I'm sorry, but I think KO was wrong on the subject of 24 tonight

[Pawel K]

I will start off and say that I am probably a bit biased because I absolutely love 24. I started watching last season and have watched every season since including all the previous 4 episodes of the new season.

But...

Keith's entire premise for his segment about 24 tonight was that this show was some how designed to promote the Bush doctrine of fear. I have a real problem with this premise because the first 13 episodes of 24 were created months before 9/11 happened. This would also mean that the last 11 episodes of that first season were also written long before 9/11.

Now lets look at some other things. "President" Wayne Palmer was probably the biggest hero in this entire series outside of Jack Bauer, yet he was clearly identified as a democrat.

In the second season of the show Wayne Palmer goes against rushing to war with a country until all the evidance of that countries involvement in terror attacks could be verified. It turns out that in the end the country was innocent and a huge war was avoided. Granted, this season was written before Iraq but it aired during Bush's brain washing of american people to get us into a war in Iraq (Spet 2002 - May 2003).

Last season, while our entire government was controlled by republicans, the new president of 24 turned out to be a cronie of an organization responsible for all the terror attacks of that season. It wasn't muslims that were the enemy, it was the president that was the enemy. On top of that he was a total idiot.

I don't look at this as a political show, I look at this as a good show. Simple as that. I do understand what Keith was saying but I just can't agree with it since I have watched every episode of this show that has ever been released. On top of that a lot of idiotic republicans will use this to try and promote their agenda, but that's what they are, idiots so you really shouldn't take anything they say seriously.

*Puts on flame suit*

[mdmc]

1. all I know is Rush loves the show

I am a comedy fan myself, and have never watched it.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

23. Rush liking a show is not a good reason to hate it.

It's too cerebral for him to get it. He just likes the explosions and the violence. There is more to it than that.
Duckie

[Captain Hilts]

36. So does liberal Tony Kornheiser. So do my liberal friends. nt

[ProfessorGAC]

102. Two Of My Friends As Well

They're nuts about the show and they're as or more liberal than 99% of the folks here. So, Rush liking it has nothing to do with nothing!
The Professor

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

2. I Agree With Ya.

It's just a show, and a damn good one at that. Didn't catch K.O. tonight though so I can't really comment much on his reaction about it.

[tridim]

20. It's just a show, but..

Millions of Americans (and I assume millions of viewers) consciously choose to live in "reality" where someone like Bush is considered a super hero. These people are the target audience, not you. To thinking people like yourself it's just a show, to them it's pure RW/xenophobic propaganda.

[Kermitt Gribble]

38. Exactly!

A local radio talk show host here uses audio clips from 24 to make up the majority of his show. He uses it to justify the "war on terror", Iraq and everything in between and a chorus of right-wing 24 fans call in to agree with him. The guy isn't very bright, if you couldn't have guessed.
I've only watched the show a few times but thought is was good.

[Beaverhausen]

3. Are you aware that the producers of the show are buddies with Limbaugh?

Very good buddies. They were with him in the Dominican Republic.

Sorry, guilt by association.

I've never seen the show but I met Keifer once. Very nice guy.

[Pawel K]

5. Keifer is the main producer, I have not seen this link

got any more info on it?

[Beaverhausen]

9. that took 5 seconds on google

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0706062rush1.html

[Pawel K]

13. I dont see his name on there

[Beaverhausen]

19. Can't you read?

JULY 6--Rush Limbaugh was traveling with four other men--including the producers of the hit show "24"--when he was detained over a mislabeled bottle of Viagra found in his luggage during a Customs search. A Department of Homeland security passenger manifest shows that Limbaugh and his four buddies flew from the Dominican Republic on a Gulfstream IV jet owned by Premiere Radio Networks, which syndicates his radio program. Limbaugh returned to Palm Beach, Florida on June 26 with Joel Surnow, "24"'s co-creator and executive producer and Howard Gordon, another of the Fox hit's executive producers (Hollywood agent Jeffrey Benson was also part of the Limbaugh quintet). With all those guys in tow, it is unclear what Limbaugh needed with those 29 100mg Viagra pills.

*************

see the list of "24s" producers here
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0285331/fullcredits

sorry to burst your bubble.

[Pawel K]

25. I can read

First off cut it out with the attitude.

You are having trouble reading what I am saying. Kiefer Sutherland is the main producer of that show. I believe he is not only a socialist but he was not in that car with Rush. This was my point.

[Beaverhausen]

28. No, he isn't the 'main' producer

see the link I added to my post. That show has tons of producers. Rush hangs with two of the original producers and writers.

[nonconformist]

105. Keifer is the Executive Producer. nt

[Beaverhausen]

108. Limbaugh's buddies are also executive producers

Keifer is AN execitive producer, not THE executive producer.

Hey, watch the show if you want. I don't care. Just be clear on who is producing/writing it.

[evlbstrd]

18. Isn't Keifer a Socialist?

The ramifications of torture are a big part of the new season.

[Beaverhausen]

26. He bought me a drink. Does that make him a socialist?

I didn't talk to him about it and I never watch that show.

[IntravenousDemilo]

43. See my avatar?

It's Tommy Douglas, father of universal medical care, old-age pensions, Canada's first provincial human rights act, and a host of other social programs that are a core part of the Canadian psyche. He was the socialist premier of Saskatchewan when I was born there (I was named after him, BTW), and after that, the first leader of the federal New Democratic Party. Recently he was voted the Greatest Canadian in a CBC poll conducted over the course of several months, beating out such people as Pierre Trudeau and Terry Fox. His daughter, socialist activist and actor Shirley Douglas, married noted left-winger and actor Donald Sutherland, and they produced Kiefer William Frederick Dempsey George Rufus Sutherland. Kiefer was raised mostly by his mother and idolized (and still idolizes) his grandfather.

I'd say his socialist bona fides are intact, even if he is filthy rich now.

Hell, I'd even venture to say that there's a streak of socialism in Jack Bauer, too, since he's repeatedly shown himself willing to sacrifice himself in order to save others. Or maybe he's just a Vulcan ("the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few"). Or maybe Vulcans are socialists.

[enigmatic]

75. I love having somebody else w/ Tommy's avatar on DU

I'm going to make up a couple of more to use; I'll pm you when I get them done:thumbsup:

[IntravenousDemilo]

87. Yummy! And thanks for this one. n/m

[evlbstrd]

56. That'd be good enough for me.

But I'm pretty easy.
He pretty much said so in an interview with Charlie Rose last week:
http://www.charlierose.com/

And, rom an interview in Men's Vogue:


Sutherland is currently shooting "Day Six," which takes up with Bauer's imprisonment on a slow boat to China. More than ever, the actor believes this season's episodes will make a powerful argument about the state of the union, with Bauer as a target of his own country's law enforcers. "The writers are not all Democrats and not all Republicans, but they manage to get through all the crap to a consensus," he says. "This time it is a very interesting statement of what we are prepared to allow to happen. I don't mean in going to war, but in standing up for your principles and ideals."
This kind of engagement, it seems, is of critical importance to Sutherland because he is still trying to live up to his family. Not to his famous father, these days, but more to his mother, the actress Shirley Douglas, and his grandfather. The firebrand architect of Canada's health care system, a mesmerizing orator, and a great man of the people, Tommy Douglas was recently voted the Greatest Canadian of All Time by more than a million people in a nationwide poll. He, and not the actor's mostly absent dad—who split from Shirley Douglas when Kiefer was three—was the formative male influence in his childhood.
"When people talk about me living up to my dad, it is about acting, really. They don't know him beyond that. With my grandfather, that's another thing. He was one of those rare people who not only had the passion and conviction to change things for the better, but he also could take people with him." I had read a bit about Tommy Douglas before meeting Sutherland and quote a couple of his famous lines: "I don't mind being a symbol but I don't want to become a monument. I've seen what the pigeons do to monuments . . ." The grandson smiles. "I have tried to take all of that in, of course," he says. "There are days I can feel him smiling down at me, saying, 'You are doing all right.' There are other days when I can hear him saying, 'Boy, that was bad.' "

[YellowRubberDuckie]

63. Kiefer is just the coolest.

[evlbstrd]

70. I think so, too.

And his dad is one of my favorite actors, period.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

71. His dad is an egomaniacal prick...

but the man CAN act.
Duckie

[evlbstrd]

74. That often goes with the territory.

And, yes, he can.

[cascadiance]

64. I think his father made a pretty strong negative case against fascism

with his portrayal of one of the brown shirts in the movie 1900, Sergio Leone's epic study of Italy's evolution into fascism during the early part of the 20th century. He really played a pretty nasty guy in that!

[evlbstrd]

72. Have you seen "Eye of the Needle?"

He's pretty nasty in that, too.
Then, there's M*A*S*H.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

27. That's what I thought.

Keifer is not leaving the show in the hands of republicans to kiss ass.
Duckie

[evlbstrd]

59. I remembered reading it a while back.

Then he was on Charlie Rose last Friday. See post 56.

[cascadiance]

55. He does champion Fahrenheit 9/11 and Michael Moore on the Doc channel...

If you ever tune into the Documentary Channel, every once in a while they have a promo or two in between the shows, and one of them features a segment with a lot of dialogue for Kiefer Sutherland who is quoted as liking how Michael Moore has helped bring back the documentary genre's popularity. I don't think he'd say that if he was a Rush drone.

[evlbstrd]

60. He is a leftie.

He doesn't talk about it a lot, but has said so. It runs in the family.
See post 56.

[eleny]

4. "the first 13 episodes of 24 were created months before 9/11 happened"

Hmmmmm..... Now that's something to think about. I guess it depends on who you believe concocted 9/11.

[Pawel K]

7. You are kidding, right?

Please, for the sake of humanity, tell me you are kidding.

[eleny]

8. Calm down

Edit: For the sake of humanity, that is. :rofl:

[Pawel K]

10. I'm just making sure you are kidding

sarcasm tag would be nice.

[eleny]

12. I wasn't kidding

:tinfoilhat:

[joeunderdog]

103. Good cuz it ain't funny.

There's no happenstance to the perfect storm of fear which has propelled the RW militant platform of the Neocons. The first order of business for BushCo was relaxing FCC rules on consolidation. Roger Ailes, President of Fox, is a personal friend and HUGE Bush supporter. He assists Chimpy in every way with his propoganda campaign. Whether it's pure fiction or just fake news, it is orchestrated. I will not watch 24 because it contributes to the Culture of Fear which is necessary to forward the Bush Agenda. Orange Alerts, 911, 24--fearmongering, plain and simple.

911 was a preventable event and it was the most political capital ever gained by a pResident, especially for a failure. And the fact that they won't allow the public at large to see the results of the investigations should tell you something. Where are the black boxes and why can't we hear what they said in the planes? Oh, wait....I forgot--National Security.



BTW--watch 24, Fox News or whatever you want. It's (kinda) a free country, but these shows contribute to the atmosphere that has led to less freedom in this country.

[eleny]

107. IMO, fear is the bread and butter of this administration

[Buck Rabbit]

110. Yet "24" is the only show that consistently presents terrorism as usually MIHOP or LIHOP.

As repugnant as Murdoch and Fox News are, Fox Entertainment allows its shows the most stinging portrayals of Bush and the Neocons of all the broadcast networks.

The Simpsons, American Dad, Family Guy and for every past season "24".


And of course anyone who actually watches "24" realizes that you only have something to fear if you live in Los Angeles because that is where all terrorists attack and are headquartered for that matter. But they also know that in the end Jack Bauer will save them. It is camp adrenaline rush entertainment for those willing to put their plausibility switch on hold. It's Indiana Jones style entertainment.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. 24? Isn't that just some dumb action show?

Isn't that a bit like getting upset over the A-team?

[SaveOurDemocracy]

15. That cracked me up...

LOL

[screembloodymurder]

11. Sorry, but KO is right.

The show is designer fear. No question about it. One need only look at the subject matter and the timing of Bush's fear speeches.

[Pawel K]

17. Yes, Bush planned his speech to come on days before the premire of 24's new season

makes perfect sense, especially since Fox annouced the new season would premire Jan 07 back in May of 06.


Clearly, back in May of 06 Bush was planning this "surge" and not "stay the course".

Give me a ****ing break.

[OregonBlue]

29. I've read the tv blurb and based on that, I have never bothered to watch.

From the episode descriptions it's obvious that it's more propaganda. Have heard it's good but then so are lots of other things that do not push fear.

[The Gunslinger]

42. I didn't hear KO talk about it but

I I 've been thinking the same thing myself.

[Bryn]

14. No Flame here

I had to LOL whenever I read what Freepers are saying about this show. I am a huge fan of 24. It's just a damn good show, so full of actions.

[Bluebear]

16. CNN: "24 is a Neocon sex fantasy". Fans include Clarence Thomas, Rush...

..Cheney etc.

The show validates the neocon view, and they are not savvy enough to realize that they are using fiction to validate their real world view.

[Pawel K]

21. The neocon view?

Did you not read my OP.

The hero in there was a democrat. In the 5th season the enemy was not muslim, the enemy was the president of the united states who was controlled by a much more powerful organization.

[Bluebear]

24. Your OP has nothing to do with what CNN reported tonight

[Pawel K]

31. Yes it does

check out wikipedia's entry on Season 5.

And on top of that CNN is full of shit, if you dont know that yet I can't help you. All I ask is that you don't judge the show 4 episodes in to a season that has a total of 24. Every season had a huge plot twist every 6 episodes.

[Bluebear]

32. Whatever, Pawel. Sorry the media is disrespecting your favorite show.

[Pawel K]

76. Boo hoo, like I really care what the corporate media thinks.

[me b zola]

83. How about this

I welcome the corporate media discussing fear mongering, especially in connection with anything Fox. I have heard this discussed both on cnn & msnbc's Nora O'Donnell and I welcome the discussion that may get people to be aware of the fear mongering that they are being sold from many different sources.

[Bluebear]

86. You're quite fresh

But you know that.

[originalpckelly]

68. Isn't/wasn't Joementum a Dem?

:shrug:

[Pawel K]

80. Sure, so was Zell Miller

but I really don't see your point. They did nothing to lower the statue of Plamer in 24, he was honorable through all 4 seasons until he was killed off like virtually every other character.

[JackRiddler]

97. Irrelevant

Have barely watched this show because it is unwatchable to me. The density of events constantly violates the pretense of all this happening in real time. Acting and writing are generally terrible.

Anyway, regardless of apparent critiques of neocons or whatever, non-academics are going to read the show on the surface, as follows:

1) The terrorists are everywhere, they never sleep, they are constantly out to take any measure to blow shit up, because they hate us, they're evil, etc. Where there haven't been any terror attacks in the US since 9/11 and anthrax, "24" has provided dozens.

2) Any means are justified in the fight against their total evil and ultimate threat. Torture, shooting, whatever, it always works out for the best.

3) There are superheroes like Bauer and they know best.

ON EDIT: ALSO, THEY SHOULD CALL IT 19.2 - because it only shows 48 minutes out of each hour, the other 12 going into ads.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

22. Absolutely agree...

I love Keith, but he missed the mark tonight.
Duckie

[KatieW]

33. I feel the same way. And by the way, I have gut feeling that Keifer is no fan of Bush or Rush.

24 is just a TV show, a well produced and acted TV show IMHO. I enjoy it and never have thought I was giving the Neocon's cover because I enjoy the show. If you watch the show, you'd see that it doesn't give a pass to the Bush administration, far from it. It's one of the few TV shows where you have to be alert to watch it and makes you think.

Besides, dare I say it, it doesn't hurt the show that Keifer is HOT. LOL

[YellowRubberDuckie]

34. You hit the nail on the head.

Hey, here's something for you!

[G_j]

101. there is a pic of a smiling Rush and Kiefer posing together

what's that all about?

I've heard that 24 justifies torture, though I have not watched the show.

[LittleClarkie]

30. I've rather suspected that too. Well, at the least, the producers are freepers

so they're presenting the Bushie pov.

[NYCGirl]

51. Here's an article with the show's producers meeting the Homeland Security

biggies at the Heritage Foundation, with Limbaugh as moderator.

http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002532.html


BTW, I've never seen the show but Liberal friends of mine love it.

[cascadiance]

57. Babylon 5 also had it's "mixture" of right wing and left wing folks...

J. Michael Straszinski is definitely on the progressive side of the fence and sounded like he was made to feel ill when one of his actors said that a visit to the white house had Karl Rove telling show folks that Babylon 5 was Rove's and Bush's favorite TV series. I guess he thought the message of a President Clark creating a fascist government on earth would serve more as a warning to viewers than a guidebook!

Then you have Jerry Doyle who played security chief Michael Garibaldi on Babylon 5 who now has a right wing talk show too. So you've always had a "mix" of the right and left in many Hollywood efforts.

[LittleClarkie]

67. 24 is different, I believe

It's not just that there is a mix of people on the cast. That's to be expected, even in Hollywood, and I sorry to hear some Libertarian actors say they're afraid to discuss their political orientation because it hurts their career. But 24 has a very right wing oriented plotline, and it seems most of the cast an the creators just love Rush. He visits often apparently.

[originalpckelly]

69. Yeah, but Babylon 5 wasn't about a version of our time.

24 is.

[cascadiance]

77. Babylon 5 foreshadowed a lot of what's happening now....

With Night Watch having eery parallels to Homeland Security under Negroponte. Like I said, I wonder if the Bush crowd used the plot line to help them build a formula for what they've crafted now.

[Pacifist Patriot]

35. I don't know what KO said. I don't know who the investors/producers are.

I have watched 3 seasons on DVD.

I think it is poorly written, poorly acted and the premises are pathetic. Why did I watch 3 seasons you ask? Because my husband was interested in them and we watch the same DVDs while we work out in the evenings on the elliptical machine and pilates ball.

Politics aside, it's just crap. Sorry, my opinion only!

[Pawel K]

78. You are free to have your opinions

I know a bunch of people that don't care for the show. I would even agree that the acting isn't so great. But I personally love the story and the suspense and have been addicted to the show since last season.

All I am trying to say is that this show is by no means neocon propogenda as many claim and I think we are walking a fine line if we are willing to label everything that mentions terrorism as republican. This show was written before 9/11 and it certainly isn't the first show or movie about fighting terrorism.

[fujiyama]

92. I actually agree with most of what you said (cheesy acting, wooden dialogue)

and don't forget to leave reality at the door...but ironically, I have the opposite opinion of the show.

I just like the fast paced, adrenaline rush and wild plot twists.

I view it as great entertainment, but agree with some that its defense of torture may soften people to the idea...There are a lot of stupid people out there that may get influenced.

[Tatiana]

37. I think Keith did an important service tonight: he sparked discussion on the topic.

Yes, 24 is a fictional show. BUT, could some people (perhaps, the same ones that believed Saddam attacked us on 9/11 and that we found WMDs in Iraq) take the events of the season premiere to heart? There's a reason freepers are pointing to those episodes and making comments like "See? This is what Bush has been protecting us from! This is what will happen if we let the Democrats pull the troops out of Iraq." Also, I really think you have to take into account the fact that the show is lauded and promoted by so many right-wingers. What is it exactly that these right-wingers find so appealing about the show (as opposed to the West Wing, for example)?

Of course Fox and the producers at 24 have every right to make the show as sensationalist as they want. At the same time, Olbermann or any other person has the right to critique the episodes and question whether the show's content is irresponsible. This, in no way, takes away from the awesome acting and production values that have made the show an award-winning hit.

I happen to believe that Fox was irresponsible with the story and that they did cross a line. However, I respect the views of those that think differently.

[Pawel K]

82. Yes sir, I agree

dicussion about this is important and KO certainly has the right to speak out, this being the first time I haven't agreed with him. But I don't think we should get rid of every good show because some idiot might take it the wrong way. If you are biased one way or the other you will only see things in a show you want to see, it doesn't always mean the show itself is biased. People that look at this show and then go on the internet and post how big of a threat terrorism is to our country are already ditto heads that can't be saved.

[geomon666]

39. Don't you get it?

It's wrong and racist to show arab fundis blowing shit up and getting killed and tortured in return while arab non-fundis are wrongfully put in detention camps in subversion of the constitution.

But hey, it's totally ok to show the rightwing president as an evil murdering bastard and showing the military as nothing but a tool for his evil deeds while the non arab european terrorists bombed and killed federal agents at will while an evil backroom conglomerate of elites orchestrated the whole thing. Plus we got to see how evil those chinese are. That's all ok cause there weren't any arabs. It's perfectly ok to applaud that show. But unfortunately that was last year. Totally new year means we're free to bash senseless television again because we need something to bash about, apparently president fucktard isn't enough.

[muntrv]

40. It's easier to fight terrorism on "24" than it is in reality. Limpballs thinks the show

should be the blue print for shrub's war on terra.

[Limelight]

41. 24 is a great show

I'm 4 episodes deep in the new season, and after hearing criticism about the show pushing an agenda on here (especially as I used an episode of an example of why torture, though distateful could be potentially useful in an extreme situation which I still say despite what anyone thinks) I made sure to watch the show with a few more grains of salt than I would with any other action based show which are all those proverbial amps turned up to 11.

What I saw was a show that properly balanced with the moral ambiguities that would face this country in the event that terrorists were actively trying to destroy our way of life. Torture, concentration camps, racism/racial profiling, islamaphobia, protection of civil liberties, civil disobedience. These were all areas that are explored in what I think is really just a slightly over exagerated simulation of what it might actually be like to have a well organized, well funded, well trained group of killers willing to sacrafice themselves just to do us harm actually acting out a plot against this country.

In a situation like that we would see both the most ugly and the most noble of human instincts on display amongst the individual citizens that make up this country. Some of this stuff, when the shit actually hit the fan, wouldn't be so damn black and white. For example Jack, the main character after spending 2 years of being totured by the Chinese government, some would say karma for the things he's done to others, he shies away from torturing another man. I did find it a litttle bit disturbing that once another character continues the torture Jack is unwillign to continue the information they need comes out. It was an obvious little message they slid in there, but again Jack is the hero his change of heart is what I think the main focus of the scene in question.

In the end from what I've seen of this season of 24 so far and the ones in the past the general bent of the show is even amongst all the ugliness it's the most noble of human instincts... to stand up for your rights and the rights of others and to put your life on the line to fight for the preservation of human life... those will be the things that win out over bigotry and extremism in the end.

[IntravenousDemilo]

73. Yes, and 24 gives me a rush that has nothing whatsoever to do with Limbaugh. n/m

[Little Wing]

44. Must be a slow news day. When do we get to hear about CSI

Miami, New York, LA. Crime Scene Investigators, Oh My Fucking God What Happened to HIM, and the rest of the 'crime' shows that are pre-packaged torturefests?

[bullwinkle428]

45. Regarding KO's opinion, it's like what Stephanie Miller says on her show

regularly - "If you agree with 100% of what we say every day without question, YOU ARE AN IDIOT!"

I still agree with his views a huge majority of the time, and this doesn't lessen my opinion of him in any way...it's just one point on which I would disagree with him.

[Connie_Corleone]

46. None of the broadcasts mentioned that last season the president

was the villain. He staged terrorist attacks, blamed it on terrorists, and it was all about oil. He ended up getting arrested. The president was so much like Bush.

Everyone I know likes the show, but can't stand the Bush administration. I guess we're the few who can separate fact from fiction.

[Peace Patriot]

47. I think that the attraction of 24 for most viewers is more complex than

the desire to have their rightwing views validated. I've seen the first two seasons--all the episodes. I enjoyed it quite a lot--especially the first season, or season and a half (--to where the blond girls in peril occurs, the hero's wife and daughter)--and I am a pacifist. I don't mind violence, if it's a good story. Shakespeare is violent. Fairy tales are violent. (Think about Hanzel and Gretel!) You can't tell many parts of the human story without depicting violence. And I think that the mental and emotional satisfaction of a good story far, far outweighs any negative effects of violence or the depiction of bad behavior. (I think the commercials are more violent than any fictional show--because they fracture your consciousness and interfere with enjoyment of the story.)

As to creating fear, I don't think 24 does. And I think that it may do some good as to allaying fear. The mind is tricky this way. The mere description of a scary situation, or violent behavior, may disturb and excite you, but we humans seem to have a need to play out our fears. The Greek playwrights called it "catharsis." They portrayed wrenching and terrible things in plays--the murder of children, incest, a brother's body rotting outside a city wall, unburied--and the idea was to experience strong emotions vicariously, and thus purge fears and pentup feelings. It was a sort of health measure. And there was a German psychologist (--I almost had his name, can't think of it) who said just this about fairy tales--that children NEED to have their fears depicted. It may scare them a bit, but ultimately it settles the mind down. We imagine the worst; we overcome it (vicariously in the story); and then we see that we are still here; we have survived; we are thus able to face the world, and life, and real dangers with more equanimity.

Anyway, 24 jacks up the emotion to fever pitch--so much so that it becomes a bit tiresome after many episodes of it. But that is its artistic mode, along with the theme of the virtuous if unruly hero stopping evildoers, rescuing people, and sometimes inflicting revenge for evil done. Think: Clint Eastwood on crack.

There were a couple of quite blatant story manipulations that I really didn't like. The blond girls in peril was one--what drips they were. And the good President put in a position of having to torture his former friend. But again--on this latter--do we not hear discussions of this? If you thought someone knew where a nuclear weapon was, that was about to ignite in Los Angeles, killing many millions of people, would you torture the person to get at the weapon?

The latter episode was riveting--but later I felt had. Tricked. Used. Manipulated.

The acting in 24 is for the most part excellent, as are the production values--and, for the most part, the story writing is good. The extension of this tense atmosphere over many episodes does somewhat interfere with the function of good stories--to be satisfying, to come to completion.

I want to talk a bit more about Jack Bauer, anti-hero. But I have to go have dinner. (And, no, I'm not watching 24 tonight. West Wing, as a matter of fact.) See y'all later.

[Bluzmann57]

48. Tried watching "24" the first season

and I really got into it until the looonnnngggg break between episodes. Then I lost interest because the plot wasn't fresh anymore. Fox screwed up on that one imo. Keep the damn action going, it's supposed to be in a 24 hour period, keep it sort of like that. Go go go. Too much of a delay.

[Connie_Corleone]

50. There was more action after the first season.

Now, you barely get a breather before something else happens.

[mike_c]

49. good gawd-- why would anyone get their knickers in a twist...

...over a television show? It's all tripe and wasted electrons in the end anyway....

[mmonk]

52. You'd be amazed how much people get validation

of their opinions or world view through fictional TV. I'm all for creating whatever someone wants to but in this day and time, I really don't care for such.

[cascadiance]

61. I have my concerns too...

... but if we really want to try and get people who are feeding their fear/war mongering feelings out of the gutter from what they dwell on in entertainment world, perhaps we might be better off going into a space that's almost devoid of good progressive messages. That would be video games...

I've been thinking for a while that it might be cool to have an "impeachment" game.

Perhaps have a game where you as a member of congress (or perhaps have another scenario where you go through a state legislature) go through trying to assemble enough information to do a successful impeachment of a president like Bush (perhaps we could even have Bush, since we've already had using real life persons in fictional docuramas like "Death of a President").

We could then also have a companion interactive q/a droid that one could ask various rules of impeachment, and perhaps even look up all of the information that one has on Bush (which perhaps could be updated through an online game mod loader with current info), and see what laws are being violated to help assess it's impeachment worthiness or the like.

If you did it right, it might serve as a good educational piece, even if entertaining as an interactive story, to get people feeling like they understand what we're faced with when trying to impeach Bush, and when the time will happen when we should all demand it and when we should hold our horses until another key piece of evidence is assembled.

[Seen the light]

53. Did he really trash it?

That's a shame. I really respected him too. Oh well, I'll chalk it up to anti-Fox stuff he was put up to by MSNBC.

[minkyboodle]

54. I thought KO was right one

I saw part of the heritage foundation love fest for
the producers of the show that Rushbo hosted and Chertoff
attended. The views of that panel seemed to be mainly
one that they were reminding the American people of the
real dangers of the war on terror and doing a service
that the main stream media was derelict in. I've viewed
the season premiere probably 3 times and I have to say
I think the worst thing about the show (besides the
fear/terror exploitation) was the rationalization of torture ie
the one in a million situation were the guy in custody
is like 10 minutes away from the nuke/VP location etc.
This situation seems to be in almost every show and bam
Jack Bauer shoots a guy in the leg or makes the whole
idea of anti-torture positions seem silly. Its pure fantasy
but I have heard right wing callers on the radio use
Jack Bauer as a reason why we should torture where as
the real people in that field have exactly the opposite
view. 24 is a baby of the neo-con right in this country even
if many find it to be entertaining (not me) or that
K. Sutherland may be a good guy (which he is from what I've
heard). That's my opinion and I thought Keith O did a great
job tonight.

[EstimatedProphet]

58. I'm not saying it should be taken off the air...

or that it is being used as propaganda or anything.

But, when people live on a diet of fear, when they have fear forced in their face every day, when they have all their news as fear, and then all their entertainment as fear...

They become scared.

[Neshanic]

62. "See Edna, thats what the Presidents takin about!"

I was raked over the coals taking people to task for the show "Over There", a piece of disguting crap exploitation that bordered on the pornographic. It was a show that glamorized a war that was, and is curently being fought, and was the first time this had happened. No other show was on any network that depicted a fiction storyline of lives of the military fighting a war that was actually taking place. Never.

But this is about 24.

A fictional show that has fiction characters, with fictional situations that take place on a global scale; how could anyone take it seriously? Well, it's not taken on face value by the intelligent people here, but it's the pieces that make up the whole that "Joe Blow" takes in. A terroist attack on the show here, a nuclear attack story line there and it all adds up to a very sublime, and very under the radar promotion of fear, and more fear; this the gas that makes the Bush "scare the fuck out of them SUV" go.

Not everyone is a smart, trendy, iDemocrat, that has all the bases covered, and knows it's only a show; the average repub leaning person takes in the pieces that make up the shows over a season, and sadly is subliminally fed something that reinforces his fear.

Don't think Fox does not know it either. If you think they don't, Fox has some more shows for you.

I'll take Kieth's opinion over anyones on the show, and if he says so...it's a fact.

[Seen the light]

65. ...

Sorry, but I've watched every episode of 24 from Day 1 until now and he was completely and utterly wrong. The whole point of last season was that the President of the United States, a Republican, was helping terrorists plan an attack against the country because of his ties to oil interests. Let me repeat that: The whole point of last season was that the President of the United States, a Republican, was helping terrorists plan an attack against the country because of his ties to oil interests.

Does that sound like some plot carried out by Fox to brainwash the masses towards Bush to you?

I can't stand that Olbermann did this because you're right, I too would think he was right if I had never seen the show before just because he's Keith. But I'm telling you that he is absolutely wrong.

[Mz Pip]

66. I agree

It's fantasy that has some basis in reality. Which is why it works.

Of course there are people out there who would love to smuggle a nuke into LA or NY and waste a whole bunch of people. I don't deny that. That doesn't mean I see 24 as anything other than an entertaining action drama. These two things are not mutually exclusive.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[Robbien]

79. It's also Rush Limbaugh's and Dick Cheney's favorite show

If Darth Cheney gives it a thumbsup, you know it is evil.

Plus they use the word terrorist three times each and every minute (kinda like Cheney and Bush). The show couldn't be more annoying if they tried.

[cascadiance]

89. Babylon 5 was also Bush and Rove's "favorite show"

It's been quoted on the web and I can find the link for it. The show creators were hardly right wingers.

[Swamp Rat]

81. FUX Nooz and their crappy propaganda TV shows cause brain damage.

[Pawel K]

85. Yeah, the Simpsons, Family Guy, and American Dad are all right wing Fox propaganda.

:crazy:

I have no doubt you are upset about what has been happening in our country over the past 7 years, I am pissed. But you do need to lighten up a bit or you will live with hate in your heart for the rest of your life. Bush will get what is coming to him for all his crimes and I hope you never give up the fight to make sure that happens. But this is just a TV show, relax a bit.

[Swamp Rat]

94. Relax?!? With all those space reptiles running about, sucking out people's brains?

No way! :yoiks:

[Pawel K]

99. I wear my tin foil har, space reptiles don't scare me

Cannibal carville still does though.

[flashlighter]

84. Oh for Christ's sake. It's a TEEVEE SHOW!!!

[Robbien]

88. No. Propaganda. The show plot was discussed at RW think tank Heritage House

and PNACers and show bigwigs where there

The show's popularity with some political types was highlighted last June during a forum on terrorism in Washington, D.C., by the conservative Heritage Foundation that featured Limbaugh as moderator.

The forum, called "24 and America's Image in Fighting Terrorism: Fact, Fiction or Does It Matter?" included Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff and various think-tank experts. According to Entertainment Weekly magazine, radio host Laura Ingraham and Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas also attended.

Some speculate one reason "24" is such a favorite of the Bush crowd is that Bauer is presented as a guy with no qualms about torturing his prisoners in order to get information as quickly as possible. In light of criticism the Bush administration gets for its torture policies, it doesn't take a think-tank expert to see why some hail the show as a breath of clean air.

http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=552931

[Pawel K]

90. Did you actually watch that?

I did. And as sick as listening to Rush made me the few producers of the show they had were hardly right wing.

[fujiyama]

93. It could be both

It may be propaganda in a sense. There is no denying Surnow's politics after all. He's definetely a RWer and I propaganda may be part of his motive. But the show has plenty of liberal writers and actors on the set as well. Last season, which was probably the most popular, featured a corrupt republican president. Greg Itzin, a ear wearing liberal explained how Cochran, the other major producer is a liberal as well.

But simply viewing the show as a whole (there have been five seasons now after all) as RW propaganda, is an incredibly shallow and simplistic analysis. The show has had plots that arguably have been both RW and LW. Plus, certain seasons plot lines have certain biases creep through. I found 2 and 5 to be liberal. Four and Six have been sort of RW. But that's just my opinion.

Maybe, it aims to keep people fearful. But these types of films dealing with terrorism are nothing new. I have always enjoyed suspenseful dramas and TV series. This show, albeit is over the top, has goofy acting, and cheesy scripts, but moves along at a breakneck speed and has great plot twists.

That's why I watch. I have no problem with someone saying the show sucks. Everyone can watch what they want. That's why there's a clicker. I just find it annoying that some are trying to make viewers of the show out to be idiots for supposedly being suckered into watching Fox propaganda.

[brettdale]

91. I have to disagree with Keith

I thought season five was a total dig at Bush*t.

[madfloridian]

95. I don't watch it, but check out these pictures from Rush's site.

This was at the Heritage Foundation event for the series 24. How many shows has the Heritage Foundation held events for? Note Judge Clarence Thomas with Limbaugh, and the kiss Rush gave the female star. Note Chertoff is there as well.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/rush_photos_main/24paneldiscussion.guest.html

[milkyway]

96. Cheney's writing the script this season,

at least the first four hours. I've watched every season of 24 and like the show quite a bit, but this season's first four hours is a Fox News wet dream. Hannity must have come in his pants when the Muslim terrorists nuked L.A.

Commenters are right that past seasons have shown many different groups of bad guys, and this season will change course numerous times. There are, however, many small elements of this season that are straight out of repug talking points.

First, the Gitmo-on-the-Pacific prison camp is portrayed as having only the most extreme terrorists locked away in it. This is simply not true of Guantanamo by any objective account.

Second, with numerous terrorists attacks having occurred in recent weeks, and just that morning a series of bombing in multiple cities, the unappealing lawyer is still whining about civil liberties. She even demanded to speak to her brother the President so he can drop what he's doing (trying to prevent nuclear annihilation) and listen to her whine about her client's first amendment rights. Could the scriptwriters have done anything more to make the Constitution and those that defend it seem like nothing more than a nuisance?

Third, and the most annoying to me, Jack is in the car with the Muslim terrorist that is cooperating with Jack. Jack says to him, "You may hate our country, and you may hate our values..." Jihadists may very well hate our values, Jack, but I don't think that's their main complaint with us. I almost expected Jack to say, "You may hate us for our freedoms."

One non-political complaint about the show is that it is more a cartoon than real life. Every season there is always a lot of petty office squabbling at CTU, even when the nation faces imminent obliteration. It gets more laughable every season seeing these agents portrayed as 2-yr-olds in a sandbox. And why is it that this one small CTU office in Los Angeles always gets all the heavy action? And why does it always seem that no matter how much has to be done to save us, there are only two or three people in the office capable of doing anything? The country is really screwed this season--Edgar's not around anymore.

This season also introduced us, for one night only, to the dumbest man in America. When given the choices of taking on a badly injured high school kid with a gun, calling the police, or acting as a courier for terrorists, he chose to become the courier. He never thought of calling the police and telling them to walk up to the front window of his house and put a bullet in the back of the head of the high school terrorist kid with a gun (the kid was sitting on a sofa against the front window, barely able to move). As a terrorist courier, he kills a man and then delivers a strange device to the terrorists. Even after delivering the nuclear detonator, he seemed genuinely perplexed that they wouldn't then release his son.

It figures that wingnuts would like this entertaining but frequently preposterous show because it seems so realistic to them.

[fooj]

98. It wasn't JUST KO.

ABC and NBC both did segments...FWIW.

[Jed Dilligan]

100. Never watched it, but

I've seen someone here who was conflicted about opposing torture because of something that happened on the show. The main reason I don't watch is that it looks unrealistic. If it shows torture working to prevent a terrorist attack, it is unrealistic.

[Madspirit]

104. Avengers

I've been watching some of my old Avengers tapes recently. Man I love Emma Peel. ...and I've watched some old Mission Impossible recently. Both shows were dealing with terrorists. If you are going to watch a show about spies and secret agents, terrorism IS what they will be dealing with. Secret Agents don't deal with shoplifting.

That doesn't mean the shows promote a right-wing agenda. HOWEVER, that some of the producers are friends of Rush Limbaugh...THAT I find worrisome. (For one thing, I didn't know he had any friends.) THAT makes me wonder what messages they might be trying to send us above and beyond the adventure of the show.

I, personally, quit watching 24 after the first season. It made me too nervous.
Madspirit

[nonconformist]

106. I've watched 24 since the very beginning, every season

It's a fantastic show. The writing and acting are superb.

If you will notice, the VAST majority of the people bitching have never seen it, or have seen some random episode once.

[Madspirit]

109. nervous

I liked it the first season. I quit watching because it made me nervous to the point of uncomfortable. A LOT of my LEFTIST friends love it.
Madspirit

[EndElectoral]

111. There's not been one IED in America by foreigners...yet this show has suitcase nukes? Gimme a break

[SteveM]

112. Has a perma-plot: always running after a train & not catching it.