IMO it is abuse to take a powerless person and put them in a confined area and fill

[Toots]

that area with toxic fumes, (poisonous dangerous fumes). People under eighteen years old are considered powerless and that is why we have laws to protect children. IMO to smoke in a car with persons under the age of eighteen years old is ABUSE. They have no power to make you stop, so they are forced to endure your homemade gas chamber. One state has just passed a law making this a crime and another is considering doing the same thing. Please explain to me why all fifty states should not follow suit. Why is this not ABUSE? There is no longer any question that second hand smoke is TOXIC and DANGEROUS.

[Glorfindel]

1. I can't explain why the 50 states shouldn't - I agree with you

certainly it's abuse and should be stopped. I say this as a former smoker, though I've never had children to subject to this treatment, thank goodness.

[alfredo]

2. You reminded me of the "mother of the year." She had an

"abortion stops a beating heart" bumper sticker on her poorly maintained Detroit iron. In her lap was a baby. She had a cigarette in her mouth. One hand was holding the baby, the other hand steering the car. the car may not have had an airbag, so I guess the baby will offer a bit of protection. I don't remember if she was wearing a seat belt.

I hated riding in a car with a smoker. They always took it as an insult if I opened a window.

[neoblues]

3. While I tend to agree...

the other side of me wonders "what ever happened to freedom and liberty?". If we have just about every action in life legislated into laws, what freedoms will we have left. It's almost to the point people have to be educated/specifically informed of the many laws in order to even be able to avoid breaking the law.

With just smokers, I suppose the relevant regulations could be included in tiny print on a warning pamphlet included on each package, as well as radio/tv ads and/or signs on the highways...

This particular proposal isn't really the problem I'm groping around trying to express; it's more that I'm feeling like the government shouldn't have to step in and tell everyone how to live their lives in such minute detail. Certainly there are important instances in which we need government protections, but have we begun to go too far?

[Toots]

4. Shouldn't we then have the "Freedom and Liberty" to have sex with ten year olds?

Your freedom should not impose on other's freedom like freedom to breath clean air...

[cynatnite]

9. Geez, that sounds like Santorum's having sex with dogs argument...

when he talks about gay marriage :eyes:

[Toots]

13. No it sounds like abusing children in many different ways

You seem to think it is just fine to do that...

[cynatnite]

17. Oh, please

:eyes: Comparing smoking around kids to having sex with ten year olds is ludicrous.

[TransitJohn]

5. Uhhhh

There is no longer any question that second hand smoke is TOXIC and DANGEROUS.

The Google is your friend.
:popcorn:

[cynatnite]

6. Do you support the law applying to people in their homes? n/t

[Toots]

7. No and here is why

Your house has many rooms and avenues of escape. The child is not locked and strapped in as they are in an automobile. While I think a responsible adult would not subject their child in such a manner there is a means of escape. I don't care if you want to smoke. That is entirely up to you and none of my concern. It is when you bring your smoke public that I object or when you force it upon those unable to object or get awy from it..

[cynatnite]

8. How do you know how big my house is?

Maybe it's a small apartment or maybe a tiny trailer? If I want to smoke in public, that's my right. If a business owner doesn't want smoking in his or her establishment that's their right, but I don't think the government has the right.

I don't support this law at all. It infringes on private behavior that is legal. What I do support is the government doing more to encourage people to quit smoking rather than penalizing them for it.

[Toots]

11. So you wish to lock your children in and strap them down (seatbelts) and fill the room

with gaseous fumes. Nice parent indeed....

[cynatnite]

15. Eastman Chemical Plant is only a few miles away...

Looking out the window you can see the crap spewing into the air. When you drive over the river their sludge is pouring out of the plant into the water. We also have a battery plant in the area which has caused huge problems with lead poisoning. That's not counting the nuclear waste disposal plant and the military ammo depot, too.

As I said, encouraging people to quit smoking by offering free cessation products and classes is a far better way to go rather than penalizing them for private legal behavior. If anyone should be shamed it should be those corporations who continue to pollute our air, water and earth.

Nice try, though.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

18. You mean, when they're in the car while it idles in heavy traffic? n/t

MKJ

[MindPilot]

20. A little science here...

Aren't fumes--by definition--any chemical compound in a gaseous state?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

10. I'm a non smoker and don't agree. I can't help but wonder why one sees so many impassioned posts

against second hand smoke, yet rarely see that same frequency and vitriol aimed at corporations or the manufacturers of internal combustion engines, which are responsible for most of the toxic crap spilled into our air.

The kids are also trapped in cars which idle in traffic, producing a high level of carbon monoxide.

Another example of distract, divide and conquer.

Every single smoker could quit, and our air quality would still suck. MKJ

edited to say I don't agree...the one time I didn't proof read.

[Toots]

12. Because there are bank robbers I should be allowed to steal from you..

Is that your logic?

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

16. LOL. I'm saying smokers are teeny, tiny factor in the poisoning of our air.

You choose to focus your energy on folks upon whom you want to pass judgement. If you're truly concerned about the air quality around our children, then smokers make almost zero difference in the scheme of things.

MKJ

[MindPilot]

19. Actually the average home--especially in colder climates

is more tightly sealed than the average car. Here's a short dissertation on the nasty stuff that may be living in your home or office HVAC system.


Fungi (molds)
Up to 200,000 species, at least 45 species known to cause illness.Fungi are plants and range from single cell organisms e.g. yeast to multicellular forms. Multicellular fungi have a body mass (mycelium) plus turbular filaments called hyphae.

In 1950's studies established a relationship between malaise, cough, shortness of breath and contaminated humidifiers, whether these are personal humidifiers or in air conditioning systems.

Bacterial contamination of humidifier systems in hospitals has been associated with post-operative wound infections.

Effects of contamination greatest in places where there is organic dust available to contaminate humidifier e.g. wood, paper, and textiles.

Illness occurs when worker returns to work after a period away from work and symptoms are those of an influenza-like illness with general malaise, cough, shortness of breath, etc. Sometimes called "Monday sickness"! Disease predominates in winter months and after air conditioning shut down.

HF is thought to be an allergic response to allergans--viable cells, spores, dead cellular material (proteins, polysaccharides).

Dead cellular material are typically less than 0.5µm and therefore capable of deep lung penetration.

Type of organisms which develop in humidifiers depend on: - nutrient content of water - pH of water - temperature of water

Also initial microbial colonies may produce waste products which become the nutrients for other organisms, which may result in a growth chain--a succession of organisms:

Contaminated humidifiers typically will have surface slime on sides.

Asthma - may be provoked both indoors and outdoors by house dust, animal proteins, fungal spores, pollens, molds etc. E.g. house dust mite (Dermatophagoides farinae (US) and Dermatophagoides pteronyssinus) that live in mattresses, furniture stuffing, etc. Numbers increase with increased humidity and increased temperature.

DUST MITES
An ounce of house dust can contain 42,000 mites Each year 43 million tons of dust settle over USA: 31 million tons are natural, 12 million tons are man-made. Each body sheds about 50 million skin scales per day. Virtually every house contains dust mites. 10-15% of people have allergy to dust mites, 80% of these are allergic to feces, 20% are allergic to proteins in parts of the mite. Membrane covers the mite feces pellet and it is so strong that after 16 hours in salt water it doesn't break down. The allergy-causing potential remains for months! Mite counts normally highest in bedrooms where there is the highest dead skin counts. Each mattress contains 1-2 million mites. Each m2 material contains 1000-10,000 mites.

Actinomycetes - filamentous bacteria that resemble fungi in appearance. Heat-tolerant (grow at 55°C) thermophilic actinomycetes e.g. thermoactinomyces candidus associated with farmer's lung. Optimum growth at 25°C e.g. Streptomyces

Nevalainen et al. (1990) - studied 50 problem sites in homes, offices, schools, and day-care centers in Finland and sampled for bioaerosols. Controls were 107 sites (offices, homes, day-care centers). Results showed that

Streptomycetes - (a mesophilic actinomycetes) were present in 70% of samples from problem sites but in less than 10% of control sites. Streptomycetes also have an intense, "moldy" odor. More research needed on this because little is known about the health effects of mesophilic actinomycetes.

Respirable Particulates/Fibers
Asbestos - collective term for a variety of asbestiform materials which comprise thin, long fibers of certain minerals. Asbestos comprises 2 mineral groups: serpentine - chrysotile - layered tubes/fibers amphibole - crystalline structures 95% of asbestos use in USA is chrysotile.

Chrysotile (Greek - ("golden hair") - fibrous magnesium silicate. Fibers have higher tensile strength and are less acid resistant than other forms. Fibers are white and silky. Fibers are actually tubes of mineral. Estimated that 733,000 commercial buildings and 30,000 schools built prior to 1970 have asbestos in them. Asbestos is, or was, in a variety of products: ceiling tile, plaster, brake shoes, insulation, fire retardent, shingles, vinyl tiles, etc. Asbestos is only dangerous when fibers become airborne i.e. when product is cut, broken, drilled, sanded, abraded.

Friable asbestos is in applications such as when this was sprayed or troweled onto walls, ceilings, structural components of non-residential buildings as fire retardant or insulation around pipes.

Asbestosis - inhalation of asbestos fibers leads to a type of pneumoconiosis (asbestosis) and mesothelioma (lung cancer). Fibers remain in lungs for many years and cause fibrosis--stiffening of lungs long after exposure. Cigarette smoking aggravates asbestosis.

http://ergo.human.cornell.edu/studentdownloads/DEA350notes/Vent/ventnotes.html

[MindPilot]

14. You would also have to require not only that automakers

install VOC filters on the a/c intakes but also require retrofits for older vehicles. And of course once again placing the most of the compliance burden on the least able to afford it.

While there is no doubt that smoking around kids is not the best thing to enhance their health, the junk your car's ventilation system ingests from the old Pontiac sitting in front of you at the light is far worse.

Laws like this are not about child safety; they are about giving the police yet one more reason to pull you over, check your papers and conduct a warrantless search. And we all know that it won't be Muffy Smith in her Escalade who gets stopped, but Jose Hernandez in his ratty old Tercel.