Experience And Wisdom Are Not Synonymous

[DemocratSinceBirth]

If experience and wisdom are synonymous why did grizzled Senate veterans like John Kerry and Joe Biden vote for the Iraq War Resolution.


And if experience and wisdom are synonymous we should nominate Robert McNamara for president. I think he's still alive...

[Phredicles]

1. Good point: Robert McNamara? I don't think anyone wants to see that.

:scared:

Still, while I like Obama as a person and can easily see his appeal, I would like to know more about where he stands on the main issues.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

3. The Best And The Brightest.... A Whiz Kid...

On paper it was the brightest and most experienced people who got us in that war and kept us there long after it was a lost cause...

[cloudbase]

2. 'Tis the difference

between having twenty years of experience or one year of experience twenty times.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

4. Sometimes Experienced Just Means You're Old...

eom

[RaleighNCDUer]

14. LOL

Well put.

[no_hypocrisy]

5. They voted because it would have been political suicide NOT

to vote in favor of it. Not everyone is a maverick like Jeanette Rankin who was THE ONLY member in both the House and the Senate to vote against the declaration of war against Japan on December 8, 1941. Now, THAT'S not a politician.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

7. Ding, Ding, Ding ... We Have A Winner..

They thought the war would be short, successful, and popular...

The ironic thing is John Kerry voted against the first Gulf War...

At least in the first Gulf War there was a clear causus belli- Saddam stole someone's country...

[TahitiNut]

9. AFAIK, not a single member of the House orr Senate voting against the IWR lost in 2006

Just how is that "political suicide"? Furthermore, since when is getting elected (self-interest) morally superior to doing the right thing?

[no_hypocrisy]

10. They were guessing it would be political suicide. Who knew? n/t

[Greyhound]

30. At least 10+ million of us knew. What I don't know is why a few Democrats

insist that this immoral, blatantly self-serving, politically expedient, vote should be excused.

There is (or should be) nothing more serious for a legislator than whether or not to send our citizens into battle, unfortunately we seem to have adopted the classist view that our troops are simply pawns to be used in any and all situations that may provide some political or financial gain to the politiwhores and their campaign contributors.

So if they have a (D) after their name, your position seems to be that they are owed a pass for this completely foreseen clusterfuck.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

12. Good Point....

And even at it's most popular it wasn't as popular as WW 2 if a war can be popular at all...

They made gross political calculations that turned out to be wrong...


I'm kind of surprised at the "pass" pro IWR senators get here....

[Warpy]

6. Have you read the IWR?

It's no wonder so many decent Congressmen voted for it. There were several very stringent conditions Stupid was supposed to meet and violence was a last resort.

Well, we all know what happened. Stupid just ignored all the conditions, threw the UN investigators out of the country, and started bombing.

If there is ever an impeachment of this filthy crew, lying to Congress and violating most of the terms of the IWR should be front and center in the charges.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

8. Why Didn't He Fool Barack Obama, Bob Graham, Howard Dean For Starters?

At the end of the day the congressmen who voted for IWR were Bush*'s accomplices...

[Warpy]

11. Some people believed he would follow the law

and other people knew damned well that he wouldn't.

Perceptiveness is not a universal trait and this has always been a country of laws, not men who would be dictator.

Sorry, but I can't fault them for relying on the rule of law. I put the blame entirely where it belongs, on the administration.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

13. Respectfully

Everybody knew the dye was cast when Colin Powell made his presentation to the UN... Those congressmen knew exactly what they were doing...

[TayTay]

15. You make strange out of time postings here

1: Barack Obama was not a Senator on Oct 11th, 2002 when the IWR was voted on in the US Senate.

2: Colin Powell went before the UN un February 6th of 2003, well after the vote to get the inspectors back into Iraq happened in the Senate.

Your criticism is not serious, it is based on a false jumble of data and dates that are incorrect.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

17. My Criticism Is Serious

I got my timeline wrong...

Barack Obama opposed the war as a state senator in the Illinois legislature... That is the salient fact...

[TayTay]

19. So, he didn't have to vote on it in the Senate

And you are the one who made the point on Colin Powell's presentation and used it as a reason to say that you knew that the war was wrong and the Senators should have known it as well. However, since you got that wrong and it does not back up your argument as the Colin Powell presentation happened months after the Senate vote, I wonder if you know what you are talking about.

It's not there in the post. The post assumes a general knowledge to be true that you provide no backup for, have been proven wrong on a key point and that you say now doesn't matter because, well, it was a timeline problem.

There are many who would argue that all the things leading up to Iraq and the timeline in which events happened is important. Very, very important. The details matter and they matter as to how people made their decisions and what those decisions were based on.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

20. Shoot Me... I Got My Timeline Wrong

The bottom line is that many people inside and outside of government including ninety five percent or so of the posters on this site opposed the war from it's inception.

The mistake in my timeline can not and will never change that fact.

[TayTay]

21. But the details matter

They would matter in a criminal court and they matter in accounting for all the dead in Iraq. It matters.

More important than that vote for me is who wants to hold the Bush Administration responsible for their war. I will not vote for anyone who is not for a thorough investigation and believes that we should put this aside in pursuit of some vague concept of bipartisanship.

If someone really opposed the war, they should also be for investigations and support any criminal proceedings that might come from that, promise not to grant immunity to anyone involved and the fully support investigations.

I will not vote for anyone who does not support that.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

25. I Accept Responsibility For Screwing Up The Timeline...

But my screwing up the timeline doesn't absolve the senators and representatives who voted for the Iraq War Resolution.

Those that opposed it from the inception deserve applause and gratitude and those that supported it deserve scorn and derision.

[TayTay]

26. And those who refuse to investigate it also deserve scorn

and should not be voted for because they have failed their duties as upholders of the Constitution.

Don't you agree?

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. As my grandfather used to say...

Wisdom is what you get when you read the instructions. Experience is what you get when you don't.

[TahitiNut]

18. While experience does not guarantee wisdom, it's a prerequisite.

Wisdom and innocence (i.e. inexperience and naivete) cannot coexist. The latter is surrendered before the former can be developed. One can validly question both the amount and kind of experience various person might require in order to gain wisdom - for some, it seems, no amount or kind would be sufficient. It is, however, inarguable (imho) that experience (and suffering) is a prerequisite.

It's a sophistry to misdirect such considerations using the word 'synonymous.' Zeal and advocacy is not a license to engage in such a sophistry, imho.

[The Magistrate]

22. As The Saying Goes, My Friend

"Learn from the mistakes of others. You won't have time to make them all yourself."

[TahitiNut]

23. Indeed ... that's the "something extra" over and above experience that's needed for wisdom.

There are few words in the English language, imho, the meaning of which takes longer to learn than the word 'wisdom.' (Another is 'grace.') Some of us fall short of even knowing what it means, not to mention ever coming close to achieving it. Grappling with that comprehension has been at the core of many of my own life experiences ... always leaving me with wonder at those (e.g. Gandhi, Mandela, Tutu) who've apparently achieved some significant degree of wisdom.

Sometimes, I think it's the biggest word in our language.

[Orsino]

24. Yep. "Experience" in today's American political climate...

...can argue strongly against any claim of wisdom. What experience, exactly, we should always ask, and on whose behalf?

[kwassa]

27. Cheney and Rumsfeld both had lots and lots of experience

We know how that turned out.

[beachmom]

31. That's like saying you're looking for someone with pharmaceutical

experience, like a pharmacy degree, and someone says "Oh, you don't want people with experience. Why those drug dealers we hired last time were a disaster". Rumsfeld and Cheney have experience -- in corrupt concerns like Halliburton and doing business with Saddam and Iran/Contra . . . Shall I go on?

Experience matters. What KIND of experience matters more.

[ItNerd4life]

28. Very true. Many people have 1 year experience repeated 10 times.

But they equate that to 10 years experience.

[TahitiNut]

29. Yep. It'd be like repeating 3rd grade ten times and claiming a diploma.

:rofl:

At the same time, it's NOT a valid argument for awarding diplomas to all 4th graders.