I. Liar Libby

[H2O Man]

"5. On or about June 9, 2003, a number of classified documents from the CIA were faxed to the Office of the Vice President to the personal attention of LIBBY and another person in the Office of the Vice President. The faxed documents, which were marked as classified, discussed, among other things, Wilson and his trip to Niger, but did not mention Wilson by name. After receiving these documents, LIBBY and one or more other persons in the Office of the Vice President handwrote the names 'Wilson' and 'Joe Wilson' on the documents."
-- United States of America v. I. Lewis Libby; 10-28-05; page 4.

Gracious!

[bryant69]

1. You know - it's almost like you can't trust the Bush Administration

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[H2O Man]

9. Scooter power:

"And as you sit back, you want to learn: Why was this information going out? Why were people taking this information about Valerie Wilson and giving it to reporters? Why did Mr. Libby say what he did? Why did he tell Judith Miller three times? Why did he tell the press secretary on Monday? Why did he tell Mr. Cooper? And was this something where he intended to cause whatever damage was caused?"
-- Patrick Fitzgerald; Press Conference on 10-28-05

[porphyrian]

2. I wonder who the other person in the Office of the Vice President could be...

;)

[Mandate My Ass]

3. Now now...

Dick was probably in his hidey hole, or his coffin. It was daytime, wasn't it? :rofl:

[porphyrian]

4. His meditation chamber seals out all light.

http://starwars.wikia.com.nyud.net:8090/images/thumb/2/27/Chamber2.jpg/275px-Chamber2.jpg

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. My guess is

Cheney's Press Secretary.

[porphyrian]

14. I'm sure you're right. Or it was the guy who delivers the peroxide.

"Dick Cheney has chronic gum problems and his breath smells like shit as a result. He is also a CLOSE TALKER. He keeps a small bottle of diluted hydrogen peroxide which he rinses with every hour on the hour, and he swallows it instead of spitting. He also picks his nose vigorously (violently) and hums loudly and tunelessly to himself while taking shits."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/4/12/24219/8100

[Morgana LaFey]

50. Goodness! Isn't that an attractive little vignette? Whew! nt

[seemslikeadream]

19. Cathie Martin

I can't wait for her to be called as a witness

http://thenexthurrah.typepad.com/the_next_hurrah/2006/12/a_really_good_r.html

One of the most important witnesses against Libby will be Cathie Martin. She will testify:

Sometime not long before July 8, she told Libby that Plame worked at the CIA
She witnessed Libby's conversation with Matt Cooper on July 12 and (presumably) heard him make none of the caveats he has claimed to have made
Libby and Dick strategized a response to Wilson while on Air Force Two (and I suspect there are details of this conversation we don't yet know)
The last one, of course, is the doozy. While we don't know the content of that conversation, it likely covers a good deal of material that might go to the question of intent, to say nothing about Dick's centrality in this leak.

There were, as best as we know, just three people who participated in that discussion: Libby, Dick, and Martin.

I speculated on some of the challenges facing Libby in impugning two of the most important witnesses against him last March.

In this post, I muse about ways that Libby might try to attack the credibility of two of the most important witnesses against him, Cathie Martin and Ari Fleischer. I think that, in the past, Libby tried to undercut Ari's value as a witness in an IIPA trial, an attempt that is now useless. I suspect that Libby is now stuck in a Catch-22. He can claim Ari and Cathie are testifying now because they were involved in the leak in some way and they're trying to gain immunity in exchange for testifying. But if they were involved, it's almost certainly because he ordered them to be involved. So if Libby adopts this approach, he'll basically be making the case that he was involved in a conspiracy to out Plame.


http://www.talkleft.com/story/2005/10/30/417/38297

“The Vice-President saw a piece of intelligence reporting that Niger was attempting to buy uranium,” Cathie Martin, the spokeswoman for Cheney, told me. Sometime after he first saw it, Cheney brought it up at his regularly scheduled daily briefing from the C.I.A., Martin said. “He asked the briefer a question. The briefer came back a day or two later and said, ‘We do have a report, but there’s a lack of details.’ ” The Vice-President was further told that it was known that Iraq had acquired uranium ore from Niger in the early nineteen-eighties but that that material had been placed in secure storage by the I.A.E.A., which was monitoring it. “End of story,” Martin added. “That’s all we know.” According to a former high-level C.I.A. official, however, Cheney was dissatisfied with the initial response, and asked the agency to review the matter once again. It was the beginning of what turned out to be a year-long tug-of-war between the C.I.A. and the Vice-President’s office.

....Wilson returned to Washington and made his report. It was circulated, he said, but “I heard nothing about what the Vice-President’s office thought about it.” (In response, Cathie Martin said, “The Vice-President doesn’t know Joe Wilson and did not know about his trip until he read about it in the press.” The first press accounts appeared fifteen months after Wilson’s trip.)

http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/0414nj3.htm
Moreover, on July 12, 2003, the same day that Libby spoke to both Cooper and Miller, Libby and Cheney traveled aboard Air Force Two for the dedication of a new aircraft carrier in Norfolk, Va. During the flight either to or from Norfolk, Cheney, Libby, and Cathie Martin, then-assistant to the vice president for public affairs, discussed how they might rebut Wilson's charges and discredit him, according to federal court records, and interviews with people with first-hand knowledge of accounts that all three provided to federal investigators.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070113/ap_on_re_us/cia_leak_witnesses_1&printer=1
CATHIE MARTIN: A public affairs assistant to the vice president, Martin told Libby around July 8, 2003, that she learned from another government official that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA. Like Addington, Martin is referred to in the indictment but may not be called as a witness. YES SHE WILL


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/21/AR2006052101024.html
To help counter that contention, Libby's lawyers, in their May 12 court filing, identify former CIA spokesman Bill Harlow as a potential witness in the case, saying he was the government official who disclosed Plame's "employment status," probably in June 2003, to Cheney spokeswoman Cathie Martin, who then passed it on to Libby.



http://www.warandpiece.com/
Aboard Air Force Two, Cheney, Libby, and Martin discussed a then-still highly classified CIA document that they believed had information in it that would undercut Wilson's credibility. The document was a March 8, 2002 debriefing of Wilson by the CIA's Directorate of Operations after his trip to Niger. The report did not name Wilson or even describe him as a former U.S. ambassador who had served time in the region, but rather as a "contact with excellent access who does not have an established reporting record." The report made no mention of the fact that his wife was Valerie Plame, or that she may have played a role in having her husband sent to Niger.


http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/1/8/21152/02904
Cathie Martin's testimony
Cathie Martin serves as a witness to this charge in two ways. First, Libby's lawyers have revealed that Martin--and Libby's personal assistant Jenny Mayfield--were present when he called Cooper.

For example, regardless of whether Mr. Cooper chose to disclose the details of his conversation with Mr. Libby to the government, Mr. Libby could not have assumed that he could falsely represent the details of that conversation with abandon.Mr. Libby could not have assumed that he could falsely represent the details of that conversation with abandon. This is because two other witnesses were present for that call: Cathie Martin, Assistant to the Vice President for Public Affairs, and Jenny Mayfield, Mr. Libby's personal assistant. Obviously, Mr. Libby could not have expected that either Ms. Martin or Ms. Mayfield would refuse to cooperate with the investigation or testify falsely.
We have no idea what Martin (or Mayfield) has testified to wrt this conversation, though I kind of suspect that having Martin, at least, as a witness to corroborate Cooper's testimony is one of the reasons Fitzgerald brought the charge as it specifically relates to Cooper--because he had a third (and presumably fourth) witness to the content of the conversation. Though I also suspect that is why Libby's lawyers want to claim that Libby didn't mention Plame at all--because given the descriptions of this conversation, Martin and Mayfield could only testify to hearing Libby say "Yeah, I've heard that too"--they wouldn't have heard Cooper ask about Plame (unless he was on a speaker phone or something). So Libby's comment could be presented as not referring to Plame at all. Claiming that Libby didn't say he heard about Plame is a way to turn this into a claim that pits Libby's word against Cooper's, in an attempt to minimize the number of witnesses against Libby.

But Martin may have more to say about the content of Libby's conversations on July 12. That's because she was present for the discussion aboard Air Force Two at which she, Dick, and Libby discussed how they would respond to journalists' inquiries (including, specifically, Cooper's) about Wilson.

On or about July 12, 2003, LIBBY flew with the Vice President and others to and from Norfolk, Virginia, on Air Force Two. On his return trip, LIBBY discussed with other officials aboard the plane what LIBBY should say in response to certain pending media inquiries, including questions from Time reporter Matthew Cooper.
This is the meeting, remember, where Cathie Martin was pulled off of point-person duties with regard to the Wilson response, and Libby took over. Shortly after this conversation, Libby called "several" journalists and told them about Plame. I'm guessing, but I strongly suspect there is something that transpired at this meeting that supports the false statements and perjury charges relating to the July 12 conversations.

[H2O Man]

21. Good call.

She will be one of the keys to the conviction of Scooter Libby on all counts. More, after her testimony, there will be absolutely no excuse for the House to put off investigations into the OVP's role in this ugly chapter of American history.

[DoYouEverWonder]

22. Thanks

I couldn't remember her name.

Murray Wass featured her in his latest article.

[riderinthestorm]

5. Was this before or after the NYTimes article came out, H2Oman? nt

[H2O Man]

6. Great question!

Ambassador Wilson's NYTimes op-ed "What I Didn't Find in Africa" was published on July 6, 2003.

These documents were faxed the day after Condi Rice was on "Meet the Press," saying, "Maybe someone down in the bowels of the Agency knew about this, but nobody in my circles." (6-8-03)

[riderinthestorm]

7. Veeery interesting that they were already fretting even before Wilson wrote his op-ed.

Thanks for the info. Libby is so screwed.

[Me.]

11. OOOh, What A Liar That I Is

So, if it wasn't the op-ed, what set the OVP off? His (Wilson) appearance on CNN?
What I'm also wondering, given the questions being asked of potential jurors: what do you think of the vp. what is your opinion of the war. are you a publican or dem etc.....how many witnesses does the defense get to dismiss?

[EVDebs]

17. Yep. Just like the Nixon resignation...

First they had to get Spiro Agnew out as V.P. in order to get a pliant guy who'd go along with the program (Gerald Ford, Warren Commissioner should I say more ?).

Then, if the heat stays on and the impeachment proceeds into a crescendo, resignation can be an option.

We're nearing President Pelosi's time to shine.

[Spazito]

59. I have no doubt Cheney et al were on high alert shortly after

bush's 2003 State of the Union Address on Jan. 28, 2003 when he used this phrase:

"The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

From what I have read, Wilson tried, discreetly but firmly, to have the bush administration retract that accusation given the results of his investigative trip and that had to alarm the WHIG group/VP office. I think the timing of their intense interest of Wilson and his wife began when Wilson began pushing them on their lie long before he went public with his op-ed.

[tanyev]

13. Plotting in advance, were they? My, my.

[H2O Man]

16. "The immediate effect

of the workup, I am told by a member of the press, citing White House sources, was a long harangue against the two of us within the White House walls. Over a period of several months, Libby evidently seized opportunities to rail openly against me as an 'asshole playboy' who went on a boondoggle 'arranged by his CIA wife' -- and was a Democratic Gore supporter to boot."
-- The Politics of Truth; Joseph Wilson; page 442.

[yodermon]

20. And another favorite quote of mine, from Fitz:

Moreover, given that there is evidence that other White House officials with whom defendant spoke prior to July 14, 2003, discussed Wilson's wife's employment with the press both prior to, and after, July 14, 2003 - which evidence has been shared with defendant - it is hard to conceive of what evidence there could be that would disprove the existence of White House efforts to "punish" Wilson.

-Patrick Fitzgerald,
Government’S Response To Defendant’S Third Motion To Compel Discovery, filed 4/5/2006
link: http://www.nysun.com/30561.pdf , pg. 30.

[Patsy Stone]

24. Absolutely!

That's an excellent point. What could they possibly show?

Also, I believe that Fitz knows damn well that Scooter is the original leaker. I think he leaked it to Judy at their June 8th meeting, based on the March CIA debriefing he received, and, furthermore, that the reason she went to jail was to protect Libby.

Can I prove any of that? Noooo.

[formercia]

84. "Leaking it to Judy"

Adds a whole new dimension to their relationship.:evilgrin:

[ItsTheMediaStupid]

26. Playboy trip to central Africa??

'asshole playboy' who went on a boondoggle 'arranged by his CIA wife'

I've never understood how these guys thought they could turn a trip to someplace in Africa to a pleasure trip.

Wilson wasn't there to hunt elephants and I don't think there's a Playboy club on the entire continent. I've got a friend who is a career Foreign Service Officer and his take on Africa is that it's the place nobody wants to be assigned.

[Me.]

36. I'd Also Like To Point Out That Cheney's Disclaimer

that he didn't know who Wilson was is a crock. When Wilson was standing up to Saddam during Gulf I Cheney was Sec. of Defense, not to mention that both had been associated with the state dept. for years.

I guess if it comes down to it, Cheney could claim his heart problems and medication has eaten through his brain like cheesecloth and they could try and bring that memory expert in again.

[PRETZEL]

38. When all's said and done, this may ironically be the underlying reason

I've heard that during Gulf War I that Cheney wanted to topple Iraq in the worst way and that Bush decided against it. I wonder if it was Amb. Wilson who made the case against that strategy. If it was then we all know that Cheney is a vindictive little fuck who would have loved to stick it to him in the worst way.

Can anybody think of a better way of revenge than attempting to ruin someone and their family?

[DoYouEverWonder]

79. Cheney was probably pretty po'd that Wilson

got those hostages free. They probably wanted Saddam to kill them instead, to solidify US support for Gulf War 1.

[H2O Man]

80. I'm not sure

about Cheney. He was still fairly "conservative" at that time. His only concern was oil, and like Bush the Elder, most of the oil interests were okay with the ending of the Gulf War. But if you take this idea a step further, it becomes more important: the people directly under Cheney, who were furious that Bush the Elder didn't occupy Iraq, were fully aware of Wilson's actions. And those actions certainly helped to contain Saddam.

The two people who would have been fully aware of Wilson from that time on would be Wolfowitz and Libby. Small world. In the next few years, they would transform Cheney from a "conservative" oil puppet to a neoconservative advocate.

It is worth keeping in mind that Libby and Cheney -- along with Feith -- had their own intelligence group, the OSP, which reviewed a large amount of information on Iraq in the build-up to the war. That included information they were not really entitled to. I think it is fair to say they were aware of Wilson's late-90s trip to Africa for the Agency, to investigate a report quite similar to the 2002 trip.

[PRETZEL]

83. Is it possible that another dot being connected in that

what has been revealed subsequently was the nature of Ms. Plame's work at the CIA and her prior connections to Brewster-Jennings.

I'm not sure if I'm correct but wasn't there both lack of credible evidence and skepticism of what evidence there was concerning Iraqi WMD's that was coming directly from Ms. Plame's unit at the CIA? From things I've read, it was Wolfowitz who seemed to make the case that it was the WMD's that would sell the best in the run up. Those views seem (at least to me) to run completely contrary to what was the view of the Iraqi unit at the CIA. Putting two and two together seems it necessary for the Administration to discredit the views coming from that unit in order to promulgate their own views.

And now for the conspiracy theorist in me question. Was Amb. Wilson used to set up his own wife in order to discredit the one agency in our country that would have had the most knowledge about the WMD capabilities? Is it fair to assume that Cheney etal. would have believed that Amb. Wilson would not have kept quiet about the uranium purchases that were so totally bogus as to be almost laughable? Is it also fair to assume that once Amb. Wilson came out against the adminstration claims that gave those in the Admin their chance to put into action the exact events that they wanted to happen to effectively neuter the very same CIA unit that ironically included Amb. Wilson's wife, but also was the agency that most directly knew the most about the situation in Iraq as it related to WMD's?

[Spazito]

88. I was wondering what level of security clearance Joe Wilson

would have had, given he was married to a NOC and was aware of that and, also, he would have had to have had a certain level of security clearance in his own right given his previous positions and in order for the CIA to request he investigate the Niger question? The reason I was wondering was because, if he had a level of security clearance close to that of his wife's, would she have been able to legally share some of her knowledge with him and that, alone, might have "red-flagged" both of them in the minds of the OSP/WHIG group, both for what they had done and what they had planned to do re Iraq/Iran and given Wilson's actions after the 2003 State of the Union lie re Niger/yellow-cake?

Whether this question really has anything to do with it, I don't know, but I am curious none the less.



Edited to take out an extraneous thought that I did not complete but didn't delete, lol.

[H2O Man]

92. Good questions.

I'm going to try to answer some of this and the post you responded to here. The two of you are cutting through some of the outer layers, and focusing on something very important.

The CIA has people directly and indirectly employed. In many countries, the Agency has its agents with "official cover" working out of its embassies. The largest number of agents in foreign countries are found there for issues of access and immunity. Agents are also found in businesses (energy/technology/weapons); in universities; and media, among many others. And, of course, there are NOCs, without any "cover," or immunity. You can see how different people would have different access.

We know from the State documents sent to Cheney and Libby that Wilson had done an assignment for the Agency before, in the late '90s. It was closely related to the 2002 issues, hence he was the obvious choice. The chances that the OSP was not aware of the previous task seems extremely unlikely.

If we look at the article by Marie Brenner in Vanity Fair titled "Lies and Consequences: Sixteen Words That Changed the World," we find that Scooter told Judith Miller about a "clandestine guy" who was married to someone "who works in bureau?". I think most evidence indicates Scootewr told Judith that Ms. Wilson worked in a specific part of the Agency.

Now look closely at VP Cheney's notes on the Wilson op-ed: why does he ask if it is usual to send an ambassador to do intelligence research? He knows very well that it is something quite common. He isn't asking it because he is confused. Rather, he is outlining the approach the WHIG will take -- "hinting" it was a pleasant vacation for Wilson, sipping mint tea in the comforts of Niger, all arranged by his spouse.

[Spazito]

97. Thanks for your response, H20 Man....

I am trying to keep the big picture in mind while also focusing on the puzzle piece that is the Libby trial. I am reminded of a graphic that shows the whole picture while allowing one to "zoom in" to enlarge a specific part of the picture to see the detail then allows one to zoom back out to incorporate that added detail back into the whole picture.

[H2O Man]

98. Yep.

The Libby trial is exactly that -- a piece of the puzzle that we can zoom in on. It is funny, in a way, because the OVP/WHIG had not thought there would be any serious investigation at first ("As late as December 5, 2003, 'a senior White House official' was quoted in the Financial Times gloating, 'We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one'." page 360; Wilson) .... but then, when Mr. Fitzgerald took over, they thought he would get lost trying to track down every detail. And we see the rabid republicans foaming today, because Mr. Fitzgerald "didn't charge anyone with the leak," etc, etc. Instead, he is going to convict Scooter for a few pieces of the larger puzzle. And the corporate media is putting it in the context of a bigger puzzle, and bloggers are putting that into the proper context of an even larger puzzle. I'm confident that on DU, we will have some of the most interesting views of that puzzle to be found anywhere.

[riderinthestorm]

91. I can't answer for H2OMan but DU has a lot of threads answering your questions.

Brewster Jennings was tracking WMDs and nuclear material. Valerie Plame's specialty was in the illegal movement of those things. There is a lot of speculation that Joe Wilson wasn't the sole target for the OVP (although I'm sure Cheney et al didn't cry over taking him down) - it was Plame's/Brewster Jennings' work that they were really targeting to shut down since it was getting too close to Cheney's own illicit arms dealing and his relationship to AQ Khan in Pakistan.

Even further speculation revolves around a plan to plant WMDs in Iraq, and Judy Miller's role as an embedded reporter who was supposed to be the one to announce their discovery, which Plame/Brewster Jennings would or could have been close to discovering (did discover?!)

You won't find that this is considered a conspiracy theory here at DU - I would even go so far as to say most people here believe this as fact.

[H2O Man]

93. I was posting

a response (post #92) when you posted this. I think the two go together quite well.

[riderinthestorm]

96. Heh. Jinx!

:D

[DoYouEverWonder]

101. Even more reason for them

to go after Wilson, when Wilson managed to get in their way a second time.

Wilson got Saddam off the hook and took away the neocons pawns in the game in GW1. Nothing much they could do about it at the time, since Wilson was now a 'hero'.

Then Wilson shows up again for GW2 and exposes their lies in the NYT's. I bet it wasn't just Cheney who was out to get the Wilsons at that point.

[H2O Man]

102. Right.

Also, between March (when he stated on CNN that the administration had "more information" about the Niger documents the IAEA called crude forgeries) and July (the NYTimes op-ed), Wilson had spoken to the staffs of the House and Senate Intelligence Committees, and briefed them about his trip. Then he "ended up briefing them separately within a few days of each other in mid-June, disclosing what I knew to the appropriate oversight bodies." (Wilson; page 419) While these hearings are not going to be made public, I can assure DUers that people in the OVP/WHIG/OSP were very aware of what Wilson was doing. And they were furious.

[PRETZEL]

120. Thanks for all the input,

this has been a great forum and discussion.

You mentioned in post #98 about Amb. Wilson's testimony and the OVP/WHIG fears of investigations over his allegations. I guess I'm a little suprised that the admin would have been worried over his testimony given the environment of Congress at the time. I'm not sure of the timing of the events, but we saw Tenet fall on his sword over this and my guess is that they could have called for this at any time and laid blame squarely on him (which any good fall guy would accept) and the issue of the Niger documents would have been easily swept under the rug. Amb. Wilson would have been swiftboated as a Dem. hack based on his contributions to Gore and his outspokenness to the war which, if I remember correctly, had a great deal of public support (and Congressional cheerleading). The right wing spin machine would have been all over this and the media would have been right there cheering them on. It would have been case closed.

Personally, if Novak never mentions Valerie Plame (and if I recall the reference to her wasn't terribly germane to the topic) Amb. Wilson's op-ed only gets a day or two coverage. If Valerie Plame is outed separately, I would tend to think we have a pure violation of IIPA and the admin would have been in real deep doodoo. The ironic twist of fate is the fact that they are married and their own individual expertise just happen to coincide with the main issues that needed to be silenced in order to propagandate this war.

[H2O Man]

121. On page 4

of his book, Wilson writes about the reaction of Sandy Berger, when the White House admitted the "16 words" uranium claim "does not rise to the level that we would put in a presidential speech": "Since the Bush people never backed down, he pointed out, the fact that they had been so quick to admit their error this time meant that they must have something more important to protect."

Early on in the DU "Plame Threads" of '04, I posted a little essay called "The Waterman Paper," which summed up the PT participants' belief that the "something more important" was the work Ms. Plame was involved in. Isikoff & Corn's book "Hubris" seems to support that belief.

[PRETZEL]

124. The Plame threads here was the main reason

that I read "Hubris".

(On a personal note to H20 Man, if you haven't already written a book on this you really should. Your knowledge and research on this subject would be of great interest to a great many of us. You most certainly need to be commended for work. Thanks, Rich)

[mod mom]

8. Cheney decided to de-classify it-the decider gave him authority.

Won't this be the defense made for this treasonous act?

[H2O Man]

23. This is an interesting

point: Team Libby has wanted to keep Mr. Fitzgerald from discussing Libby's "sharing" NIE information with Miller. However, Mr. Fitzgerald has been clear that he is not saying it was illegal for Libby to "share" the information that Cheney said was declassified.

However, by February, it will be clear that the House must force Cheney to testify about his actions in the operation against the Wilsons.

[mod mom]

27. So will Cheney's reason for de-classification be a moot point?

ie he has the ability to de-classify for political reasons (or whatever reason he deems necessary) due to chimpy's decree?

[H2O Man]

30. It is not

going to be a legal issue in terms of this trial. It has very serious implications for VP Cheney, however.

[riderinthestorm]

34. This trial is about Scooter's perjury and cover up, not the actual leak.

So Cheney's de-classification isn't the issue here but the fall-out from the testimony about it should be enough to prompt the House to begin investigating (and of course provide more fodder for the Wilson's civil suit).

As H2OMan has said over and over, if we want to see this thing really grow it will be up to us to get the word to our reps and LTTE - to ensure the public's education is factual, as well as to create enough storm for Congress to look at it.

[bigtree]

10. memories

k&r

[Pithy Cherub]

15. But, But, Evil Incarnate thinks he's the most honest

man he knows which is why Cheney invited him to his Christmas Party at the Naval Observatory. Hyperbole in this affair is going to reach unheralded heights. Matthews and a bunch of reporters have already forgotten how the case works and now there is a rebranding issue going on to make Libby a decent human who funds neighborhood kool-aid stands.:hide:

Looking forward to your running commentary on all of this!

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

18. NPR shills for the OVP...

Listening right now for the second time NPR's vapid take on the upcoming trial. After ten minutes of drivel and misdirection, I am once again reminded that the average DUer knows far more about this case than the average pundit, thanks in the main to the epic "Plame Threads" of 2004.

And thanks to the insight of many contributors, including the guidance of Mr. Waterman.

"The Truth is the engine of our judicial system." - Patrick Fitzgerald

[CatWoman]

28. you should have heard the wingnuts come out in force on Wash Journal this a.m.

one by one, yelling "Sandy Burglar".

[Straight Shooter]

32. Every time we show Repubs a mountain, they holler "Molehill! Molehill!"

Sandy's actions didn't kill anyone's career, nor did it cause CIA agents in the field to be harmed or assassinated (we'll never know for certain).

Sandy's actions caused no serious interference with tracking WMD. Nor did his actions disrupt the flow of information which would help us specifically to gain knowledge of Iran's intentions.

Sandy's actions did not assist in covering up the Pakistan-Kahn-Cheney connection.

Sandy did not cause an entire operating front of the CIA (Brewster Jennings) to shut down.

Sandy's action did not harm the national security of our country.

And of course, Sandy operated on his own, not at the behest of Darth Cheney.

[Beetwasher]

25. "and another person in the Office of the Vice President."

Hmmm, I wonder, could "another person in the OVP" be THE VP??? Or is it Martin?

Good stuff.

[H2O Man]

29. "Cathie Martin:

"9. On or about June 12, 2003, LIBBY was advised by the Vice President of the United States that Wilson's wife worked at the Central Intelligence Agency in the Counterproliferation Division. LIBBY understood that the Vice President had learned this information from the CIA."
-- US v. Libby; Indictment; page 5

"A public affairs assistant to the vice president, Martin told Libby around July 8, 2003, that she had learned from another government official that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA."
--CIA Leak Witnesses; Newsday; 1-13-07

"On the plane ride back to Washington from Norfolk on July 12, Cheney strategized once again with Libby and Martin as to how to discredit Wilson's allegations, according to people familiar with the federal grand jury testimony of both Libby and Martin."
-- CIA Leak Probe:Inside the Grand Jury; Murray Waas; 1-12-07

Very few people are going to make notes on the margins of the Vice President's documents.

[Beetwasher]

31. What's Martin's Current Status?

Didn't she leave the admin. or is she still there performing some function? Would her incentive to testify against Libby (and Cheney?) be to avoid jail? Do you think she's a protected witness? Hostile witness? I wonder. That's gotta be interesting, considering how close she was to Cheney. I hope she's got protection.

[Emit]

44. On Cathie and her husband Kevin Martin

Old Bio, but interesting:

Mr. and Mrs. Juice

When Vice-President Dick Cheney named Catherine Martin to replace Mary Matalin as his chief spokeswoman on Dec. 13 he made it official: Washington has a new power couple.

Cathie Martin, 34, is married to Kevin Martin, 36, one of five members of the Federal Communications Commission. They met at Harvard Law School--both are class of '93--and despite having been in Washington only a few years, have rocketed to the upper echelons of the capital power structure. Cathie gained Cheney's confidence while accompanying him on political trips before the midterm elections, and Kevin helped vanquish Al Gore in the Florida recount battle.

After a brief stint as deputy chief of staff and White House liaison for Commerce Secretary Donald Evans, Cathie Martin served as Matalin's No. 2 for the past 18 months. Before that, the University of Texas grad worked for former Texas Attorney General (now Senator-elect) John Cornyn.

Kevin Martin earned his spurs by being on the first flight to Florida from Austin the day after the contested 2000 election. As deputy general counsel to the Bush campaign, he oversaw the legal team working behind the scenes with the Dade and Broward County canvassing boards. His connections came in handy: He had clerked for U.S. District Court Judge William Hoeveler in Miami.

Now, Kevin Martin could hold the balance of power at the FCC, where he may be a swing vote in such crucial issues as deregulation of the Baby Bells.
By Paula Dwyer and Catherine Yang

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:W7-20A4sVvEJ:www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_52/c3814061.htm+Cathie+Martin&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

Current:
I think she's now Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy Communications Director for Policy and Planning and her husband, Kevin, is Chairman of the FCC:

(Be careful with this first link, it's giving me a weird message so I included the cached version)
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:xEny0iYaxEMJ:https://www.whitehouse.gov/government/cmartin-bio.html+catherine+martin+Deputy+Assistant+to+the+President+and+Deputy+Communications+Director+for+Policy+and+Planning&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:cpyxkvivXkEJ:www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/social-security/+catherine+martin+Deputy+Assistant+to+the+President+and+Deputy+Communications+Director+for+Policy+and+Planning&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

http://www.fcc.gov/commissioners/martin/

[LuckyLib]

76. Texas and Florida. Why are we not surprised? The * cabal is

packed with loyalists from these two states -- every agency, every department. Packed. They may not know squat about the field they're in, but by gawd, they gave money, worked the phones, or kissed the ass of someone, somewhere in Texas or Florida.

[H2O Man]

33. "But if that same person

was someone who had spoken to Mr. libby, spoken to the press and was being a witness and at the same time they wrote down an email that said, just had a meeting with Mr. Libby, sent it off to someone and we looked for the email and we found it and we had it or they wrote a memo to file at a time which was not an FBI interview after the investigation started but a memo to file at the time or handwritten notes and we have that, we've given that over."
-- Patrick Fitzgerald; Friday, May 5, 2006; pre-trial hearing

E-mails? About discussions with Scooter? For goodness sakes!

[Me.]

35. The 250 (350?) Emails

That Rove led FitzGerald to?

[bleever]

37. Very curious as to how Cheney expects to navigate this.

"He's a fine man" and a twenty-foot wall of "executive privilege"?

"Scooter had a lot on his mind, and besides, I just asked him to get the facts out"?

I don't see how he avoids shedding light on his and Scooter's leaking of NIE info, and the use of the "magic lips" theory that the VP can declassify national security intelligence just by saying so.

[H2O Man]

39. Q: Do you recall ever

discussing those issues with Vice President Cheney?

LIBBY: Yes, sir. ....

Q: Was it a topic that was discussed on a daily basis?

LIBBY: Yes, sir.

Q: And was it discussed on multiple occassions each day in fact?

LIBBY: Yes, sir.

-- From Libby's Grand Jury testimony.

It's showtime.

[DoYouEverWonder]

41. Apparently, the Wilsons

were of great concern to Libby and Cheney.

If they discussed them in passing once or twice, that would be one thing. But to discuss them on multiple occasions on a daily basis, obviously the Wilson problem was a top priority.

You would think with looking for Usama, they would have better things to focus on?

[bleever]

40. Link to live blogging at firedoglake:

http://www.firedoglake.com/2007/01/16/libby-trial-pregame-show

[Tatiana]

42. I wonder what effect this will have on the Wilsons' civil suit.

Or vice versa. There are all sorts of tidbits in the grand jury testimony that just beg furher investigation.

There seems to be an obsession with Joe Wilson that predates his NYT op-ed. Where did the visceral, almost personal, hatred come from?

What does Joe Wilson have on the office of the VP? (And I presume he's privy to some information not divulged in his book - likely classified.)

[King Coal]

43. But they dind't mean to do it.

[Dinger]

45. Just Call Him ILL

His intials doncha know

[H2O Man]

46. People may notice

that Jack Eckenrode is being listed as a witness. Pay very close attention. He is the investigator who got ashcroft to recuse himself. Libby made a big mistake trying to lie to this guy. A big mistake.

[robertpaulsen]

47. The I, of course, stands for Infamous.

It's so easy to confuse Tim Russert with either of the Dicks, of course.

:kick: & R.

[H2O Man]

49. Infamous?

I was thinking it was for "I'm fucked." But Infamous works, too.

[robertpaulsen]

54. Imprisonment-Awaits?

:rofl:

[H2O Man]

56. Imate Lewis Libby? n/t

[Me.]

58. You Beat Me

I was going to say In-car-cer-rated

[Pastiche423]

48. Back to the top!

[H2O Man]

51. Document 105-1

"The second principal reason for the admissibility of the annotated Wilson Op Ed lies in the annotations placed on a copy of the article by the defendant's immediate supervisor, the Vice President. Those annotations support the proposition that the publication of the Wilson Op Ed acutely focused the attention of the Vice President and the defendant -- his chief of staff -- on Mr. Wilson, on the assertions made in his article, and on responding to those assertions. The annotated version of the article reflects the contemporaneous reaction of the Vice President ...."
-- page 3

Well, well, well.

[H2O Man]

52. Document 105-1 page 8 .....

"Finally, the government notes in the interest of completeness that it may offer annotated copies of an October 2003 article by Semour Hersch in The New Yorker if it appears that the defendant will pursue the defense that he was too focused on other urgent national security matters to remember accurately what took place during his conversations with reporters. The government received from the OVP multiple copies of the same article bearing handwritten annotations, apparently by the defendant and others in his office."

This is one of those little things I would hope DUers keep in mind. May be important. Wouldn't surprise me if some journalists/bloggers look closer at it in the next few days.

[DoYouEverWonder]

53. So Fitzgerald has more documents/articles

that they all scribbled notes on about Wilson?

Oh my!

Looks like we have a good case for conspiracy here?

[H2O Man]

55. There are others.

Looks like the House needs to investigate the OVP's role in this ugly scandal.

[Me.]

57. Now Just How Did He Get That? WOW!

Martin or Rove?

:popcorn:

[Beetwasher]

60. FOR REFERENCE HERE'S THE NOTATED NYT ARTICLE

DU thread on it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1185077

[H2O Man]

61. Great!

By any chance, would you have a link to the Hersch article ?

[Beetwasher]

62. Unfortunately, No

I'm sure someone here will have it though!

[DoYouEverWonder]

63. Which one?

Stovepipe?

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/031027fa_fact?031027fa_fact

[H2O Man]

65. Yep.

Thanks.

[Spazito]

64. Are you wanting the article titled "The Stovepipe"?

If so, here is the link:

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/031027fa_fact?031027fa_fact

[H2O Man]

66. Great article.

Not surprised it upset Dick & Scooter! I hope Mr. Fitzgerald makes the notations public.

[Me.]

67. Some Bits

“The point is not that the President and his senior aides were consciously lying. What was taking place was much more systematic—and potentially just as troublesome. Kenneth Pollack, a former National Security Council expert on Iraq, whose book “The Threatening Storm” generally supported the use of force to remove Saddam Hussein, told me that what the Bush people did was “dismantle the existing filtering process that for fifty years had been preventing the policymakers from getting bad information. They created stovepipes to get the information they wanted directly to the top leadership. Their position is that the professional bureaucracy is deliberately and maliciously keeping information from them.” Cont…

“Wilson returned to Washington and made his report. It was circulated, he said, but “I heard nothing about what the Vice-President’s office thought about it.” (In response, Cathie Martin said, “The Vice-President doesn’t know Joe Wilson and did not know about his trip until he read about it in the press.” The first press accounts appeared fifteen months after Wilson’s trip.)” cont...

“Vice-President Cheney remains unabashed about the Administration’s reliance on the Niger documents, despite the revelation of their forgery. In a September interview on “Meet the Press,” Cheney claimed that the British dossier’s charge that “Saddam was, in fact, trying to acquire uranium in Africa” had been “revalidated.” Cheney went on, “So there may be a difference of opinion there. I don’t know what the truth is on the ground. . . . I don’t know Mr. Wilson. I probably shouldn’t judge him.”

The Vice-President also defended the way in which he had involved himself in intelligence matters: “This is a very important area. It’s one that the President has asked me to work on. . . . In terms of asking questions, I plead guilty. I ask a hell of a lot of questions. That’s my job.”

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/031027fa_fact?031027fa_fact

[H2O Man]

68. Well, Mr. VP ....

now you are going to be answering some questions.

[bleever]

75. Perception management.

Dick has become a high master of The Art.

The Art has its limits.

[H2O Man]

69. Red sky in the morning .....

WALTON: ... Is the government going to seek to try to establish that there was damage? I'm not asking you to go into what the damage was.

FITZGERALD: I will say this. We will not offer any proof of actual damage specific to Valerie Plame Wilson. We are not getting into the fact specifics of her. The issue of potential damage, the harm that comes from people being outed will come up indirectly several times and I can point, for example, one of the things that Mr. Wells actually looked to was the article.

One of the articles that came out in the New Republic in June of 2003. There was some discussion in there. After that article a witness spoke to Mr. Libby by telephone who was describing what it is that some of the problems were about Mr. Wilson's trip and the person said, can you make some information public, and Mr. Libby said, we can't because there are complications at the CIA which he didn't explain further.

So the issue of potential damage may come up. In a different conversation that Mr. Libby was present for, a witness did describe to Mr. Libby and another person the damage that can be caused specifically by the outing of Ms. Wilson. It was before the grand jury. It was back in July of 2003.

So it goes directly to his state of mind as to being is there a motive to lie. But we're not going to call specific witnesses about her. ... We do have state of mind evidence of the conversations he had with witnesses that averted to the issue of what happens when a person is outed.


WALTON:How would his state of mind in that regard be relevant to the charges in this case?

FITZGERALD: The motive to lie. What I think when you see the grand jury testimony saying that he learned information that, in his mind, he was attributing to a reporter and didn't know if it were true and passing it on makes it a non-crime or looks much more innocent than passing on what you knew to be classified, and that goes to his motive to lie.

WALTON: I've got you.
-- May 5, 2006 Pretrial Hearing

H2O Man: Scooter, you are in trouble!

[Me.]

72. Why On Earth Are They Allowing Him To Take The Stand

***** Thread

[H2O Man]

73. Though the judge will

instruct a jury that every defendant has the right not to testify, and that they are not to draw any conclusions from it if the defendant doesn't testify, in a case such as this, the defense attorneys know better. A significant part of the charges have to do with lying to the grand jury. This jury will hear all about that. There aren't any good choices for Libby.

[Annces]

70. Looks like Walton is trying to be fair

So hopefully there will be no shenanigans to get Libby off.

[H2O Man]

71. Libby will be convicted

on all counts. Also, Judge Walton is closing the door as far as issues that might have a chance on appeal.

[CatWoman]

74. kick

:kick:

[Virginian]

77. Fox and O'Reilly's war on NBC.

Is there a possibility that O'Reilly is setting up a case for Libby? If MSNBC is the most "Liberal" station on the air (or whatever he said), then Tim Russert MUST have an agenda against Libby and his testimony can't be believed.
Is this why Billo has turned his attention to the entire network and not just to Olbermann?
Joe Scarborough is really upset over being called a liberal.

If your network allows more than one viewpoint, the whole network must be slanted?

Sorry, I don't get any of the fox logic.

[H2O Man]

78. O'Reilly is serving

as a mouthpiece for numerous Fox "personalities." And they serve to channel the message from the OVP. It is no coincidence that a significant part of the Plame scandal can be traced back to calls from the OVP to MSNBC/NBC to complain about Chris Matthews' reporting on Cheney & Libby's lies that brought this nation to war in Iraq. In fact, when Matthews said that he believed the yellow cake lie could be traced to Libby, the shit hit the fan.

[leveymg]

81. That document goes back to the May (29-31) fax from Marc Grossman to Libby

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2430557&mesg_id=2430987

[Me.]

82. Oh Please...

We know from the years spent discussing this scandal that I Liar likes to think of himself as a James Bond type when what he really is a sad, short little man who betrayed his country. However for laughs I am posting parts of an article I came across on DU/ Personally I always thought his nickname to be a big tell on him:

WASHINGTON, Jan. 16 — Paradox seems to define I. Lewis Libby Jr., who remains a bit mysterious even to close colleagues. He is the White House policy enforcer who also wrote a literary novel; a buttoned-down Washington lawyer who likes knocking back tequila shots in cowboy bars and hurtling down mountains on skis and bikes; and a 56-year-old intellectual known to all by his childhood nickname, Scooter.

But now comes the most baffling paradox of all, as Mr. Libby, former chief of staff and alter ego to Vice President Dick Cheney, began his trial in federal court here on Tuesday on charges of perjury and obstruction of justice. By all accounts a first-rate legal mind and a hypercautious aide whose discretion frustrated reporters, he is charged with repeatedly lying to a grand jury and to the F.B.I. about his leaks to the news media in the battle over Iraq war intelligence.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x257412

[H2O Man]

85. Interesting article.

As I recall, in the late summer/early fall of 2004, in the infamous Plame Threads, DUers had a discussion about the various personality types of the fellows from the OVP/WHIG/OSP involved in the Plame scandal. And I remember mentioning much of this type of information about Scooter. For example, he was fond of trying to impress others by slamming down shots of strong drink, and pretending it had no affect on him. (Now, I can't remember the exact thread -- which probably seems sad when compared to the quote from Donald Hindle in the NYTimes article: "He could remember not only all 79 'Star Trek' episodes, as I could, but he knew the titles, too," Mr. Hindle said. "I think he always liked fantasy.") I think this was part of Scooter's "Liddy fantasy," a shorter man's version of burning one's hand with a cigarette.

This delusional self-image actually caught up to Scooter when he met on October 14, 2003, with one of the most capable FBI investigators, Jack Eckenrode. Corn & Isikoff note in "Hubris" that he is a "dogged investigator who reminded some of the Tommy Lee Jones character in The Fugitive." (page 330) Jack had a history of working on sensitive investigations, and much like Patrick Fitzgerald, refused to allow politics to get in his way. Before interviewing Libby, he had already interviewed both Novak and Rove.

Libby thought he could fool Jack with a bullshit story about hearing that Valerie Plame Wilson worked for the CIA from reporters. He even went so far as to identify two reporters -- Matt Cooper and Tim Russert. What Scooter didn't realize is that there are 100 ways for a seasoned investigator to catch a criminal. The average criminal might think of, and "cover," 10 of them. Really smart ones cover 25. The brightest cover about 50%. That leaves a lot for the investigator. Scooter's self-confidence in his own ability to fool his friends led him to think he could fool Jack. Instead, he uncovered two of the ways a seasoned investigator could nail him: Cooper and Russert.

[Me.]

86. Maybe He Is More Fantastic Than We Realize

He can remember, word for word, conversations he never had, which is truly fantastic.

Made me laugh last night on Tweety when the one reporter seemed to be defending the liar and Tweety was incredulous asking how can you remember a conversation you never had.

[H2O Man]

99. Libby .....

It's important for DUers to keep two things in mind; First, in the weeks before he was indicted, Libby had his attorneys try to arrange a plea deal with Mr. Fitzgerald. As it turned out, Libby was unwilling to accept what Patrick offered. Libby said there was too lengthy an incarceration.

Second, on the day he was indicted, Libby broke down and wept as he realized he was out of the OVP. I say that not to mock him. I do not think our jails and prisons are inviting, and I do not believe that Scooter is going to any "country club." My point is that despite his attempts to feign being a tough guy, Scooter Libby is scared right now.

[Me.]

100. Then Maybe He Should Wipe That Smile From His Face

Shooting his wife grins when a juror who doesn't like Cheney gets dismissed is perhaps not the brightest move.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

104. H2Oman - comedian...

"Liddy fantasy," a shorter man's version of burning one's hand with a cigarette.

[janx]

87. kick

[Marnieworld]

89. oooooohhhhhhh!!!!!! Yummy!

:popcorn:

This is gonna be fun.

[Swamp Rat]

90. kick!!!!!

:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:

[H2O Man]

94. Hello, Friend Swamp Rat !!!

It looks like we will be having a Plame Threads reunion!

[Swamp Rat]

95. Yaay!

I came back to the USA just in time for the fireworks! ... though, I was considering NOT coming back. ;-)

[H2O Man]

103. Day Two:

Things are good. We're on our way, folks. It's been a long time coming.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

105. Sometime in the next two months...

Special Counsel Patrick Fitgerald will cross-examine the VP. Oh, to have a seat in that courtroom - I wish Jane Hamsher could be there...

"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, that his justice cannot sleep forever."

[H2O Man]

106. Libby is in trouble.

Team Libby will "admit" that many others talked with Scooter about Plame, and that he did not learn about it from "journalists." Ha! Like they had any real choice!

[Me.]

107. Does This Mean They Will Not Call

Russert or any of the other journalists?

[H2O Man]

108. Mr. Fitzgerald will.

Libby isn't going to get off easy. Team Libby can't manipulate that easily.

[Me.]

109. Day Three

Hope Fitzgerald uses his pre-emptories to get rid of the Lockeed woman and the one from the Washington Times.

[H2O Man]

110. I think that

later today, when they get a "full" pool, they begin the process. We can expect the defense to get rid of more people than Mr. Fitzgerald.

[Me.]

113. As I Understand It

Team Libby gets 12 dismissals for cause while our guy only gets 6.

[H2O Man]

115. No problem.

If Team Libby had 21 and Mr. Fitzgerald had but 3, Libby would still be convicted on each and every charge. There still may be a surprise before opening statements. It is a stressful time for both Libby and Cheney. I saw a republican journalist demanding that Bush pardon Scooter two days ago. That is a good measure of how sure that side is that: {1}Scooter is sure to be convicted; and {2} the trial will damage the administration in general, and the OVP in particular.

[Me.]

117. Just Read A Piece By Schuster

who said FitzG. gets 8

[H2O Man]

118. In his position,

Mr. Fitzgerald will only use them to get rid of people who are so rigid in their thinking that they are incapable of processing the evidence put before them; I do not think that he will use more than three.

Team Libby, on the other hand, is more threatened by people who not only process the evidence, but who seem capable of setting it out in an organized manner during the jury's deliberations.

[H2O Man]

119. PS:

I believe Mr. Fitzgerald gets 6. Here is why: The court gets a pool of 36 qualified potential jurors. Then between the defense and prosecution, they get to give people the boot. The defense gets 12, the prosecution 6. Then, even if all are used up, it leaves 16 people.

The jury will be made up of 12 jurors, and 4 alternates. If Mr. Fitzgerald had 8, the math wouldn't work.

(On edit: I see where David has said both 6 (1-16) and 8 (1-17) on two different essays on his journal.)

[Me.]

126. More On The Jury

From FDL: We have 24 in the potential juror pool so far. 9 have been excused. We need to get to 36 acceptable potential jurors, then then we'll get to both sides' peremptory challenges. I don't have this solid, but what I gather is the prosecution holds 6 peremptory strikes and then 2 more for potential alternates, while the defense holds 10 strikes with an additional two for alternates. That makes for a total of 20 strikes to come from the eventual availble pool of 36 to be completed, leaving 12 jurors and 4 alternates. Got that? Now if a train is moving west toward Memphis at forty-five miles per hour in the rain. . .

And David Corn’s take on the jury selection:

www.thenation.com/blogs/capitalgames?bid=3&pid=158370

[antigop]

122. Mr. H20 Man, I hope you are right, but....

I just can't get too hopeful about the certainty of Scooter's conviction.

Been down that road too many times before -- only to be greatly disappointed.

I'd like to believe you, but let's just say that I have to wait and see how things unfold.

[H2O Man]

123. That's good.

It is important that everyone look at the case, and evaluate for themselves. And that means not only examining the evidence against Libby -- for we likely all agree he is guilty as charged -- but that we look at the judicial system itself. Over the years, many DUers have pointed to the Iran-Contra scandals as an example of "justice denied." And surely it was! Likewise, many DUers have pointed out that the Watergate scandals led to numerous convictions and the incarceration of White House officials.

In my own case, I have had decades of experience with the judicial system that includes cases on the local, state, and federal level. I have seen the good and the bad potentials realized by our system of justice. And so, I not only understand why people would be suspect of anything that happens in the federal courts -- especially considering the criminal nature not only of this administration, but of the Supreme Court that put Bush & Cheney in office -- but I encourage people to be suspicious. Do not accept anything on face value.

I hope that you stick with the discussions on the "new" Plame Threads. And I thank you for questioning everything.

[antigop]

125. I really do want to believe you, I really do

but let's just say that my experience with the court system will not allow me to become too hopeful.

Thank you for all your insight and info (as well as all the others who provide wonderful insight and dialogue.)

All of you are appreciated.

[Lochloosa]

111. Thanks H2O Man! You are one of the reasons I enjoy DU so much.

:toast: and to all the others here.

[H2O Man]

112. Thank you.

I believe that in the next month or so, DU:GD will be a fun place to be. We have a wonderful collection of people who will be participating on the latest phase of the "Plame Threads." Some are old-timers, others have joined in the discussions in more recent times; together, this group makes for the most interest examinations of the Plame and related scandals found anywhere. These threads provide links to the corporate media, and to other bloggers who are focused on the trial. But, all things considered, I think DU is the place to be.

[generaldemocrat]

114. Why doesn't the CIA "interview" Libby.....

I'm sure he'd confess much quicker? :evilgrin:

[Me.]

116. Following The Policies of Cheney

Why don't we ship the Liar off for rendition and see if they can get the truth out of him?