Can someone explain to me what the whole deal is with people being jerks on the web?

[xultar]

Why is it that people hide behind their keyboards and play rude and say/do things they wouldn't do in person?

What is it about the web that makes people think that they don't have to be polite human beings?

I don't get it? Explain to me why when you log on to to the web you log off your social niceties??

So is that it? The web makes you big and bad and you have to say and do rude things to make you feel superior? Is that how you get your kicks?

Explain it to me?

I don't say things to people on the web I'm not prepared to say to that person's face. When you meet me and read my posts I use the same voice I do in real life. I don't have a separate web persona. Wouldn't that be dumb? I'm no different here on DU than I am with my family and friends. I'm no different on DU than I am on any other site. If you see Xultar on another board and can verify that it is me...you'll see no difference.

I've talked to a DUer on the phone. I think she thinks I'm the same and she's the same. And just so you know she's as cool as hell on DU as she is in real life. I thought that is how we all were.

I'd hate to think the jerks on the web are the same in real life...because if we are gonna get some change goin and get people to see that we are right...being an ASSHOLE isn't gonna get it. I think we've seen that failure with the republic party.


Maybe I'm a naive idiot. I don't know.

Help me to understand what's going on here?

Flame-retardant suit activated......

P.S. Thanks Admins for that new ignore features. I'm diggin it so hard.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

1. Some people are douchebags.

[omega minimo]

46. some people have no ideas of their own and fling their poo at others

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

82. Yeah, they're douchebags.

[jgraz]

112. Dude, how have you not been blocked yet?

You are CLEARLY not working hard enough :rofl:

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

113. It's my pretty blue eyes and reckless swagger.

With a healthy dose of douchebaggery.

:rofl:

[jgraz]

132. you are such a douchebag

:pals:

[LostinVA]

142. You do have pretty blue eyes

And your reckless swagger is kinda hot.

[jgraz]

52. And some people are just afraid of opposing ideas so they call them "rude"

I wonder who I'm referring to...


ETA: douchebag

[xultar]

61. There is a way to disagree without being rude or an ass about it.

[raccoon]

88. There is, but I think popular culture encourages being rude or being

an ass. Unfortunately, some people take that as permission for them to be rude or an ass.

[SemperEadem]

150. you're right... rudeness is entertainment nowdays

any reality show currently on air and it's popularity proves that. The higher the ratings, the ruder the programming.

[jgraz]

99. not really, since rudeness is subjective

for example:

OM: nonsensical, silly post seeking attention and validation

Me: I'm sorry, but that's completely nonsensical and here are several reasons why

OM: You're being rude! Why can't you just let me have my say without hijacking my thread!!! You hate women! You can't read!!!

Me: Stop bullying people who disagree with you. If you don't want a debate, don't post

OM: Rude!!! Bully!!!! You're a liar!!! I never said that!!!

(lather, rinse, repeat until OM hits the block button)

Yes, some people can be "rude" and I've made several posts that even I would consider rude (I have a pretty high rudeness threshold) -- but some people use the "rude" label as a passive aggressive way to quash any disagreement and justify their own thin-skinned reactions.

[omega minimo]

153. for those who think rudeness is subjective

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3151192&mesg_id=3153169

[timtom]

63. I sincerely believe

the issue is one of tone and not content.

[omega minimo]

152. Absolutely. Well put.

unforunately those who are tone deaf yell the loudest B-)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

73. !

:spray:

[NMMNG]

161. Then there are the stalker douchebags

:evilgrin:

[omega minimo]

164. Then there are the colostomy bags

[bananarepublican]

163. Are the douchebags closet freepers? Would you mind providing some 'for instances' ...

... i.e. examples of the behaviour being referred to.

Thanks in advance.

[omega minimo]

165. no, they're right out in the open

[tridim]

2. It's been like that since the BBS days

I remember people being rude at 300 baud.

[xultar]

3. Buhwawawa! Being rude @ 300 baud. Sending fuck you by smoke signal

would have been more exciting.

[Longhorn]

23. I was on a mothers of twins board way back in the early 90s.

It took 24 hours for a post to make it on the board -- talk about slow-motion flame wars! :D What do MOTs flame about? Naming twins the same, dressing them the same, and separating them in school. It amazed me how rabid some people got! Some people just can't handle different opinions! :shrug:

[raccoon]

89. "Some people just can't handle different opinions!"

Absolutely. Some people have to be "right" all the time. If you disagree with something that's their opinion--they think their opinion is "right" and still insist that your opinion is "wrong."

IME, usually such people came from an alcoholic and/or severely dysfunctional family. And often, it would never occur to them that THEY could do with some therapy.

[geomon666]

160. Well of course they think their opinion is right.

If they didn't, it wouldn't be their opinion. Have you ever heard anyone start a sentence with, "In my wrong opinon"?

[Swamp Rat]

25. LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!

:rofl:

[xultar]

33. I don't doubt he asked to view his pubes...not @ all. I bet he asked to pull his finger too!

[Rex]

58. Thats got me wondering.

:rofl: I bet people were rude on the telegraph!

[Cooley Hurd]

68. Snarf!

Sender #1: -.-- --- ..- / .- ... ... .... .- - ... / ..- .--. / -. --- .-. - .... / - .... .- - / . .-.. . -.-. - . -.. / - .... .- - / -- --- -. -.- . -.-- ..-. .- -.-. . / .-.. .. -. -.-. --- .-.. -. / -.-- --- ..- / .-.. .. ...- . / .. -. / -.. ..- -- -... ..-. ..- -.-. -.- .. ... - .- -.

Sender #2: .-.. --- .-.. / -... .. - . / -- . / -.-- --- ..- / .... .. -.-. -.-

Sender #1: -... - .-- / -.. --- / -.-- --- ..- / .... .- ...- . / .- -. -.-- / -. .- -.- . -.. / . - -.-. .... .. -. --. ... / --- ..-. / -.-- --- ..- .-. / -- --- -- -- .- / .. / -.-. .- -. / .--. ..- .-. -.-. .... .- ... .

Go to: http://morsecode.scphillips.com/jtranslator.html for translation...;)

[ariellyn]

69. LOL. (Spoiler Alert translation included)

"YOU ASSHATS UP NORTH THAT ELECTED THAT MONKEYFACE LINCOLN YOU LIVE IN DUMBFUCKISTAN"

"LOL BITE ME YOU HICK"

"BTW DO YOU HAVE ANY NAKED ETCHINGS OF YOUR MOMMA I CAN PURCHASE"

:rofl:

[JVS]

104. -.. --- ..- -.-. .... . -... .- --.

[ariellyn]

114. This is getting to be fun

..-. ..- -.-. -.- / -.-- --- ..-

:sarcasm:

[JVS]

115. .-.. --- .-..

[ariellyn]

116. You're dead to me

I didn't read your last response and don't intend to and don't bother to waste your time responding again since you are now on permanent ignore.

[JVS]

141. See you in a week perhaps

[Alamom]

4. Great post and I understand what you're saying. If some of these

posts are what people are doing and saying in their real life, the world has gotten much worse than I could have imagined.

I always try and pass it off as it's Anonymity Bravado or Anonymity Stupidity.

Sometimes it does get old when it's on thread after thread.

Thank you for pointing this out. It's not funny and it's not fun.

[Fridays Child]

5. It's a condition called cowardliness, which...

...seems to be more and more common here, unfortunately. I'm also grateful for the new "ignore" features.

[donco]

6. Xultar, I believe that the people that say on the web

What they normally wouldn’t say to a persons face. In my opinion they are full of frustrations. Taking their frustrations out on the people that they don’t have to go face to face with. At least that my 2 cents worth.

[xultar]

7. Welcome to DU! I understand what you are saying...it seems so plausable

:hi:

[The Backlash Cometh]

75. I probably should PM this:

The web, or actually, the unmoderated usenet, brought me out. I was the proverbial mealy mouse. Took a lot of shit, simmered inside for decades, thought I was suppose to be the peacemaker and/or martyr in most disputes, and then I happened upon the irish and british newsgroups. My perspective changed and I learned how to dish it back and I learned how to block out people that I knew I could never reach. It's true what they say. What doesn't kill you, makes you stronger.

And let me tell you something about being a meek person at heart. There is a lot of strength to be had, even in defeat. Because you learn as you get older, that you don't really have any control over anything in your life, except, MAYBE, you can give yourself the right to pick and choose what people are going to make you feel bad about yourself. And, that's why, maybe, people say rude things on the net. Because you, (and I'm not getting personal) didn't make their short list.

[treestar]

157. But this is good

The people who dominate in real time/place do not get to dominate on the web.

I believe these to be the same people.

I.E., in a real life real time conversation, they can dominate and prevent people from saying things they don't want to hear. In the web environment, they can't, and that frustrates them. They aren't in control any more.

I love the web because of the frustration it causes control freaks.

[Ladyhawk]

159. This "Internet Douchebaggery" is something I've wondered about for years.

Most of the time I play nicely with others and even feel guilty for getting nasty when someone else starts it. At times I haven't known what to say because I haven't had much real-life practice being a douchebag.

HOWEVER. :) (Wait for it...)

I recently started participating in Atheist vs. Theist debates on various forums and wonder if I haven't been just as nasty as others have, in the past, been to me. I am furious with the fundamentalists that brainwashed me and continue to make my life difficult in a thousand ways. Unfortunately, most of the poor schmucks that show up to defend their religion aren't overly gifted with logic or debate skills. I never received formal training in either, but in several cases I completely eviscerated the fundies' arguments and thrusted the bloody remains into their faces to add insult to injury.

When I'm in a better mood, I want to go back and read what I wrote to see if I crossed the line. In my opinion, eviscerating an argument is one thing; eviscerating your opponent is another. Ad hominem attacks cross the line from discourse to "Internet Douchebaggery."

[Scout1071]

8. I don't understand why people do half the things they do online.

Not sure I ever will.

[Cameron27]

17. Neither do I,

and btw, I want to thank you for having the courage to speak out.:thumbsup:

[Jim Warren]

9. keyboard cowboys?

[JerseygirlCT]

19. LOL! Hadn't heard that term

but it works!

[4nic8em]

10. Well, to show my utmost sincerity...

while I'm off the web, George Bush can kiss my ass in person.

[xultar]

12. Oh you got that right. I'd call him every name I've ever typed and I'd make up

some new ones.

And he can kiss my ass.

[WilliamPitt]

11. Online Group Dynamics

Dig it.

http://www.enotalone.com/article/3219.html

[xultar]

13. Great article. I'm still reading. What I find funny is that it never occurred to me to

be anything other than myself. MAN...am I stoopid.

[salin]

29. Me, too...

*stoopid* - but, with integrity :-) I like being who I am be it in real time or in cyberland.

And for what it is worth - I think I get a sense for 'authenticity' of posters, over time. And appreciate it, even when I don't always see eye to eye with the person.

For example, I can state for sure that over the x years our paths have crossed on DU, that we do not always see eye to eye (though in more recent years I would say that we actually see many things - at least on conversations where our paths cross - quite similarly) - and I really appreciate reading your threads and posts. I think, to a great degree, because I see authenticity - and part of that is coming to understand an emerging (through your words) sense of perspective that I find consistent, refreshing, and often thought provoking.

So sue me, I chose to take you, and your on-line persona at face value. :shrug:

That said, have had enough experience with on-line 'fronters' that I don't always take folks and their words at face value. Spending a certain amount of time online does tend to make one a bit skeptical.
But like you - it never occurred to me to be anything but myself - and indeed I don't know that I could pull off faking even if I wanted to. :shrug:

[xultar]

32. I dig your vibe. I have come to recognise you and understand your POV

That is the one thing I try to do and I can see some try it as well. We may not AGREE but we understand where others are coming from. I think that is why I dig your vibe. You try to understand and that is pretty cool in my book.

I can't tell a fronter because it doesn't really occur to me that people front. Although I better get my ass in gear on that one.

Peace to us Salin...and all the other 'fronter'-challenged!

[salin]

44. Let's embrace it...

the 'fronter challengedness' withiin us.

:D

[AZBlue]

50. That's a fascinating article! Thanks for the link.

eom

[fishnfla]

14. Modern day salem witch trial. with spelling nazis eom

[PinkUnicorn]

15. Virtual Balls

The "Virtual Balls" phenomena has been around ever since the old Genie and BBS days.

Basically it comes down to someone who wouldn't dream of doing something in reality suddenly grows a pair of cast iron balls (regardless of gender) when they are safely hiding behind a keyboard. Actions without consequences makes stepping outside 'acceptable limits' easy and it can happen to even people who are normally quite passive in reality. Everyone imagines to some degree (no matter how fleeting) on occasion about how they would like to deck the blowhard who is irritating them, and in the heat of the moment with the protection of anonymity it is oh so easy to hit the send button, especially if the person is talking pure shit or its a hot button topic (and since politics is one of the hot buttons it's unavoidable on DU to some degree).

The older varieties of VB has people who claimed to be a 'ex marine 7th dan black belt ninja who could kick your ass'. The more modern incarnations are either members of the '8th Keyboard Brigade who are veterans of 6 World Wars' or the 'Expert in everything including quantum physics, biology, string theory, insert field here'. For this sort of thing the ignore function is great - but personally I just use the 'ignore function' between my ears. ;)

The other side of the coin, is of course is that maybe the person you flame does know what they are talking about but someone doesn't want to hear it, so they start making a lot of noise to cover their dislike of someone disagreeing with them (ie: Stifle the argument). This is the downside of ignore functions.

But in the end, Virtual balls are just that - Virtual. So just flick past their posts as it wont affect you in the slightest. Remember they saying 'Never argue with an idiot as they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'. :)

[hfojvt]

128. actions on DU are not without consequences though

a post can be deleted. A poster can be tombstoned or ignored, or now blocked. Is that a sirius consequence? As sirius as people wanna make it.

[porphyrian]

16. I just say the first thing that comes to mind if and when I feel like it.

I don't censor myself at all. So, sometimes I sound like an idiot or a raging asshole or, on rare but notable occasions, like I know what I'm talking about. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong. My posts are a direct reflection of my state of mind at the time I post them, which may not be such a good thing, but there it is.

[JerseygirlCT]

18. Wish I knew

I chalk it up to them, and remember it's not about me.

Did you have a particularly bad experience, or is the day to day-ness of it wearing you down?

I'm trying (not always succeeding) to be calm and reasonable on-line as well as IRL. I'm trying to find common ground -- thinking it would be a better place all around, this world, if we could all strive for that.

So no flames here!

[KT2000]

20. In cars too

Anonymity unleashes something in some people.

[mdmc]

21. everyone is a bully online

Dilbert says so..

[alcibiades_mystery]

22. Feeeeeeck off

You KAAAAAAANT.

:-)

[xultar]

76. BUHWAWAWA!

[MrSlayer]

24. Some people get off on flaming. Others enjoy the anonymity.

People can say what they really think when no one knows who they are. People that would get their heads knocked off, fired from their jobs or ostracized by their peers for stating them openly and honestly.

[Truthiness Inspector]

26. I agree

The element of anonymity has detiorated the level of discourse.

Then again, there are lots of real life jerks out there too.

[hunter]

27. They are the very same jerks in the real world.

It just takes them longer to out themselves.

A homophobic racist misogynist nutjob might take days, weeks, months, or even years to flame out in front of your face, but he can do it online instantly.

[silverojo]

39. Very true

Look how long it took for Michael Richards to reveal himself for what he really was! :crazy:

[Zodiak]

28. Don't worry, I am an idiot, too

I am also exactly the same here as I am elsewhere. You will hear me curse at politicians who are not here, but I do not hurl invectives to my fellow DUers. The behavior reminds me too much of bullying, and I have a REAL problem with bullies.

More than a few times, I have confronted people here on DU about being a real jerk. It makes me out to be a sanctimonious ass, but I get a few "thank you" notes for it, too....sometimes from people who go on to be jerks in other threads (that irritates me).

Like a dumbass, I actually think that if enough people acted this way, everyone in the community would learn to calm down and act more civilized.

There are people here with heart conditions, depression, emotional difficulties, PTSD, etc. Not everyone comes equipped with a "thick skin" so we should not require it of all...that is my position. I see absolutely no reason why someone who typically types "Oh bullshit..." cannot type "I disagree" instead. It is not a matter of censorship, but common courtesy.

I also do not like that so many people post ROFL smilies at others' political positions. I find jeering to be another behavior of bullies.

[silverojo]

35. I respectfully disagree. :-)

<<There are people here with heart conditions, depression, emotional difficulties, PTSD, etc. Not everyone comes equipped with a "thick skin" so we should not require it of all,>>

My dear, I'm type 1 bipolar, with fibromyalgia (and the accompanying depression), generalized anxiety disorder, and chronic hyperventilation syndrome. On the days I don't have a thick skin, I avoid forums just as I avoid going out into the real world, because I realize I can't expect the world to mollycoddle me when I'm having a lousy day or feeling suicidal.

This doesn't mean I'm being unsympathetic to anyone (least of all myself, LOL!). It's just that a big part of taking good care of yourself is knowing what you can tolerate at a particular moment. If someone (or I, myself) is feeling as if the world is crashing down on them, the LAST thing they need to be doing is heading for a political discussion forum. A relaxing computer game (sometimes, I can't even handle that), or even just reading stuff about topics you enjoy is a better diversion.

Politics is a tough subject, and the fact that political discussions get really heated is well-known. A political discussion forum isn't Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, so if you can't stand the heat, you need to stay away from the debates.

And with the word "you", I also include myself; I'm not suggesting that people do something that I wouldn't do. ;)

[Zodiak]

40. I understand your position

Of course people who have chronic conditions are responsible for taking care of themselves and avoiding confrontation on "bad days". Your ability to cope is commendable and you speak well on what those that suffer certain conditions should do. I am speaking about what everyone should do, and I do not necessarily see how these two ideas cannot coincide. It sure beats one group of people capitulating 100% so people can feel free to act like jerks anonymously...that just doesn't sound like the right way to go to me.

[distantearlywarning]

85. Nice post.

I totally agree with everything you just said, including the part about sometimes confronting people on DU about their jerkiness.

[AtomicKitten]

166. Common courtesy is scarce in real life.

- and even more so with the cover of anonymity on-line.

I am put off when I read the first word of a response is "WRONG ..." I don't think people realize, truly understand what a difference of opinion means. There are so many efforts, some subtle, some in your face, to marginalize others' opinions, the smilie ROFL jeer just one of them.

Politics is something I don't get emotionally involved in, and I don't get all starry-eyed over politicians. Some people seem to view politics like junior high drama. Politics IMO is the vehicle to changing the status quo in our world and, in that sense, it is a chess game. I guess I just don't get why people get their knickers in a twist over a difference of opinion to the point of hurling insults.

[silverojo]

30. I'm not using the ignore feature--ever

Emotions run high, particularly where politics is concerned, and that often makes people act in ways they normally wouldn't...in real life, as well as online.

Not everyone's views are going to jibe 100% with your own, and heated arguments are going to result. I grew up in an Irish family, where you can be yelling at someone one moment, and laughing with them in the next moment. It toughened me up so that I realize a heated argument isn't the end of the world.

For instance, here on DU, I may strongly disagree with someone, but you know what? I don't mentally take names and harbor a grudge against anyone who's ever said I was full of sh*t. I state my piece, I might argue one or two points briefly, but I'm not going to get into a pissing match with anybody, to the point where the whole thread is dominated by me and the other person. We both have the right to our opinions. :)

There's no "ignore" button in real life, and IMHO it's silly to have one on a forum. It's one thing if a troll deliberately disrupts a group--yeah, that person should be banned. But putting someone on ignore just because they don't agree with you, or they call you names, or whatever...that's the point at which a person needs to take a deep breath and chill.

Come on, we're Democrats--if we used the ignore button on everybody who pissed us off at some point, none of us would be able to post in each other's threads! :rofl:

[Scout1071]

31. I'm with you.

I've threatened to use it once, but I never actually have. Or wait a minute...maybe there was one time...but how would I know?

I'm going to go check it out and see if I ever did.

Anyway, I agree that sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Although I imagine I probably recently made an ignore list or two. Oh well...such is life.

[EstimatedProphet]

34. How do you know they wouldn't be rude in person?

Actually, I think people are more rude now that they were 15 years ago. I see rude self-centered people all the time.

However, I do think the screen 'empowers' some people that don't have the courage to stand up in real life.

[xultar]

79. I just can't believe people would off and say to someone they never met

some shit I see here.

[EstimatedProphet]

119. I think some people would...

1) I was just at my father's memorial service a couple days ago. My (unfortunately) stepmother was at a breakfast buffet with all of us before the service, when she had a literal screaming fit with another woman she didn't know, almost to the point of a fistfight, over literally nothing. Namecalling, screaming, literally standing face to face shouting at each other. And I can tell you this - I know it wasn't because she was stressed about my father's passing either. This was one of the worst displays I have ever seen in public.

2) After the Prophetess had back surgery, we went to a local farmer's market so she could get out of the house. We were trying to go through a double glass door, with her visibly limping and walking with a cane, when a redneck on the other side started bitching about how people can't get out of 'his' way.

Just a couple real-life events that come to mind. When I think about them I'm stunned that adult people can act so selfishly. So I guess it doesn't surprise me much that more people act that way when they hide behind a screen. I think in general people have become more boorish, rude, and self-impressed in the last several years. I think the prevailing political climate of 'me first, and fuck you!' leads to people that care only about what they want, and can't be bothered with concern over their actions on other people. There's just too many people that think it's all about them.

[spacelady]

36. People are jerks everywhere. The web just makes it convenient.

I am the same jerk here as i am anywhere else, it is just a matter of the written word vs. an in-person exchange. Lots of thoughts can be expressed, but online they can be interpreted in a myriad of ways. SO, when a person says something online in a forum such as this, there are a few hundred people taking it in and internalizing what is said to their own personal experience. It is dang near impossible to regulate what is unacceptable and what may be merely naivete' . That is why I feel the new feature of blocking responses in a thread is a band-aid that will be thoroughly abused eventually. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

See? I'm the same old jerk I ever was.

[Posteritatis]

37. It's much, much harder to get punched in the face over the net

That's the long and short of it right there.

[raccoon]

90. Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner! nt

[BlackVelvet04]

38. I'm as big a jerk in real life as I am online......

well, maybe not quite.

After being stalked and harassed by repukes on line I think I put on an on line persona in self defense......sometimes my alter ego rears it's ugly head in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[eleny]

41. Cyber Courage?

[foo_bar]

70. whiskey you mean?

[eleny]

125. I meant the anonymity that the cyber world allows

[crappyjazz]

42. There's no veil

I think it's in writing that people find their true expression. Most of the internet experience is reading and writing and for the most part, without the society veil that prevents most from saying things untoward or that might be perceived as rude if talking face-to-face. Whether a person is decent in real life or a jerk in real life, I believe the removal of that "veil" emboldens us all.

[Cleita]

43. I think the anonymity has a lot to do with it.

I don't mean having a different name, but the fact that people really can't look at each other and hear each others voices. Maybe one of these days we will talk to each other on the screens and be seen just as if we were in the same room with each other talking and able to see and interact with each other. Even if we have different screen names, I think it will make a difference in how the trolls interact with everyone.

[omega minimo]

45. .

good question


:popcorn:

[majorjohn]

47. One Word - Anonymity n/t

[mmonk]

48. No

I don't know what the deal is with jerks on the web.

[omega minimo]

49. Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner

DU Rules
Who is Welcome on Democratic Underground, and Who is Not


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Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office.
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While specific words are not automatically forbidden, members should avoid using racist, sexist, homophobic, or otherwise bigoted terminology.

***********

Those are the Rules. What's the reality? What are reasonable expectations of experiencing the DU presented in the Rules?

What is progressive, liberal or even democratic, about being a jerk?

[Name removed]

83. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

130. Would it better to just get rid of DU Rules that may create unrealistic expectations?

"Democratic Underground is an online community for Democrats and other progressives."

"Members are expected to be generally supportive of progressive ideals, and to support Democratic candidates for political office."

"The administrators of Democratic Underground are working to provide a place where progressives can share ideas and debate in an atmosphere of mutual respect."


*** Those are great goals and we like to think that's where we are when we're at DU-- some of us, anyway..........


"Despite our best efforts, some of our members often stray from this ideal and cheapen the quality of discourse for everyone else."

*** "Stray from this ideal"? That horse has left the barn at a gallop, not strayed....... Do we need a reassess of the "quality of discourse" or revision of the Rules to reflect reality?


"Every member of this community has a responsibility to participate in a respectful manner, and to help foster an atmosphere of thoughtful discussion."

*** "Respectful manner, atmosphere of thoughtful discussion"-- sounds great. Where is the bar set? I think the question of the OP is why do the jerks have so much leeway here to carry on, break Rules and not get deleted or banned? The new Ignore tool brought up the question. I was willing to think the best of the potential there. Yet it seems to have emboldened people to push the envelope and dare others to block them-- just for the sake of it, just pure disruptor bullshit.

Why is it "okay" to OP/announce in one forum to gang up and go to another forum to hijack a thread?

"People who repeatedly and willfully break the rules, or who generally engage in rude, anti-social behavior, will be banned."

*** :shrug:



What is progressive, liberal or even democratic, about being a jerk?

[sniffa]

131. but if we got rid of the ruLes

you'd have to find something eLse to copy and past in these threads.

[cboy4]

133. !!

:spray:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

138. ...

:rofl:

My god where do DU'ers find these perfect reply photos!

[xultar]

136. Can't get rid of the rules...they don't give a false impression. Rude people

just make everyone miserable.

Most of the stuff I'm seeing is within the rules but it is just people being a jerk about things. Intenionally trying to hurt others or to elevate their own stature is bullshit.

[Scout]

144. good question

Why is it "okay" to OP/announce in one forum to gang up and go to another forum to hijack a thread?

and then go back and crow about how you all got the thread locked ... i hope none of them were the people who complain about thought police, word police, stopping the discourse etc. .... :eyes:

[omega minimo]

154. they're a bit confused

"i hope none of them were the people who complain about thought police, word police, stopping the discourse etc. ."

Of COURSE they are :rofl: and if you object when they attack you, THEY are offended. Outraged! How Dare You!!!!!!!!!!11

"The problem is the OP put up a silly language police thread and then blocked anyone who dissented. Hence the new threads."

The problem is the poster got blocked after repetitive attacks and then started a retaliatory thread and tries to make others believe the OP "blocked anyone who dissented."


"Why is it "okay" to OP/announce in one forum to gang up and go to another forum to hijack a thread?
and then go back and crow about how you all got the thread locked...."
and then start a brazillion copycat threads and spread lies
and stalk into other forums and posts and antagonize
and say “Dude how have you not been blocked? You are clearly not working hard enough”




The new Ignore feature is bringing out the worst, not best, in folks (I was so wrong about that, silly me). Now may be the time to revamp Rules that Skinner called "Draconian" to give us a better idea of how high-- or low-- the bar is really set.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

51. People are jerks online for the following reasons, among others:

1. If they acted this way in person, they might get their ass pounded, physically. But on the internet it won't happen. They are both anonymous and have distance.

2. If their name was attached to their words, they might be embarrassed to be petty or call others names. But since they're anonymous, it's all good!

3. On forums like this, they are actually your "enemy", here to cleverly "infiltrate", "disrupt" and antagonize you.

Of course it goes without saying that many or even most people, even with the protection of anonymity and distance, have an intrinsic desire to avoid antagonizing others. But that doesn't cover everyone, obviously.

[xultar]

66. Sounds plausable to me.

[jgraz]

53. Sadly, many people define "respect" as "always agree with me"

It's so easy to win an argument if you just convince yourself that all opposing opinions constitute "rudeness" or "hijacking". The blocking feature just enables the children to put their fingers in their ears and pretend that everyone agrees with their nonsense.

[xultar]

65. Are you sure? Or is it wanting understanding? I'd think we are grown up

enough to understand each other even though we disagree.

[jgraz]

103. Yeah, I'm pretty damn sure

You can see several examples of this every night on some of the smaller forums. My guess is that many of these people seek validation through passive-aggressive bullying ("you're rude! Harassment!!! I'm a victim!!") and have no interest in real debate. Try making an even slightly contrary post on the Women's Rights forum if you want to see a great example of this.

Sadly, the new blocking feature has resulted in the complete balkanization of the smaller forums, so now they're now oozing their way into GD in search of new blood.

[AtomicKitten]

167. ***

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3157888&mesg_id=3160860

[merh]

54. Shhhhhhhhh, there is no disagreement on DU

and there are no disagreeable people here.

We are all sheep and we all toe the party line and we all agree.

DU is one huge echo chamber and we all agree and pat each other on the back and slap high fives. :sarcasm:

You should know that! ;)

:hi:

[frogcycle]

55. your post is stupid

so just bite me, dogbreath



}( :evilgrin:

[xultar]

64. That's Chihuahua breath to you.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. The ease of it.

I also think that sometimes people are thought to be jerks, when in fact it is just a "translation" issue. When online, there are no facial or body clues, no inflection, and even using the emoticons, sometimes sarcasm can be misunderstood. Also, sometimes people are more emboldened when they can hide. Then, just like in life, there are clicks of bullies and liars and such...that is just life though. When online, hings aren't always what they seem. My G-d, think about online dating and all the euphemisms that exist in that realm!

VGL (very good looking) = that's what my mom tells me!
Looking for LTR (long term relationship) = I am needy! Hold me!
Casual = you won't get breakfast at my place
Fun-loving = drunkard
No limits = run for the hills...this is a freak!
Mature (age) = Methuselah was a roommate
Mature (attitude) = I have no sense of humor
10 inches = if you measure from the back of my ass and double the number! :evilgrin:

The online world sometimes allows people to be who they can't be in life, other times, it is really a reflection of who they are, no need for masks like the ones we wear day-to-day. But, that is just my opinion.

[kiahzero]

57. .

[Mythsaje]

59. I can't speak to the web in general

but I'm occasionally a little more contentious here on DU than I am in most places. I enjoy a spirited debate, and I'm not so likely to find them among the people I know IRL. Most of the peopole I know are either lefties or not particularly skilled at the art of debate.

So I get that out of my system here. I don't engage other authors or readers like that. I engage RWers on line on occasion--though I grow tired of beating my head against the brick wall--but DU is my most entertaining source of rational discussion and debate.

There are lines I try very hard not to cross. Others aren't so discriminating.

[xultar]

62. Plus I generally see DU as my home. That makes things different for me

I guess.

Du is my family in a way. A family of like minds. I'm not going to intentionally shit on my family members.

[jgraz]

135. maybe that's the problem

It's not just your home, it's all of ours. Some people have a more colorful way of speaking or a snarkier tone in their response. That doesn't make their posts somehow less valuable.

BTW, in all my posts, I've never even come close to the way my family talks to each other. I guess it's just a matter of what you're used to.

[DeepModem Mom]

60. K&R

[enigmatic]

67. I hate the passive-aggressive bullies more than anything else

The ones that sneer condescension and and arrogance in their posts and threads, can't stand having their ideas challenged, then scream "victim" when called on it. That's a huge problem here (hell, everywhere on the net, I guess) and w/ the new SuperDuper Block, it's getting much, much worse.

I've been on the internet over 15 years and cut my teeth on USENET, which honestly makes this place seem tranquil by comparison. There are people who are shy and retiring in RL suddenly have a case of Popeye's Internet Tough Person Spinach and turn into raging horse's asses on the boards they frequent; I've seen it way too many times. I don't let it get to me because it's not worth the effort; it's an internet message board. I get mad, I log out and do something else, and it's over.

I post this page every so often because it's the best thing I've ever seen about message board dynamics, even if couched in humor:

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/

Most people (if they are honest with themselves)will recognize one of more Warriors in themselves; there's no question I've been guilty of more than a couple. But it's the ones that refuse to that really need to sit down and think about they are coming across to others (even if they think they are "right"), because more times than not whatever message they are trying to get across is completely lost on the way they present it, and themselves.

[xultar]

77. I can be guilty of being a passive-aggressive bully on the net and in real life.

I need to work on that.

[exploited]

71. You can be rude;

you can be trite; you can be a furby; you can be a nubile 50yo balding 133t h4ck3r and part-time hermaphrodite sportsmodel; or you can be wh4teva you feel like at the time. It's the Intertron. It's not real life. You can be random.

Alternately, we can all register our personal details with a governing body and sign on with our real names.
http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/tech/200701/kt2007010919184511790.htm

You'd like that wouldn't you? I know you'd like that.

Maybe our ages should be displayed too. That way any perceived impropriety could be instantly recognised as a "known known" (Rumsfeld, 2002) and flung into the generation divide, never to be seen again. That raises another characteristic of beast. It's HERE NOW -----> now it's gone.next.move.on.what's.new. >> google: "unknown unknowns"

Fun'n'games with words and pictures.:) I write, therefore I am "me" and the way others perceive me is a "known unknown" (Rumsfeld, 2002)..... until they tell me ;). Blast away. I can hack it.

[Lerkfish]

72. the answer is contained in the question, grasshopper...

Why is it that people hide behind their keyboards and play rude and say/do things they wouldn't do in person?


because they can get out their demons without consequence.

[The Backlash Cometh]

74. You must live in a nice place.

For those who warm up to me in my neighborhood, well, I hear opinions that truly sadden me. And for most others, you can't trust what they say, because their actions speak louder than words.

Though, admittedly, I must be riding a good karma wave, because I have met some unexpectedly good people lately.

[sendero]

78. Ok, I'll admit it...

.. in person, I can be one of the most charming folks you have ever met, believe it or not. Yes, I CAN be an asshole in person also, but it takes a lot of provocation to get me there.

But here, I let it all hang out. Yes, sometimes I feel guilty for the vehemence with which I often express myself here. But that is who I am. Bipolar means never feeling lukewarm about anything :)

Why do people just eschew social niceties on a message board? Because we are talking to disembodied spirits. Because the only negative reaction we will see is more words.

I think that you have to have a thick skin to participate online. And I'm not sure that is necessarily bad.

[eridani]

80. It's the anonymity

Same reason why urban/suburban areas have road rage and small towns don't. You are inclined to hold it in when the person who has just cut you off in traffic might well be teaching your kid, filling your cavity, digging your well, or sitting on the zoning board to which you have just applied for a variance. You don't know people and it's much easier to just let fly.

[Virginia Dare]

81. I'm convinced that there is a small but very high profile element..

on DU that is here just to try and make fools of "liberals". They get their asses handed to them on a regular basis, but they refuse to go away. I'm rather entertained by it really.

[TZ]

84. Something like road rage

People change completely behind the wheel of the car too. I suspect this is similar (and not having to look anyone in the face while saying rude things...)

[Marie26]

86. They're cowards

It's that simple.

[raccoon]

87. I have a family member who think they can send mean, abusive,

hateful emails to other family members—and then act like it fucking never happened.

I’ve broken them both of that, as far as sending me such emails. From now on, when I get an email from anybody, the minute it starts to be abusive, I STOP READING THE DAMN THING.

But to answer your question, email/the Web is a passive-aggressive’s dream. They can say mean, hateful, abusive things they’d never dare say in real life.


“I don't say things to people on the web I'm not prepared to say to that person's face.”

That is to your credit, and I think that says a lot about your character. Same as the way a person treats wait staff says something about their character.

[TZ]

91. also cowardice

I found that in my day to day life recently if someone disagreed with something I said or did instead of talking to me about it, they would go behind my back to undermine me by saying negative things about me indirectly. I think those types of people enjoy being able to be mean and vicious on the web because they are too cowardly to do it directly.:-(

[xultar]

100. Doesn't that go back to saying treat people on the web as you would in person.

I wouldn't say anything about you indirectly I wouldn't want you to hear.

We have rules here @ DU that prevent somethings espeically calling out another DUer.

[Catherine Vincent]

92. I always try and keep that in mind when I'm posting on the web.

Be the same as you are in real life.

[Skittles]

93. well that would not be me

I'm the same way in my personal life as I am in my web life - yes INDEED. But I still maintain that new Blocking feature on the DU is for absolute cowards.

[xultar]

102. Call me a coward. I love the feature. Why because we have rules here @ DU

that won't allow me to get down and do to others what they do to me. Plus if they refuse to be civil why should I be subjected to it?

[Skittles]

162. using the blocking feature brings other DUers into your conflicts

that is COWARDLY

[porphyrian]

94. I think it's ironic that this thread is being used by so many...

...who wax poetic about how other people's online behavior doesn't conform to their personal concept of politeness and civility are also making a point to call those other people cowards and jerks.
:eyes:

Just sayin'.

[xultar]

98. True. And agreed.

[LostinVA]

105. Yup

[Beausoir]

107. LOl. I agree. They tend to swim is schools.

It's no coincidence that so many "ignores" are showing up on this thread.
Kinda funny.

And no, Xultar, I wasn't referring to you. You ask a valid question.

I chalk it up to cowardice.

[omega minimo]

139. So wait, that means...........

only cowards and jerks get to call other people cowards and jerks?! :evilgrin:


THAT'S ironic!! :crazy:




Do you prefer to be waxed UNpoetically?





What's really weird is the only people I've seen accuse anyone of being a "coward" are the "jerks"!!!!!!! :wow:

[porphyrian]

143. Doh!

Personally, I'm in favor of completely-uncensored exchange. I like to tell people off on occasion, and I know people would like to do the same to me. I was only pointing out the irony of saying people should be polite and then calling them names.

And I'd rather look like an ape than get waxed at all. Pulling out hair is painful. ;)

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

147. There Are A Few Posts In Which I'm Not Sure I've Ever Seen Greater Hypocrisy.

It is so blatant that rather than being disturbed by it, you almost can't do anything else but laugh hysterically at its sight.

I mean, do some of these people actually think others reading it are foolish enough to buy the self-righteousness as if the person had ground to stand on to state it to begin with? :rofl:

I can't help but think that there are some who so desperately need to lie to themselves about themselves to avoid having to confront their own inherent flaws. That's the only explanation I can come up with for the lack of personal objectivity I see sometimes.

Good observation, porphyrian. (Holy shit, wait, did we just agree on something? LOL)

[porphyrian]

148. I won't tell if you don't.

;)

[omega minimo]

151. He must be looking in that smoky mirror again...

Such a great point of reverse logic, it's too bad half of DU can't see it.

[porphyrian]

155. People see what they want to see.

It's funny how many different ways people have interpreted the original post, or at least how they've responded. People are funny.

[benEzra]

95. Dehumanization, and anonymity...

some people who see an opinion they despise, see only words on a screen and forget that there is a living, breathing human being on the other side of those words. So they say things they'd never say to a person face-to-face.

The other thing is anonymity, in that you can be a jerk online without your circle of "live" friends realizing you're a jerk. But I think the first factor is more significant than this one.

[Az]

96. The shield of anonymoty and the lack of consequences

Human nature in society is informed by the fact that there are consequences to our actions. Both to our selves and to others. We are affected by both of these. When we see another person we literally internalize their condition. We have specific neurons (Mirror Neurons) that recreate the sensation of whatever another person is undergoing that fire when we see other people. On the net... we don't see other people.

So the fact that we are anonymous on the net has two effects. First we can adopt a persona that we need not be responsible for in the long term. Like a sock puppet all the animosity can be discarded by simply losing that particular sock. And secondly because there are no faces or bodies being presented to us we tend to dehumanize those we are talking to. Thus our natural sense of empathy is reduced.

With these factors in play it becomes possible for the psyche to use such forms of communication as a vent for the frustration and anxiety it feels about certain conditions. Those that lash out at others simply are frustrated and see the net as a place to vent without consequence.

[BlooInBloo]

97. Answer: Anonymity. On the new feature: Welcome to Cowards Underground.

[WI_DEM]

101. for that very reason--you can't see them and look them in the eye and

tell them to stop being a jerk. If they are jerks on the website they are probably jerks in their everyday life.

[xultar]

106. I get tired of it. I get tired of seeing people be mean to other people.

I get tired of hearing about people killing other people.

I'm just SICK TO DEATH of all the inhumanity to man. SICK. Sick. Sick.

[porphyrian]

110. I think everyone's resources are nearly tapped out.

I look at it like everyone has a finite pool of resources to deal with all the shit going on in their lives. These resources are used to go to work on time, treat people decently, handle the stress in life, everything. When something happens in life that demands a greater amount of these resources to deal with (a death in the family, a traffic accident, getting chewed out by someone on DU, catching a cold, etc.), other things which require these resources suffer. This isn't always apparent, but can manifest in a number of ugly ways, perhaps causing relationships to suffer, whatever. DUers have a considerably-higher drain on their resources because of what we know is going on and the difficulty in getting anything done about it. Then again, some people are just jerks, I guess. I don't know.

[TZ]

121. mean people

I am tired of mean people too. But I am also very tired of people who look you in the eye and smile and say nice things to your face but behind your back lie and badmouth and stab you in the back. I think I would rather have direct rudeness. I know how to deal with that.

[xultar]

123. I like it direct too. But I don't care what people say behind my back as long

as I don't hear it.

[TZ]

124. mean behind the back people

Well, its really bad to me because now I and a good friend of mine have damaged professional careers because of behind the back lies and bullshit. Thats why it bugs me so much. I really think some of the nasties to you are people like that who in real life could never say crap like that to peoples faces, that the "true" selves are revealed on line...

[Marie26]

108. I don't agree

I think people can be different online than in real life. It's probably who they really are, w/o the social restraints that keep people civil in face-to-face interactions. If you are rude to a co-worker or family member, there are real and immediate consequences - through damaged relationships, lowered reputation, lost promotion, etc. But if you're rude to someone online, there's no consequences & there's no social ramifications - it's all anonymous. For that reason, I think people tend to let out all the aggressions & anger online that they can't let out in real life. It's the "kick the dog" phenomenon - directing unexpressed anger toward an object that doesn't have the power to truly hurt back.

[rpgamerd00d]

109. I'm proud to say that I am just as rude in real life.

Hmmm, maybe "proud" is not exactly the word I should have used there....

[xultar]

111. Well I'm a bitch I hear and well I LOVE IT! Be who you are...but people

who pour on the jerk just cuz they can't in real life piss me off.

[IronLionZion]

117. Keyboard bullies!

it's not that far out. You could say the same about some of these media blowhards like Rush, Savage, etc. who don't normally face the people they are talking to.

Internet message boards do have an anonymous nature where there are few repercussions since you don't have to actually face anyone. There is only 1 DUer that I know of who knows what I look like and that's because we're from the same hometown. Many times the worst consequence would be an angry private message or even getting banned from the board for what you say, so it feels like we can saw anything.

And of course, when the shit get too bad, you can just take a break for a bit. I'm proud of the fact that I don't have any enemies here that I know of nor do I ever get involved in flame wars. That's just not worth it.

I belong to another smaller, more local online community where people's personal info has been shared in the hopes of doing harm to them or their families. and that just blows.

Have you put me on ignore just yet? :silly: I wonder who has me on ignore?

[KitchenWitch]

118. My personal theory is that such people have no personal power in their own lives

So they come on the internet and bash other people in order to elevate themselves.

[xultar]

122. That's what I think too. I'm real. I got Chihuahuas who eat poop and burp

poop breath in my face and I love it.

Nothing likea demanding dog with poop breath to put your life in perspective. I have no grand ideas about my stature in life when I'm pickin up my dog and he pisses right on my shirt...(Mr. Sprinkles best trick.)

[treestar]

158. Exactly! And the people who wield power over others in

regular conversation, are frustrated to death that on the web, they cannot control other people as easily.

Those who are used to dominating in person must find the web frustrating as hell. People can talk back to them, and they aren't used to it!

[BreweryYardRat]

120. There's a quote.

"It's funny how computers can make you have balls. Because if you ever yelled at me with such force in real life, I'd probably already be seeing if you fit into a Wendy's biggie-size cup."

Even we have plenty of arrogant jackasses. The web allows these dickweeds to spout off without having to worry about getting deservedly beaten.

[Auntie Bush]

126. I'm guilty!I'm different on DU than I am in person...you wouldn't recognize Auntie Bush

in person. I am guilty of using impolite words like asshole, fu** etc
on DU...but I would never use them in person. I NEVER swear...but the anonymity of DU gives me a chance to vent about our president and express what I really think. (My husband would be shocked) I'm really a nice little "very mature lol" lady and wasn't brought up to curse like woman do today. I got gypped!
So I'd guess you could say I act younger on DU than I do in real life! LOL

[xultar]

127. I don't swear in front of my parents. But I swear so much in real life it isn't funny.

[TZ]

129. I swear for entertainment value

I can cuss alot wherever if I am mad. But I can go for long periods without it and when it happens boy you should see the looks on peoples faces! One of my former coworkers would die laughing at me- I was working with robotics and he always knew when it wasn't working when the very loud F bomb was dropped in the quiet lab...:)

[LanternWaste]

134. I honestly don't think it confined to the web...

I honestly don't think it confined to the web-- too often I see it on the highways, at the stands in sports venues, or at restaurants & grocery stores. I will say it's much more pronounced on the web as fear or retaliation becomes a much, much smaller concern.

However, incivility is "trendy" these days. It's marketable. Pushing the envelope is just a marketing trick to help us accept rude conduct as "edgey". And by golly, we've bought into it! "Let's make fun of this or that and call it entertainment. Let's burst this guy's sacred cow-- regardless of how it makes him feel, and we'll get a kick out of it..."

How many people say "I wear/do/say X just to shock people..."? It's another form of incivility and rudeness. It's absurd at best and seflish at worst. Just to shock someone? What good reason can there be to make another member of our community, a neighbor or even a stranger we know nothing about feel uncomfortable or awkward.

How many people think that respect must be earned, rather than its more positive corollary: respect for others is actually the default, while it is disrespect that must be earned? More than quite a few, I suspect.

The peace movement in the sixties had the unspoken mantra of "Us, we, together as readily exemplified by the music of the age. These days, everyone's unspoken mantra is "Me, I, mine" regardless of whether the speaker is on the left or the right.

My little rant. Now back to your regularly scheduled posts....

[xultar]

137. I think you are right. Think of the reality show rudeness...people like to watch

it and now they like to do it.

[librechik]

140. mentally ill people seek attention and interactivity

therefore there is a large proportion of them on the internets, which give both plentifully. Then there's an article at Wired which discusses how flame wars are caused by incomplete and misunderstood communications. That sort of wraps up the other proportion.

Therefore you have a better chance to get bad responses than good ones. I'm always amazed at the general high quality of posts here, though.

here are some tips to survive online discussions:
http://www.hacknot.info/hacknot/action/showEntry?eid=72

[SemperEadem]

145. cowards hiding behind anonymity.

that's all it is.

[SemperEadem]

146. cowards hiding behind anonymity.

that's all it is. They would never say it to your face, out in the open, by themselves.

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[treestar]

156. Oh you're such a martyr

If you can't stand the heat, stay off of the internets!