I don't buy into the crap that Iraq is responsible for its own wretched situation

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

The US bombed the shit out of Iraq, tortured, raped, Willie-peted and killed its citizens, destroyed its infrastructure and economy, two million people are fleeing or have fled, and US/UK oil companies are now poised to steal most of Iraq's oil profits.

The US is responsible for Iraq's wretched situation. It supported Saddam when it was convenient, and it shocked and awed the country into the civil war that we see today.

I wish politicians from both parties would get off that "blame Iraq" bandwagon, which is a throwback to America's favorite pasttime of blaming the victim during civil rights marches, women's rights movements, and anti-Vietnam war demonstrations. The US government is the exclusive fuck-up in Iraq and Afghanistan. I consider any attempt to pass that sceptor of blame onto the Iraqis to be a bigoted gesture. The Iraqis are trying to survive day to day with what's left from the US military onslaught not to mention 10 years of economic sanctions.

Put yourself in their shoes.

[meegbear]

1. Which Dems said "Iraq is responsible for its own wretched situation"?

And Lieberman doesn't count.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

3. Hillary Clinton

and I paraphrased, which I think you realize, or maybe you don't.

[LaurenG]

5. consider the source

:)

[meegbear]

9. I didn't ...

since you brought it up, what exactly did she say then?

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

14. I don't have her exact words

As I have told you, I paraphrased.

It is unfortunate that Sen. Hagel is promoting the same misperception. I love seeing dems and repubs work together for a change, but not when they hoist up ridiculous notions at the expense of a tortured broken country in an effort not to hurt the losing team's pampered ego.

[meegbear]

22. Oh OK, thanks for the insight

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

23. Let me be the first to tell you

You're on "ignore."

[Strawman]

4. I thought it was pretty implicit in Durbin's speech

He did not use those words literally, but I think it's disingenuous to pretend that wasn't the message.

That being said, if that's the language that ends our involvement in this war, at this point, I think Iraqis will take that over political correctness. However fucking dumb and intellectually dishonest it is.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

11. Americans can then go their merry way

patting themselves on the back for "a job well done," and with a shrug say, "We did everything we possibly could to help Iraq, but the Iraqis just didn't want to help themselves. Let's go find another country to 'help.'"

The US needs nationwide intensive therapy to break itself from its self-deluded "shit hot" image, which gets this country into trouble every time a demagogue in the WH prostitutes the nation's ego. Intellectual honesty is in order now. Americans should admit we got our Goliath asses kicked by Iraq's David and head home to repair whatever damage can be repaired.

[Strawman]

13. I agree with that

but do the Iraqis have time to wait for us to learn this lesson?

We have to end this war in the political language we have now. Right now.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

15. I have always agreed with Barbara Lee

Why is the obvious answer always the first to be dismissed out of hand?

[Strawman]

28. America as the "good guy" is a powerful meta-narrative

in the public mind. It is the job of critically minded people to critique that. We have to work to give that language some currency among the public at large.

But it is Dick Durbin's job to end the killing using the best possible langauge he can. To an extent, he has to be a sophist. That's an impure position, but I believe it. People's lives can't wait on that sort of transformation in the American public's collective understanding of US hegemony especially when you are asking people to accept blame. Maybe someday our politicians will be able to use more just and honest langauge about ourselves. I just don't think we have turned that corner.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

31. I understand what you're saying.

I never believed there were WMD in Iraq, you most likely didn't, which makes us both smarter than Bush's god, but what does that say about the other 85% of the population?

Maybe now is not the time for a national consciousness-raising, but I've been waiting 3 decades for the bulk of Americans to turn that corner. They are so easy to manipulate and exploit, with "feel good" platitudes and constant fear mongering. If anything is a "cakewalk," it's the repeated corporate robbing of the public's collective kitty.
I think it's to the Iraqi people's credit that they aren't so easily "led."

[Strawman]

33. I know

It's ugly. It's the resignation of saying "so be it" to an imperfect, fucked, still unjust and unresolved, but comparatively better political situation. I don't mean to come off as an apologist for the Dick Durbin's and Hillary Clinton's of the world, (even though here I clearly am doing so). I'd much prefer to critique their language. I found Durbin's address galling, but to some extent I understand the need for leaders with huge responsibilities to have somewhat dirty hands.

What it says is that we have work to do to change our public discourse and we can't count on insider elites in the Democratic party to do it for us. They're followers of public opinion, not leaders. I don't think George W. Bush is the embodiment of the national consciousness, but like all politicians he is an effective manipulator of the political langauge we have. Cosmpolitian political langauge might not yet be robust enough to rely upon to compete against nationalistic langauge in a battle over public opinion that has so much riding on it.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

36. The current political language is so pedestrian, it's stone age

I especially agree with this comment:

...we can't count on insider elites in the Democratic party to do it for us. They're followers of public opinion, not leaders.

Maybe they're planning to wean the public gradually from its fix of constant fear. I feel Kerry attempted to do that in his campaign, and he offered up a tad of intellectual challenge to voters as well, simplifying without being condescending (Bush is condescending). When you take money away from education/limit scholarships/raise interest rates on college loans, I suppose "pedestrian" is the natural outcome.

We'll have to wait and see how this political dance plays out. It's why people say they don't pay attention to politics, but heck, life, death, and national security depend on politics. People had better start getting interested.

PS Clinton knows the military voted for the dem party, so the strategy is probably to do anything but antagonize that vote.

[undergroundpanther]

20. And who the

Fuck was bush trying to be the discipliner and teacher of this so called "lesson"? Bush the arrogant fuck head wants to teach Iraq a lesson..? What a morally depraved ASSHOLE.

“Was there ever any domination that did not appear natural to those who possessed it?”
]John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) Economist and Philosopher.

And to bullies that dominate others ,they will try to make the world into their own imagined image, dominate until the target suffers and becomes like the bully to appease the piece of shit,..And if the target resists submission they are now labeled enemies and scapegoats and made to suffer more.
Bush is into domination and submission games and acts out his sick fantasies he is addicted to(Armageddon and commercialism and US markets are"freedom) as he imposes his will on other countries peoples.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

26. The democrats have no business abetting or benefiting from Bush's neurosis

Bush has a mental disorder which must be called what it is, and treated, first by removing the affected person from the highest position in the land, not touting him as the national consciousness-- of victim blaming.

[zanne]

2. I think we all know that.

We're just pretending we don't. After all, we can't blame ourselves, can we?

[hippiechick]

6. The US's position ...

... is very similar to starting your neighbor's house on fire, then telling them it's their fault and expecting them to put it out.

Iraq didn't ask us to take down Saddam and install 'democracy'.
They didn't invite our Shock and Awe.
The arms inspectors were doing just fine, thank you.
We shouldn't have done what we did.
And we sure as hell can't blame the faux-Iraqi government and expect them to fix it.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

17. Well said!

I agree.

[Supersedeas]

19. I follow that.

[undergroundpanther]

7. Same old bully tactics..

Just like telling a woman who was raped it's her fault shouldn't have worn that dress or been out at night.

The hatred of victims be it a country or a person who's been hurt by an asshole or an asshole policy, than **BLAMING the victim for being hurt,and than telling the hurting person to NOT EXPRESS pain, is what bullies DO to avoid having to ADMIT the bully himself is responsible for the victims pain and suffering the bully chose to do to the victim than caused to happen to the victim .**


Always it is the bully CHOOSES to cause this hypothetical victim to suffer trauma .It is the Bullies responsibility totally.

In the case of Iraq bush is blaming Iraqis for HIS choices to do harm against another country. BUSH CHOSE to make war for no goddamn reason other than greed or sadism or ego..So the Iraqi people suffer worse now because BUSH HURT THEIR COUNTRY AND PEOPLE..and to get himself off the hook and claim 'not my fault'like all bullies do Bush throws blame back at the Iraqis and encourage others to throw HATE twords the victims. Bullies often cry "victim mentality" to smear victims to shut them up,to make them act as if they are not in pain by shaming the already wounded.. and bullies make up an elaborate justifications for being assholes.


Bush is doing this blame the victim, because he chose to hurt Iraq he knew he could make war and he still thinks he can get away with this sadistic game if he spins a web of blame and lies so people forget this is bush's war of CHOICE A bullies hurtful CHOICE Bush caused Iraq to suffer americans and iraqis to die,to be tortured....

I fucking HATE all bullies.and I DO BLAME BUSH for Iraq's suffering, I blame RUMSFELT and all the NEOCON assholes because they are all bullies making excuses for their bad choices and I HATE BULLIES.

[raccoon]

12. You said that right. nt

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

18. Hillary and Chuck are saying that if the Iraqis don't repair this mess

the US will not support them anymore!

What the hell kind of support did we give Iraq when we dropped Daisy Cutter bombs and white phosphorus on civilian populations (and then lied about it)?

What are Hillary and Chuck talking about--help? In what way did we help Iraq?

[undergroundpanther]

24. I think the Iraqis would be better off without

Our "support" telling them how to live.

They do NOT want what our country has. They have to work out thesectrarian violence with the UN. Not Bush because bush just wants to remold thier country into his own image.

[John Q. Citizen]

8. Yes, I agree with you. n/t

[Waya]

10. Of course, it is the Iraqi's fault .......

......if they would just do it as we want them to do it - well, there wouldn't be any problem, would there? If they would just fork over the oil, let their Country be swamped with McDonald's, KFC, Wendy's, Wal-Mart and Target and if they would just bow down and admit that the US and the American Way is always right - they wouldn't have this mess in their Country now, would they? How dare they be so stubborn and wanting to do it their own way after we have sacrificed so much to bring them Freedom and Democracy? Ungrateful wretches!:sarcasm:

[undergroundpanther]

16. Yep..

“The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community,
against his will, is to prevent harm to others.
His own good, either physical or moral, is not a sufficient warrant.”
John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) Economist and Philosopher,

“Was there ever any domination that did not appear natural to those who possessed it?”
]John Stuart Mill (1806-1873) Economist and Philosopher



The goal of abusive people, at work or at home, is to gain or maintain power over others and/or to mask their own incompetence.

Fuck you Bush!

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

27. Quotes to vote by

Thanks.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

21. Why won't those damn Iraqis allow themselves to become the service workers

of the American/British occupiers, while the US/UK corporate bosses rob them blind of their own natural resources?

It's a puzzlement! :sarcasm:

[Waya]

29. Oh, absolutely.......

....there's no shame in being America's/Britain's Slaves. Lots of Countries do it every day and happily, eh? But, no, Iraqi's have to be willful, stubborn and picky about it.
It's an outrage, really! Can't quite wrap my mind around it. Isn't it better to be occupied but have peace than to have chaos and selfrespect?

:sarcasm:

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

32. That's right! If you have democracy and a self-appointed protector

isn't that akin to nirvana?

[Rosa Luxemburg]

25. The US put Saddam in and then took him out

The Bush administration was interested in feathering their nests from plundering oil rich countries or where they can run pipelines. The sooner this Congress curbs this sort of activity the better.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

30. The dems are starting w/K Street

a very good place to start!

[Jeffersons Ghost]

34. K&R

[Usrename]

35. Another K&R

[GeorgeGist]

37. Is it not true...

that the Iraqi's could stop killing each other whether you like it or not?

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

43. I would like all people around the world to stop killing each other

You?

The US had a civil war, killing 640,000 of themselves, and it didn't take an invasion from a foreign entity to destabalize the country and create insurrection. Southerns thought they were hot stuff and could kick the federal govt's ass, so they attacked. In many ways, that civil war is still going on, and it has expanded beyond US borders. Yeah, I wish the killing would stop. That's why I'm here.

Americans are hardly qualified to lecture Iraqis on the evils of civil war (the Confederate flag still flies, does it not?), nor are they so morally upstanding that they can blame Iraqis if they care to engage in one.

[blues90]

38. I have felt that way since the beginning of this horror .

All I hear since we bombed the hell out of Iraq after their mad shock and awe campaign of horror is this let the Iraqis fix this mess .

They did nothing nore did they invite us or ask to be a democracy .

Now all I hear is let them have their civil war until they decide they have killed enough of eachother . Well we started this .

Yes the best thing would have been never to start this in the first place and now they want to pull the troops out which I can't disagree with since they never could and still can't tell who the so called enemy is .

What have we done and how will this ever be fixed , it will never be forgotten by the Iraqis people but it will be forgotten by the US people one fine day as always .

I never could get it into my head what the point of killing and destroying nations and land solved . All the work and time it took to build these countries and it takes a few years to level it to rubble and billions to rebuild it and then bury all the dead along with all the people who lost family and friends .

Now Vietnam after all the damage and death becomes a trade partner for the fucked up USA .

Yes , I am truly ashamed to be an american and truly feel guilty to be alive and spared from all of this . I am not a killer however I feel just as guilty as if I helped do this myself even though I never voted for bush or supported this attack .

[roody]

39. I agree 100%.

Vilsack said something similar on Jon Stewart, something condescending like "culture of dependence." He lost me immediately.

[LibDemAlways]

40. All the politicians and commentators who are playing the

blame Iraq game are the ones who were the biggest proponents of this disaster.

I rarely watch the so-called network "news" but I happened to catch a CBS report on Iraq tonight and there was lots of footage of US soldiers with weapons drawn bursting into homes and going through people's personal belongings - opening and poking through drawers while the occupants crouched in terror. Imagine the reactions of Americans to home invasions by foreign troops, and yet this is presented to the American people as though it's acceptable. It's not acceptable. Under Bush our military is being misused and we've become a rogue state.

It certainly isn't the Iraqi people's fault that repukes on the Supreme Court handed the Presidency to a madman. It's ultimately the fault of morons who voted for Bush out of ignorance and stupidity - and made it close enough to steal.

[GreenTea]

41. It helps Bush...puts the blame elsewhere and as usual the media will repeat

it until people believe it's fact....ANYTHING to get Georgie off the hook and protect their little tyrant they adore so.

[wiggs]

42. You are right. But get used to hearing it. The chaos and violence is of OUR

own making, intentionally, as it is what gives us reason to stay there indefinitly. A peaceful Iraq is not what the administration really wants.

Any DUer could point to dozens and dozens of examples of administration actions that have contributed toward violence and chaos...and yet well-informed DUers would be hard-pressed to find anything that we've done to create peace.