Slavery apology sparks furor at General Assembly

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Last week, "Deadeye Dick" Cheney opened this year's session in commemoration of the establishment of the first permament colony of English settlers in what is now Virginia in 1607, 400 years ago. This, however, is no time for progress.

Slavery apology sparks furor at General Assembly

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) -- There were furious denunciations in the General Assembly today after a legislator stated that black people "should get over" slavery.

Hanover Delegate Frank Hargrove made the comment about slavery in an interview published today in The Daily Progress of Charlottesville.

In the same interview about whether the state should apologize to the descendants of slaves, Hargrove wondered aloud whether Jews should "apologize for killing Christ."

Alexandria Delegate David Englin, whose Jewish ancestors immigrated from Nazi-occupied Poland, criticized Hargrove's comments today in the House of Delegates. In defending himself, Hargrove told Englin "your skin is a little too thin." Other lawmakers gasped and groaned in disbelief.

Edited to add: link to the interview in the Daily Progress.

Slavery apology opposed

[maveric]

1. "...Jews should "apologize for killing Christ." ??

"sigh"

[Virginia Dare]

3. Somebody's been watching Mel Gibson movies...n/t

[jmowreader]

13. The Jews will admit they did it

Supposedly they crucified Jesus for practicing witchcraft.

[RaleighNCDUer]

56. Wha?

You need a sarcasm thingee here, I think.

Jews did not crucify people - strictly a Roman political form of execution. Besides, if it was the Jews that executed him, they would have waited until after Passover so as to avoid pollution of the holy day - and if the Last Supper was, really, a passover dinner you can see the problem. He would have sat out the holiday in a cell, then been stoned to death.

The Jews did NOT kill Jesus, or anybody else that day.

[happyslug]

90. I should have post 89 here, instead of below.

See my Post 89, I posted it in the wrong spot

[happyslug]

89. Eichmann was Stoned???? I thought he was hanged.

Jewish Law requires Stoning as the method of Execution, but Modern Israel reserves the Death penity for Genocide only and thus the only person executed by Israel (as opposed to killed by assassination which the Israelis have done to others) is Eichmann. I point this out to show that the mere fact Christ was Crucified not stoned did not mean he was executed as violating Roman Law as opposed to Jewish Law. Eichmann was EXECUTED by HANGING, he was NOT Stoned. That does not mean Eichmann was executed for Violating British law (The people who introduced the "Modern" Concept of Hanging into the Middle East). The same with Christ's Execution, the method reflected the politics of the time period NOT who was executing Christ. Thus to understand WHO had Christ executed you MUST look at the Political Situation in Judea at the time of Christ.

As far as the Romans were concern Judea was just a flank on Egypt and had no value in itself. The Romans did not want the Parthenon's to control the area or anyone allied with the Parthenon's, but other than that the Jews were given a free hand in Judea. Now, this changed over time. Herod the Great had been a "Allied King" when he was first made King of Judea, i.e. he had the right to pick his successor as long as that person was acceptable to Rome. Herod's greatest problem was was a known support of Mark Anthony during the Civil War between Anthony and Octavian. While Herod had supported Anthony, Herod had oppose Cleopatra who wanted to Rule Judea herself. This opposition to Cleopatra saved Herod when Octavian defeated Anthony and Cleopatra. Octavian decided in regards to Herod to keep him as King of Judea but as a "Client King" i.e. one whose appointment was made by Rome and who Successor was selected by Rome (Through in Rome's case Herod was given the right to select his own successor, a right as was NOT fully followed by Rome for at Herod's death, Herod Kingdom was divided among three of his grandchildren).

Thus Judea was a Allied Kingdom of Rome, then an Client Kingdom, then divided and the three parts were all Client Kingdoms of Rome. After ten years of Rule, Herod's successor as to Judea Proper was removed (Through Herod of New Testament remained the Ruler of Galilee till after the death of Christ). From about 12 AD, Judea was ruled by a Procurator, or Roman Tax Collector. Such Procurator were of the Equestrian Class (The Roman Middle class, between the Patricians and the Plebeians). The key to being a Equestrian was that a member of the Equestrian Class could NOT command Roman Soldiers (Either Patricians or Plebeians) but could command other Equestrians AND any Axillary (Foreign Mercenaries in the Roman Army) troops. We know from the History we have regarding both the Rule of Pints Pilate and his Predecessor that both of hom were Equestrians and thus NO ROMAN LEGIONARY TROOPS WERE IN JUDEA DURING THIS TIME PERIOD. Just before the Jewish revolt of 70 AD, Rome return Judea to Client King Rule.

Thus at the time of Christ's Execution, Judea was ruled by a Procurator who commanded Non-Roman Troops (Probably Greeks and Jewish Troops). We have no record of any change of the Characteristics of the Troops from the time of Herod the Great till the Revolt of 70 AD, so it can be assume that except for changeover as individual soldiers age, the units stayed about the same. Now Josephus does mention a Story about Pints Pilate and Pilate's plan to move troops from Caesarea to Jerusalem and from Jerusalem to Caesarea on the Coast. This caused a Riot in Jerusalem for the troops coming from Caesarea had standards that were viewed as Idols, while the Troops in Jerusalem did NOT view their Standards as idols. Pilate was also confronted with a scene where the male population appeared in the Caesarea Arena and offered their heads if that was the only way to stop the exchange of troops. This so impressed Pilate that he canceled the Exchange of Troops. The difference in view of the Standards implies that the ones in Caesarea were Greek while the ones in Jerusalem were Jewish. This can NOT be confirmed but it adds to WHAT WAS GOING ON DURING THE TIME OF CHRIST EXECUTION.

A further complication is the "Blood Curse" of Christ after he was whipped. St Augustine called this the Curse on the Jews, but that makes no sense. If Christ was Cursing the Jews, he was Cursing the 12 Apostles, his Mother (Mary is mentioned as being alive at the time of Christ Execution) and the vast majority of his Followers, most of whom were jewish at that time. The better argument is that Christ was condemning the citizens of Jerusalem only with that Curse for it was the Citizens of Jerusalem who under the influence of the High Priests of the Temple who cheered Christ's whipping and later Execution (and opt to take Barabbas over Christ).

At the same time Since Rome did NOT want the Parthenon's to get control over Judea (And this conflict between Parthia and Rome had been going on for about 100 years at the time of Christ's Death). During the early part of the Reign of Herod the Great he had actually lost power by a Judea Civil War where Parthia had supported people oppose to the Rule of Herod the Great. herod the Great had only won back Judea with Roman Help from Mark Anthony and Octavian. During this interlude the Parthians had actually replaced the High Priest of the Temple, who Herod had to replace when Herod again became King of Judea. This was complicated by the fact that While Herod could be King, he did NOT have the right blood line to be High Priest. Thus the High Priest of the Temple had to be someone OTHER THAN A MEMBER OF THE RULING HOUSE. This continued under the Rule of the Roman Peculators, who hand picked the High Priest BUT HAD OT GIVE THEM A WIDE AREA OF AUTHORITY GIVEN THE LIMITED POOL THE HIGH PRIEST COULD BE SELECTED FROM AND THE POLITICS OF THE PRIESTS OF THE TEMPLE.

This was the Political Situation in Judea around 33 AD. You had a Ruler, Pints Pilate, who while in Jerusalem probably had only a handful of personal guards, while the troops in the area were all Jewish. When Pilate and the High Priest agreed, the Jewish troops were reliable (For example the story where Pilate put down a Riot caused by the Priest by having his troops turn in their swords and using clubs instead, a weapon the troops were willing to use against their fellow Jews for no blood was spelled by the hitting of the Club). Pilate also had the co-operation of the High Priest when he sent in Troops to Galilee to put down a revolt about 10 years before Christ Crucification (While unmentioned in the Bible this expedition of Pilate probably resulted in the death of Joseph, Mary's Husband for Pilate killed off most of the Males of Galilee for Revolting against his and the young Herod's rule).

The traditional Christian view of Christ Crucification takes all of the above into Account. Christ is tried by a Court of the Priests of the Temple presided by the High Priest himself. Christ is declared a Heretic for saying he was the Messiah and sentenced to Death. This appears to be a Secret Trial whose result is given to Pilate the next day. Only Pilate, acting within his power of Procurator in that he had all of the power as a "king of the Jews", had the "RIGHT" to execute Christ. Apparently Pilate was already planning to kill two other people that day (Tradition says for Thief, but more likely for what we would call "Terrorism" or "Revolutionary Activities" today). Christ had raised Lazarus from the dead the Week before so was popular among the people, so the priest class wanted the Romans to execute Christ for calling himself "King of the Jews". The Story of Pilate in the New Testament is one of him trying to find a way NOT to execute a man who is NOT A THREAT TO ROME, while at the same time trying to avoid a Riot the Priest could cause for the Priest Class Controlled the mob of Jerusalem. Thus the washing of his hands, saying he is doing this NOT by his own orders but to keep order. Pilate's Whipping of Christ hopping that would satisfy the Mob. None of this worked so Pilate had Christ Executed. Pilate then did a dig at the Priests when he posted above Christ's head on the Cross the phase (In Greek, Latin and Aramaic) "Here lay the King of the Jews". There was a Roman tradition that anyone executed had to have such a head post, the Priest protested the sign, but Pilate said the statement will be on the post. I have always said this was Pilate's dig at the priest for forcing him to execute whom Pilate considered innocent.

Thus the Traditional Christan View of WHO EXECUTED CHRIST. That view is WE ALL DID for if Christ Death was to redeem Original Sin and he was Killed only by the Jews, only the Jews would be Redeemed. That is NOT the Traditional Christian view. Christ was tried by Jews, his execution was ordered by a Roman and the actual Execution was probably done by Greeks. In the First Century AD you could not get more cosmopolitan than that outside of Rome Itself and thus all of mankind had a hand in Christ Execution.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Hey, why not an apology? Virginia apologized for using its

governmental powers to take control over certain citizens, sterilize them without their consent, and then not tell these unfortunate people what it did to them FOR DECADES.

[Virginia Dare]

4. Oh, those wacky racist misogynistic fundies down in Richmond...

what will those joy boys say next? :puke:

[seabeyond]

6. as the acids in my tummy was rising..... your post

brought it to the place it belongs. yes

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. There is precident for government apologizing

The US government apologized to Japanese Americans for their internments during WWII, and the Colony of Massachusetts apologized to the families of those who had been condemned as witches in Salem.

[BayCityProgressive]

7. disgusting.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

10. I don't quite understand

Are you saying it is disgusting that the US apologized to the Japanese or that the Massachusetts Bay Colonial Government apologized to the families of the victims of the witch hysteria? In the latter case, it was done in the early 1700s, and also involved a certain amount of restitution to the families, as the families were required to pay money to the jailers to feed their loved ones. I know, because I'm a direct descendant of one of the victims who died in jail before she could be executed.

[BayCityProgressive]

40. I was saying it

to the original post.

[marshall]

98. My Jewish ancestors were driven out of Spain

During the inquisition they had to flee to Italy, and finally were taken in by Henry VIII who used them for their musical talent. When are we going to get an apology from the Spanish government?

It's been a long wait.

[rpgamerd00d]

8. Sorry, guys, I agree 100% with Hargrove.

I was not born when American's enslaved Africans.
It wasn't my decision.
It wasn't my complicity.
It wasn't my inaction.
It had nothing to do with me whatsoever.

I don't mind saying "I feel sympathy and compassion for our American ancestors who had to suffer as slaves."

But there is no fucking goddamn way I will EVER fucking say "I apologize for slavery."

It fucking has NOTHING to do with ME *AT ALL* PERIOD.

The very notion is FUCKING LUDICROUS.

[Tempest]

21. Hargrove didn't say anything about apologizing for slavery as you contend

Hargrove said they should ""should get over" slavery.

Hargrove is asking America to forget all about its darker side of the past.

[rpgamerd00d]

24. Well, that is pretty rude, but he has a totally valid point.

I'm pretty sure no ex-slaves are alive today. If I'm wrong, lemme know.
Given that, there is no one that requires any apology.

If you, of YOUR OWN FREE WILL, choose to identify yourself as a slave descendant, that is YOUR CHOICE. You are purposefully MAKING YOURSELF a victim. In that regard, you need to "get over it." He is right on the money here.

There does not exist an African American that has suffered slavery. Other injustices? Sure. But not slavery.
There are no proposed amendments to the Constitution to bring back slavery.
There are no discussions about bringing back slavery.
There are no organizations that advocate the return of slavery.

Slavery in the USA is a dead horse. Its gone. Kaput. Never coming back. Its a Non-Issue.
No current politician was responsible for slavery. Certainly, none of them need to be told that an apology is owed by the state/govt for slavery.

Its nonsense, and anyone who is suggesting this nonsense needs to "get over it".

Like I said, I agree with him 100%. But he should have known better to say something rude, he should know he'd get called on it.

[Virginia Dare]

32. I disagree, I don't think we should "get over it"...

I think we should be very open about how and why this country was founded. Forget all the flowery feel-good history lessons about people escaping tyranny and religious persecution. Sure, there were a number of people who came here for those reasons, but the whole premise behind founding the new world, particularly in Virginia was TO GET RICH. And lots of people did, on the backs of slaves, both white and black. Let's enter this into the official record, let's continue to talk and be open about it. But let's never GET OVER IT.

[rpgamerd00d]

36. 100% wrong. People have no merit claiming this issue.

All slaves are dead.
No one is being negatively affected by the lack of an apology, nor would anyone be positively affected by one.

Its just 100% bullshit.

[Virginia Dare]

39. How can you speak for everyone?

I for one would be affected positively by an official admission that a profound wrong was done to a group of human beings and citizens of this country. I think that would be a good thing for my state and for my country. So don't presume to know how something would affect or not affect everyone just because of your own opinion.

[rpgamerd00d]

42. What?! How can ANYONE speak for dead people! Its insane!

If people want to honor the memory of slaves, or honor their descendants, then FINE, dedicate a wing of a library or hold a vigil or something.

But that is NOT what this is.

This is a bullshit piece of LEGISLATION, MANDATING that an ENTIRE STATE FULL OF PEOPLE THAT WEREN'T BORN YET must OFFICIALLY APOLOGIZE for a whole bunch of DEAD PEOPLE that upheld the horrible act of enslavement.

That is 100% BULLSHIT. And I can't believe anyone would remotely side with the bullshitters that created this piece of nonsense.

[Virginia Dare]

48. Again, you confuse "people" with "society"...n/t

[rpgamerd00d]

52. Society is made up of people. You can't separate them.

This is a bill, introduced in the year 2007, to get the State to issue an apology to people who are descended from slaves, on behalf of dead people.

You don't see that as a complete waste of money, time and resources?

Leave the Symbolic Gestures to private institutions, or if warranted, the Federal Government can declare a National Day in honor of the issue.

I do not want my state or federal politicians wasting valuable session time on bullshit issues, I want them fixing the REAL PROBLEMS for REAL AMERICANS that are actually ALIVE TODAY.

[fishwax]

80. you can't draw distinctions between "society" and an individual person?

That's an absurd assertion.

[Karenina]

53. How about those Germans, eh?

[malaise]

44. In 100 years no doubt the US government will

apologize for the genocide in Iraq. No doubt there will be people who refuse to accept blame or support reparations. Life is a double whammy for victims and their descendants.

[shanti]

47. exactly!

^5!

[swimboy]

99. OMG! You're right! It's like slavery NEVER EVEN HAPPENED!

All it took was the Emancipation Proclamation and there has been happiness and harmony between the races in the U.S. ever since. It's like some sort of magical Utopia!

:sarcasm:

[SmokingJacket]

105. It might be meaningless for an individual to apologize, but it's

not the same for a STATE to apologize. I know, a technicality -- but look, the state of Virginia (and my own ancestors among them) profited greatly from slavery. It makes perfect sense for state to apologize, or for individuals on behalf of the state to apologize.

It wasn't that long ago. I'm young(ish) and my own father knew people who saw Lincoln's funeral train go by.

[Virginia Dare]

25. Nobody is asking you personally to apologize..

as in fact there is nobody alive today who is directly responsible for slavery in this country. Obscene profits were made at the expense of humanity.

The fact of the matter is that this country, and Virginia in particular, was built on the backs of slaves. We need to recognize this, and as a state and as a society officially admit that it was wrong.

It actually has to do with none of us, and at the same time, it has to do with all of us.

[rpgamerd00d]

30. Its a bullshit issue, and it should be tabled and killed.

It serves no purpose.
There is no one that needs to "heal" from this, since there are no people alive that were "hurt" by slavery.

Its just 100% bullshit, period.

[Virginia Dare]

41. So we are 100% completely healed from all

racial injustice in this country? That's good to know.

[Name removed]

43. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Virginia Dare]

50. In this country, it has everything to do with it...

especially in Virginia.

[shanti]

49. why?

just because YOU don't feel that "anyone" needs to heal from this?? wow, the insensitivity is breathtaking.

[rpgamerd00d]

54. That is nonsense.

If you need to heal, then heal. If you don't, don't.

I could care less if someone in the year 2007 makes THEMSELVES a victim of Slavery.
I know its bullshit, because there is no slavery, and no one alive to day is a victim of slavery.
Someone presenting a BILL to a State Legislature requiring action on this nonsense issue is a waste of time, money and resources.

[shanti]

94. you just don't get it

and i'm not going to waste any more of my time. mighty white of you...

[Bridget Burke]

28. Hargrove was not speaking as a private citizen....

He's a member of the Virginia General Assembly--an institution that's proudly existed since 1619.

http://legis.state.va.us/cit_guide/gen_assem/cit_welcome.html

[fishwax]

82. good point ... that adds perspective n/t

[JerseygirlCT]

29. It's actually not ludicrous at all

You have probably benefited from the social structure put in place by institutionalizing racism. You may not even realize how you have, but I assure you, you have.

My relatives are newcomers, too. The earliest I can trace is in the late 1800s. I could claim "potatoe famine!" and say it's not my fault as well. But the fact is that racism is still a part of our society. And so long as it is, we are ALL responsible.

Are you personally at fault? Of course not. Presumably very few people alive today are. But we are, every one of us, part of this government. This government that sanctioned slavery, and that still has not uprooted racism entirely.

[rpgamerd00d]

33. I said my piece above on why this is 100% BS.

[Bill McBlueState]

45. you're confused.

You think they're talking about individuals issuing apologies.

The issue is whether the state of Virginia, which has been in existence since well before the end of slavery, should issue an official apology.

Why does this have to be so strongly about you, with the "It fucking has NOTHING to do with ME *AT ALL* PERIOD."

It's not about you.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

46. I see it differently

not because any of my ancestors had African American slaves (though one had a Native American slave in the 1600s)--in fact, one great great grandfather lost his health and wealth fighting for the Union and abolition. But I can still apologize for slavery, if that will help the descendants of those slaves realize that they have, indeed, overcome and triumphed over that enslavement.

[rpgamerd00d]

55. Do you know what that is? Its called "victim mentality".

I should know, I used to have victim mentality.

No one today can claim "that they have, indeed, overcome and triumphed over that enslavement" unless they first adopt a victim mentality.
"Oh woe is me, I'm the descendant of a slave. You should apologize to me so I can be vindicated on my success as an individual."

That is crap, and it harms not only that person, but it harms society as a whole. It teaches our children that any time you feel like the world is unfair, you can play the victim and gain some benefit.

The LAST THING a Black American Slave-Descendant should be advocating is this bill. It is degrading to them, and to all of us.

[Brewman_Jax]

60. You don't get to tell anyone else

how they are supposed to feel about it. Speak for yourself.

What's this "it harms society..." BS? It's about time society faces its sordid past, fess up, and start living up to its ideals. It is supposed to be the 21st century.

[rpgamerd00d]

63. I dont have a sordid past, thank you very much.

My past is 100% clean, and I've lived my life to my ideals, which happen to be pretty damn liberal.

Why am I (as a member of "society") being told that I have a sordid past that we (as members of society) have to apologize for?

Why is this wasting time, money and resources of a state legislature that has REAL PEOPLE to help with REAL LEGISLATION ?

[Brewman_Jax]

72. You're society now...?

which is it, you taking responsibility, too?

[rpgamerd00d]

74. Why won't you answer the questions I ask?

[Brewman_Jax]

76. You doth protest too much

for something that in your words is a BS issue.

When you ask coherent questions, you get coherent answers.

[rpgamerd00d]

77. I asked 3 times, here it is again.

How do you justify wasting time, money and resources of a state legislature that has REAL PEOPLE to help with REAL LEGISLATION, to address this complete and total piece of nonsense that has no effect on anyone materially ?

[NorthernSpy]

71. when are you going to call for for abolishing Pearl Harbor Day?

The slave trade lasted a lot longer than the Pearl Harbor attacks, and took more lives. Yet I don't recall you demanding that we stop commemorating the bombing of Pearl Harbor.

Perhaps only some people have to "get over it"...


:eyes:

[rpgamerd00d]

73. I am all for commemorating it, I even said so in another post.

Evidently, you didn't bother to read it.

This isn't a commemoration. This is a bill forcing an apology. Its different, and you need to read the whole thread before you reply again.

[fishwax]

83. There is no bill forcing an apology

Because (a) it's a resolution, not a bill, and (b) it is a statement of atonement by the general assembly--it "forces" nothing on anyone.

[NorthernSpy]

87. weren't you the one sermonizing about the evils of the "victim mentality"?

Get over it, you say?

You first.

Write to the Government of Japan, and tell them that they don't owe us an apology.

[rpgamerd00d]

88. They dont.

[NorthernSpy]

101. LOL! Now, please go and notify the American Legion of this...

... in person.


Or, for a safer pasttime, keep posting anonymous dictats to blacks re which thoughts and emotions they are not to have, per you.


:rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

59. You, as a person, are not being asked to.

We, as a nation, must.

[Der Blaue Engel]

62. I have to wonder why you're so defensive about this issue

Or maybe I should say offensive. Having an opinion about it is one thing, but the amount of foaming and cursing you're doing tells me something about you.

[rpgamerd00d]

65. Because this is one of those bullshit issues the Repukes bash us over the head with election time.

We need to stop with these bullshit issues as a party, and address REAL ISSUES.

I am pissed because these are EXACTLY the kinds of issues that LOSE US ELECTIONS, and I am GODDAMN TIRED of losing.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

86. Really?

We lose elections because black people are upset about slavery?

:rofl:

[Leopolds Ghost]

102. "Black" issues are what lose us elections? So LBJ, Nixon, Reagan were right

When they predicted that racism would be the foundation for political resentment in the US and fuel Republicans for years to come.

[Madspirit]

67. RO

Right On. I wondered the same thing about his extreme defensiveness and offensiveness. When people are that angry and defensive...something is going on.
Madspirit

[Richard Steele]

100. Hardly surprising, coming from the guy who says "common sense is rare at DU".

[Kerrytravelers]

103. Yes, I've been privy to some of this "common sense" today.

Let me tell you, Block is your friend here at DU.

It's like a nice dinner mint or a cup of hot coffee while eating a warm apple pie on a cold winter's day by the fire.

[undergroundpanther]

9. Like I said before

Anyone saying someone else's skin is too thin is basically telling the sensitive person STOP FEELING. STOP saying (the offender) is offensive.
It is a veiled threat a way of saying you better not express your pain, outrage, accusations, emotions or justified anger you sensitives that feel hurt by the deeds of greedy brutal people better take what (the bullies..a.k.a"leaders") dish out and shut up. This kind of crap is a roundabout way of re-victimization of victims.

It's bully bullshit is a tactic to make america an unfeeling, uncaring, insensitive basically sociopathic country, in the image of the powerful who got there by hardening their hearts and killing their own conscience. If you are one of the few assholes whom have built your secure lofty place in this empire of shit on the work,neglect, servitude, manipulation, capture,enslavement, killing, and theft from others,and you feel no remorse for what happened in this country to black people native americans or those of mixed race,YOU are not sensitive ENOUGH to be trusted with power.

Some people in this government are emotionally about as mature as two year olds with machetes,and they are like smart untrained dogs they still shit in the house but are devious enough to try to conceal their shitty souls from the most public places it would be unacceptable ,so they don't get sent to the pound(jail), they hide it,until one day a turd slips out and the public sees that mask of sanity on these sociopaths wear slide down a little to reveal what they ARE..And it is PUTRID.

WE all NEED to cultivate MORE SENSITIVITY, in this country, We need to learn to CARE,to share, to Remember, empathize, and have the fortitude to tell those wishing us to become "thick skinned"cold hearted people to grow a HEART that can handle pumping warm blood instead of cold crocodile tears and admit that certain things certain so called "leaders" and elitists have done was WRONG,and how they THINK is toxic,and morally wrong..

Make them own what they cause and say and FEEL that shame of being WRONG... Hopefully these thugs will get insight into WHY they are hated,and why they wear that mask and need P.R. teams to pretty up the PIGS that they ARE..Why they cannot say what they are when what they ARE is hated by everyone not like themselves. The rich the white the dominant ones the "fortunate" among us need to face the shame and blight they do or contribute to blithely So they and this country can begin to heal and grow into a nation of better sorts of human beings! It cannot happen until the IN-SENSITIVES among us wherever they are are told they NEED to shed their thick skins and character armor and feel. Feel the shame.

[Virginia Dare]

35. Thank you, very well said...n/t

[PreacherCasey]

64. Wonderful point. This is the fundamental issue at play in the world.

Take this bs "surge", for instance. It is just another way of saying that the only way America will choose to "solve" its problems (many self-imposed btw) is through the use of AGGRESSION AND VIOLENCE. No compassion, no empathy, just flexing of muscles. There's obviously no time for diplomacy and humanitarian intervention in the ME (that, of course, would be silly). There is ONLY time for the escalation of hostilities and time for building PERMANENT MILITARY BASES AND THE LARGEST EMBASSY ON THE PLANET on Iraqi soil. Basically their plan boils down to, "If we kill enough of the opposition, get hold of their only real natural resource, and control the rest through pressure on their US proxy governments we'll be able to bring "peace" to the region.

Feel free to substitute the words "US domination" for "peace" in the above paragraph as this administration has proven that they are interchangeable concepts.

bleh.

[BlooInBloo]

11. (shrug) It's just how white folks feel about it. Nothing to be surprised about.

EDIT: The (all white) jury has been in for a looooooong time: America does not owe black folks a damn thing.

They're wrong, of course, and evil for believing it. That doesn't change the fact of the matter, unfortunately.

[undergroundpanther]

15. War spoils

The dominant class needs to become SENSITIZED or it will go extinct and take the planet down with it.
Might does not make right and white folks better get with it.Might makes right is destroying us all. If they cannot stop by themselves and sensitize themselves they must BE stopped.
Some people ARE morally inferior, too bad that is the type of asshole that runs the places of power these days.

[BlooInBloo]

17. What you said.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

16. you are calling me evil for not wanting the pay reparations?

you are calling me evil for something i will not apologize for that i had nothing to do with? you know, there are some blacks that don't want/need reparations either...

you calling me evil?

sP

[BlooInBloo]

20. Shhh.... here's a red bouncy ball for you to play with...

... Nobody (but you) is talking about YOU apologizing. People are talking about AMERICA (which DID do something wrong) or various STATES (which DID do things wrong) apologizing. Lots of people of a certain sort mendaciously pretend to not understand the distinction, of course.

Look! It goes bouncybouncybouncy! Fun, huh?

[undergroundpanther]

27. Depends

Do you run a big corporation and own a huge amount of wealth you inherited from your forefathers? How did THEY get that wealth and position? If it was built on the backs of slaves if you trace the lineage back you OWE at least an apology. You see some corporations in this country would not be the monsters they are today if they had not exploited other human beings during slavery. Every corporation owes it's existence to people who are forced to be dependant upon wages to survive. The system we live under is the biggest scam ever.

But besides that the act of being a corporate thug finds slave labor is profitable. This is why they whine about raising minimum wage..seek prison labor and slaves in china or immigrants who will work for free or less than Americans do..The rich WANT desperate people for desperate people sell their lives and labor for less and that means more for the piggies at the top..An Apology for slavery has a social effect,these piggies never want us to be too aware of,for it opens the can of worms that this nation likes to pretend is not there anymore,human exploitation of the many by a few.And it shows how ugly the ways were and how it relates to issues now of immigration,minimum wage,benefits,and outsourcing. It makes the piggies admit that chattel slavery back than and wage slavery now is what made the top one per-centers so wealthy now. It gets people to look at how they are being exploited and it gets people who never stop to think about their lives being used up to become SENSITIZED about the ugly unjust exploitation of of people this profit system does that keeps the few in total comfort,leisure, good health, and secure at the expense of many others lives ,health, sanity and yes,freedom.. You may not be evil. but the SYSTEM of exploitation this country has been founded upon IS.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tkmorris]

57. "White folks"?

As in, ALL white folks?

Your comments are less offensive than those made by the subject of the OP merely in their scale. You seem to have judged an entire group of people based on the color of their skin. Pretty ironic don't you think?

[BlooInBloo]

58. Not as ironic as white folks whining about "reverse racism".

[WritersBlock]

69. "It's just how white folks are." eh????

A colleague once told me that I owed her for 400 years of opression.

Me. Personally. Owed her.

Not the state; not the government.

Me. Personally. Owed. Her.

She knew nothing about my family. She didn't know that my grandparents and great-grandparents were sharecroppers, and I'm talking dirt poor sharecroppers.

She just assumed, because I was white and she was black, that I was personally responsible for the way her ancestors were treated.

[BlooInBloo]

75. lol!

[GOTV]

61. Without getting into the rightness or wrongness of an apology...

... do you have any specific corporations in mind, or was that just a hypothetical.

[Marrah_G]

97. Just how white folks feel about it?

here's a big "screw you" from a "white folk". Bigotry isn't limited to white people and nor do all "white folks" feel the same about every issue. You want people to be sensitive to other people? start by not judging others by the color of thier skin.

Racism is racism is racism.

[geardaddy]

12. What an insensitive prig.

It would be an interesting question though if any other countries have apologized for having slavery? The UK? France? Spain? Portugal?

[undergroundpanther]

18. If America wants to fancy itself

Morally superior it better start acting like it ..Regardless of what other countries do or don't do.

[geardaddy]

22. I agree that we definitely could stand to be the "bigger person" by apologizing.

I was just wondering if any other of the former slave legal countries have apologized. That's all.

[geardaddy]

34. Here's a link about slavery apologies from former slave-trading countries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_slave_trade#Apologies

[RaleighNCDUer]

68. United Kingdom, Spain, Netherlands, Portugal, and the United States blocked attempts to do so.

Reckon we haven't finished exploiting Africa yet...

[SaveElmer]

14. Hargrove should apologize for being such a dumbass...

Redneck, racist, sack of liquid crap...

[Rex]

19. But I thought the Jews were supposed to 'kill' Christ as per God's plan?

What? Was Jesus supposed to live? I missed that memo.

[geardaddy]

23. But didn't the Romans technically kill Christ?

So, should the Italians apologize?

[Rex]

26. Technically yes.

The Pope should apologize for killing Jesus Christ! :crazy:

[geardaddy]

31. Ahhh, but the Pope is German!

;) He's off the hook!

[Rex]

37. LOL!

Good point, but he is stuck in Vatican City which is surrounded by those evil, Christ killing Italians so...when in Rome. :P

[geardaddy]

51. hehe

;)

[Madspirit]

66. unlevel

As long as white people benefit from this very UNLEVEL playing field we all live in, we should be sorry. We should be very sorry. This country was built with the labor of stolen people on the backs of the native peoples. ...and NO white person can say they don't benefit from that.
We have a lot to make up for. ...and these are lessons we should never forget.
Madspirit

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

70. The effects of slavery are still with us.

All one has to do is look at the still prevalent racism that exists. No longer the "nigger!", in your face, "whites only", racism. But, the subtle and acceptable racism that still places African-Americans in the underclass where they are expected to "pull themselves up by the bootstraps". That, despite the fact that whites still exert all the power in this country and discrimination still exists in the minds of most white Americans.

Hell, even in "liberal" Portland, OR the police have admitted that they practice racial profiling by stopping something like 20 times as many blacks while the whites stopped are 3 times as likely to have committed a crime.

[RaleighNCDUer]

92. Case in point:

Was watching "Back to the Future: Pt 2" tonight and saw something that just astounded me - in this harmless fun family movie --

Marty goes back to the present from the future, and sneaks into his house through the bedroom window, only to find a black girl there. She screams, her father bursts in, chases him around the room with a baseball bat and out of the house. Marty flees out onto the street, to find that the 1985 he returned to was changed, and his bland, middle-class subdivision has been transformed into a crime-ridden black neighborhood.

The movie, and its audience, just accepts that as a neighborhood goes bad, it will become a crime-ridden black neighborhood.

That's called institutional racism. So pervasive that even someone as consciously liberal as myself did not recognise it until the, what, 5th viewing of the move.

I apologise.

[NorthernSpy]

78. Hell, let's ALL get over it! No more Pearl Harbor Day! No pestering Japan for an apology!

It's only fair. If America needn't apologize for slavery, no one need apologize to anyone for anything.


And that little crack about Jews killing Christ: could it be that Mel Gibson's tiresome movie really did bring doctrinal anti-Semitism back from the dead?

:puke:

[geardaddy]

79. The Japanese refuse to apologize for anything they did in WWII

especially the "Rape of Nanking" and the 30 million other Asians that they murdered. Just sayin'

[NorthernSpy]

81. yeah, and lots of people think they SHOULD apologize...

... likely including some who scoff at the notion of an apology for slavery.

Everyone wants to receive an apology; no one wants to make one.

[Burma Jones]

84. Well, yeah, we all need to get over slavery

but you can't do so without acknowledging it was evil - not some sort of regrettable mistake - but inherently morally reprehensible. Acknowledgment that slavery was evil would suggest that the Confederacy was evil. There are many people that think the African Americans whose ancestors were brought here to be slaves are better off for it. There are other, equally sick and sad rationalizations to excuse slavery. I understand why the descendants of slaves would bristle at these rationalizations to this day. So, the reason for apologizing to the descendants is to fess up that the Confederacy was NOT noble, but morally reprehensible. Try selling that down in Virginia.....And that's why we all are not "over" slavery.

As far as the whole "who killed Christ" thing is concerned, I believe, per dogma, it was all of us that required his death and it was the Romans that carried out God's will.

[RaleighNCDUer]

93. All of us required his death?

Including those who were dropping criminals into Belgian bogs in the name of Odin at the time? Wha'd they have to do with it?

[Burma Jones]

96. Well, I said per dogma.........

You will have to take that up with Billy Graham and the Pope

[fishwax]

85. Here's a link to the text of the resolution in question

http://www.richmondsunlight.com/bill/2007/sj332/fulltext/

Highlights include:

WHEREAS, in the Commonwealth, home to the first African slaves, the vestiges of slavery are ever before African American citizens, from the overt racism of hate groups to the subtle racism encountered when requesting health care, transacting business, buying a home, seeking quality public education and college admission, and enduring pretextual traffic stops and other indignities; and

WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans; and

WHEREAS, an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help African American and white citizens confront the ghosts of their collective pasts together

Also, a nice turn by which the author quotes the boy king. How will those hard-core supporters decide between their denial of slavery's continued effects on one hand, and the words of god's chosen leader on the other:

WHEREAS, in 2003, during a trip to Goree Island, Senegal, a former slave port, President George W. Bush stated, "Slavery is one of the greatest crimes of history, and its legacy still vexes the United States ... Small men took on the powers and airs of tyrants and masters. Years of unpunished brutality and bullying and rape produced a dullness and hardness of conscience. Christian men and women became blind to the clearest commands of their faith and added hypocrisy to injustice. While physical slavery is dead, the legacy is alive. My nation's journey toward justice has not been easy, and it is not over. For racial bigotry fed by slavery did not end with slavery or with segregation ... and many of the issues that still trouble America have roots in the bitter experience of other times ... But however long the journey, our destiny is set: liberty and justice for all"

[Bucky]

91. I assume alcohol was involved.

[Kerrytravelers]

104. Isn't it always when retuhgs are involved?

Racism. Seducing teens. You know, the typical day-in and day-out stuff.

[ContraBass Black]

95. When I attempt to load the first link, I lose my ability to load web pages

Until I restart my computer.