As I remember veterans against the war, and not a draft, is what ended the Vietnam fiasco

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/nation/4471933.html

Military members call for troop withdrawal from Iraq


NORFOLK, Va. — Military members opposed to the U.S. involvement in Iraq gathered today to demand the withdrawal of American troops and prepared to present their appeal to Congress.

More than 20 active-duty service members and about 100 supporters appeared at an event highlighting the efforts of Appeal for Redress, which calls for Congress to end the war, rather than increase troops in Iraq, as President Bush has planned. More than 1,000 military members have added their names to the appeal's list, which is to be given to Congress on Tuesday. snip

"We're trying to get as many appeals to Washington as possible to influence and give great weight to the dialogue" about the war, Hutto said.

Under the military whistle-blower protection act, military members can send appeals to members of Congress without reprisal.


Guys like John Kerry who had the guts to tell the truth is what ended that war. That was the big turnaround. That is why I wasn't drafted.

[Toots]

1. It was all the normal mothers and fathers that took to the streets that ended Vietnam

Veterans were a huge help as well but if there had not been a draft all those normal (not hippie) mothers and fathers would not have been there. It was the sight of the thousands upon thousands of regular moms and dads that tore at America's hearts.

[GreenZoneLT]

2. Revisionist, sentimental hogwash

Vietnam ended because Nixon ended it, slowly and agonizingly trying to do what we're currently trying to do in Iraq (arm and train the winner in a civil war). The regular moms and dads were marching when LBJ was in office; they're the ones that caused him not to run. Nixon didn't respond to protests at all, and when they turned violent, regular folks quit marching. Public opinion immediately after the Kent State shootings, for instance was heavily in favor of the National Guardsmen, because most Americans opposed the "revolution" more than they opposed the war.

[Toots]

3. Well I lived during those times and I don't find it revisionist at all

I remember well how Nixon hated the massive protests that were occurring around the nation. I remember Jackson State every bit as much as Kent State do you? Do you remember how Nixon's VP Spiro Agnew referred to the protesters? LBJ suffered some protest as well that is no lie but they swelled under Nixon to a huge roar...

[MadHound]

4. Ummm, no, that's not how it went down.

Nixon could have ended that war in '69, instead he scuttled the Paris Peace talks in order to draw the war out so that more money could be made and he could make political hay. It worked. And moms and dads and ordinary folks didn't take to the streets until '70, and the Kent and Jackson State had occured. It was indeed this sort of popular pressure that forced Nixon's hand, and forced him to start withdrawing troops. Oh, and LBJ didn't run because of popular sentiment against the war, he didn't run because he knew he would get his ass handed to him by RFK.

I would sugges that you go back and study your history, it is apparently lacking.

[EFerrari]

11. Nice summary, Mad Hound. n/t

[Rosa Luxemburg]

18. Is Bush doing the same as Nixon?

How far will the opinion polls have to go down for Bush to withdraw?

PS hopefully Bush will go the way of Nixon in the end?

[TahitiNut]

8. Viet Nam ended because of the work of a hitherto secret group ...

... who were shredding news magazines and tossing the small bits of paper into the air with a mantra "End Viet Nam Now" all over the country in small groups gathered in alleys and cul de sacs. Without them, we'd still be in Viet Nam just as we're still in Korea.

:dunce:

In an orgy of self-serving hindsight, every faction (of which there were many) with a grievance (and associated 'mission') cloaks itself with the credit for "getting us out of Viet Nam." As a Viet Nam veteran, I'm absolutely certain that the inequity of the draft (and "Fortunate Sons") played the largest role by far in mobilizing antiwar sentiment. Indeed, it was this very sentiment that led Al Gore to enlist. There's no question about it, imho. Clearly, many voices (with many mantras) combined to propel us out of Viet Nam. It's imppossible to tell which straw broke the camel's back. Giving credit to some mythical LAST straw is both lacking in ethics and lacking in logic.

[PsN2Wind]

15. Once again, TahitiNut, you're correct.

It was the cumulative effect of many groups that caused the end of that war. While each could claim that it was THEIR involvement, it was, in fact, the involvement of them all.

[WinkyDink]

10. WHAT?? Here's the real "public opinion" response:

"According to a national scientific study by the Urban Institute in May of 1970, the Kent State massacre was the single factor which triggered the only national student strike in US history. Over four million students protested and over 900 US colleges and universities shut down during the effective student strike.

President Nixon was pushed to the point of physical and emotional collapse and he promptly withdrew his US military invasion of Cambodia. The tide of public opinion shifted against the war in Vietnam. The historical impact of Kent State and the national student strike of May, 1970, remains recognized as crucial in US history.

Dr. George Katsiaficas of the Wentworth Institute in Boston is the leading expert about the impact of the Kent State massacre and the national student strike of May, 1970."
http://www.alancanfora.com/?q=node/8

I was in college then. The major news magazines had on their covers the famous photo of the young girl kneeling in horror over the dead body of a KS student, blood flowing from his head.

And I remember every bit of Jackson State, the assassinations, Black Power at the Mexico City Olympics, campus shut-downs (including mine, with the Nat'l Guard called to "re-claim" the Admin Bldg), etc.

[TahitiNut]

12. It's only coincidental that it was the end of that semester when draft deferments expired ...

... for the first time under the revised draft rules, right? IOW, male students at colleges and universities all over the country were about to be eligible for the draft at the end of a semester instead of being deferred as long as they were enrolled full-time in a degree program.

Under the pre-1970 draft deferment rules, a full-time student working toward a college degree was deferred (Class II-S). Interestingly, a lot of 'windage' was applied regarding the progress one made toward a degree. Many took 5-6 years.


BTW ... did you know that the girl kneeling over the body was a 14-year-old runaway? (Many assume she was another Kent State student. She wasn't.) Did you know she was arrested several times? Oh, the irony.

[bobthedrummer]

16. No, you are just as wrong as those that adhere to any ahistorical

politicized view. You are certainly entitled to believe anything, but your post completely ignores history.

It wasn't the VVAW that ended the Vietnam War, it wasn't the growth of the majority of Americans that opposed it, it certainly wasn't Nixon (who authorized utilizing the entire federal government against political opponents), it wasn't the media-it was the basic fact that it was not recognized/acknowledged as a war of national liberation by people that had a history of being occupied and exploited by many non-Vietnamese that set-up puppet Vietnamese governments that were elitist and corrupt and did not have the support of the people aka "hearts and minds".

[robcon]

5. I disagree.

It was the marches against the war by people like me - who were eligible for the draft - that ended the war, IMO. The veterans against the war were a small part of the protests all over the country.

[TahitiNut]

9. It's absolutely no accident whatsoever ...

... that the draft was converted to a lottery with very few exemptions, eliminating 80% of the favorable treatment of the affluent and connected, at the very same time that withdrawal from Viet Nam was undertaken.

By far, the most tragic irony was the May 4, 1970, Kent State shootings ... a confrontation between two major factions of Viet Nam draft avoiders: deferred students and National Guardsmen. College students were, for the first time, subject to the draft at the end of the semester that year - and not provided deferments until graduation. Imagine - the protests occurred a mere month before the male students would be subject to the draft. Coincidence?

[WinkyDink]

13. Males went to college because they had graduated from h.s. and it was the next

step, just like males before them and after. IOW, a normal educational progression wasn't being "draft avoiders".
HOWEVER, I DID know three guys who obtained basically phony MEDICAL deferments. But by 1970, why WOULDN'T anyone who could, "avoid" that evil, God-awful napalm-dropping massacre called "VietNam"?

No; the IRONY of Kent State is that the victims weren't even protesting anything.

The HORROR, the EVIL, is that OUR government allowed LIVE AMMO to be used on college campuses. LIVE AMMO.

[TahitiNut]

14. We seem to live in worlds with skies of very different colors.

I was in college between 1961-1966 ... taught high school in 1966-1967. Drafted in 1968, served in Viet Nam in 1969. I speak from my own direct experience and from direct knowledge of the many, many discussion I had with other guys, including fraternity brothers in college and other draftees in Viet Nam. Born and raised (and educated mostly) in the Detroit area, I won't pretend that the experience here was identical to the experience elsewhere in the country. In fact, there were HUGE differences in the perceptions of people in different parts of the country.

Your characterization of the motives of males who wnet to college could be matched by a claim that "Males joined the National Guard as a way to do their patriotic duty!" Just because something is true to some degree doesn't mean that other motivations and forces weren't at play to a HUGE extent. To pretend that males didn't maintain a full-time load instead of part-time, or didn't prolong their "student experience," or didn't secure a "teaching" postion (as a part of a graduate program), all largely in reaction to the considerations of the draft - is delusional, imho.

I used the term "draft avoiders" ... NOT "draft evaders." There's a difference. NOWHERE did I say there was anything "wrong." Nice straw man, however. :puke:

I quickly tire of the pretentious posturings of those for whom that time is now part of some "catechism" ... accompanied by politicized mantras and ideological zeal. The multitude of factions of that time defies most simplistic hindsights, yielding only to acknowledgement of broad cultural influences. The reality and influence of the grossly inquitable draft is, imho, unarguable.

[Jacobin]

6. Weren't most of the veterans against the war draftees to begin with?

:crazy:

Difference?

[NNN0LHI]

19. Not as I remember

John Kerry is the one who I remember testifying in Congress that opened up more eyes (including mine) than all the protests put together.

John Kerry wasn't drafted. Two-thirds of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers.

Shame we didn't have more like him who had the courage to tell the nation the truth about Vietnam.

Vietnam would have ended much sooner if we had.

Don

[LanternWaste]

7. There was no "one thing" that ended our involvement

There was no "one thing" that ended our involvement or was the catalyst for the end in VN. It was a vast number of things, some small, others large that when combined became an unstoppable movements.

From VAW to McNamara's realization of the cost of attrition to the youth movement to the Civil Rights movement and so many more.

[Orsino]

17. Patriotism fatigue ended the war.

Idiotic faux-patriotism is all that allowed it to happen in the first place.