Do We have Any PETA people here? What on earth is the deal

[leftyladyfrommo]

with the trial going on. Where PETA people were got dumping the dead bodies of animals in a trash bin behind Piggly Wiggly store?

Does PETA take animals from the shelters and euthanize them?

I would like to hear PETA's side of this argument before I make any kind of an assessment for myself. Were these people rogues? Or is this practice common?

(Use the link below - thank you - that article covers this whole thing pretty well.)

[GeorgeGist]

1. link would be helpful

[Annces]

2. I don't know the story, but PETA is in the business of protecting animals

That is ludicrous to think they would be euthanizing them and dumping them. Someone is spreading rumors, and you are probably helping them.

[leftyladyfrommo]

5. Let me find the link I had over on Yahoo.

That PETA employee was saying that PETA does indeed take animals from shelters and euthanize them - explaining that is was more merciful to do that than to let them sit in the shelters.

[Annces]

10. Here is a story from PETAs website

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/06/30/EDGC9DGTNV1.DTL&type=printable

I think people should need a licence to own a cat or dog or any animal, otherwise they can be so easily abandoned.

[Divernan]

16. Here's a reply to PETA from Second Chance Ranch, a no-kill shelter

Members of the animal rescue committee were outraged over an aricle in PETA's Animal Times, which attacked no-kill shelters. Here is a response from one no-kill shelter.
www.nokillnow.com/PETA_pissingwrongtree.htm

PETA Is Pissing Up the Wrong Tree
October 4, 2005 —
**************************
PETA says: "No-kill" animal shelters should really be called "leave-the-killing-to-someone-else" shelters. Katie says: Exactly. Just because we cannot save them all does not mean we should not try to save any. Each year, larger, more commercial organizations such as the Humane Society chapters kill a multitude of animals that we consider to be adoptable. Because they deal in volume, they have a lower tolerance for behaviors and "defects" that are correctable or manageable in a smaller setting like ours. No-kill shelters like Second Chance Ranch take in fewer animals, but still provide a valuable service to the animals whose lives are spared because we spent a little more time and effort finding them a home.

PETA says: Even though the people who run these places are usually well-meaning, they can never build enough cages and kennels to house the 6–8 million dogs and cats who need homes each year. When "no-kill" shelters turn animals away because their facilities are already bursting at the seams—what happens to these animals? KATIE says: We really hope that posing this as a question was a rhetorical device, because if PETA really does not know the answer, their standards of truth and responsible reporting are lower than even we give them credit for. Oftentimes, these animals are referred to or transferred to other no-kill shelters or, increasingly, private foster homes. Second Chance Ranch has a private placement program, where animals stay in their current home while we post them on the Web site and screen potential adopters for a suitable home. Second Chance Ranch has provided free training to hundreds of pet owners, helping them mend the relationship with their animals so they could keep their pets. As a last resort, the more responsible pet owners take their dogs to their vets to be humanely euthanized; the less responsible owners dump them at a kill shelter. We at Second Chance Ranch are optimistic realists. We try to save every animal we can, but we cannot work miracles. We know that some dogs are truly dangerous and some sadly are so warped from abuse that they are beyond repair. Where we differ with PETA is that we think euthanasia should be used only after all other options have been explored. Through our work, we try to teach that pets are worth saving and deserve more consideration than a quick trip to the nearest kill shelter.

PETA says: If they aren't abandoned or killed by their owners, they go to the shelters that never turn away an animal in need. KATIE says: People who kill and abandon their pets are selfish, stupid, and evil. PETA knows as well as we do that selfish, stupid, evil people do selfish, stupid, evil things every day, regardless of consequences or options. Kill shelters have not dissuaded humans from violence against domestic animals any more than prisons have dissuaded humans from violence against humans. For a lot of animals, the shelter means nothing more than 72 hours of fear and confusion before death. That is a service we choose not to specialize in.

PETA says: (These shelters) have made the difficult choice to take in every single animal brought to them, including those who are diseased, badly injured, aggressive, elderly, or unsocialized after spending their lives at the end of a chain—animals who have little chance of being adopted. They take them all in, even if all they can offer the animals are a meal, kind words, a loving touch, and a painless release from an uncaring world. KATIE says: If PETA had bothered doing their homework, they would know that kill shelters consider no-kill shelters to be a valuable part of a heterogeneous animal support system. Kill shelters turn to no-kill shelters for help when the clock is running out on an adoptable dog or when they pick up an adoptable stray they don't have room for. But in PETA's oversimplified view, everything is rosy, calm, and kind at the noble kill shelter. This magical place must exist only in PETA's mind, because it's unlike any kill shelter we have seen. We have found most kill shelters to be cacophonous warehouses of cold cement, where terrified dogs are dragged and shoved into cyclone fence cages, where the stench of bleach and the smell of fear hangs thick in poorly ventilated air. The food, if any is provided, is often of poor quality. The medical care, if any is provided, is often perfunctory. The abattoir approach to animal management has so desensitized many shelter workers that there often is no "loving touch" and the entire grim enterprise is anything but painless.

Because the kill shelter is PETA's "good place," Second Chance Ranch is of course assigned the role of "bad place." Please, everyone, the next time you come to the Ranch for a free horse training demo or to help socialize the puppies we crawled through wilderness thickets to save, don't forget to tell us about the horrors you've witnessed at the nightmarish hellscape of food, warmth, love, and healing that is our animal sanctuary. Remind us that instead we should have just killed all of our animals, because they shouldn't have been born in the first place.

[leftyladyfrommo]

19. There are so many good people out there trying to make whatever

difference they can. Some do better than others. But put them all together and there is an army.

I would rather side with them. All animals need a chance.

[maddezmom]

26. was the link from today?

this is an old story...has something new happened?

[Divernan]

7. PETA killed 10,000 dogs & cats in Virginia

According to the links provided elsewhere in this thread.

This is not the first public mention of PETA's large-scale euthanasia program. In May 2005 the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) unveiled a giant Times Square billboard and a new website (http://www.PetaKillsAnimals.com ). CCF had obtained official records from the state of Virginia showing the militant animal-rights group had put over 10,000 dogs and cats to death since 1998.
In 2003 PETA euthanized over 85 percent of the animals it took in, finding adoptive homes for just 14 percent. By comparison, the Norfolk SPCA found adoptive homes for 73 percent of its animals and the Virginia Beach SPCA adopted out 66 percent. PETA's required report documenting its 2004 record is currently over 4 weeks late according to CCF.

[LeftyMom]

33. The Center For Consumer Freedom is a front for the tobacco and junk food industries.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom

[China_cat]

22. Unfortunately, it is not a rumor.

http://www.vancnews.com/articles/2005/07/13/warrenton/news/news07.txt is just one source for it. The animals, many of who were adoptable, were euthanized and dumped. Shelter workers, at first happy to have PETA's help...which they were told would be to find homes for the animals they took...are upset at the outcome.

By PETA's own records, more than 80% of the animals taken into their shelter are euthanized.


PETA Workers Charged With Animal Cruelty
Friday, June 17, 2005

AHOSKIE, N.C. — Two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (search) have been charged with animal cruelty after dumping dead dogs and cats in a shopping center garbage bin, police said.

Investigators staked out the bin after discovering that dead animals had been dumped there every Wednesday for the past four weeks, Ahoskie police said in a prepared statement Thursday.

PETA has scheduled a news conference for Friday in Norfolk, Va., where the group is based.

Police found 18 dead animals in the bin and 13 more in a van registered to PETA. The animals were from animal shelters in Northampton and Bertie counties, police said.

The two were picking up animals to be brought back to PETA headquarters for euthanization, PETA president Ingrid Newkirk (search) said Thursday. Neither police nor PETA offered any theory on why the animals might have been dumped.

Police charged Andrew Benjamin Cook, 24, of Virginia Beach, Va., and Adria Joy Hinkle, 27, of Norfolk, Va., each with 31 felony counts of animal cruelty and eight misdemeanor counts of illegal disposal of dead animals. They were released on bond and an initial court date was set for Friday.


Hinkle has been suspended, but Cook continues to work for PETA, Newkirk said.

[cynatnite]

3. Here you go...

http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1420

[Divernan]

6. Snips from that link - horrifying!

State News : PETA Employees Face 31 Felony Animal-Cruelty Charges for Killing, Dumping Dogs

AHOSKIE -- On Thursday, two employees of People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) were arrested on 31 felony animal-cruelty charges for killing and disposing of dogs and puppies in a dumpster. The Center for Consumer Freedom is calling on Americans to stop making donations to support PETA. When Ahoskie police arrested PETA employees Andrew Cook and Adria Hinkle late Thursday, they found 18 dead dogs in a nearby shopping-center dumpster (including a bag containing seven dead puppies), and 13 more dead dogs in the PETA-owned van the two were driving. Police observed them throwing several dark-colored bags into the dumpster before the arrests were made.

This is not the first public mention of PETA's large-scale euthanasia program. In May 2005 the Center for Consumer Freedom (CCF) unveiled a giant Times Square billboard and a new website (http://www.PetaKillsAnimals.com). CCF had obtained official records from the state of Virginia showing the militant animal-rights group had put over 10,000 dogs and cats to death since 1998.
In 2003 PETA euthanized over 85 percent of the animals it took in, finding adoptive homes for just 14 percent. By comparison, the Norfolk SPCA found adoptive homes for 73 percent of its animals and the Virginia Beach SPCA adopted out 66 percent. PETA's required report documenting its 2004 record is currently over 4 weeks late according to CCF.

A Bertie County (NC) Deputy Sheriff told The Roanoke-Chowan News-Herald that Cook and Hinkle assured the Bertie Animal Shelter "they were picking up the dogs to take them back to Norfolk where they would find them good homes." Pittman added that persons identifying themselves as PETA representatives have picked up live dogs from that shelter during the last two months.

"This is disturbing behavior on the part of self-professed animal lovers, and I hope the public takes notice," said Center for Consumer Freedom Director of Research David Martosko. "PETA raked in nearly $29 million last year alone, but apparently it couldn't spare any money to care for the flesh-and-blood animals entrusted to its employees. It's ironic -- If anyone else were caught red-handed with 31 dead dogs, PETA would be holding a press conference to denounce them."

[leftyladyfrommo]

12. This is pretty horrifying.

Most of these groups are all about the huge egos of the people involved - and not much about the welfare of the animals.

If you want to give money it is better to give it to the little guys out there on the street who are trying to really make a difference in the lives of these animals.

[achtung_circus]

4. Short answers.

Does PETA take animals from the shelters and euthanize them?

Yes.

I would like to hear PETA's side of this argument before I make any kind of an assessment for myself. Were these people rogues? Or is this practice common?

PETA's position is that this was the actions of a couple of rogue employees.

For the rest, Google is your friend.

[Divernan]

8. Do you have a link for the PETA position you refer to?

nt

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. the link is under the heading "here you go"

News article from the Lincoln Tribune. This is also on Yahoo News this morning.

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. If you read the article it does not say that this is the actions of

some rogue employees - they endorse this behavior.

And I have a huge problem with this. I take care of animals - its the way I make my living.

I think the perception that people have is that PETA only helps animals. The figure here that they actually place only 14% of the animals they take in is pretty bad. And they euthanize the rest? To be merciful? Please.

There are lots of people working to find accomodations for the dogs in shelters. Lots of rescue groups take dogs and cats and try to find homes for them. To just decide to take them from shelters and euthanize them because their plight is hopeless is absurd. It is also unethical to all of the people who donate to this program not understanding that PETA also euthanizes a lot of the animals they supposedly "help."

Its kind of like the people who let animals from research facilites loose. I have the use of animals for research or for fur - but letting research animals or ranch fur animals loose is so irresponsible. Those animals can't fend for themselves. They just die horrible deaths out there - they starve or get hit by cars. They don't live happily ever after.

[achtung_circus]

30. My response

was my memory of PETA's initial reaction. They tried to blame the employees.

I normally stay away from the PETA threads, it's too easy to get me going.

Now I'm not addressing you personally, I'm talking about PETA.

Suffice it to say that I am a full-time investigator for a large SPCA have little tolerance with people who sit in offices collecting large paychecks and advocating X, Y, and Z.

I'd be more impressed if I saw them out helping me clean up the clusterfucks I get to walk into.

Our shelters euthanize for medical or behavioural reasons.

I get to do it in the field. Big whoop. Talking about it is easy, being out in the middle of winter pulling the trigger to kill a cow because that's the most humane thing that can be done by the time I get called is a trifle harder.

Flip side, the uneducated calls I get from people who are upset because I'm allowing horses to be (gasp) outside.

Here endeth the lesson.

I should know better.

[China_cat]

25. If they were rogues, why does one of them still have a job with peta?

[Solo_in_MD]

27. But its a bogus postion as citations here in this thread indicate

Most PETA supports are well meaning but have been duped by the leadership. Hopefully they will see that sooner rather than later and support effective and real humane treatment groups.

[FlaGranny]

13. Isn't PETA

against having pet animals or using them in any way at all? I think the belief of many PETA people is that animals should exist only in the wild.

I saw an interesting show once about the animal/human relationship and how it was most likely that especially dogs attached themselves to humans by following their camps around for food scraps and eventually assisted in hunts, a kind of symbiotic relationship.

[leftyladyfrommo]

15. Animals can't exist in the wild anymore. We should give up on

that dream. Their habitats are all being destroyed.

There are only 700 mountain gorrillas left - and the stupid fighter/soldiers in that area are killing them for food. Doesn't get much more sickening than that.

Pretty soon the only safe places for them to live will be in special, guarded reserves and in zoos.

Sad but true.

[LeftyMom]

34. No.

PETA has the following fact sheets on different companion animal issues: http://www.peta.org/mc/factsheet_companion.asp
Surely no organization dedicated to the eradication of companion animals would have advice on flea control or travel with animals, let alone dangers like declawing, puppy mills and abuse. PETA employees are encouraged to bring their companion animals to work.

In case that doesn't clear it up enough, read this: http://www.peta.org/about/faq-comp.asp

[FlaGranny]

39. Is there an organization like that?

One that doesn't believe in "owning" any animal? I know I read it somewhere. I was under the impression that some people in PETA felt that way, although I never said that it was a PETA agemda. Maybe it was a vegan organization?

[leftyladyfrommo]

45. I've heard of that, too, so there are people out there who are that

radical.

[TZ]

48. ALF maybe?

The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) may be who you are thinking about. They are very radical. One of the places I used to work was vandalized by them in an effort to free lab animals (the company did do animal research but no animals were in that particular building). Working in the field of medical research and therefore dealing with animal research I know a little about some of these fringe organizations- ALF is a terrorist group in my mind and I love animals. I don't much care for PETA either. In terms of unwanted domestic animals I am impressed with the ASPCA and Humane Society. They really do good work. And before anyone jumps on me for my profession I have 2 cats that I absolutely dote on. I avoid animal work myself but understand that in some cases its necessary. I would love to have a world where we didn't use animals but at this point, its still necessary.

[Arkansas Granny]

14. PETA's position from their website:

"Good and Bad Solutions
Because of the high number of unwanted companion animals and the lack of good homes, sometimes the most humane thing that a shelter worker can do is give an animal a peaceful release from a world in which dogs and cats are often considered “surplus” and unwanted. PETA, The American Veterinary Medical Association, and The Humane Society of the United States concur that an intravenous injection of sodium pentobarbital administered by a trained professional is the kindest, most compassionate method of euthanizing animals. The American Humane Association considers this to be the only acceptable method of euthanasia for cats and dogs in animal shelters."

http://www.peta.org/MC/factsheet_display.asp?ID=39

Having lived in the country, where a lot of unwanted animals are "dumped", I can attest to the fact that most of these animals do not find homes and die from disease, starvation, bullets, etc. and euthanizing them would be more humane than the futures they face. However, to take animals from a humane shelter with a good adoption rate to euthanize them is something totally different. I don't really buy their arguments on that being a humane practice.

[leftyladyfrommo]

17. We have people here in Kansas City that spend their days

hunting for animals in the city that are in need of assistance. They provide free dog houses and straw. They take food. It is very boots on the ground.

We also have lots of rescue operations that adopt animals in shelters, put them in foster homes and then find homes for them.

These are the people that should get the donations.

[Arkansas Granny]

37. I totally agree with you. That's a wonderful thing they are doing.

[aikoaiko]

18. Wow. I've always dismissed PETA because of their stance on animal research

but this revelation is a whole new level of weirdness.

[leftyladyfrommo]

20. This is just plain arrogance. and way too much ego. n/t

[aikoaiko]

29. When you write "this" do you mean my post or PETA's actions?

[leftyladyfrommo]

35. Sorry - I meant PETA - not your post. n/t

[Divernan]

21. "PETA's Horrible Secret"

When I googled PETA, I came up with this article, admittedly from a conservative source, but facts are the facts, whoever digs them up. And from looking at some of the other articles in my google search, it appears that PETA doesn't believe in having animals as domestic pets.

www.nokillnow.com/PETAPart1HorribleSecrets.htm

PETA: Lies, Abuse, and Death
by Dave Gibson, Columnist

September 3, 2003

TAP EXCLUSIVE!!

First of Three Parts

Part I: PETA's Horrible Secret
************************
That's right, this warm fuzzy bastion of animal rights kills every once beloved family pet who has the misfortune of being carried through PETA's doors. People take animals to PETA instead of local shelters because they believe that they will be placed into a home and will not be put down. Unlike local animal shelters, PETA doesn't even bother trying to find homes for these pets. All of them are killed within a few hours. In fact, PETA has gone through several area vets, and they refused to euthanize healthy animals. Finally PETA constructed their own facilities for this practice.

A former PETA employee spoke of one particular incident that burned into her mind forever: A teary-eyed man showed up at PETA headquarters one day with his beloved pet rabbit. The man had grown old and sick and was no longer able to care properly for his friend. He supplied a cage, bed, toys, and even vet records for this pet. He was assured by PETA workers that they would take "good care" of his rabbit and find him a home. The man left distraught but no doubt believing that his friend would be able to live out the rest of his life in a loving, compassionate home...PETA workers carried him to the 'death house' immediately and ended his life!

PETA doesn't stop with animals who are dropped off at their facility. No, they actively seek out animals throughout the community to kill. PETA sets traps to catch roaming animals all over Hampton Roads. These traps are designed to catch cats, many of these are not just strays but people's pets. They have even ventured onto a local federal installation, where they captured dozens of cats and immediately killed them. The cats at this particular facility were living in a 'feral cat colony'. They were well fed, spayed and neutered, and received regular veterinary care at the expense of the government workers. PETA in their renowned arrogance decided that they knew better and illegally entered the installation several times, stole these people's cats and ended their lives.

PETA employees and volunteers regularly enter private property to capture animals, which according to former PETA employees are often times people's pets - someone's cat out for a midnight stroll or even just sitting in their owner's yard! Car loads of cats are regularly brought to PETA headquarters by employees and volunteers whose job it is to 'round them up'. One such volunteer has brought in hundreds of cats, many wearing tags bearing the name and address of their owner. The animals are loaded into a small storage shed, where they sometimes sit for several hours in the heat and cold...awaiting their date with the executioner.
**********************************

[Beaverhausen]

50. Did you look to see the source of this article?

It's a right wing corporate front site- big tobacco, big alcohol and big oil. Thanks for posting their propaganda here. :eyes:

[Divernan]

23. Hey, dog & cat owners, vote this thread up for greatest page, please.

nt

[Divernan]

24. Sorry, dupe

nt

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. After Reading Some Of The Articles I Find Them Disgraceful. Not That I Respected PETA To Begin With

But I had no idea they euthanize that many animals.

PETA is just one more false front that uses people's passions to boost their egos and bring in the dough. They're as much a fraud as anyone else in my opinion, and extremists to boot. But I was a bit taken aback by these articles. I had no idea they euthanized at that rate. They're just disgusting to me.

[MindPilot]

31. Almost as horrifying as the euthanasia

Is the fact that they thought it was OK to just toss the remains in a dumpster.

[LeftyMom]

32. This was all gone into in depth a year and a half ago or so when it happened.

Short answers:

PETA offered to handle humane euthanasia for some rural animal control agencies that were using gas or a .22 previously. These shelters did not believe these animals would be adopted out, many of these rural shelters have no adoption facilities of their own and minimal ability to protect animals from the elements and are merely places where strays are rounded up, stored and killed. PETA had worked to change this, with little cooperation. After this incident, several involved shelters received large donations from the Center For Consumer Freedom, a right wing front group for the tobacco and junk food industries set up by a DC lobbying firm that has a real hard on for PETA. As a result, the assertion that they believed these animals would be adopted out is more than a bit suspect, especially since PETA does not run an adoption facility.

So these animals were never going to be adopted out, and were unfortunately going to be euthanized, whether by gas or gun at a municipal pound or with a painless shot by one of PETA's employees. The issue was the illegal and unsanitary dumping, and the people involved were promptly fired by PETA because that simply wasn't acceptable. I've never heard an explanation as to what on earth they did such a stupid, disrespectful and disgusting thing for and I rather doubt one is forthcoming.

[yewberry]

36. Okay, I'm not a "PETA person" (photo enclosed, not graphic)

but here I am again. So, while I am not an expert and don't have all of the answers you (or I) want, some of the things in this thread have to be cleared up.

First, there are some things to be aware of when you look to the CCF as a source. They are not credible. The http://sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_Consumer_Freedom">CCF is a front group for alcohol, tobacco and restaurant industries. Some of the other groups that have been targeted by the CCF include such radicals as the CDC, the NTSB, Ralph Nader's Public Citizen, the AMA, and the Harvard School of Public Health.

Also, people should be aware that PeTA isn't an adoption or placement service. They are not a shelter. While they do take in animals on a very limited basis, their adoption rates are very low for a reason: they provide euthanasia services for facilities that can't afford to do it humanely.

This is the gas chamber that the Bertie County shelter was using before PeTA began funding the shelter. There were reports of animals being put down with a .22. Some of the shelters that PeTA works with in NC didn't have any kind of adoption procedure in place at all to begin with--and as shitty as it is, I have to say that an injection is a kinder way to die than a shot to the head. PeTA has been doing this for years and has made no secret of it. (That's a big part of the reason that the Ahoskie story makes no sense to me. How come *I* knew that PeTA was providing euthanasia and not adoption services, but the shelters didn't?)

As for the notion that PeTA is against people keeping animals as companions: no.

[Hippo_Tron]

41. I'd agree with you about gas, but I'm not sure what the problem is with a .22

Being shot in the head is painless, and since the animal doesn't know what a gun is, it's not going to scare them. How do we know that a needle won't keep them alive but suffocating for an hour like lethal injections have for some instances for humans?

[yewberry]

43. Well,

being shot in the head is painless in the best case and I'm not sure that that's the norm in these shelters. I do think it could certainly be frightening for an animal to be brought outside away from other animals (again, best case) and shot. At the same time, that kind of thing can be very demoralizing for shelter staff.

Regarding the injections, they use sodium pentobarbital. It's much faster and kinder than CO or paralytic agents.

[Hippo_Tron]

44. Thanks for clearing that up

[originalpckelly]

38. Damn PETAphiles.

[BlooInBloo]

40. They're a fine example of the poverty of end-justifies-means thinking.

[Zhade]

42. This is one reason why I have no respect for PETA.

Another is their financial support of a couple of violent animal-rights people on trial (have to google their names to remember them).

One question: PETA doesn't want humans to eat meat because an animal has to die, but are they okay with us eating the animals THEY kill?

(Okay, that was snarky - and weird, since I don't eat cats and dogs. But their hypocrisy on killing animals is unsettling nonetheless.)

[Cooley Hurd]

46. There should be a 5 year moratorium on breeding cats and dogs...

Of course, such a thing would be impossible to enforce, but, with a high-profile campaign that would shame mass-breeders as well as the chain pet stores from selling puppies and kittens (instead, pointing prospective owners to their nearest shelters or rescue networks), it could make a difference.:thumbsup:

[Marie26]

47. It's horrifying, and true

And those two weren't rogue operators - it's standard practice for PETA to pick up animals from NC shelters & transport them to a Virginia site for euthanasia. Up to 90% of animals they pick up are killed in this way. This is totally illegal, because NC requires a veternarian to perform euthanasias. As far as PETA is concerned, the only thing these two did wrong was failing to dispose of the bodies in the proper way. PETA still employs one of them - they couldn't have been very "rogue."

[drbtg1]

49. WATCH the PETA episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit, now on DVD

Unfortunately, it has assholes like Dennis Prager and Ted Nugent, but there's also some interesting info in there, a lot of it coming from tax returns. Not just about them killing dogs, but also about the hypocrisy of Mary Beth Sweetland and their support of terrorists like Rod Coronado.