Can we open the suicide booths yet?

[Porcupine]

This is in response to continuing revelations about the woman who killed herself as a result of a contest for a video game contest.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=3153569&mesg_id=3153569

I live a few hours north of this incident where just in the last year some college kid died because his "buddies" thought giving him 5 gallons of water to drink would be a fine idea. It was all over every news source in the N. California area for months. White kids don't just die that way do they?

Over the course of the last year several other kids in my college town died doing equally stupid things. A friend of my daughters lost her dad because he had a few drinks at a family picnic and drove home with no seatbelt on. The tree didn't care. Several of the tenants in buildings I managed died and were left to rot for several days because nobody checked up on them.

None of these deaths slowed the local drinking crowd down a notch. They literally riot if the authorities interfere with their access to alcohol. It is their god--given right to drink and whore through 5 years of college and get a degree based on a unearned C average. Then they expect to slot into 40k yearly salaries right away. I mean, shit, the pResident did it, what's the harm.

My brother committed suicide in June. He lost his job; he had money in the bank, a nice car, a girlfriend and a large supportive family. But without a great job you are nothing in this society. He hung himself in his toolshed. We treat depressed people like shit. We throw their lives away.

Meanwhile in my town and your town and every stinking town in the US we have homeless people hanging around waiting to die. We feed them but refuse to house them to the standard that we house or old junk and papers in storage units. If they get sick they can join the masses quietly dieing in emergency rooms across the nation because they are too poor to afford a ruinous health insurance premiums.

As a nation we are sending shell-shocked troops back to Iraq for their 3rd and 4th tours because the congress we specifically elected to keep them home doesn't want bad press. Their commander in chief is a proven liar and coward; a man who avoided service when it was his turn by political featherbedding.

The climate is turning on us. The planet is choking on the exhaust of my truck and your SUV and everybody's flight back home for Christmas. New Orleans was just an appetizer we know that now. I can't fix it and the government won't.

So can we open the suicide booths yet? It's a science fiction staple that has been avoided in real life. A nice little kiosk downtown that lets you in checks your ID and gives you a measured dose of helium and nitrous oxide. The cleanup crew could pick the meat up in an unmarked van after business hours. It would save us all a lot of time and money because we don't give a crap about the next guy.

We certainly don't give a crap about your future. Look outside there's some mothers beautiful child picking through your garbage looking for cans. Some little boy or girl we spent 12 or more years teaching to read and write and do higher math. We aren't going to do shit to get him out of the cold; certainly not let him live in a shed in our neighborhood. Or a little hermit's house. We are all one blood clot away from that fate.

If we don't care and we aren't going to help can't we just let people go with dignity? C'mon it'll save you money.

Or maybe you can check on a neighbor, put up with that POS family member, or put your meat on the street to protest every week instead of every quarter. Maybe you could hold your representative to a higher standard than just not being a thief. Maybe we can get the congress to show a spine on something. Maybe you could spend ten bucks a week hiring a homeless guy to sweep your walk. Maybe we could get off our asses and show some compassion.

Or there's always the other option.

:rant:

[salin]

1. quite a rant...

Puts into the light the ridiculousness of *'s claim that he leads a party with a 'focus on life'.

Agreed - we *can* do some things, we just often don't.

[Philosoraptor]

2. Prices are LOWER than ever!

[Porcupine]

3. Thanks for the image. nt

.

[Blue_Tires]

25. i'm too cheap--let's do a twofer!

[ShortnFiery]

4. Thank you ...

Yes, we can! "Maybe we could get off our asses and show some compassion."

Every little act of warmth and compassion we freely give to the poor and disenfranchised peoples, helps to fill that empty part of our heart and soul with love. It's proof that a little of "The Higher Power" lives within each of us.

It's never too late to forgive. To love one another. :grouphug:

[bedazzled]

5. please accept my condolences on the loss of your brother

these are difficult times for the sensitive ones. it's hard
enough dealing with depression, without the world going to hell
in a handbasket.

such a sad story...

[KG]

6. i'm not fooled. i know i live in a mean and hateful counrty,

while some try to uphold the myth of this country being the very epitome of enlightenment and compassion, it's a fairey i haven't believed in for years.

[Zodiak]

7. The Cult of Personal Responsibility has consequences

1. Woman dies from holding her pee while people jeer her and make jokes = her fault for entering the contest.

2. Soldiers serving three or four tours only to come home without limbs, or a job, or with PTSD = their fault because they volunteered and knew what they were getting into.

3. Homeless man on the streets = his fault for being a drunk and too lazy to get a job.

4. Iraqis get killed from starvation during sanctions = their fault for electing Saddam Hussein

5. Thousands suffer in the wake of Katrina = their fault for living there and not evacuating when told.


The cult of peronsal responsibility (blame the victim mentality) makes us an uncaring, disjointed society that is ripe for the picking by proto-fascists. Amazingly enough, that is exactly what happened.

[Coventina]

8. Thank you. "Personal responsibility" is code for self-centered contempt for

the unfortunate.

I'm all for encouraging people to make positive changes in their life, but every single one of us has had to rely on others at times. EVERY SINGLE ONE!

[Porcupine]

9. "No man eats by his labor alone"-

-The Years of Rice and Salt, Kim Stanley Robinson.

Open your refrigerator and look in there. You grew none of that if you are average. Even if you are Joel Saladin you have relied on others to make the tools and develop the breeds of animals you eat. Your fruits, grains and vegetables took thousands of years of selective gardening by others before you.

Look at the wonder of your house. Where did the materials come from? Who built the road? Who fed the man who built the road? How many people did it take to turn rocks in the ground into the stove in your kitchen?

Any asshole who says he's a self made man is a liar. Each of us owes a debt we can never repay to others who came before us. We can only pay those around us and those to come.

[Zodiak]

10. Wise words n/t

[Pithlet]

23. That is an excellent book. One of my all time favorites.

And excellent post :thumbsup:

[Midlodemocrat]

11. I know what you are trying to say, but I don't think it is fair to

compare a woman who died in the quest of a video game console to the victims of Katrina. Or the soldiers who have been killed in Iraq, or the homeless.

Apples and oranges to me.

[Coventina]

12. I'm trying to understand why you feel the way that you do.

But I look at that poor woman's picture and I see my sister.

My sister tried desperately to get a Wii for her husband for Christmas, because that was what he wanted. She stood in many lines, made many phone calls, drove all over the city to no avail.

If such a contest been held in our town, she may have entered it.

It seems foolish to us now, in retrospect. But I'm an educated, intelligent person, finishing up my master's degree. I didn't know drinking a lot of water in a short time could kill you. I daresay my sister would not have known either.

This woman died for a lot of stupid reasons, and it's easy for us to judge after the fact. But I just don't find her at fault as much as the idiots who organized the contest, and the game manufacturer that purposely kept inventories low to make consumers debase themselves to get them. I don't think she deserved to die in pain like she did, I don't think her babies deserved to lose their mother, because she wanted to do something nice for them.

I find it just sad.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. I guess I take it for granted that

an adult would recognize that drinking and not urinating can't be healthy.

I do feel sorry for her family, I truly do. And, I do think that the radio station screwed up big time.

I do not, however, put her in the same category as those who were hurt or killed during Katrina, nor our troops.

I just don't put enough importance on material things, I guess. I wouldn't enter a contest like that for all the tea in China, no pun intended.

[Coventina]

14. I know what you mean about the importance of material things

But then, sometimes our judgement is clouded when someone we love wants something. I know I might do things I wouldn't do just for myself, if I thought it would bring joy to those I cared about.

Although, being a naturally shy person, I doubt I would ever do a media publicity stunt like that.

on edit: typo

[Zodiak]

17. People were trampling each other

to get Tickle-Me-Elmo dolls for their kids. It is clear that some people are fanatica in their love fr their kids. Others for their husbands (like your sister).

The phenomenon you describe is very real and our whole culture is aware of it. I would wager these publicity-conscious radio jocks knew it, too.

[Porcupine]

21. Callous disregard for others welfare....

is practically the prime directive in american society. It's inherent in consumer culture.

Take the simple banana. It's available everywhere at incredibly cheap prices. It's possibly the cheapest commodity that you can buy retail. Bananas are smothered in pesticides and fungicides like no other crop. Workers on banana plantations are practically slaves. They are treated so poorly that prostitution is a significant step up in the world. Everybody eats bananas; nobody gives a shit about the poor suckers who grew them.

Eat a banana; screw your neighbor, it's the American way.




edit: spelling, profanity restriction

[Zodiak]

15. OK...how about a boy who had been kidnapped

and then blamed for his kidnapping because the predator had a strong physchological hold on him?

I am not comparing the situations....I am comparing the reactions to these situations because they are quite comparable and illustrative of a mentality that we all-too-often fall into.

[Midlodemocrat]

16. Well, I'm a psychologist, so you should probably pick a different example.

[Zodiak]

18. why?

I fail to see how your credentials as a psychologist precludes me from saying that blaming this boy for his victimization at the hands of a sexual predator is illustrative of a mentality that far too many Americans have embraced.....that of taking the mantra of personal responsibility to a ridiculous level.

Surely you acknowledge that the boy has been blamed and questioned by our talking heads for not escaping when he had the physical chance.

[Midlodemocrat]

19. Because I don't believe that the vast majority of people believe that

for a moment. It's a lie put out there by Bill O'Reilly and even in this shockingly red area of a purplish state, people are sickened by what he said.

Let's be realistic. We all 'know' why that child was kidnapped and as rational adults we recognize the psychological hold on him. Stockholm Syndrome is real as evidenced many times but most notably by Patricia Hearst when she was kidnapped by the SLA.

I haven't heard anyone other that O'Liely indicate that this child was to blame for his situation, but I have heard people state that this woman who died was perhaps a tad foolish.

Another point I made to Pithlet in a different thread...when you have a baby, the doctor instructs you to make sure the newborn is wetting several diapers a day to ensure that his/her system is working properly. This woman had three children. I think her desire for the 'toy' overcame her common sense. Somewhere in the back of her mind, she knew that drinking and not urinating weren't healthy.

And, I don't think people believe that she is in the same category as the troops. JMHO. YMMV.

[Zodiak]

20. We cannot speculate what was on her mind

In the absence of evidence. All indicators show that she didn't think about anything other than her kids, especially if one considers the testimony of the other contestants.

Once again, I am not comparing her situation to the troops...I am comparing the reaction to her as being similar to the reactions of some of the same people to the troops, or the Iraqis, or Katrina victims. That is the position I am taking, not whether the troops suffer equally to this woman or if they are equally culpable as this woman.

If I was comparing suffering or overall tragedy of these situations, then the comparison is not appropriate, but in this context, it is. It shows you how it doesn't matter whether the issues are big or small, there is a cadre of Americans that are first to blame the victim and feel it is appropriate as a default position.

Now...as to Bill O Reilly. Yes, I am aware that he is the only fool who directly impugned the honor of the boy, but the ENTIRE media AND the talk around the water-cooler was "why didn't this boy escape when he had a chance...maybe he liked not being in school?". I heard it and saw it with my own eyes for two days before it became clear he was sexually abused from an interview with his parents. But that default blame the victim mentality was there.

The smae goes for Katrina...the day after people starting really suffering there, talk around the water-cooler was "those lazy N.O. people were too lazy to escape the hurricane...probably waiting for their welfare checks". This is in an academic institution full of purported "liberals".

This extends to all walks of life...people are blamed for being fat, blamed for being addicted to cigarettes, to drugs, for having too many kids...for having no kids. For being poor. For not being as smart or strong or fast as the guy next to him. For not saving enough money...for not reading the small print. The list goes on and on, and I am sure of these we can put together a list of generally equivalent tragedies that illustrate exactly the same mentality.

But the point remains the same.

[Midlodemocrat]

22. I'm not sure I agree with the default blame on that child and here's why.

Very few people understand the psychological grip that that poor child was held under. As a matter of fact, one of the first things I taught my children when dealing with the whole 'stranger danger' thing is not to believe anything the 'stranger' says, and that includes not believing that if you run away or escape that the stranger will hurt Mommy or Daddy. Most people don't do that. They teach their children 'don't talk to strangers', not realizing that the stranger is essentially the least of your problems.

Children are conditioned to respect and not question adults, so it is perfectly reasonable for me, at least, that an 11yo boy would believe that the kidnapper would hurt his parents if he tried to escape.

I think in general, most people are thinking about this child's circumstance from an adult's viewpoint and are therefore unable to understand the psychological damage.

[Zodiak]

24. Their ignorance still translates to "blame the victim"

The reasons for the mentality are debatable, and like you, I would argue that ignorance plays a very big part of it.

People who blame the troops for being stuck in Iraq are probably ignorant of stop-loss and arm-twisting.
People who blame Katrina victims are probably ignorant about the realities of poverty.
People who blame the homeless man for his drunkedness are probably ignorant of the cycle of abuse and drug addiction.

But still, the mentality is there. Reasons are another issue.

Question: Why do you allow that the people who question the motives of the boy are simply doing it out of ignorance, but you assert that the woman who held her pee was not ignorant to the dangers of the contest? I promise you that there is no accusation in this question...it is entirely Socratic. Is it that the knowledge needed in these situations is general vs. specific? To you, it is general knowledge that drinking a lot of water can kill you...but more specific knowledge that predators threaten their victims to the point where escape is no longer an opinion?

[Midlodemocrat]

26. To answer your question.

Everyone uses the toilet. Not everyone understands the psychological workings of an adolescent's mind.

I don't blame her. I think she was profoundly misguided.

I don't believe that everyone knows that drinking a lot of water can kill you, but I do believe that just about everyone knows that not urinating isn't a good idea.

[Zodiak]

28. For a couple of hours or many, many days?

The contest was a couple of hours. There have been many other DUers with higher educations and even biology degrees post on other threads (in which you participated, but might have missed the posts) that they didn't know about dying from this until this incident hit the news.

Your belief seems to be held in the face of contrary evidence, albeit anecdotal.

Knowledge as specific as this is a hit-and-miss thing, trivia for those not in health fields. Kind of like knowing that there are gay insects for non-entomologists.

[Midlodemocrat]

30. It appears I missed quite a few posts in that now locked thread.

And, I'm not an entomologist, but I knew there were gay insects.

Maybe I'm just old.

[Zodiak]

31. Then you have a good command of trivia

I had to become an entomologist to learn that. LOL. I had always thought that one needed a cerebral cortex for such complex behavior, but I was wrong.

It was a shame that thread was locked...I thought we were civil..at least in the part of the thread I was posting.

[Midlodemocrat]

32. Funny, I had thought so to.

It seemed like a very reasonable discussion with different points of view, but as I said, I missed some of it, so who knows?

Anyway. Nice speaking with you about this. Have a good weekend.

[Zodiak]

35. And you, as well. n/t

[Pithlet]

27. The thing that bothers me about the personal responsibility response

to the woman holding her wee debacle is that even if this woman were indeed stupid in participating in this, and holds some responsibility for her demise, I don't understand how that absolves the radio station. It's one thing to think she was stupid. I don't agree because I don't think hyponatremia is common enough knowledge to make that argument, but for the sake of the discussion. I don't get why it's okay for any person or entity to exploit that stupidity, especially for entertainment purposes. I don't get why the radio station doesn't have any responsibility in this. Radio stations and other corporations have responsibilities, too. They have the responsibility to make sure their promotional events do not harm or kill the participants, even if the participants are willing. They don't have the right to endanger people by exploiting their human flaws, even if the participants are willing. If they're going to choose to hold these events, they have the responsibility to make them as safe as possible, and to acknowledge the dangers and make sure the willing participants are aware of them. Responsibility is not merely an individual matter.

I'm not always bothered by the blame the victim response when an individual does indeed have some responsibility as long as any responsibility that others also have isn't ignored. What bugs me is how one-sided the argument often is. I don't see the argument that the radio station had no responsibility on their side of the event. I don't think the fact that people are ultimately responsible for themselves automatically absolves everyone else for their culpability. The general blame the victim mentality often includes this, and that's what always gets me.

[Zodiak]

29. I agree

When with a human, or any biolgical biolgical population for that matter, one is going to see that intelligence, drive, common sense, looks, responsibility, etc. all are distributed in the population on a bell-curve. Very few are perfect in one category, much less all categories...and the population will never be 100%...ever.

A contest like this, when presented to a market of say....100,000 people is bound to have people who fall on the high end of the "more love than sense" curve (as well as others perhaps). If it was only 1/100 of 1%, you still have 10 willing contestants willing to subject themselves to whatever the radio station has in store for them.

Now when tragedy such as this occurs...do we look to those that fall on the tails of the curve and blame them for being on the tail of the curve (after they are dead) or do we look to those that exploit the tails of the curve for a publicity stunt (and are alive)?

The preponderance of the blame lies with the station, in my opinion, and there should be a healthy dose of criminal and civil litigation to accompany this both to discourage future negligent stunts and to ensure that those three kids have a better chance now that their mother was taken from them.

[Hoping4Change]

33. Please accept my condolences. What a wrenching way to lose

a loved one. I wish you and your family will find peace and strength. Your post is extemely powerful and has left me speechless.

[blues90]

34. Very sorry about your brother .

I will say it breaks my heart how those who are down on their luck ( for lack of a better word ) as treated .

I have done what I could for the homeless I come across here but my part is small , just $5 here and there when I have it or the change in my pocket .

However I do realize very well what depression consists of . I lost my job after 12 years or finally getting somewhere . It took almost a year to find another for less pay and many more hours and I was ok with this but I was laid off after 4 1/2 months .

As I kept up the search for another I have found nothing , not even a $10 per hour job .

It was never material things or job position that made me it was being able to survive and hope there would be a future .

I have suffered from anxiety and panic attacks since 1986 but with neds had this under control . Now I have found that something inside me has died , everthing I used to find pleasure in such as music and playing guitar is lost now . I can't imagine what interests me to do in the future just to keep going .

I have often thought of going to the Katrina destroyed gulf coast to offer my help since at least this actually means something and if I could survive there even in a warm tent I would be better than now worried and freaked out .

I am reminded of a movie , They shoot horses don't they .

To be depressed and suffer without hope is one of the worst feelings one can have .

There must be thousands who are in this situation and this is one horrid scary place to be .

[Zodiak]

36. Not to stray too for off-topic

but you said that you no longer find pleasure in playing guitar?

I find that profoundly sad and it is my fervent hope that you may once again get joy from your instrument. Seriously. There is nothing that I do that is more healing than fiddling with my Rick or my Ibanez.

I had a friend who quit his guitar during a 10-year bout of depression. I never understood why he just didn't pick it up and play...he always talked about it. I know his situation is not yours, but a musician separated from their instrument makes me sad just the same.

[blues90]

38. I will try to explain this . I don't want to distract this topic .

I have been playing for 43 years . It has always been my center and the only way I could get out of myself .

The problem seems to be that the music that comes out reminds me so much of a better time that it hurts to hear it . I can't even listen to music I like now or watch movies I liked even though they once made me feel ok and stable .

I just don't know what happened in my mind other than the depression has taken over .

[Porcupine]

40. Go to NO, travel, leave town.....

if at all possible. Right now I have 2 kids and I'm chained to the town I live in or the kids will lose access to me as a dad. But I would highly recommend traveling.

From the extensive reading I've done about depression it is clear that walking and changing scenery both relieve depression. I speculate that depression is actually a human impulse to resume nomadic travel that culture supresses. If one of your fellow homonids was eaten by a bear maybe it was a good idea to leave the bears territory. Now we have the mechanism but no means to fulfill it as our livelihoods are connected to a single spot.

I know the feeling of losing an art that you formerly enjoyed. I used to practice Tai Chi to the exclusion of most other activities. After my seperation from my ex I now associate the art with pain and loss. I would be better off if I could restart but I'm not sure how to muster the momentum.

Good luck with your job situation. I'm currently a casualty of the real-estate bust. Fulfilling work is hard to come by.

[blues90]

45. That's interesting

I do agree a change would most likely help alot but I am not in the position to do this now . I should have 10 years ago but did'nt .

I am sorry to hear about the real-estate bust situation , this must be very difficult .

As far as jobs , well I can't think of one thing that sparks my interest but I am willing to work if I could find a job .

From what I hear jobs are hard to find all over the USA . I don't know what people are supposed to do other than try to form some sort of community living with many sharing the rent .

All thanks to bush and his corporate buddies .

[Az]

37. There is an interesting article in a recent Scientific American: Mind

It shows how recent research has shown that teen minds make descisions in ways that we did not expect. First off they are more rational than emotional. Suprise? It has to do with how the mind works (obviously). Often times what we interpret as rational thought is merely learned behaviour. That is someone doing what we have learned is the right thing is seen as rational. But that has nothing to do with rational thought.

Rational thought is a means by which we come to a descision in the absense of direct experience. There are a number of ways to come to such a descision that the mind can make use of but rational thought is the one that gets the most positive feedback in society. It is a process of applying logical rules to the nature of the universe as best we understand it at the moment. We try to weigh and balance the pros and cons of a particular issue and base our descision on the various points.

The second thing about teen minds is that they simultaneously over estimate the danger of something and make their descision more based on the potential positive outcome of an action. Thus telling them something is dangerous just annoys them and makes little impact on their descision making process. They are already probably overestimating the danger involved as it is. But their focus is on what the potential positive outcome could be.

Teen minds are too rational. Given the information they have and the lack of experience they have they are left only with rational thought as a means of determining what to do. It seems that evolutionarily speaking teens learn most by making mistakes. This gives them the experience of what not to do and a greater respect for the negative impact of actions.

Eventually the teen mind settles down and is able to make descisions based on a proper assesment of risk vs reward. But it takes some living to achieve that.

[mikelewis]

39. Helium is probably the best way to go... you pass away with just a slight giggle.

I like the idea truthfully... To market it... we talk the corporate religions i.e. churches, mosques and temples and get them to tell their people God now wants us to commit suicide when we don't make enough money. I'd say, anyone who makes under $5000 a year would make a nice benchmark. We'd kill several birds with one stone, really. The decrease in population would eliminate much of the greenhouse emissions eventually eliminating global warming, there'd be almost no hunger... (at least until the canned food ran out), and there wouldn't be a single Palestinian left to blow themselves up in Israel.

[Porcupine]

42. Win a free vacation in Venus!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marching_Morons

A solution to overpopulation by unthinking masses has been explored in this science fiction story cited above.

[midnight]

41. Porcupine you are telling the dirty little story of what is wrong

with a country that collects so much monet via taxes and then lets it be dumped into the bags of secret authorities that can't account for it. The money they collect from us should go to make this country work for everyone. Not just the guys with the best lawyers. So sad to hear that your brother is gone. Because this is just got to end with us. We here at DU should find a way everyday to help eachother out. My husband works with the mentally ill, and he has the best take on life. He truely does care about his patients. But from what he tells me you are right about that too. We treat our mentally ill like illigal aliens.

[Porcupine]

44. It's the elephant in the nation's living room

We don't care for each other and aren't willing to start. Then we act surprised when people freak out and kill themselves and each other. If it was just my brother it wouldn't be so bad but it is so many of us.

I think I may have inhereted a predisposition to depression from both of my parents. My father is an alcoholic and my mother was orphaned by alcoholic parents in the 30's. All five of the kids my mother had have periods of deep depression and anxiety problems.

The refusal to recognize that peoples problems are real is at the heart of our political situation. The Bush administration thinks that people can be somehow bullied into forgetting the murder of their loved ones. Because they cannot Iraq will never be a peaceful U.S. client state.

Likewise our health care system is based upon the idea that people will somehow forget there is a hospital nearby when they are sick. Sick people show up at hospitals whether they can pay or not.

It goes on and on but the foundation is refusal to acknowledge that the person in front of you has an equal claim to a reasonable life as you regardless of their ability to pay. Where those claims are refused war is always present.

[Evoman]

43. Bite my shiny metallic ass.

No, but seriously...I think its a terrible idea. Very good post though. And I'm so sorry about your brother...I went through that sometime in the past. If you ever need to talk, just PM me.