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I love the changes that the democratically elected Chavez (62%) is making in

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LaPera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 11:05 PM
Original message
I love the changes that the democratically elected Chavez (62%) is making in
Edited on Sun Jan-21-07 11:07 PM by LaPera
his country....

"Chavez, who was re-elected by a wide margin last month, has said he will enact sweeping reforms to remake Venezuela into a socialist state. Among his plans are nationalizing the main telecommunications company and the electricity and natural gas sectors.

Criticizing excessive consumption and self-indulgence, Chavez also announced plans in his broadcast to raise domestic gasoline prices and approve a new tax on luxury goods such as private yachts, second homes and extravagant automobiles.

He did not give details on the gas price hike, which he said would not affect bus drivers who provide public transportation, or the luxury tax. He said revenue from the new measures would be put toward government social programs.

Venezuela is one of the world's leading petroleum exporters and gasoline now costs as little as 12 cents a gallon.

President Hugo Chavez told U.S. officials to "Go to hell, gringos!" and called Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice "missy" on his weekly radio and TV show Sunday, lashing out at Washington for what he called unacceptable meddling in Venezuelan affairs.

"They took out Saddam Hussein and they hung him, for good or worse. It's not up to me to judge any government, but that gentleman was the president of that country."

Chavez has consistently accused the U.S. of conspiring to oust him and often asserts the CIA is working to destabilize his government. U.S. officials have denied trying to overthrow Chavez, but they have labeled him a threat to democracy.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2007/01/21/international/i141856S46.DTL
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-21-07 11:56 PM
Response to Original message
1. remake Venezuela into a socialist state.... i have listened to many of supporters
on du insist chavez is not a socialist and not out to create a socialist state. i am confused.
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Some people, like you maybe, think "socialist" means the same as fascist.
Others (like me) think it means something like "democratic," "just," or "egalitarian" when used by Chavez. Labels are strange things.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. I'm with you...However....
I consider myself a caring, sharing, radical democratic believer that absolutely leans towards socialism and liberalism as the ONLY way to save this planet!!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. you are wrong. i see socialism placing under public control
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 12:22 AM by seabeyond
and it seems be exactly what he is doing. chavez is placing under public ownership and control. that is the definition of socialism, not what you "believe" i think it is or how you may define it. so when the people that are suporting me tell me chavez is not a socialist, i have to go from the definition of socialist, not what you define it as.
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GreenTea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Well it seems to me you believe excess is acceptable if one has the
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 12:40 AM by GreenTea
money & bribes to exploit...I believe you see no problem in the extremes between rich and poor and its just a way of life, as we've all been programed...You believe in capitalism, which can never work without massive regulations and certainly not regulated by the capitalist themselves as is always the case because capitalism itself dictates corruption for profit motive....the rich just continue to pay off law makers as they always have in order to deregulate, to take more & pollute more, So by definition capitalist ideology leaves no room but to fuck the have-nots and the less fortunate while offering nothing in the way of fairness in wages, nor health care for workers families because of course it cuts into the capitalist profits....they keep workers as disposal property only to increase their huge outrageous profit margins...give me socialism & liberalism any time...fuck capitalism!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. wow... you had a whole conversation from me saying chavez? a socialist?
then giving a definition of socialism

and i said all that huh?
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ConsAreLiars Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #6
17. Like Roosevelt, then.
I'm OK with that. The TVA, WPA, CCC, breaking down monopolies and such all seemed smart and just. Do you agree?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 03:25 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Yes, there are many parallels between FDR and Chavez. FDR, too, was
accused of being a socialist, a communist and a dictator. But the key to what is really happening is transparent elections. The U.S. at that time had real elections--not elections in which rightwing Bushite corporations "count" all the votes with "trade secret," proprietary programming code, with virtually no audit/recount controls (our current absurd situation). And Venezuela's elections are the most highly monitored in the democratic world--by the OAS, the Carter Center, and EU groups. (They hand-count a whopping 55% of the votes, as a check against machine fraud.) FDR was in office for FOUR terms as President, and died in office in his fourth term. Chavez is in his 7th year as president (2nd term), and wants the National Assembly to change the Constitution so that he can run for a third term. And what is the difference from FDR, if Chavez is ELECTED to a third term, or a fourth? There is no difference. Both achieved power through democratic elections, as the choice of the people, who would likely never vote for a dictator, but WOULD vote for a strong leader to take strong measures, such as revamping the economy in an economic crisis caused by the rich. Many people in Venezuela face Great Depression levels of poverty because of prior administrations' misrule and looting by the rich in collusion with US-based global corporate predators. They want Chavez to take charge of this matter, and push through policies of reform. A very similar situation to the U.S. in the early '30s.
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Could you provide a link?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. i am sorry? what? the first or second sentence of the op is what i was refering to
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. You wrote that many DU Chavez supporters say he is not a socialist. Any links?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:35 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. no i do not have a link to threads months ago. are you saying that
du'ers knew and were saying all along chavez was a socialist? is that your issue?
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oblivious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I remember some DUers objecting to his being called a communist, but not socialist.
So I'm wondering in what context you saw people objecting to him being called a socialist.

No matter if it was a long time ago. I just didn't remember that.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. could have been up to a year ago and not sure what all the chavez threads were about
but i started doing massive googling on venz and chavez trying to figure out all of his country, the history and what he was about. i was reading many opinions from a lot of people trying to get as much of the story as i could. that is what i remember coming out with from the chavez supporters. probably communist was thrown in there too and fascist. but cuba is socialist and i know they were saying he was not a cuba even though he supported fidel.

i am not a chavez hater, or lover. i am sittin back watching and listening and see what develops. i have my feel on it,.... but it is a guess on my part so not willing to put out a statement on the man. i hardly see that it is our business anymore than the govt of any other countries. i am simply looking for information for knowledge sake.
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La Lioness Priyanka Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #1
24. socialist state and communist states are different.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. ya... and.. so... ok... ???? n/t
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
3. If President Chavez was concerned about foreign ownership...
Edited on Mon Jan-22-07 12:06 AM by originalpckelly
of Venezuela's telecom, why not pass a law requiring Venezuelan ownership of such an important asset? Many nations do that sort of thing.

And why not break up the monopoly?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The relevant fact is Venezuela's telecom network was originally publicly owned.
Much like public utilities. In the 1990s, it was privatized and sold to a for-profit corporation. He's not seeking to break it up. He's seeking to reclaim it.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. Why not break it up though?
And why not specify that GTE may not own it?

What's the point in keeping it a monopoly? Why not split it up into regional companies small enough to really compete with one another?
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 12:41 AM
Response to Reply #7
15. That depends on the definition of "nationalize"
For instance, under market socialism, the firm is taken over by the state. It's broken up into several regional worker co-ops. The workers are given control over these regional entities, and they manage their affairs using workplace democracy, but public banks that may provide assistance or technical advice serve as a regulating mechanism. Each firm is free to determine prices for goods and services according to the market. In certain cases, it may be desireable for the government to intervene. If prices are too high for phone service, the public banks could regulate them all by offering incentives to cut prices or other mechanisms.

Of course, this is merely speculation on my part. Not all socialists are market socialists.

Also, it also depends on what exactly one wishes to be a public service or a private one. Does one want the US Postal Service to be broken apart into several pieces and sold to for-profit corporations? Does one want Social Security to be broken apart and sold to for-profit corporations? How about Medicare? How about utility companies?
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 03:10 AM
Response to Original message
18. I love Venezuelans' directness. They are so funny. Here's a thread where
the Vice President said the Bushites need Valium, they are so freaked out about Chavez not renewing RCTV's license to use the public airwaves.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2698054

Missy! I love it! Go to hell, gringos!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Here's a good site on Venezuela's economy, politics and other matters: www.venezuelanalysis.com

It's a mixed socialist/capitalist economy with a strong component of social justice--but perhaps the main key is Bolivarianism, the concept of South American self-determination, named after the great revolutionary hero, Simon Bolivar, who led the fight to free South America from Spain, and dreamed of a United States of South America. If you understand Bolivarianism--this guiding philosophy of the great democracy movement in South America of which Chavez is just one spokesman and leader--you will understand that Chavez's economics are not ideological, they are pragmatic, with the goal of South American independence from the great exploiter and oppressor in the north, the U.S., which has repeatedly backed heinous dictators and policies of assassination, torture and genocide in Latin America, capped by the invasion of US-based global corporate predators who have ruined the economies of many countries and left a vast population of impoverished people, who never benefit from their own country's resources or their own labor. The nationalization of the telecom network, or oil, these are not based on ideology (for instance, Marxism), but rather on the goal of South American independence and the democratization of the use of its resources. Chavez doesn't mind dealing with Exxon-Mobile on an equal basis, with the understanding that the oil belongs to Venezuela. It is patriotic. As Evo Morales--the first indigenous president of Bolivia--has said: "We want partners not masters." It's as simple as that. And socialist policies are the quickest way to get there: to South Americans making the decisions about their resources, their economy, their regulations and taxes, their future, rather than the US-controlled World Bank/IMF, Exxon-Mobile, Bechtel and other capitalist predators.

So in Venezuela you find a thriving private sector--big growth in that sector last year--and lots of development--the new Orinoco bridge, low cost housing construction, plans for a gas pipeline, new factories (including co-ops), land reform (to help keep small farmers on the land--for food self-sufficiency), the fruits of loans and grants to small business (lots of new small businesses), a revival of local music and other arts, and other very positive, creative, industrious activity, as well as the promotion of regional cooperations, for instance, in the South American trade group, Mercosur. It appears to me that the Venezuelans (and other South Americans) are taking the best from all worlds. Private property is protected, and cannot be taken without compensation (--guaranteed by the Bolivarian Constitution, and enforced by the Chavez government). They are not taking land and property from the rich (as has happened in communist revolutions). They are aiming at equity--at the poor having a chance. Education, for instance, is a very big new item--schools, free university education, new universities established, and a far reaching adult literacy program, as well as programs to keep kids in school. The rich oil elite that was running the country prior to the Chavez government utterly neglected these things--the things that make a good country, a strong country, a country with a future. And this is why the Chavez government is so incredibly popular in Venezuela, and why the Bolivarian revolution is spreading like wildfire over the whole continent.
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and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 03:21 AM
Response to Original message
19. 12 cents a gallon?
I think Venezuela could supass the US in social responsiablity. SOCIALISM is a good thing or at least can be if implemented correctly, there is a down side to it but I can not recall what that is exactly. With China on high, I wouldnt be surprised if they decided to stop selling us oil in the future.

I dont see how Chavez could be a threat to democracy, thats rediculous. He makes the GOP look like shit thats for sure, I think thats what * means by a "threat"...

Chavez's plans sound great and make sence to me, the states could sure use a plan like that.
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Manifestor_of_Light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. Sounds like mixed socialism and regulated capitalism. n/t
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
22. I'll join in that sentiment.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. Chavez is helping his people...which is more than can be said for * & Co...
and of course a pro Chavez thread here on DU attracks the naysayers from the woodwork once more. :eyes:

I don't know whether to :puke: or :popcorn:
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OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
25. You Mean Like Ruling By Decree? What A Power Hungry Jackass He Is. n/t
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genie_weenie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-22-07 10:28 AM
Response to Original message
27. A Feudal State is only *good* if you
a lord not a serf. However, I'm glad the exploitation of Venezuelan people will transfer from US Oil firms and other corporations and to their own National Assembly.
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