How a Victim Mentality Makes You Remain in the Hurtful Past

[rpgamerd00d]

How a victim mentality makes you remain in the hurtful past

The key to happiness can be summed up in this simple line: Never feel sorry for yourself.

Attributes of a Winner: 1. What have I got; 2. Makes thing happen; 3. How can I become; 4. Looks at the positive; 5. Finds ways; 6. Acknowledges responsibility; 7. Takes guidance; 8. Sees always wins ahead; 9. Listens more; 10. Creates goals for him/herself; 11. Learns from mistakes; 12. Forgives; 13. Long distance runner, patient; 14. Favors.

Attributes of a Victim: 1. What haven't I got; 2. Waits for things to happen; 3. Why cant I?; 4. Focuses on the faults; 5. Finds excuses; 6. blames others; 7. Knows all; 8. Sees always looses ahead; 9. Talks more; 10. Creates obstacles for him/herself; 11. Looses from mistakes; 12. Holds a grudge; 13. Short distance runner, burns out; 14. Blames.


I think this list says it all, it gives you a clear idea what is the essence in the difference of a winner and victim. The fact is that no one is capable of feeling enough sorry for a person, simply because there is no person in the world that can make things better when you are not doing anything about it yourself. Empathy has never cured any personal or mental problems in anyone ever. Empathy triggers our "behavior mirrors". That is, if you get empathy from others you start to act the victim role and you start to feel worse because you want to reflect this idea that person has of you as being a HUGE victim. So with every person that feels sorry for you, your victim role is strengthened and with it you throw away any responsibility for your own emotions and behavior. Everything you try to achieve in this victim "mode" is doomed to failure because you have to proof for yourself constantly that you are so much a victim that everything fails and then you have one more thing to feel sorry for yourself about and that strengthens even more the victim inside you.

The thing that is also amazing about this is that you are totally oblivious about what is really going on. The self-deception is so great, everything evolves around to be the ideal victim so you don’t even see that you are creating the problems yourself. When you are a victim you never take responsibility for your own feelings, behavior and mental state, you simply blame the "others" for it if things aren’t great, the "others" are bad because they don’t feel sorry enough for you and treat you badly. You feel the whole world is against you, when in fact the problem starts and ends with this self deception, the lie that you have gotten so clever to tell yourself. You make yourself think that you are a helpless victim to your own bad emotions, that the depression you feel is simply something that comes out of thin air and that you can’t do anything about it.

The key to live a life in harmony, peace and happiness is such a simple thing: Not allowing oneself to indulge in self-pity. You just have to take responsibility of your own emotions and feelings, to look at the positive sides of everything, to have the winner attitude always in mind in all situations, to acknowledge that it is in fact up to you how you handle things in life. If you have the winner mentality then it doesn’t really matters what life throws at you, you make problems into tasks that you work on and solve. It is just so much easier to look at things in a positive way, even things that frighten you, that seem so unsolvable. It is a fact that if you don’t see the monster in a horror film then the film gets so much scarier. As soon as you get to see the monster close up it stops being so scary. The same with problems, if you simply look at them straight in the eyes, examine them closely, get familiar to them, then they stop being so scary.


(modified from original article: http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/7-12-2006-102156.asp )

Victim mind-set erases choice

First I want to make a clear distinction between being treated as a victim and having a victim mentality. It’s not like the old horse and carriage, we can have one without the other. For abusers actually to feel victimized by the people they are hurting emotionally or even physically is a classic scenario. On the other hand, we may be genuinely victimized by someone and still not think or respond like a victim.

Refusing to think like a victim: Sojourner Truth, an African American woman who escaped slavery and was a strong abolition activist, attended the National Women's Suffrage Convention in Akron, Ohio, where she delivered her powerful "Ain't I a Woman?" speech.

Only women were allowed to speak and she was such a powerful speaker that an effort was made by opponents of the movement to discredit her by humiliating her. She was ordered to go to the women's room and bare her breast to prove that she was a woman.

Sojourner Truth was offered a choice between not speaking and being humiliated. But she refused to stay in the confines of that "no-win" choice. She refused to think like a victim. She chose to speak — and as she went to the women’s room to "prove" she was a woman, she said with power and grace, "It is to your shame, not mine, that I do this."

The problem: We slip easily into victim mentality when we we try to get exactly what we want in less than ideal circumstances and when we can't, we allow ourselves to be trapped in no-win choices. Often, we aren't even willing to consider any choice other than the ideal choice. When we are in victim mentality, we don’t see the range of choices we have and we wallow in resentment. We feel helpless.

The solution: In order to eliminate our victim mentality, we must:

1. Start by accepting the reality of the situation instead of trying to achieve the ideal.
2. Find the best choice available within the reality of the circumstances, and then
3. Accept that choice instead of resenting it.

(original article: http://hodu.com/victim.shtml )

My thoughts.

In a relationship, it is bad to bring up incidents from your significant others' past during an argument. Your SO cannot change the past. If you constantly bring up their past and blame them for it, they have no recourse. They cannot change it, and if you keep bringing it up, all you will do is continuously cause them pain. Once you forgive your partner for something, it is absolutely critical that you never bring it up again.

But History does have a value. The value of History, is Knowledge. The saying "Never Forget" implies the need to use past knowledge in a way that prevents the mistakes of the past from repeating themselves. But in doing so, one must be careful not to use the past as a "weapon" against which no one has a possible defense.

In this regard, I think its completely irresponsible for people today, year 2007, to bring up the issue of Slavery as a "weapon" of entitlement and political rhetoric. No one alive today is responsible for slavery, and no one alive today is even responsible for ending it. Slavery is something from the past. To use Slavery to make some kind of claim to "righteousness" or "justice" clearly indicates that you have fallen into a Victim Mentality (from above). Slavery only exists today as knowledge. It only exists in a history book. From the moment you were born, slavery has had no effect on your life. It is harmful, both to you and to society, to claim "victimization" from slavery.

This issue can do nothing but bring up hateful feelings and resentment which are misplaced and falsely attributed to a society which was not involved, and can do nothing to alter the past. Forcing today's society to apologize for the actions of a past society does nothing except magnify the victim mentality of those that choose to victimize themselves. The so-called "behavior mirrors".

Lastly, I feel that there are SO many real, current, critical issues that Americans face today (war, civil rights violations, corporate dominance/exploitation, voting confidence, fairness in media) that the last thing we should be focussing on is addressing issues brought about by Victim Mentality.

[nashville_brook]

1. happy belated Martin Luther King Jr. Day to you too...

[theHandpuppet]

18. Ditto that.

Sheesh.

[Fire Walk With Me]

2. Good post. Any group of positive persons is more powerful than only one.

A good mood is your own choice, I believe Abe Lincoln said.

[pitohui]

3. seems like a lounge post to me but whatever

if a person has been victimized, it's a bit harsh to tell them to buck up and stop being a victim

i see slavery everywhere around me, it exists everywhere a contractor entices a group of men to work for little or nothing and live in a tent and then when he's done with them the contractor runs out without paying them -- so slavery is obviously not something that just happens in an old tired history book

"victims" have a right to lobby for their causes, which have historically included very important causes like worker's rights, women's right, environmental causes, civil rights, really some of the most important causes of the the last 3 centuries

most people who "forgive" don't make any changes in their life or their world, they allow the same damn thing to happen to the next person in line

[rpgamerd00d]

4. Victim and Victim mentality are different, as per the article.

You need to read it more closely.

[pitohui]

12. in real life the phrase victim mentality is code for STFU w. yr liberal issues

this is a common right wing code word, victims of serious events and crimes are told they have a victim mentality and should STFU and get over it

i'm calling foul on this old, tired tactic

we need to spend less time playing semantic games that play into wingnut hands

w.out angry victims willing to speak up many causes would have gone nowhere

[rpgamerd00d]

13. I disagree. This has nothing to do with real victims of real offenses.

There does not exist a single victim of slavery in the USA.
Period.

[pitohui]

17. well that is patently untrue

as i said, come down to new orleans and look around, go over to florida and look around

there are slaves working every day, right out in visible view where you can see them at their labors

there are none so blind as those who will not see

[rpgamerd00d]

22. Show me a slave in the USA, and I'll give you $1000.

There are no slaves.
Slavery has been abolished.

p.s. showing me an exploited worker != showing me a slave.

[Virginia Dare]

42. Just because it was abolished doesn't mean they don't exist..

there are people in this country convicted of holding slaves all the time.

[rpgamerd00d]

45. OK, you're right, I should have said "legal slavery"

[Madspirit]

148. I will send you my address

After guns and drugs...the third largest criminal moneymaker is the sale of humans, right here in the old USA. Google it yourself or just go to government websites or Amnesty International. They are used for maids and slaves and sex and, etc. ...and the majority ARE still black. I didn't say "all". I said "majority".

I will send you my address because I can really use that 1000 bucks.
Madspirit

[Kerrytravelers]

31. Depends on your definition of slavery.

Pick up a book by Jonathon Kozol called "Savage Inequalities" and perhaps your views may alter.

Reading it forever changed me and brought me into the profession of education.

http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Inequalities-Children-Americas-Schools/dp/0060974990




I have just been given "The Shame of the Nation: The Restoration of Apartheid Schooling in America," which I highly anticipate reading.

http://www.amazon.com/Shame-Nation-Restoration-Apartheid-Schooling/dp/1400052440/ref=pd_lpo_k2_dp_k2a_2_txt/104-1468467-4744742


And also recommended on the Amazon page, not surprising, is "'Why Are All The Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?': A Psychologist Explains the Development of Racial Identity " A co-worker has recommended this to many of us that are not minorities to further understand and empower our ability to reach children in a very real way.

http://www.amazon.com/Black-Kids-Sitting-Together-Cafeteria/dp/0465083617/ref=pd_sim_b_5/104-1468467-4744742

[rpgamerd00d]

34. what is your definition of "is" ?

:eyes:

[crispini]

54. That's pretty sad.

The poster gave you some very interesting feedback on your post and you just sort of blew it off.

The truth is that slavery, although it does not exist in a legal form today, has had profound effects on the socioeconomic status and culture of African-Americans, their families, and in our collective institutions. There are people alive today whose grandparents were slaves. These grandparents did not have the chance to climb into the middle class and establish a legacy of education and property owning as MY grandparents (who were white) did. I am the beneficiary of a long line of solidly middle-class property owners; I own property that was handed down to me and I was given an excellent education by my parents, who were themselves very well educated. That legacy clearly gives me a "leg up" on those whose ancestors WERE property and were not allowed to be educated.

[ieoeja]

82. Well said! And it's not all financial either!

15 to 20 years ago I lost control of my car going around a bend. Struck a car full of African-Americans. Police showed up. Everyone from the other car started running.

Why did they run? Because growing up they learned from their elders that the police are to be feared at all times. That fear is passed from generation to generation.


Now, I happen to believe that reparations is more about washing our hands of the guilt than actually doing something to fix this problem. But I do not deny the existence of the problem as does our role playing gamer friend.

[hfojvt]

107. good post, but those 'people alive today' have adult grandchildren

I met a man whose grandfather fought in the civil war. His little sister, if she is still alive, will be 77 this year. He died 11 years before she was born, so he did not have a personal impact on her. I suppose you could look at my dad's grandfather, who was born in 1860 and say that he was a slave (or would have been if he was born black and in the South) but not so as he would remember it or be impacted by it. The greater impact would be the discrimination and the fact that his parents would be starting over with almost nothing.

[crispini]

122. The economic impact is the biggest thing I am thinking of.

My great-grandfather came over from England as a white, educated man: a surveyor. He was able to make a living and buy a farm; he raised cows, chickens, and wheat. That property is still in my family today. We have rented the farm land, sold the trees on it, and mortgaged it on occasion. The fruits of that land has helped pay for the education of several of his descendants.

The average African-American, however, may very well have a great-grandfather that came over AS property.

[ieoeja]

72. So now you're quoting Republic spin against Clinton.

I happened to catch Clinton LIVE when he asked for a definition of "is". Just prior to his asking that question I started hollering at my TV about the question he was just asked, "that's a trick question!"

The question he was asked mixed present and past tenses in such a way that the Republic could interpret his answer unfavorably whether he answered yes or no. He saw and side-stepped the trick.

And every Republic since has been gleefully taking a portion of his reply out of context and spinning it.

Good job keeping the spin alive.

Now, you may return to explaining how my ancestors had nothing to do with shaping their descendants down to my parents who had nothing to do with shaping the person I have become.

[TahitiNut]

5. Rescuers need Victims in the Melodrama of Life.

:shrug:

[Igel]

78. I like that phrase.

Well, not so much the "melodrama of life" bit, that sounds, well, melodramatic. But "rescuers need victims" sums up some attitudes well enough, I think.

[TahitiNut]

118. It's a melodrama for the Victims, the Rescuers, and the Villains.

Furthermore, the roles change quite quickly ... so stay alert. It's not just Nell, Dudley, and Snidely.

[porphyrian]

6. The problem is that the damage caused by slavery has never been entirely fixed.

Racism and classism still exist, both overtly and institutionally. There's plenty of evidence supporting this. While we may not be guilty of the crime of slavery, aren't we guilty of not ending the ongoing legacy of those who were? Aren't we responsible for what happens on our watch?

[rpgamerd00d]

8. It is disingenuous to blame todays issues on slavery, and it is just as

disingenuous to ask a State legislature to apologize for slavery, as if it would have any effect.

[porphyrian]

35. It's not slavery's "fault," but the damage it caused did not end with the practice.

It still has not been repaired, and there is a measurable inequality between the descendants of those who were slaves and the descendants of those who profited from them. An official apology would be little more than a symbolic gesture, but why not make it? Wouldn't going on record be a step in the right direction, even if it did nothing more than get the conversation on how to proceed from here going?

[rpgamerd00d]

48. I feel that doing so would re-victimize those same people youre trying to help.

What about blacks that DONT want an apology, that DONT feel like victims?
By VA apologizing for Slavery, they would be lumping them in with those that feel they are victims.

I think its more hurtful.

[Virginia Dare]

53. Did you even read the resolution?...

because here it is, read it. How is this making a victim out of anyone?

http://richmonddemocrat.blogspot.com/2007/01/text-of-slavery-apology-resolution.html

[rpgamerd00d]

57. If you ignore the history parts of it, here is the only relevant piece:

"be it RESOLVED by the Senate, the House of Delegates concurring, That the General Assembly hereby atone for the involuntary servitude of Africans and call for reconciliation among all Virginians;"

Atone = Apologize.

And I think its just wrong, for reasons I already elaborated on.

[Virginia Dare]

60. If you ignore the history parts of it?

:rofl:

[rpgamerd00d]

64. Its a resolution, and all it does is blather on and on until it finally gets to

the resolution part.

[Virginia Dare]

71. Okay, you had me going there for a while...

this is parody, right?

[bananas]

111. atone "1. To make amends, as for a sin or fault: These crimes must be atoned for."

Atone doesn't mean apologize.
So you're wrong.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Atone&x=9&y=14

a·tone (-tn)
v. a·toned, a·ton·ing, a·tones
v.intr.
1. To make amends, as for a sin or fault: These crimes must be atoned for.
2. Archaic To agree.
v.tr.
1. To expiate.
2. Archaic To conciliate; appease: "So heaven, atoned, shall dying Greece restore" Alexander Pope.
3. Obsolete To reconcile or harmonize.

a·tona·ble, a·tonea·ble adj.
a·toner n.

ThesaurusLegend: Synonyms Related Words AntonymsVerb 1. atone - make amends for; "expiate one's sins"
aby, abye, expiate
redress, right, correct, compensate - make reparations or amends for; "right a wrongs done to the victims of the Holocaust"
2. atone - turn away from sin or do penitence
repent

[porphyrian]

58. No one has to accept an apology, but no one can accept one that isn't given.

I think you're oversimplifying by lumping people into the victim-mentality and non-victim-mentality categories, as if there are only two predictable behaviors. That makes your "What about blacks that DONT want an apology" comment somewhat ironic, don't you think?

The government WAS here when slavery was the accepted practice, and elements of that system STILL continue to perpetuate elements of slavery. Having the government go on record against it seems a logical first step to me. I'm not entirely sure why you're so resistant to the idea.

[mark414]

61. no it's not

for 400 years (up until 1964) it was law to deny black people education, equal rights, a say in their government, means of gaining wealth and property, and since 1964 it still happens, in more subtle but equally sinister ways.

some of the most powerful corporations in this country wouldn't even be around today without all that free labor - and why do you think the south's economy took so long (and is still lagging behind) to recover? they were so used to all that free labor.

i don't know anybody who has a "victim mentality" and black people today have as much to do with slavery as you or me (and most of my ancestors came over here after the slaves were freed as well). all i ever see or hear is people saying hey, give me a fair fucking shot and i'll be happy.

but the effects certainly transfer over when all of the problems didn't stop, hell became even worse once the war ended.

slavery is not the only thing to blame for what's going on today, nearly the whole of american history is. and as long as you live here, and participate in an unequal society but turn a blind eye towards that inequality, you're responsible. if you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem.

nobody is asking you personally to apologize for slavery, cause again you and me had nothing to do with it. just recognize what it's done. that's not a victim mentality, that's the fucking truth.

[fasttense]

7. I think this "just don't think like a victim and the world is your oyster" is a load of crap.

There are some very real reasons for people to think of themselves as victims. Especially if they are a victim of robbery, abuse, traumatic events etc...Just look at Americans after 9/11. We all thought of ourselves as victims even if we didn't have a loved one who was killed.

Now, have you ever tried not to think something? The more you try not to think of it, the more you have it in your mind. Just changing your attitude is not going to make you successful. From personal experience, it is a combination of LUCK and hard work. But mostly luck. It's a racket that motivational speakers sell to suckers. "A positive attitude is all you need to open up opportunity" they tell you. It takes a whole lot more than that.

What exactly is this victim attitude anyway? What actual thoughts and feelings are involved? Think about it. It is a more complicated process than simply a positive or negative attitude. Sometimes a victim attitude can actually spur you on to prevent you from being a victim again.

[rpgamerd00d]

9. Again, real victim isn't the same thing as victim mentality, you should read more carefully

Thanks.

[pitohui]

people can read just fine, it's the OP that is poorly written

it is a poorly written scrawling, sprawling screed that thinly repackages the usual right wing libertarian b.s. that if we all just engaged in the magical positive thinking and pretended that all was well, all would be well

no change comes from forgiveness, change comes from anger and action

[rpgamerd00d]

16. Well, since Im farther to the left than pretty much everyone here,

apparently you're wrong.

[pitohui]

21. facts not in evidence, sorry

i don't know what "farther to the left" means when you are not even aware of the huge problem of slavery that exists in the modern world, right now, today

there is human trafficking going on all around us, no use saying it doesn't happen and we should all just be happy and don't worry

[rpgamerd00d]

24. OK, you need to re-read everything, because now you're just making shit up.

[Sapphire Blue]

27. You're so damn far to the left that you've made it all the way to the extreme right.

:puke:

[rpgamerd00d]

28. Uh, no, this is a very liberal viewpoint.

[nashville_brook]

46. sounds a bit Ayn Rand-ian... maybe she was a liberal and we just didn't get it

either

[iverglas]

136. liberal not = left

That could be a problem here.


I'm probably farther to the left than you, and I'm also a victim. Of many things in the past, a couple of them truly ghastly, and of various things in the present. It's hard to be anything but very rich, very white and very male and not be; and even then you might want to keep a cloaking device or suit of magic armour handy when you're out and about.

As others have said quite well, wishing don't make it so. And wishing it away doesn't make it gone. And pretending things are what they aren't isn't a really good way of changing them.

When Sojourner Truth said "It is to your shame, not mine, that I do this", she did in fact have a "victim mentality". She obviously recognized that she was being victimized. One does not become a non-victim simply by refusing to look in the mirror.

There are loads of things that happened before I was born of which I have been and am a victim. My mother was fired from a govt job in 1950 because she got married. My father was abused by his father. I have been doing genealogical research, and learned of the grinding poverty that some of my fairly recent ancestors lived in, and deaths they died as a result -- victims of everyone who profited from their labour. My very existence is a result of the choices and actions of the people in the direct line down to me, which plainly were circumscribed by the circumstances of their lives. And obviously, who and what and where I am today are affected by those facts, for better and for worse.

To suggest that African-Americans today are not victims of slavery, and of everyone who profited from their ancestors' subjugation, is really very ugly noise. To deny that white USAmericans as a group have profited on the flip side, from the advantages conferred on their ancestors and on themselves by the economic and political circumstances arising out of slavery and evolving to what they are today, would be equally untrue. An individual may not have been victimized by some other identifiable living individual, but still be a victim of acts that occurred at some time or are occurring in some place -- or may not have been the cause of acts that occurred in the past, but still profit from them.

I didn't realize at first that the opening post was going to be specifically about claims of victimization resulting from the institution of slavery. I was reading it through the eyes of someone who has been the victim of some well-known and common kinds of evils, as a child and a woman, and hearing the old familiar admonition that I stop whining. Yup, that will indeed make me and all children and women safe from abuse and assault and exploitation.

And denying the ill effects of slavery on African Americans today will undoubtedly mean that they have equal opportunities the instant they accept that they're not victims of anything, since obviously that victim mentality is the only thing holding them back.

Funny how it doesn't actually work that way, at least not in my experience. One might almost think that there's something to their claims of victimhood. And that it would be very foolish of them to pretend otherwise.

You say: "It is harmful, both to you and to society, to claim 'victimization' from slavery." I'd say that denying reality isn't the best indication of sincere concern about the people adversely affected by it.

[crispini]

155. That is very well put

And of course, the OP has no answer for you. He doesn't seem at all interested in even opening his mind to a contrary point of view.

[iverglas]

159. I didn't read a lot of the thread ...

(as I usually do before jumping in) and the posts of yours and pitohui's I did read made writing one of my own seem redundant ... but I thought what the heck. I really can't believe how anyone on the left in the US can think that way, and somebody might be interested in how it looks to the outsiders.

You may have seen the Cdn apology thread in GD this afternoon -- it's just in our nature, you see. ;) Here are some more:

http://www.indians.org/welker/apology.htm

An Apology to the Aboriginal Peoples of Canada
from The Presbyterian Church of Canada

I believe the United Church and Anglican Church have done the same, despite the potential admission of liability for abuses of Aboriginal children in residential schools in the mid-late 1900s -- ah yes, there's a list of links here:
http://www.turtleisland.org/resources/resources001.htm

http://news.ncmonline.com/news/view_article.html?article_id=0f7a84c6ea087b02622a6b0a9732d197

As our nation debates immigration, Asian Americans might do well to observe our neighbors to the north. True, Asian Americans don’t often think of Canada – for that matter, neither do most Americans.
But for years Chinese Canadians had been pushing for, and now have received, an apology for Canada’s history of racist immigration policies. This reminds us of the role race can play as a country defines its citizenry.

-- and reflection on the meaning of this by an Asian-American.

http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-71-308-1621-10/on_this_day/conflict_war/internment_apology

Today, after 40 years, Prime Minister Brian Mulroney formally apologizes to Japanese Canadian survivors and their families. During the Second World War, 22,000 Japanese Canadians were uprooted from their homes, separated from their families and sent away to camps. Not one was ever charged with an act of disloyalty. Art Miki, of the National Association of Japanese Canadians, calls the apology and $300 million compensation package “a settlement that heals.”

It can be a useful exercise for both parties, to recognize the wrongs done by apologizing for them. It isn't enough in itself (in the cases above, there were symbolic payments with the apologies to Chinese and Japanese victims and funding to the communities, and more substantive reparations to the Aboriginal victims, and obviously reforms could still be needed in some situations if they had not already been effected), but recognition of the harm and the responsibility is the starting point.

[crispini]

164. Exactly. Symbols have power.

Acknowledging that there was/is a problem is a start to healing the problem.

[iverglas]

167. here's one to ponder

No point in offering it to the one who needs it, I guess, but it might be useful to those who don't share that poster's, er, mentality.

http://www.united-church.ca/residentialschools/1998/1027.shtm

1998 Apology to First Nations

To Former Students of United Church Indian Residential Schools, and to Their Families and Communities

... We know that many within our church will still not understand why each of us must bear the scar, the blame for this horrendous period in Canadian history. But the truth is, we are the bearers of many blessings from our ancestors, and therefore, we must also bear their burdens.

I offer it for two reasons:

- the apology was not just to the individuals directly harmed by the practices followed in the residential schools, it was to their families and communities as well, in recognition of the harm done to the groups as a whole by the treatment of individual members;

- the apology explains why it needed to come from the church as a whole.

[iverglas]

160. self-deleted; it told me my post didn't work the first time (n/t)

[Zhade]

110. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

:rofl:

People "further to the left" aren't fundies who think Jesus is needed for everybody, don't post poorly-written (loose? only freepers are THAT bad at spelling) racist bullshit, and aren't generally conservative racist assholes themselves.

You're "further to the left than anyone here" the way I'm the pope.

[rpgamerd00d]

113. Hmm, lets see.

Im an atheist, dating a black woman, vice chair of the Democratic Town Committee of my town, believe in popular vote, single payer health care, reinstatement of Fairness Doctrine and anti-monopoly laws for the media, right for full gay marriage, abortion on demand, abolition of all guns, and think paying taxes for govt programs is great.

Yeah, I'm more to the left that most ppl on this board.

[Midlodemocrat]

128. That is amazing! I had no idea we had clairvoyants on this board!

Ooh, tell me what color shirt I'm wearing...go on....


:eyes:

What a load of fucking crap. I don't care if you are green and dating an alien, your comment is offensive.

[Dora]

40. Forgiveness is an act of personal change. n/t

[fasttense]

25. And you should read my response more carefully.

I was not addressing your entire post. I was addressing the: "just don't think like a victim and the world is your oyster" crap. As is mentioned in my subject line and mentioned in part of your post.

[Marie26]

10. This is a good article,

but I think it's a big mistake to connect it to slavery. "Victim mentality" is an internal state of mind - actual victimization is the result of real social oppression and persecution.

"The solution: In order to eliminate our victim mentality, we must:

1. Start by accepting the reality of the situation instead of trying to achieve the ideal.
2. Find the best choice available within the reality of the circumstances, and then
3. Accept that choice instead of resenting it."

That works well on a personal level, but not on a social level. What would have happened if someone told MLK - accept the reality of segregation, work within those circumstances, and don't try to achieve the ideal of equality? The ideal is what drives social changes and STOPS victimization. On a self-help level, this article makes some valid points. But, IMO, to connect it to societal racism & slavery sounds a little like that Va. legislator who told blacks to "get over" slavery.

[rpgamerd00d]

11. Blacks do need to "get over" slavery.

If the real issue is racism, then say "the issue is racism".

But don't say the issue is slavery. Anyone that still has issues with slavery needs to get over it. Slavery doesn't affect anyone.

Am I arguing semantics? Maybe.
I feel the semantics are important.

And I feel the resolution in VA is bullshit.

[Marie26]

23. So that was the real point

of posting this psycho-babble, wasn't it? It's a response to the outcry against that VA legislator, and a defense of his comments. I feel like you, I, or any other white person has no right to cavilierly tell people to "get over" oppression, enslavement and persecution. The same way a Serbian has no right to tell Bosnians to just "get over" the genocide of their people. The same way a man really can't tell a woman to just "get over" a rape. When you are a member of the class or group that has victimized someone, you really don't get to set the terms of how they should feel about that victimization. To think that you have the right to do so is just another assumption of power.

[rpgamerd00d]

26. You are, of course, totally wrong.

Sorry the article was over your head.

[Virginia Dare]

38. Sorry that symbolic gestures are over yours...n/t

[Marie26]

39. No, I am totally right

Sorry I recognized the real reason that you posted this. You stated it in the subject line - "Blacks need to get over slavery."

[Connie_Corleone]

30. Slavery doesn't affect us?

I tried to do my family tree. I only got so far as the late 1800s. I'll never know about the lives of the rest of my ancestors.

It must be nice to trace your family history all the way back to whatever country they came from.

I don't think of myself as a victim. But, if black people "get over" slavery, we have to "get over" the history of our ancestors and what they went through. It makes me aware of making my life useful so my ancestors didn't die in vain.

[The Straight Story]

137. This may help you some with the family tree thing (congress to act on it):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3134207&mesg_id=3134207

[Sapphire Blue]

32. This post is one of the most offensive that I have ever read on this site.

[rpgamerd00d]

37. Then why are you replying here?

[ProfessorGAC]

69. Perhaps To Let You Know It Was Offensive?

What a silly question? That person didn't say they didn't care. They said it was offensive. If they said they didn't care, then your reply would make sense. But, they said it was offensive, and replying to it is completely logical. Your reply is not.
The Professor

[Sapphire Blue]

73. Because this is where you posted your offensive crap.

[Marie26]

52. It's certainly up there. nt

[Virginia Dare]

33. I know you think the resolution is bullshit...

and I think you are wrong, for all the reasons that I have stated to you before, but let me just say this as a Virginian, this resolution is by far and away more constructive than most of the drivel that comes out of that body of right-wing christian fundy racist misogynists.

[rpgamerd00d]

41. That might well be, I don't live there. I'll take your word for it.

[lukasahero]

79. Let me guess - you're white, right?

'Nuff said.

[rpgamerd00d]

84. Please keep the racism out of my thread, thanks.

[lukasahero]

85. BWAAHAHA!

:rofl: Sorry, did you say that with a straight face?

[rpgamerd00d]

88. Nothing I've said is remotely racist.

[Marie26]

86. LOL!

That might be a little difficult.

[Kerrytravelers]

14. Ah, I see we're back to this topic again:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=3132456#3132690

[MadHound]

15. What a narrow view of history

History effects all of us, everyday, in some way or another. Sure, slavery ended one hundred and forty years ago. However much of that was in name only. This was a Jim Crow, apartheid country until forty-fifty years ago, after the Civil Rights movement, after the Voting Rights Act. And even those legal and moral repudiations of American Apartheid haven't undone the harm that slavery and racism has caused up until this very day. Discrimination still exists, in workplaces, schools, churches, a dark thread that runs through the entire fabric of our society.

Sure, it would be lovely to simply proclaim that slavery is dead and all is well with the world. Unfortunately that can't happen. The legacy of slavery, racism, discrimination, violence, murder, still hangs over us today. Until the day that racism is abolished, and justice rules throughout the land, we're going to have to deal with these issues. Yes, it takes time, yes it is a pain, yes, it makes people uncomfortable. But for the sake of the country's psyche, it has to be done.

You cannot simply wipe out four hundred years of inhumanly brutal treatment in a couple of decades.

[rpgamerd00d]

20. Great. Now, how does VA apologizing for slavery help?

I'd like to see someone answer that.

Because all it does is make the situation worse, as my articles clearly show.

[Marie26]

36. How does South Africa

apologizing for apartheid help? How does the US apologizing for the internment of Japanese-Americans help? Jeez, they need to just get over it!

Except no one says that about those other atrocities. Because we recognize that the apology was a nation's attempt to make up for the past, and prevent violations of human rights in the future. It recognizes the victimized people's essential dignity and right to fair treatment. If we can apologize for interning people for four years, I think an apology for 300 years of enslavement is not out of line.

[Kerrytravelers]

43. And clearly, your articles is the definitive opinion that we must all subscribe to.

Otherwise we're all totally, completely and 100% wrong. Which, of course, makes you totally, completely and 100% correct.

Delusions of grander. Must be nice.


Edited to add:

I can not take having this hateful, racist nonsense on my DU. Blocked.

[Bunny]

135. Delusions of grandeur, indeed.

They make medication for that these days, don't they? :D

[Virginia Dare]

49. This is how..

but I don't expect you to understand.

You see, Virginia is getting ready to celebrate it's 400th Anniversary. Much money, time, and effort has been put into this event. British Royalty will be attending, all sorts of high muckety-mucks will be there to bask in the glory that white christian men brought to this continent.

Guess what, none of us was alive then, so we had jack to do with it, but we're still going to celebrate it, with weeks of commemoration.

This resolution of atonement is just a small symbolic gesture to recognize that while, yes, Virginia was the cradle of Democracy and of vast importance to the creation of this country, it also was largely responsible for the establishment of insitution of the enslavement of Africans in this country, an institution which lasted for over 200 years, and resulted in the exploitation and degradation of 100,000's of human beings, and led to racial injustice, which we are still dealing with today.

[rpgamerd00d]

51. Not exactly an answer to what I asked, but lemme go with it.

Commemorating the end of Slavery, as you say, is a good thing, and I'm all for that. It is definitely good to remember that horrible part of our past, and to commemorate the day we abolished it forever.

But that is not the same as a Resolution of the Legislature issuing an apology for acts of the past.
That was my specific question. How does an apology for acts of the past help, when articles written by psychologists clearly show that it would actually hurt the situation ?

[Virginia Dare]

59. Based on your false premise, it doesn't...

nobody is apologizing to any victims, so it's a moot point.

[rpgamerd00d]

66. Um yeah, they are, read it:

"be it RESOLVED by the Senate, the House of Delegates concurring, That the General Assembly hereby atone for the involuntary servitude of Africans and call for reconciliation among all Virginians;"

[Virginia Dare]

94. Umm, you cherry-picked one line out of the resolution..

and then attack the entire thing it for it's purpose and it's premise.

[Bill McBlueState]

124. that's an interesting point

Mr. Dood's clip says, "resolved ... that the General Assembly hereby atone for the involuntary servitude of Africans"

But there's a "to" clause missing. Nobody gets apologized to, at least not in that quote.

[fishwax]

165. you have articles written by psychologists that clearly show it would hurt the situation?

You should post those. The OP doesn't have articles written by psychologists, nor does it have articles that clearly show an apology would hurt the situation.

[MadHound]

63. Well, first of all, I think that your two articles are POS, nothing personal

But they're not psychological, peer edited works. Hell, look at the authors! The first piece is written by an Icelandic pet store clerk who has no university degree, and your second is written by a communications consultant whose masters was in Interdisciplinary Studies:shrug: Neither really sounds like an expert on victim psychology. I fully realize that one doesn't need a degree to be an expert in a subject, but damn, it sure does help. Looking at these two biographies, I doubt that either person has put in the study and work to become such an expert.

Secondly, apologies, for whatever the offense, are indeed a good thing even if they are way after the fact. Actually many real psychologists and psychiatrists recognize this fact, and recommend it as treatment in appropriate cases. No, it isn't any sort of material help to the victim, but it can be good psychological help for them.

Sorry, but your premise, much like your articles, are full of gaping holes.

[iverglas]

162. got google?

Or just wanting to pretend that no one nowhere no time has ever answered your question long before you typed it here?

It really shouldn't be that difficult to find some answers, so that discussion at DU could maybe start from a point just a teensy bit higher on the evolutionary ladder.

For how it helped and could help in some analogous situations, feel free to read my post 159.

There are so many things in the world to learn, it's hard to imagine how anyone could avoid tripping on them at every turn, let alone pretend they aren't there.

[Captain Hilts]

19. Agreed. Victimization encourages passivity. nt

[fasttense]

29. And frequently leads to behaviors that prevent further victimization. n/t

[Captain Hilts]

44. Yes and no. Being a victim and being victimized are different. nt

[nashville_brook]

47. this thread is frizzy with split hairs

[fasttense]

50. True but you start out as a victim.

You have to think of yourself as a victim first then you can prevent being victimized.

I'm just saying that thinking as a victim has its upside and is the first step to preventing further victimization. They go hand in hand. It is a process you have to go through.

[mongo]

55. Good post

But for folks trapped in whatever -ism they want to feel constantly opressed by, there is power in the group-think of helplesness.

The victim mentality allows you to hate whole classes, genders and races of people while at the same time exonerating the people (who may have been close to you) that have actually transgressed against you.

[Marie26]

75. And on the other hand,

blaming real problems on a "victim mentality" prevents us from having to do anything to solve it.

[distantearlywarning]

56. My personal opinion?

Your cited articles are a load of crap.

That kind of thinking only leads you down the Republican road. When you start assigning the blame for bad things to the mindset of the victim - i.e., if they would just have a positive outlook/pull themselves up by their own bootstraps/conform/speak English/leave New Orleans/stop having babies/blah blah blah, then everything would be puppies and rainbows! - you allow yourself to be complacent about all of the evil and injustice in this world. What you cited here - THIS is why so many Americans looked the other way after Katrina, THIS is why so many people believe the crap Limpballs spews, THIS is why we have to struggle to raise the minimum wage or get universal healthcare - it's because a lot of America believes that a "victim mentality" is the sole cause of every evil in the world, and it allows them to ignore the true causes of every situation.

Seriously, this is bad bad bad. Just reading those cites made me feel sick. Yes, people should be encouraged to stay strong and lift themselves up. But that in no way excuses the rest of us from fighting injustice anywhere. And unfortunately, encouraging people to blame everything on the mindset of the victims is an easy way to excuse ourselves.

Actually, I'm a little shocked that someone posted and advocated this on DU. Please, please reconsider your stance and what you are advocating to other people. This is NOT a good thing. :-(

[rpgamerd00d]

62. I disagree. I think personal responsibility is not a right or left issue.

Its neutral. It applies to everyone.

True victims must (and do) have recourse in our legal system. This isn't about true victims.

This is about someone walking down the street, living their life, and then reading a history book about how there used to be slavery, and then suddenly saying "Hey! I'm a victim! The State should be forced to apologize!"

That is, as you say, NOT a good thing.

[iverglas]

161. have you read Wayward Puritans?

You might want to.

http://depts.clackamas.cc.or.us/banyan/1.1/moss3.htm

In his book, Wayward Puritans, Kai T. Erikson, tells more of what it was like for a Puritan who was uncertain of his or her spiritual status:

Life was a long and often painful search for signs of grace; the seeker had to explore every corner of his own consciousness for signs of conversion, weighing his own thoughts, testing his own moods, probing his every impulse, permitting himself no relief from this self scrutiny for fear that sin would seep into his soul when his guard was down. (51)

In his journal, Massachusetts’s governor, John Winthrop reported how the gnawing uncertainty about one’s salvation could erupt into terrible violence:

A woman of the Boston congregation, having been in much trouble of mind about her spiritual estate, at length grew into utter desperation, and could not endure to hear of any comfort…so as one day she took her little infant and threw it into a well, and then came into the house and said, now she was sure she would be damned, for she had drowned her child… (Erikson 51-52)

... Thus the Puritans made a covenant with God to live according to his will in return for a divine mandate in the New World. ...

... Individual citizens felt a tremendous responsibility for keeping themselves free from sin so that the entire community could be blessed. Illness, disease, crop failure, extreme weather, and Indian attacks were not thought to be the results of bad luck, but rather, the just rewards of sin. Health and prosperity were seen as a clear indication of God’s blessing upon the obedient and righteous. Everything and anything could be seen as a sign or omen.

Because of the fear generated by the belief in predestination, Puritans put a great emphasis on rooting out the sin in their society. They became suspicious not only of their own weaknesses, but also of the weaknesses of their neighbors. ...

These days, it's prosperity theology:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_theology
and there's nothing remotely "left" about it.

It's very "liberal", though, in the purer sense of the word: it's best friends with capitalism.

Everybody is responsible for his/her own good or bad fortune. As simple as that.

Unlike real life.

[Mandate My Ass]

65. Best post on the thread

:applause:

[Marie26]

68. Nailed it.

Great post!

[Pithlet]

70. Excellent post. Don't think you'll convince the OP, though.

This mindset is very difficult to change, and it usually only does after the person holding it has some life altering disaster show them the error of that mindset, and even then that's no guarantee. There are people for whom it's easier to see the burden of the ills of the world placed on the victim because then it absolves them. It's all the victims fault? Great! Now we don't have to do anything about it. It was an excellent effort on your part, though. You said it better than I could have, and we should always counter this asinine argument whenever we see it.

[rpgamerd00d]

77. You sure you're not a neocon? You just blamed me for shit I didn't say.

I'm not calling you one, so Mods, don't delete this post.
I'm just asking, are you sure?
Because that "attack them for something they never said" thing is Karl Rove 101.

[Pithlet]

81. Did you or did you not say black people have to get over slavery?

If so, then my point stands. Did you or did you not essentially say, with your own words and the articles you yourself linked to, that the victim mentality is what holds people back? If so, then I stand by everything I've said. No need to get personal. I didn't tell you to post this stuff. I just fully understand the completely justifiable reaction you're getting to your OP. If you really meant to say was blame the victim mentality is right wing claptrap, and that blacks indeed do not have to get over slavery, and I somehow misread, then I humbly apologize.

[rpgamerd00d]

87. There are no victims of slavery. You claimed I said there were. Thats not true.

I never said any such thing.

[Pithlet]

92. You said blacks need to get over it.

What does whether or not there are actually victims of slavery have to do with it? Since we're talking about it, slavery did indeed happen, did it not? Do you think history is just some fluffy kitten land past where a man in a beard and stovepipe hat threw a switch and all slavery magically disappeared right there and then? That there were no long reaching consequences whatsoever. That only people who were actually owned by slaves were affected, and that those affects also suddenly disappeared when the magic switch was thrown. Believe all that if you want, but don't expect the average, intelligent person to buy it.

But, anyway. You said blacks need to get over slavery. You've said it more than once in this forum. Take your flames that you may or may not have intended, and maybe learn something from them. Or react indignant as if you never expected such an outrageous response to such a warm and fuzzy sentiment.

[rpgamerd00d]

97. Of course they do! They were never affected by it!

That is my entire point of this thread!

Slavery has NOTHING TO DO with the problems that face blacks today.
NOTHING.
0.
Nada.
Ziltch.

The problems that face blacks are from Racism, Intolerance and Ignorance.

But NO!!! Don't blame those! Blame slavery.
Yeah, that'll do a world of good to help Blacks in America achieve equality!
:eyes:

[Pithlet]

102. Where did that racism, intolerance and ignorance come from?

It didn't just bubble forth neatly formed on its own. For the racism, intolerance and ignorance to be so systematic in American society, much more than simple human nature is at play. Such far reaching and society altering institutions like racism were more than likely precipitated by some huge force from the past. Gee. I wonder what that was?

[rpgamerd00d]

106. Look, I do understand your point, I'm not stupid.

All I am saying is that blaming slavery or in this case, apologizing for it, is not just useless, its harmful because there is no recourse for slavery - its in the past, we can't change it, and it only brings up negativity.

Addressing the problems of today that (YES) came FROM slavery, is more important, because there CAN be REDRESS for these issues.

That is what I'm saying.

I acknowledge this is highly semantical, I said that earlier.

[Pithlet]

114. Can't change the past. But you can work to change its effect

on the present and future. I can tell you one good way not to do that, and that is to sow resentment by sounding off what amounts to an f-you by telling the group affected to get over it. Once you've mastered that, another one to tackle is acknowledging the past. That's what the apology you seem so bent on being offended by was doing. You can't change it the past, no. It doesn't mean you sweep it under the rug and act as it if never happened. If you've ever wronged someone, and then attempted that tactic, I'm sure you can remember how well that went over. Just imagine that reaction on a larger scale. Simplistic, I know, but when you come forth with such simplicities as the past no longer matters, then that's what we're dealing with right now. Time to attend to the details, later. If you honestly have good ideas about how to make the situation better, then put forth those ideals. Because it's going to be awfully hard time through all the screaming and yelling after you've delivered your big f-you introduction convincing them that wait, you really do care, and you have some good ideas on how we can all heal.

[rpgamerd00d]

116. Its very important that you address the actual issues, however.

If we want to make changes in our lives and in the lives of others, we have to address the ACTUAL issues, not their ancient historical roots.

Personally, I feel that is the problem in the Middle East - they can't "GET OVER" the fracture that occurred in their past, and they continue to fight over it today! Instead of addressing the problems they currently face.

We can't fall into this same trap! Will we be apologizing for slavery for the next 1000 years?

Blacks were set free. That was the first apology.
Then they were given some rights. That was the second one.
They they were given full equal rights. That was the third one.

Today, they suffer from racism and intolerance. This hasn't been fixed yet, and once we fix it, we owe an apology for it.

[Pithlet]

117. It's not as if

All white people are required to flagellate themselves, verbally or otherwise, about slavery before they're ever allowed to discuss or participate in the changes needed to make the effects of slavery a thing of the past. So, I honestly don't understand why it's so upsetting.

And I don't understand why an apology isn't due until things have been fixed. That doesn't make any sense, either. If anything, I would think it would be an important first step, not just for racism and slavery, but really any time you're working to right a wrong. Since you seem genuinely interested in dialog, I'll leave you exempt from what I'm about to say, but generally people who get all hot and bothered about such apologies when it comes to slavery are people who aren't really interested in smoothing racial relations, to put it one way. It's a big part of the reaction you're getting here today.

[rpgamerd00d]

120. Actually, youre right, I shouldn't have implied the apology needed to wait.

I just got in a typing pattern there.

My entire point is that if we, as a society, are going to address racism, prejudice and intolerance in this country, we can't do it by blaming it on slavery and thinking an official apology will be anything but symbolic.

Hell, most people on DU *ATTACK* politicians that pay "lip service" without doing any real reform to back it up!
It boggles my mind why this "lip service" has so much support behind it.

I am a pretty practical guy. This resolution in VA seems like a monumental waste of time to me, and I think if they wanted to make a symbolic gesture, they should have done it right, and made a political statement that addresses the problems of today, and attacks the conservative ideology of TODAY. Attacking slavery? Sheesh, that is hardly what I'd call "goin out on a limb", politically.

[Pithlet]

123. From your perspective it may seem like a waste of time.

But it's not as if there are a limited number of actions and gestures that can be taken. In other words, this wasn't meant to replace any actions you or others might feel more are effective, but was meant to be taken on its own, at its face value, which was basically "We never apologized for the things we did in any official capacity before, and we should have a long time ago. So now, we're offering that apology now." It hurt absolutely nothing, and had everything to gain so it could hardly be classified logically as a waste of time, and the people who are complaining about it are doing nothing but coming across like fools at best. It would be better to distance yourself away from them as fast as you can if you want anyone to take you seriously in your efforts to come up with solutions. Whether you like it or not, these things do matter to a lot of people, and the best thing to do if you still feel they're a waste of time is to ignore them and get on with whatever you planned to do about it.

[rpgamerd00d]

125. I am a nit-picker by nature. Its just how I am.

If I can prevent the squandering of valuable resources (such as money, a politican's time) on meaningless gestures, and re-apply those resources to things that truly make a difference, I tend to point that out.

That's just my nature.

[Pithlet]

130. And that's not a bad attribute, generally speaking.

I just think you might have misapplied yourself in that manner in starting this thread. Because there was much to be gained, it's easily demonstrable that the resolution wasn't a squandering of valuable resources. It's also a valuable skill to be able to pick the battles that are waged, and know the risks/benefits of waging those battles.

[crispini]

127. I think you have revised your point a little bit.

You write here, "if we, as a society, are going to address racism, prejudice and intolerance in this country, we can't do it by blaming it on slavery and thinking an official apology will be anything but symbolic."

You know, I actually don't have (much) of a problem with your revised post, although I disagree about "symbolic" as I do think that symbols have value and meaning.

I have a LOT more of a problem with your original post, when you go on and on about all of the victim mentality bit. To me, that completely REEKS of the whole "Pull yourselves up by your bootstraps!" right-wing bullshit that the talk radio pundits spout. I think that attitude is what many of the posters on this thread are offended by. You can't pull yourself up by your bootstraps when you have no boots.

[rpgamerd00d]

132. Well, sorry, I just suck at writing.

[crispini]

140. Oh, come on.

Let's just be plain here. It seems to me that in your original post you pretty much laid all the blame on African-Americans for their own situations by blathering on and on about the "victim mentality." And yet NOW you are backing off and saying that it's about the stupid RESOLUTION and how it's a waste of time. What has happened is that over and over again in this thread you are getting called on your bullcrap, and you don't like it, and you are attempting to ignore it by blowing the posters off.

The fact is that SLAVERY -- yes, SLAVERY -- has had an OVERWHELMING economic impact on the descendents of those slaves, and that the after effects of slavery are apparent TO THIS DAY in our society.

Tell me, did your great-grandfather own property? Was he educated? Did he have a good trade?

[rpgamerd00d]

142. None of that is true. but thanks for the accusation, that fosters discussion.

:sarcasm:

[crispini]

146. See, there you go again, ignoring my point.

"From the moment you were born, slavery has had no effect on your life." you write in the original post.

Over and over again, I and others in this thread have attempted to point out to you how SLAVERY has had an overwhelming ECONOMIC impact on the descendents of those slaves, and you persist in IGNORING our posts.

Once again I ask you, did your great-grandfather own property? Was he educated? Did he have a good trade?

Mine did. And I see the benefits of the property he bought and his education every day in MY life. The money my great-grandfather accumlated has enable me to get an education and a well-paying job.

However, if my great-grandfather had been a slave, he would have BEEN property, instead of buying property to hand down to his grandchildren.

[Karenina]

145. WOW!!!

The Holocaust has NOTHING TO DO with the problems that face Jews today.
NOTHING.
0.
Nada.
Ziltch.

The problems that face Jews are from Racism, Intolerance and Ignorance.

Your posts show us all who and what you are. Danke. Tschüß! :hi:

[Midlodemocrat]

133. You're not paying attention.

He's more LIBERAL than anyone on this board, because he says he is and therefore, WE don't understand his post.


:sarcasm: and :eyes:

[dogindia]

67. DEEPLY IMPORTANT DISCUSSION FOR VICTIMS OF CHILDHOOD ABUSE.

It is very hard to resolve childhood pain. One recreates it in the current life no matter how old one is. One can work very hard. But it is extremely difficult even though one has forgiven all the parties. One has made real strides in one's own life. Great problems come back. I think this is the number one problem in all cultures as far as interpersonal relationship......and happiness.

[mongo]

173. Exactly.

But too many people on this board are bound and determined to turn their anger outward onto society and men in particular to even look at this paradigm.

[walldude]

74. Wow this sounds just like Michael Savages claims

that all those victims are stealing his "white heterosexual Christian birthright". Yes the winners need to unite to fight off those victims they are really screwing everything up. :eyes:

[fishwax]

76. I think the second article makes some interesting points, though I'm not sure how it relates

to slavery or to an apology for slavery.

I think the first article is bunk--I'm glad it worked for the author, but I think it's absurd to suggest that the secret to happiness is to "never ever never feel sorry for yourself." That's just crap, and it's crap made all the less convincing by a questionable timeline (she only had four sessions with the therapist because she died shortly thereafter--last april--and yet the author hasn't felt sorry for herself for years?) and the loose/lose grammatical error in the list of characteristics of victims and non-victims. If it worked for her, I'm all for it, but it falls far short of a cogent argument that everyone should live their lives that way, and is simply absurd as an argument about how society should determine social policy.

As for the second article, I think it raises some interesting points in terms of difficult interpersonal relationship situations, despite the misrepresentation of the story of Sojourner Truth (who actually bared her breast to the crowd at a rally in Indiana, not at I don't, however, see that as inconsistent with continuing to strive for the ideal, which is (rather arbitrarily, I think) labeled "victim mentality." And always accepting that the ideal is forever impossible--even if it's difficult or impossible now--is, imo, a poor strategy for getting what you want out of life in the long run.

And as for how it relates to an issue like an apology for slavery, well, that's a fatally large leap in logic, that fails to recognize the difference between an individual person and society as a whole.

Addressing the points you raised:

In a relationship, it is bad to bring up incidents from your significant others' past during an argument. Your SO cannot change the past. If you constantly bring up their past and blame them for it, they have no recourse. They cannot change it, and if you keep bringing it up, all you will do is continuously cause them pain. Once you forgive your partner for something, it is absolutely critical that you never bring it up again.

I don't see how this analogy helps your case--has slavery been forgiven? If an individual wishes to be forgiven, so as not to be battered over the head with past mistakes, isn't an apology the appropriate place for that individual to start? One can't simply expect forgiveness based on the passage of time, right?

And I'm not sure that it's really true that, once forgiven, it must never be brought up again. Imagine Joe and Jane are married, and Joe cheats on Jane. Imagine that, after an apology and some serious emotional stress, Jane forgives Joe. A few months later, Joe has another affair. You're saying it's unfair for Jane to bring up this other incident, since it's been forgiven, even though it now is worth investigating as a pattern of behavior?

As I've said, I don't think we can surmise a one-to-one correlation between individual relationships to societal scenarios, but if we are to apply lessons from the process of interpersonal forgiveness and reconciliation, then it seems to me what we ought to take from that is that reconciliation is not possible without forgiveness, that forgiveness is not possible without an acknowledgement of wrong, and reconciliation is unlikely without some modification of behavior.

As the resolution states: "WHEREAS, in the Commonwealth, home to the first African slaves, the vestiges of slavery are ever before African American citizens, from the overt racism of hate groups to the subtle racism encountered when requesting health care, transacting business, buying a home, seeking quality public education and college admission, and enduring pretextual traffic stops and other indignities; and

WHEREAS, European and African nations have apologized for their roles in what history calls the worst holocaust of humankind, the Atlantic Slave Trade, and racial reconciliation is impossible without some acknowledgment of the moral and legal injustices perpetrated upon African Americans; and

WHEREAS, an apology for centuries of brutal dehumanization and injustices cannot erase the past, but confession of the wrongs can speed racial healing and reconciliation and help African American and white citizens confront the ghosts of their collective pasts together"

But History does have a value. The value of History, is Knowledge. The saying "Never Forget" implies the need to use past knowledge in a way that prevents the mistakes of the past from repeating themselves. But in doing so, one must be careful not to use the past as a "weapon" against which no one has a possible defense.

First, the wrongs aren't being used as a weapon against individuals. Second, it seems to me, given the enormous history of egregious wrongs committed by this country against its black citizens, that reminding the society as a whole of these wrongs in an attempt to inspire them to action is not at all embracing a victim mentality, but rather embracing the empowerment outlined in article 2. Accepting the reality that blacks are not treated as equal citizens in our society, this strategy then makes the best of the situation by attempting to raise awareness and inspire reconciliation.

To use Slavery to make some kind of claim to "righteousness" or "justice" clearly indicates that you have fallen into a Victim Mentality (from above). Slavery only exists today as knowledge. It only exists in a history book. From the moment you were born, slavery has had no effect on your life. It is harmful, both to you and to society, to claim "victimization" from slavery.

I'm not sure what you mean by using slavery as a claim to righteousness or justice, and the issue is not about being victimized by being literally enslaved, but by being victims of the continued legacy of slvaery, the residual effects and attitudes of which continue to wield a major impact on our society today. There are real victims, as the second article points out. The Holocaust may have been over in 1945, but that doesn't mean the suffering stopped. It isn't a "victim mentality" to acknowledge that what happened in the '40s will continue to influence jews and gentiles for generations.

Forcing today's society to apologize for the actions of a past society does nothing except magnify the victim mentality of those that choose to victimize themselves.

I don't see that as the case at all. I don't see why the Virginia government acknowledging and apologizing for mistakes that IT made (not some "past" society, but that very institution) magnifies victimhood.

[rpgamerd00d]

80. Its because slavery is no longer the issue, prejudice and intolerance are.

Its the same exact thing as if a criminal shoots you with a gun, and you sue the maker of the gun.

The problem was the criminal, they are to blame.

Slavery existed. Slavery ended.
Other problems emerged (racism, prejudice, intolerance) and THOSE are the issues that plague us, and THOSE are the issues that need fixing.
Bringing slavery up is completely nonsensical.

[walldude]

89. So then I take it you are willing to let George Bush

finish out his term without any investigations, impeachment proceedings, or any kind of reparations for all the wonderful things he's done in office? I guess I should just get over it and move on right?

[rpgamerd00d]

90. Of course not, are you crazy?

Your strawman is retarded!

[walldude]

99. It's your strawman I used, that bother you a little?

Quote

"Slavery existed. Slavery ended.
Other problems emerged (racism, prejudice, intolerance) and THOSE are the issues that plague us, and THOSE are the issues that need fixing.
Bringing slavery up is completely nonsensical."

How is that any different than not dealing with what Bush has done in the past and just dealing with what's wrong right now? Please explain.

[rpgamerd00d]

104. Bush is alive and can be held accountable.

Those responsible for slavery are not.

I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

[walldude]

112. So as long as the person who kept your ancestors

in chains is dead then you need to get over it. So the Jews should get over the Holocaust. The Christians should get over the crucifixion, The Iraqi's should just get over Saddams tyranny, etc, etc. But never mind all that. Let's say you are right. I'd like you to find me one black person who is using "slavery" as a victim mentality. Not racism, not predjudice, not intolerance, but slavery. Find me a black person who is saying that slavery is the cause of their problems. Not what slavery has caused (racism, predjuice, intolerance) but slavery itself. Seems to me the only people saying that blacks are using slavery to be portrayed as victims are.. white, heterosexual Christian men, who's birthright all these lower forms of life are trampling on.

[rpgamerd00d]

115. The resolution in VA does.

They could have easily made it about ending racism, prejudice and intolerance.
They didn't.
They chose slavery.

[walldude]

121. The resolution in Va, Donald McEachin, D-Henrico County.

"No one is asking any individual to apologize, because certainly there are no slaveholders alive today and there are no slaves alive today,” said McEachin, whose great-grandfather was born a slave.
“But Virginia is alive and well, and Virginia was built on the backs of slaves, and Virginia’s economy boomed because of slavery, and it is Virginia that ought to apologize,” he said.

Looks to me like the guy who brought up the resolution isn't claiming any kind of victimhood, looks to me like exactly the opposite. Looks to me like he just wants it on record that Slavery is not acceptable and that the state of Virgina will never allow slavery to be legal again.

Got anything else? I'm still waiting to see all these "victim mentality's" you are talking about.

[fishwax]

158. they didn't emerge in a vacuum

they evolved directly from the institution of slavery. It isn't nonsensical to bring up slavery, because they are intimately historically connected.

The issue of the apology isn't to "fix" slavery, but to start the process of reconciliation between different groups of society. Apologies aren't about righting wrongs.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

83. So have you actually read Sojourner Truth?

Because it seems to me she didn't exactly get over slavery.

[DrunkenMaster]

91. Congratulations!

This may be the post with the thinnest veneer of shine over it's rotten, racist core that I've read on DU!

Ding! DIng! Ding! You WIN!

[rpgamerd00d]

93. Its not even remotely racist in the slightest.

[DrunkenMaster]

96. bullshite

Your total denial of the historical, economic and sociological impacts of the enslavement of Africans is exactly that: racist. It's idiotic, myopic and based on a world view that refuses to acknowledge the very actual realities still in play at this moment.

Ugh. You just made my ignore list.

[rpgamerd00d]

98. So, to you, talking about blacks in any way is racist? Hmm, sounds racist to me.

[DrunkenMaster]

105. what a stupid response

I never said talking about any race in any way was racist. I said that your post was racist becasue it ignores the very real historical, social and cultural effects of slavery.

.

[rpgamerd00d]

109. No, it doesnt!! OMFG! Read everything!

I said specifically that slavery might be the CAUSE of Racism, Hate, Intolerance, but that doesn't mean we address Racism Hate and Intolerance by apologizing for SLAVERY!

This is so simple, I can't understand why people aren't getting it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

95. Buuuullllshit! History is not static, it's a continuum.

Good lord, history from a self-help book.

Slavery didn't just happen, nor did the effects of it end with the Emancipation Proclamation. And, we are all "victims" of the slavery that took place in this country. The "white superiority" "black inferiority" mentality still exists and it is derived from slavery.

There were white slaves when this country started. At first, the white and black slaves were treated pretty much equally. It was the fear of the white slaves and white underclass combining to resist a corrupt system that hatched the idea of "black inferiority", that the black slaves were savages "rescued" from paganism and barbarism and better off being slaves. This led to, not only, the use of human beings as disposable tools but, even more insidiously the white "paternalism" of the slave holders. In order to perpetuate the system the black slaves had to be seen as inferior in all respects. They were depicted as "lazy", "ignorant", "thieving", "irresponsible", "unfeeling", etc. This was so the white slaveholders could justify the brutality as "discipline" and "helpful". They could sell troublesome slaves "down the river" to almost certain death in the cane fields. They could pass laws against educating slaves because they were "too ignorant" to appreciate the subtleties of education and would make them uppity.

To imagine that those attitudes about blacks don't persist in our society is bury one's head in the sand. To say "just get over it" and give up "victimization" is to ignore history and the effects of slavery that persist to this very day.

To apologize for what white society did to millions of blacks is not to "add to a victim mentality", but to finally acknowledge that the "particular institution" was much more than, and quite different than, what we would like to brush it off as.

Are we, as individuals, "responsible" for what some of our ancestors (I'm the son of an immigrant) did? No. Are we responsible for the lingering racism that certainly exists as a result of it? Yes.

Or, as someone else asked, "Am I my brothers keeper?"

[walldude]

103. LMAO.. "History From A Self-Help" book

The Tony Robbins historical method for solving all your problems! :rofl:

[Bluebear]

100. 'Victim mentality' = code for GET OVER IT! nt

[rpgamerd00d]

101. No its not, I actually said "Get over it" when I meant "Get over it"

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warren DeMontague]

119. Can you provide actual examples of this so-called "entitlement" that the issue of slavery engenders?

Lemme take a wiiiiiiiiiild guess. Welfare queens drinking expensive vodka and eating bon-bons and taking limos to pick up their checks, maybe?

What a crock. An apology for slavery is well overdue. It's a stain on the conscience of this nation.

[NorthernSpy]

126. wait a sec... aren't you the one who says that Japan doesn't owe us an apology for Pearl Harbor?

I wonder what would happen if you went down to the VFW hall and told them all about your special "insights" re Pearl Harbor and victimhood and apologies.

:popcorn:


But I guess that's one show we'll never get to see. Taking anonymous cheapshots at blacks is more your thing (it's certainly a safer activity).

So I'll just have to remind you that how blacks perceive themselves in relation to their collective history is simply none of your business. It's not up to you to dictate other people's states of mind.

[rpgamerd00d]

129. They dont.

Do you think Osama bin Laden's children should be held accountable for his acts?

They didn't do anything, yet you seem to think they owe you an apology for 9/11.

[NorthernSpy]

147. Oh, gawd! You really don't understand the difference between a state and an individual person?

Do you think Osama bin Laden's children should be held accountable for his acts?

They didn't do anything, yet you seem to think they owe you an apology for 9/11.

Governments* are undying entities. The entity known as Virginia that established and defended the enslavement of millions of people is the same entity known as Virginia whose servants may eventually get around to apologizing for its actions. The mortal persons involved in the functioning of the entity change, and sometimes they change the entity's operating rules. But the entity itself remains: Virginia is still Virginia.

Osama bin Laden, however is a mortal person, and his descendents are also mortal persons. The only thing resembling an undying entity in that case would be al Qaeda. Are you trying to say that at some time in the distant future, when none of the al Qaeda members involved in 9/11 are still alive, that the organization itself will then have clean hands with regard to its actions in the early 21st Century?

Because if we follow your line of reasoning, that's what we arrive at.





*(edited to add...) Yes, I know that the statement should read that states are the undying entities, while governments themselves are more transitory arrangements generated by states.

[NorthernSpy]

149. (... and by "undying" or "immortal", I mean *highly persistent*...)

States can eventually die. But boy, are they hard to kill!

[crispini]

151. Very well said.

:thumbsup:

[rpgamerd00d]

156. So, you're saying that entities never change?

The Democratic Party is full of conservatives, right?
Because it started out that way, and the Republican Party was the party of Liberals.
And over the years, ideologies changed, and now they are reversed.

You are ready to claim that the al Qaeda of 200 years from now will still be a terrorist organization. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. If they are not, however, and are a peaceful group, who changed their ways and became a benefit to society, would you feel its right for future people to dredge up 9/11, slap it in their face, and demand an apology for it?

Thats wrong.

[crispini]

131. I suspect that you, sir, have at least one thing in common with George Bush.

As Molly Ivins said, "Born on third base and thinks he hit a triple."

[Rex]

134. Interesting opinion.

Never thought about Reparations like that. What do you think about Native American casinos? Do you consider them an entitlement?

[DireStrike]

138. But slavery still does affect us today

The inequalities caused as a direct result of black Americans' ancestors being slaves still exist today.

It makes no sense to say the two issues are not related. How do you begin to address inequality without acknowledging such a large contributing factor? If you fixed every other problem, blacks would still be behind anyway.

While current generations may not have caused the problem, we still live with the results - inequality. Just changing mentality will not fix the problem, all other things being equal. Perhaps eventually things will even out, but assuming both sides have a "winner" mentality, both will grow at the same rate.

[rpgamerd00d]

139. I never said they werent related. I don't know where you get that from.

Slavery was the root of current Racism.

Current problem? Racism.
What do we need to address? Racism.
What does the resolution address? Slavery.

That was my only point.

[blonndee]

141. Just a little jump in here: maybe the poster got the idea from your post

here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3140018&mesg_id=3140116

[rpgamerd00d]

143. Doesn't say it there, either.

:wtf:

[blonndee]

144. Or here, maybe.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3140018&mesg_id=3140716

[kwassa]

170. Cause and effect

"Slavery was the root of current Racism.

Current problem? Racism.
What do we need to address? Racism.
What does the resolution address? Slavery.

That was my only point."

They travel together, not separately. Current racism stems from historic slavery, cause and effect. This resolution recognizes that relationship, particularly in a still backwards and racist state like Virginia.

Many living African-Americans have personally experienced the effects of Jim Crow, the campaign of terror that stripped rights from them that started in Reconstruction in the 1870s, and didn't end legally until the Voting Rights Act of 1965. Legal right were restored in 1965, though many were not enforced for years afterwords, and some still aren't.

The legacy of racism has been segregation in housing and jobs, which impacts largely on wealth accumulation. In other words, black people have been kept poor through government action.

[Catherine Vincent]

150. You should have posted this thread in the African American forum.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

153. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[walldude]

157. Dim bulb? Morons who don't get it?

You come on here with a right-wing style post about whining victims, yet you have not produced a single link to a black person saying that they personally are a victim of slavery. The only one you provided was the Virgina Resolution and I easily shot that one down with a direct quote from the bill's sponsor.

[Karenina]

166. Please don't give him any ideas

(on how to offend and create further division). :wow:

[Madspirit]

152. even worse

Even worse than victim mentality is blame the victim or diss the victim or don't acknowledge the damage done to the victim or the mental illness/depression/PTSD that results.

"Pick-yourself-up-by-the-bootstraps-and-ignore-the-pain".... Wow...did I do a Bizarro World thing and end up at Ann Coulter's website because this is EXACTLY what they say. I lurk there because I am creating a website making fun of them. They have this thread over there...right now. Almost exactly. ...and in response to the same thing, the motion to apologize for slavery.

What garbage. Some people are so wounded they can't just cowboy up. ...and your defensiveness on this subject as proved by your bringing it all the way to another thread, makes me really suspicious and kind of scared of you.

...and OBVIOUSLY slavery still has an impact. It's called a massively un-level playing field.
Madspirit

[Manifestor_of_Light]

171. There are MANY forms of discrimination

and they are NOT recognized legally.

I've been discriminated against because I am female, because I am short, because I am overeducated, because I wear glasses all the time, because I am over forty, because mediocre people see me as a threat.....there are lots of reasons and many of them are legal and the ones that are illegal are very hard to prove in court.

Just because I'm white and educated does NOT mean I have any power in the economy. I cannot MAKE someone give me a job, no matter how qualified I am. Let me repeat that: I cannot MAKE someone give me a job, no matter how qualified I am.

So I'm unemployed and all that education means nothing, because America is where mediocrity is rewarded.

Having said that, black people are still disproportionately in jail, have more medical problems and lower life expectancy than whites, are in poverty, and get pulled over for driving while black, on and on. This is the legacy of slavery that is STILL with us. The abandonment of the poor folks in New Orleans during Katrina. All these things are still with us. Legal slavery isn't, but it resonates today.

[BoneDaddy]

163. Yep

but the victim mentality is alive and well in America.

[walldude]

168. Yes it does..

Christians, Republicans, white heterosexual males, all victims of liberalism and the horrors they perpetrate on an unsuspecting public.

[BoneDaddy]

172. I include them as

well as the rest of the whiners in this world.

[Book Lover]

169. Tangential yet relevant

http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2006/

http://www.freetheslaves.net/

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/09/23_16691.shtml

I know this does not directly relate to your post exhorting Black Americans to "get over" the history and aftermath of institutionalized slavery, but I thought it would do you good to have your bubble-headed notion that "{s}lavery is something from the past" burst.

[iverglas]

174. here's an interesting one

From the freetheslaves link -- thanks for those.

http://freetheslaves.net/2006/11/09/brown-university-slavery/

Brown University releases a report on their links to slavery in the 18th century. This research and transparency should motivate other institutions to investigate past (and present) connections to the enslavement of others.

Interestingly enough, the report finds that as an institution, Brown never actually owned or traded slaves. But the Brown family did. And boardmembers were directly involved in the slave trade. Some of the labor that went into campus construction was slave labor - donated by university supporters.

Hmm. Whose children and grandchildren profited from that donation? And whose descendants are now profiting from the educations acquired at that institution? (Even, obviously, if they themselves did not own slaves; they benefited.) And whose didn't and aren't? Whose ancestors were able to pass on *nothing* to their families?

Yup, nobody alive today is a victim of that practice, nobody at all.

As that report says:

This theme – benefits from goods or services provided by slaves without actual ownership of slaves- continues to this day.