took out letters of marque for reprisals against the French. . . . By the end of 1798, they had passed over 20 laws which, among other items, abrogated all treaties with France, expanded the army, armed sea vessels, and authorized attacks on French vessels on sight. . . .

The Federalists' actions and proposals were transparently unconstitutional; their agenda comprised an extreme threat to personal freedoms. Congressman Robert Harper of South Carolina, then justified a restriction on freedom in the face of internal subversion. . . . Perhaps the most serious action was the arrest of Congressman Matthew Lyon of Kentucky in October, 1798, under the provisions of the Sedition Act. He became the first member of Congress convicted of a crime while in office. In the ensuing election, he was re-elected from his jail cell, and when Federalist tried to vote to expel him from the House, the Democratic-Republicans were successful in blocking the move.

[havocmom]

27. Intelligence gathering and surveillance not as good back then

They have tools now which put all public speech at risk of being used against us and laws in place which put us in peril of not having the rights we think we have.

I am aware of the history and dangers faced in the past. It is the tools of today which make us more vulnerable.

[Joe for Clark]

2. That is a good and true quote.

Sure didn't take into account the internet though - right??

It is an interesting time to be alive - people from california can talk to people from south carolina et al and talk, reasonably- you know??

We don't need revolution - just reason.

It is coming.

Joe

[Voltaire]

4. I'll take Revolution myself

This country ain't smart enough to reason

[Joe for Clark]

7. I guess we disagree on the IQ of the country.

I'll just say - I think we are pretty damn smart- a little slow, but smart in the end.

That is why we are the United States - You know we invented "run out on a rail" type politics.

Joe

[liberal renegade]

16. and just a few to many lazy fucks

who don't wanna be bothered while glued to the idiot box, watching American Idols and Americas top model.

[tavalon]

20. That is a terrible and nasty thing, isn't it?

I'm so glad I don't choose to have such a nasty creation in my home. It's sad, though, because it could have been something amazing, much as the internet is. Ah, but at least we have the internet, eh?

[lostnotforgotten]

24. TV Free For 5 Years Now - The Liberation Is Enlightening

eom

[liberaltrucker]

6. Great minds think alike!

I was pondering the same thing. Any farther comment would
violate DU posting rules, unfortunately. The Admins MUST
keep this site completely clean per Patriot Act, etc-for
better or worse.

[Mnemosyne]

8. "it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government n/t"

[Telly Savalas]

10. I realize our Democratic majority isn't serving us utopia on a platter

but I'm willing to give them a chance, and certainly prefer them to self-styled radicals with inoperable caps locks keys.

[Philosoraptor]

13. it is their duty, to throw off such government

[GreenZoneLT]

14. Revolutions suck, mostly

Violent revolutions nearly always end up installing a corrupt ruling elite who twist the revolutionaries' utopian vision into something horrible (Lenin, Robespierre, Pol Pot, Mao, Yassir Arafat) or are defeated and lead to reactionary oppression worse than the regime the revolution overthrew (Bonaparte, Bismarck, the Stuart Restoration).

The exception that proves the rule is the American Revolution, which was a rebellion led by the elite against a change in their status, and only became a radical social revolution in a nonviolent, negotiated fashion amongst the rebels.

Nonviolent revolutions, on the other hand, nearly always create a better society afterward (the U.S. civil rights movement, South Africa, the Eastern bloc).

To sum up: MLK, Mandela, Walesa = good. Che, Ho Chi Minh, Pedro Albizu Campos = bad.

[Philosoraptor]

18. Non violent revolution for me thanks.

I have never been about burning and bombing, just occupying our white house.

[liberal renegade]

15. At work

whenever the man is lurking, it's watch your footing!

[killbotfactory]

17. Violent change is inevitable, when peaceful change is impossible

To paraphrase Kennedy, among others.

[tavalon]

21. Yeah, but

I still believe the peaceful change is possible. I hope that doesn't leave me behind the eight ball. And I hope I'm right.