New Catholic town may keep birth control out - Jews too I wonder?

[NNN0LHI]

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/cst-nws-mon28.html

The founder of Domino's Pizza is starting a Florida town where he will build a Catholic university -- and possibly keep out contraception.

Tom Monaghan, who sold Domino's years ago, is using his fortune to help construct Ave Maria, a town and school near Naples, Fla.

"I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil," he was quoted as saying this week by Newsweek. "I don't want to be on the sidelines."

Monaghan, a conservative Catholic, controls the commercial real estate in Ave Maria along with a developer, the magazine said.

I sure am glad Domino's Pizza blows and I won't have to boycott something I actually would consider buying.

[msongs]

1. is he gonna keep out PIZZA HUT hehehehehe nt

Msongs
www.msongs.com/democratsmugs.htm

[Nikki Stone 1]

2. This shouldn't be allowed in a democractic society...oh, I forgot....

we're a theocracy now.

[BattyDem]

3. Assuming he actually gets this town up and running ...

wouldn't it get government money at some point for infrastructure? If so, how would it be legal for him to maintain a Catholic town that recognizes Catholic rules over state and federal laws? :shrug:

[Freedom_Aflaim]

8. You could proably do it legally.

Sell the propertys Fee Simple Conditional subject to xyz rules.

The rules of which are a list of do and don'ts, and if they are smart, wouldnt reference any religion.

Having said that, its not uncommon for people to deed land to churches conditional that the land be used for religous purposed. very legal and common (my wifes parents did this).

I guess if you are dumb enough to buy the house/land subject to those rules, then you get what you deserve.

[BattyDem]

11. I understand what you're saying, but ...

it doesn't sound like he intends it to be "private property" - he wants a town and if that town is going to have public education, water and power lines, a post office, or any other kind of government-funded infrastructure, he would have to follow the law, wouldn't he?

I know gated communities have many rules, but they aren't actual "towns", they are private communties within a town and to the best of my knowledge, the rules don't tell people what religion they can practice or what kind of medication (birth control IS a medication) they can take.

I'm not arguing with you - I certainly don't know enough about the topic to argue with anyone, LOL - I'm just trying to figure out how it would be legal. :shrug: Then again, I approach everything as if we live in a democracy ... and I guess that's not exactly true anymore. :-(

[Freedom_Aflaim]

22. I see your points as well and you might be right

While I have some education and background in real estate, I really havent spent any time studying how to setup "fundy towns" :) I suspect that if they get a good lawyer, they could accomplish much of what they have in mind.

Having said that, in the ABSOLUTE BEST CASE (for them), this skirts dangerously close to violating fair housing laws, one of which is that you cant discriminate against folks religous reasons.

So if they said "Catholics only", there is no way they can enforce that. But if they say "no birth control", that isnt inherently religious on it own.

In my expert guestimation :), it'll proably come down to politics of the judge (which is virtually assured to be in a court sooner or later. If not the owners, then certainly their heirs)

While Im not Catholic, I am Christian, but I sure as hell wouldnt want to live in a town that dictates how I conduct my faith at this level (any level for that matter). I really don't understand why anyone would.

[BattyDem]

23. I'd love to know how they intend on enforcing a "no birth control" rule

What will they do? Go through your garbage looking for empty birth control dispensers or used condoms? :eyes: Could you be evicted for a vasectomy or a tubal ligation and if so, how would they know you had the procedure done? :shrug:

I'm with you ... I don't understand why anyone would agree to live under such restrictions. Don't they trust themselves to make their own decisions?

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

37. They would enforce it old-school Castro-style,

meaning that there would be a nebby-nosed curtain-swisher on each block who would take the time to notice if each woman was shopping at the approved town pharmacy where there is no birth control, or is she shopping out of town? The nosy person would then let it be known.

I worked with gay guys from Cuba 20 years ago, and that is how they got put in prison for being gay, they were reported by the local nosy person on their block.

[pstokely]

28. Expect overcrowding in this town's schools.

A permanent baby boom.

[BattyDem]

66. LOL! I never thought of that

Winthin a few years, they'll have a first grade class of 562 children! It would take 2 hours just to take attendance. :P

[LostinVA]

49. Yeah, I don't legally think he could do this

[ikojo]

71. There are towns in New York that are primarily

populated by Satmar Hasidim, I'm thinking of Kiryas Joel.

[Wilber_Stool]

4. Another great mind from

the 14th century.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

5. lol. I'd love to see the Home Owners Association rules

On that one.

Dear Mr Smith,

"A random inspection of your gargage has turned up used condoms and birth control pill recepticles. Pursuit to regulation 666 of your covenants and restrictions, we have initiated foreclosure proceedings against your property. If you repent now, while you may be homeless, at least you won't burn in hell".

Best Regards,
H. Heimler, HOA President

[hopeisaplace]

12. "regulation 666" that's hysterical!

:rofl: :rofl:

[BattyDem]

13. "Pursuit to regulation 666"

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[DBoon]

16. Wrong

Catholics don't "repent", they "confess" to a priest, who then absolves them.

This sounds even sillier in a CC&R document than "repent".

[napi21]

6. There are some Catholics like him still... but not very many.

Believe me, I am Catholic, and so are most of my friends and relatives. ALL of them took BCP's over the years. I know I was taught the only method of BS was the rythem method, but I was also taught not to eat meat on Fridays, females must wear a cover on their head while in church, and probably the most stressed was that you could NEVER touch the eucharist.

GUESS WHAT? ALL but the BC has been changed by the Church!

I took BC pills for a number of years too, and never felt the least but of guilt of that I was sinning either.

[kestrel91316]

19. What the heck is the eucharist? I have heard the word, but I have

no clue what it is (me being nominally Presbyterian, but utterly nonpracticing, and a neopagan ecofeminist in spirit anyway, lol).

[napi21]

20. Sorry, it's the host given at communion.

You know...the little flat round wafer.

[kestrel91316]

24. Now I am really confused..............

If in the past you were NOT supposed to touch the eucharist, how the heck were you supposed to consume it (in that act of cannibalism that has me shaking my head over some of Christianity's more peculiar dogmas)???

[napi21]

25. The priest put the wafer on your toung.

Maybe I didn't explain it very well.

Now the priest OR his assistant puts the host (wafer) in your hand and you pick it up yourself and put it in your mouth.

It's just another example of how things have changed so much since I was a little kid. Used to be cause to go to hell if you ever touched a host!

[libhill]

33. Interesting -

might as well call it Protestant Lite -

[LostinVA]

51. Kinda the other way around

[kestrel91316]

38. I get it now - the bad thing was touching with THE HAND..

[LostinVA]

50. And, a paten was held under the host/your mouth

Lest any part of the Body of Christ fell to the floor.

[demosincebirth]

27. She was asking a leading question, napi21

you fell for it.

[TahitiNut]

39. It's NOT a "wafer" to a Roman Catholic ... for whom transubstantiation is

... Church dogma. It's the "body of Christ." Lutherans, on the other hand, believe (according to dogma) in cosubstantiation. Other Protestant sects generally regard the host as symbolic or dynamic.

[LostinVA]

52. Actually, this ex-CDD teacher will say: "Not 100% true!"

The Eucharists is technically: The SACRAMENT of taking the elements of the Eucharist, although the elements themselves can be called the "Eucharist." But, the primary definition is, indeed, the holy sacrament.

[BattyDem]

21. eucharist = Communion wafer

And these days, the priest puts it in the palm of your hand, so I guess that rule went out the window, too. :eyes:

On edit: I used to love the taste of those things! I no longer consider myself Catholic, so I don't get to have them anymore ... but they were good. :-)

[Kber]

55. My mom taught me the rythem method as well as other techniques

(like the pill).

She also taught me that women who use the rythem method exclusively are usually called "Mommy".

[aquart]

7. Florida? Where the hurricanes are?

If he has enough cash to build a town and a university, then he is insufficiently taxed.

[madrchsod]

9. 50 years it will be under water--

so tom better start building an ark

[Xeric]

10. Nothing new

As creepy as this sounds, its as American as apple pie.
Many towns were founded by various religious cults and kooks over the years.
For example the town of Zion, Illinois:

"Lake County, 41 miles N of the Loop. On New Year's Day 1900, John Alexander Dowie announced to the church he had established in 1896, the Christian Catholic Apostolic Church, that he planned to build a utopian city on a tract of land at the extreme northeastern edge of Illinois. When Zion City was incorporated in 1902, 5,000 inhabitants joined the Christian utopia. Named after the mountain upon which Jerusalem was built, Zion City was to be communitarian and theocratic, a place of Christian cooperation, racial harmony, and strict fundamentalist morals."
http://www.encyclopedia.chicagohistory.org/pages/1399.html

A few years back an atheist friend of mine sued the town to get the crosses off their street signs. I went with him to the City Council meeting. What a crowd. There were Klanners, fundies galore. We needed a police escort out of the place. But the signs came down.
And that's what will happen to this place. It may start out as Mr. Dominoes fundie paradise but reality will soon set in. And look at all the Universities that started as religious centers of learning and became secular institutions. Some day even Pat Robertson's "college" will be something other than it is now. Change happens despite every "conservatives" attempt to stop it.

[NNN0LHI]

14. Nice first post. I drove through Zion today. Welcome to DU n/t

[DBoon]

18. Change happens slowly

but as a great economist said "In the long run we will all be dead"

[SharonAnn]

43. I have a friend who grew up in Zion, IL. Lots of interesting stories..

[ignatius 2]

15. And gays, and blacks, and mentally handicapped, and brown people (that

goes without saying) and of course the dreaded "poor" people.

Will they wear armbands as well?

[mmonk]

47. I think this has to do with conservative Catholics

and contraceptives unless there is something I'm seeing beyond your opinion of Catholics. As far as Brown people go, I believe there are millions in the Catholic Church.

[ignatius 2]

70. My answer was in response to the original post which mentioned Jewish

people. I took this to mean discrimination which is what this little town is "really" all about. It is like a concept of a Stepford city where all look,act and think alike. Of course ther are many "brown" catholics but I suspect you won't find many in Gods Will, Naples, Florida.

Once discrimination begins, any discrimination, where does it end?

[hopeisaplace]

17. Someone will find a condom in their pizza and sue,

lol I think.
Future CNN News Story? - My child thought it was a balloon and tried to blow it up.

[pstokely]

26. He doesn't own that crappy pizza chain anymore.

[hunter]

29. All the homes will have extra large closets.

God only knows what will be kept in them.

[Skittles]

30. sanctimonious piece of shit

:puke:

[drhilarius]

31. I hope he keeps out those rotten Albigensians...

and their ridiculous heresy!

[libhill]

34. They shall be seized and taken away -

by the Ecclesiastical troops. Yea, and burned, even unto the steak. Or until they are steak.

[Nikki Stone 1]

45. There's a nice crusades reference

and before breakfast (on the West Coast) too.
:)

[libhill]

32. Oh yea

nothing like a return to the Middle Ages. Wonder if he can get that Inquisition thangy going again? Maybe Pat Robertson or somebody can get a Protestant town going not too far away, maybe call it Jaysusville. Then the idiot Catholics and Protestants can fight each other in the streets, just like what happened in Ireland last week. After all, we good "Christian" folk can't let them thar A-rab Sunnis and Shi'ites get a leg up on us'n, can we?

[Azathoth]

35. What the hell is with the crazy Catholic fundies lately?

From Gibson to the Schiavos to our new SOTU justices...

Is it just me, or has the nutjob faction of the Catholic church been on an aggressive campaign to raise its public profile over the last few years?

:shrug:

[zbdent]

36. Gotta remember the town name

the next time my RW brother decides to send me some more right-wing BS . . . I don't remember him going to church and Sunday School much as a teenager (or getting up early to go to Church much at all) . . . but now he's "Catholic" . . .

[Bridget Burke]

40. The ACLU says he might have a problem.

"It is completely naive to think this first attempt will be their last," the ACLU's Howard Simon told Newsweek. He argues that the Supreme Court has ruled that owning a city doesn't always equal "absolute dominion."

The ACLU may not get much support from Ave Maria's residents. According to Newsweek, the town probably will draw church-centered families, and there have been 7,000 home-buying inquiries.

(from the article)

Sounds like he's forgetting that contraception is not just used by lewd hussies having sex outside of marriage. What about good Catholic families who decide that they can't properly care for any more kids? Of course, they can just drive a few miles & get what they need. Sort of like all the dry counties in Texas--lots of liquor stores & beer joints out on the county line. At least a BC pill run will be less likely to result in a Crash on the Highway.

The Ave Maria site indicates that the County Sheriff's department & school system will cooperate. That could present legal problems.

www.avemaria.com/background/partners.asp

The planners actually have some good ideas about "ecological sustainability." Too bad those ideas will be wasted on giving jobs to pharmacists who've been fired from "real world" jobs.

This is all in the early planning stage. How many failed "communities" have left signs to rot in the Florida sun?

[DetroitProle]

61. what about women who use the pill for...

medicinal reasons? Granted, I'm not a woman, and I'm not well-versed about these things, but I know of girls who take the pill because it alleviates what would otherwise be an unbearable period- doubled over with cramps and in bed for days.

A better point is- I'm NOT a woman- and I'm NOT going to tell a woman when she can or can't use the pill. The Catholic Church doesn't seem to "get" that part.

[genie_weenie]

41. Would someone explain this to me I'm confused

Why can't Tom Monaghan set up a Catholic Town? What exactly is wrong with the idea? For that matter why can't Mr. X set up a town, and get liked minded people Ms. Y and Mr. Z, whom all share the same beliefs to join him?

[seafan]

42. More from a local TV station:

Domino's Pizza Founder Plans To Build Catholic Town

Town Will Ban Abortions, Pornography, Contraceptives

POSTED: 2:57 pm EST February 28, 2006
UPDATED: 4:31 pm EST February 28, 2006

NAPLES, Fla. -- Domino's Pizza founder Thomas S. Monaghan says he wants a new town being built in southwestern Florida to be governed by strict Catholic principles.

The town, about 25 miles west of Naples, would deny residents access to abortions, pornography and contraceptives.

The pizza magnate who was raised by nuns in orphanages is bankrolling the project with millions of dollars and calls it "God's will."

The town is being constructed around Ave Maria University, the first Catholic university to be built in the United States in four decades. Both are set to open next year.

The community, developed through a partnership with the Barron Collier Company, an agricultural and real estate firm, will be set on 5,000 acres with a European-inspired town center. It will encircle a massive church and what planners call the largest crucifix in the nation, standing nearly 65 feet tall.

Monaghan's said in a speech last year that stores won't sell pornographic magazines, pharmacies won't carry condoms or birth control pills, and cable television will carry no X-rated channels.

snip

http://www.local10.com/news/7547547/detail.html

[seafan]

48. Jeb already anointed this project.

snip

A devout Catholic who has ploughed millions into religious projects — including radio stations, primary schools and a Catholic law faculty in Michigan — Monaghan has bought about 5,000 acres previously used by migrant farmers.
The land on the western edge of the Everglades swamp will eventually house up to 30,000 people, with 5,000 students living on the university campus. Florida officials have declared the project a development bonanza for a depressed area, and Governor Jeb Bush attended a groundbreaking ceremony for the new university earlier this month.

Yet civil rights activists and other watchdogs concerned about the separation of church and state are threatening lawsuits if Ave Maria attempts to enforce Catholic dogma. Environmentalists have also complained the town will restrict the habitat of the Florida panther, an endangered species.
None of which has deterred Monaghan, who initially tried to build his new university in Michigan but could not get permission. Asked recently about possible lawsuits in Florida, he replied: “That’s great. That would be the best publicity we could get.”

snip

Sources close to the project said Monaghan was particularly disturbed by what he regards as the failure of western civilisation to resist Islamic fundamentalism. In a speech to students last year Healy warned that Islam “no longer faces a religiously dynamic West”.

Healy described the “virtual collapse of Europe” as “one of the most profound and unsettling developments of our new century”. He added: “If you consider the more telling signs, such as its plummeting birth rate, Europe does not even seem to believe in a future . . . children are a sign of hope and the fruit of obedience to God’s command to be fruitful and multiply.”

Monaghan has argued that the owners of the town’s commercial properties will be free to impose conditions in leases — notably the restriction on the sale of contraceptives. But that has been challenged by Howard Simon, executive director of the Florida branch of the American Civil Liberties Union.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2058771,00.html

[seafan]

69. Jeb: "Faith and Freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded.."

...citizens."


snip

Gov. Jeb Bush, at the site's groundbreaking earlier this month, lauded the development as a new kind of town where faith and freedom will merge to create a community of like-minded citizens. Bush, a convert to Catholicism, did not speak specifically to the proposed restrictions.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/01/ap/national/mainD8G2V2IG5.shtml

[seafan]

56. "Catholic educators nervous about pizza man's university plans "

Many officials in Catholic higher education in the US are reportedly uneasy about plans of Dominos Pizza founder Tom Monaghan to build a new Catholic university on a remote 303 hectare site near the Florida Everglades.

Monaghan, who has committed $A339 million to the project, has said the school, Ave Maria University, will be far more conservative than most of the nation's Catholic colleges and universities.

"For twenty-five years, I've felt the need for a school with more spirituality," said Monaghan. "At some Catholic universities, students graduate with their religious faith more shaky than when they arrive.... Ave Maria is for students whose faith is central to their lives."

Plans for the school, the first new Catholic university in the US in four decades, call for a Division I football team; three golf courses, including one for donors; majors as varied as theology and hotel management; and construction of a town, also called Ave Maria, built from scratch. But it's Monaghan's rigorously conservative vision for the school — a vision that has no room for coed dorms or gay-support groups — that worries many Catholic educators.

"Tom Monaghan has the agenda of a right-wing Republican, and he happens to confuse that with the teachings of the Catholic Church," commented Richard P. McBrien, a professor of theology at the University of Notre Dame. "I wish he had spent his money the way a really good Catholic would: helping the poor; helping inner-city schools, which are being suffocated through lack of money; helping the aged and infirm. Those are the teachings of Jesus Christ."

http://www.cathnews.com/news/302/69.php


So, is this the next generation of *money laundering tactics* to keep these vicious right-wing extremists in power? Maybe they will hire Jack Abramoff to raise $$$$$$$ for the building committee. :eyes:

[Bridget Burke]

63. Many Catholic colleges offer fine educations to all.

No creationism in the science department. This place--if any buildings are actually finished--looks like an exception.

From the website, this school looks pretty white. Guess this will be one Catholic school without a good basketball team.

[seafan]

64. A religious group exercising governmental power---->Taliban

ACLU opposes creation of 'Catholic town'

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) is opposed to the efforts of Domino's Pizza founder Tom Monaghan to build a Catholic town, named Ave Maria, in Florida.

In an interview with Tucker Carlson, host of “The Situation,” Florida ACLU executive director Howard Simon insisted that his organization’s opposition has nothing to do with anti-Catholicism. Rather, he said: “It’s a story about any religious group trying to exercise governmental power.”

“You’ve to make a distinction between just encouraging like-minded people to come and live in the same place with a town organized on religious principles, in which the religious group is given governmental authority,” said Simon.

snip

Carlson pointed out that towns everywhere decide what cable system it has, what types of stores it will have and if pornography can be sold. “That’s called zoning,” he said. :eyes:

Simon continued to defend his position, citing the 10-year-old U.S. Supreme Court decision, which ruled that a group of Hasidic Jews in upper New York state in a town called Kiryas Joel, could not receive government funding because it was organized around sectarian religious principles.

“And when you‘re required to conform to religious principles, that town is not fitting for governmental authority,” he said.

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=6072

[mongo]

68. Some of that article is misleading and untrue

Carlson pointed out that towns everywhere decide what cable system it has, what types of stores it will have and if pornography can be sold. “That’s called zoning,” he said.

Um, no. A municipality many impose some restrictions about where adult materials can be sold, but it must not make zoning so restrictive that there is nowhere this type of store can open.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

44. Welcome to Ave Maria..and the Dark Ages.

Enjoy yummy Domino's Pizza while watching the stonings and burnings of heretics, adulterers, and BigMac blasphemers.

[mmonk]

46. I didn't see anything in the article that indicated he was

keeping other religions out of the town.

[NNN0LHI]

58. Perhaps you missed the headline where it states "Catholic town"?

:eyes:

[mmonk]

60. Here's a hint.

Not even all Catholics go along with the birth control ideas. Here's another hint; no mention of other religions. Therefore alot of assumptions in the post. Conservative would indicate doctrine.

[mmonk]

65. Also,

it would be a very small town IMO. I wouldn't want to live there and I grew up Catholic.

[noonwitch]

53. I don't think he can legally do that.

But, hey, this is america, at least he can try.

I have a lot of issues with Monaghan, but he does support a lot of adoption programs in Michigan and probably in other states. If you are going to oppose abortion, the least you can do is support adoption programs.

[Kber]

54. Using this model

can we impliment shria law somewhere within the US as well?

[Sabriel]

57. Two questions:

1.) Would having pasta in your house be OK, if it doesn't represent the CFSM?

2.) When are DU people going to put together a town of their own? I'll help start the university.

[Norquist Nemesis]

59. "I believe all of history is just one big battle between good and evil,"

Apparently, he's living in the past and needs to wake up to the present. Part of the reason to study history is to learn and not make the same mistakes. It sounds like he either wants to rewrite history or give it another go to make the same mistakes.

[DetroitProle]

62. Waco didn't work out so well...

I wonder if things will go up in smoke for Tommy as well.

[donsu]

67. just another con man in the religion business - raking in the dough

Naples is in bushmilhousegang territory. how close is Monaghan to the gang?

[Nikki Stone 1]

72. How does the Catholic church feel about this?

DO they appreciate the help or do they feel threatened?