If Abortion is overturned

[undergroundpanther]

Than women should push for MALE STERILIZATION.

Some men have such out of control sex drives,thier desire to dominate and fuck makes them irrational and stupid and oblivious to their part in the creation of unwanted pregnancy.
Some men rape women and because of his SPERM the woman gets pregnant.. due to his out of control desire to dominate and impregnate as many women as possible,sowing wild oats must be curtailed, something must be done to curb male fertility and sexual conquest mentality. Some men commit incest because again,that testosterone issue, men have another dire socio psychological problem,a taste for domination. This power tripping problem is so severe some men are so oversexed and power hungry they cannot leave their own daughters alone and they become pregnant by their fathers who have little self control. Some men push women into sex when they are not sure they want it because these men think they are entitled to take sex because they see women as objects,cock recepticles..some men get women drunk or give them mickeys to get women pregnant,..all that sperm leads to unwanted pregnancy and abortion.



If women are forced to give birth,than it is logical and FAIR that men must at a woman's request become STERILE,and that way the Christians can be sure no fetuses die!

What do you think ,if the right wingers force women to give birth and be we can force VASECTOMY on men!After all sperm is needed to make a fetus! So lets eliminate UNWANTED SPERM!
And because it's the men that can't seem to keep their dicks in their pants and it is men have this domination and objectification of women issue.Lets curb their fertility to save the babies!

Just a thought.

[MrSlayer]

1. As absurd as banning abortion is, this is a hundred times as absurd.

Funny though. Your extreme characterization of men as merely sex-starved mindless barbarians is quite amusing.

[undergroundpanther]

5. Well

Why do men portray women as seductive sluts who obesss on sex and make silly movies about it than?
Tell me who is the sex starved gender..( men the biggest consumers of porn and sex workers)and why do MEN want to force women to give birth?
And isn't it true both sperm and egg are needed to make a fetus?
Wouldn't it be FAIR to eliminate the unwanted sperm if men want to force women into unwanted pregnancy??
A vasectomy just spares women the unwanted pregnancy, male sexual function is the same with a vasectomy..So what are you whining about at least YOU ain't in danger of a forced pregnancy.



When I do public talks on pornography and the feminist critique of the commercial sex industry, I describe -- but do not show -- these kinds of videos. I explain the other conventions of the industry, such as “double penetration,” the common practice in which a woman is penetrated by two men’s penises, vaginally and anally, at the same time, and in some of those scenes the woman also performs oral sex on a third man at the same time. I explain that virtually every sex scene ends with a man or men ejaculating onto a woman, most often in the face, what the industry calls a “facial.”

Many of the people in the audience, particularly the women, tell me that they find it difficult to hear about these things, even when the acts are described with the kind of clinical detachment I try to maintain. One woman approached me after a lecture and said, “What you said was important, but I wish I hadn’t been here. I wish I didn’t know what you told us. I wish I could forget it.”

For many of the women who feel so defeated by knowing, the most distressing part doesn’t seem to be simply learning what is in the videos but knowing that men gain pleasure from what is in the videos. They ask me, over and over, “Why do men like this? What do you guys get from this?” They want to know why the mostly male consumers spend an estimated $10 billion a year on pornography in the United States
and $56 billion around the world.

It is an important question with, no doubt, complex answers. What does is say about our society when men will take home a tape like “Blow Bang #4” and watch it, and masturbate to it. What does it say about our society’s conception of sexuality and masculinity that large numbers of men can find pleasure in watching a young woman gag while a penis is pushed into her throat followed by six men ejaculating on her face and in her mouth? Or that other men, who might find that scene too extreme, prefer to watch one man have sex with a woman that begins with tender words and endswith “Do you want me to fuck you in the ass?” and ejaculation on her breasts? What does it say that such a video, made for men to masturbate to, is considered classy and upscale?

[beam me up scottie]

9. Blast those sacred cows!

Oh, wait.

We can't do that, what will everyone THINK?

[undergroundpanther]

14. Like I give two shits

what offended bullies think?

[MrSlayer]

30. LOL! That is quite extreme.

You seem to have confused what all men are into with what some men are into. You go right ahead though and believe what you want, apparently your mind is all made up about men.

Not every guy is into rape fantasy or triple penetration or bukake. Not even most. To act as if that is true is patently ridiculous.

[undergroundpanther]

33. Well women are not making moves like this

To get off to. Wonder why?

I wonder does it make some men ashamed to see how porn has dominated thier perception of women? Especially in the context of a forced vasectomy to save fetuses?

Why do men like these kinds of movies?

(I know you are a cool guy,I got no problem with you..)

[MrSlayer]

45. Well, for some, it is absolutely a power thing.

But I've found that most guys who are heavily into porn and strip clubs were losers who aren't getting any anyway. They are generally angry at women because of that fact. And, yes, because of that they will get off on the most degrading porn vids as a way of feeling powerful. Quite frankly I don't think it helps these guys because reality always sets in, they have no power, they are impotent and it makes them angrier.

I do think that porn can certainly shape the way men think of women and it's almost never in a positive way. And I agree that all the gang bang, bukake, DP shit serves no real purpose other than to cater to the sickos. The idea of a woman as an object or fuck toy is an adolescent mindset. Anyone who thinks that way as an adult has a serious problem.

I think your vasectomy legislation idea is a clever way to point out how important the abortion issue is. The outrage of the men in the country over such a proposition itself would be hilarious and would really bring the point home. I just could never see something like that ever brought up seriously in Congress or a state House.

[CTLawGuy]

85. and every racist has a black friend

(I know you are a cool guy,I got no problem with you..)

[CTLawGuy]

84. "and why do MEN want to force women to give birth?"

I dunno, ask:

Ann Coulter,
Phyllis Schlafly,
Laura Bush,
Marsha Blackburn (TN-07)
Barbara Cubin (WY-AL)
Jo Ann Davis (VA-1)
Elizabeth Dole (NC-Sen)
Jo Ann Emerson (MO-8)
Virginia Foxx (NC-5)
Katherine Harris (FL-13)
Melissa Hart (PA-4)
Cathy McMorris (WA-5)
Candice Miller (MI-10)
Marilyn Musgrave (CO-4)
Sue Myrick (NC-9)
Anne Northup (KY-3)
Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (FL-18)
Jean Schmidt (OH - 2)

Perhaps they can tell you :eyes:

[readmoreoften]

72. Controlling men's bodies is 100 times as absurd as controlling women's? -

[bloom]

77. That is "quite amusing"

:rofl: :cry:

[Katherine Brengle]

95. Agreed--God forbid someone restrict the choices available to men!--

It's unthinkable--absolutely insane--how could you ever even suggest such a thing???

I hate this s**t--I am really tired of the world and all of this pre-exisiting, archaic, bulls**t theory of gender roles and traditional family values and male power v. female domination...

It's exhausting. Why can't we just all treat each other like human beings? Is it really that hard???

[beam me up scottie]

2. Who said

"I'm ready to let men make laws about abortion as soon as they let us make laws about ejaculations." ?

Your idea is the only way to assure no innocent fetuses pay for our sins.

[peacebird]

4. "if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament"

[undergroundpanther]

7. There will be no equality for women

Until we demand it and accept no substitutes for equality.
Make men suffer for thier domination.

[Behind the Aegis]

10. I understand you anger....

...you must also realize that there are quite a few men that support equality for women. Making men suffer for their domination is as bad as the domination of women. We should never replace one form of discrimination for another. We should seek balance, not revenge, though the feelings may be understandable.

[undergroundpanther]

13. Well than attack your fellow men

Speak out against the domination of women by men,speak out when you hear locker room banter and call it sickening. Dare to campaign against porn and forced birth. Put yourself on the line.Gather more men with you and march beside us fearlessly as feminist men who reject masculinity as a form of social inequality.Speak up for feminists on DU when the bullies shout them down.Prove you are worthy of your spermatozoon's!

[beam me up scottie]

16. He does.

We could ask for no better ally or friend.

Unfortunately, the bullies target him as often as us.

More often, actually.

How fucking sad is that?

[undergroundpanther]

20. Sad as sad

But I am glad he stands up! Wecome..Purrr!

Anyways I posted this because I wanted men to see how forced pregnancy effects women in a way that was PERSONAL.
It's a shoe on the other foot excercize.To teach men who have never had to be subjugated about how social negation of bodily integrity feels.

[beam me up scottie]

24. I think you intimidated them.

Seriously.

Nobody wants to argue with crazy people, LOL!

We've just got to remember to let the inner crazy out more often, stir things up a little.


Thanks, Undergroundpanther.

You rock.

[undergroundpanther]

26. BwahahaharrroWrrrOwrr!

Never surrender to the game of submission. They'll call you crazy,but they do it out of FEAR!

[Behind the Aegis]

32. I don't think you are crazy, I think you are angry.

You are angry that others, mostly men, can decide what is "good and appropriate' for your body! It makes me angry when people tell me I can change to straight...as if I'd want to. I am happy being me.

However, sometimes anger turns people off. But, I will say this....sometimes, you get converts that way!!! When they see posters such as yourself, expressing the anger they have, but don't post, you build up a base. I do know of what I speak in this regard! :)

Sometimes, using extremes in reverse drives your point home. With me, not so much on this issue because I am already on your side. How can we be a nation of equals when that is clearly not the case?

[undergroundpanther]

36. We have to struggle

Take it on all sides. Fight and reason, but do what works,get to the heart of it which is social domination, never settle for second class citizenship.BTW I am transgender. And Bi.So I get peoples hackles up just because I don't fit a category.

[Behind the Aegis]

40. I am with you in the struggle...and more than just this one.

I battle on multiple angles. I always have.

You are transgendered and bi...you must never be lacking of a date. :) (kidding)

I can honestly tell you, I had to come to terms with both of those issues, but, thankfully, I had good teachers. As my mom says, "normal? what is normal? Even if you could define it, it is nothing more than average. Who wants to be average?" Any wonder I am a feminist? ")

[Behind the Aegis]

17. I do speak out.

I have often called out people on misogynistic bullshit, not just about choice issues. Of course, you have to realize that my voice is often shouted down because I am gay. It doesn't stop me from fighting misogyny overall, and in my community (gay men can be pretty bad).

I have spoken up on DU a number of times about this issue (until I got sidetracked with my own battles). I am not ashamed of any of my identities, including my feminist one.

[undergroundpanther]

23. Thanks!

Proud to call you ally. I wrote this because I think men need to feel what it feels like when society denies you bodily autonomy.They need to feel the threat..The idea of forced vasectomy ...scary ain't it?
Well forced pregnancy is scary for women,it's INSANE..it can kill a woman.
A vasectomy just eliminates male fertility.
Think about it.

Forced vasectomy is as insane as pro life positions are yet you will not die from a vasectomy.Women can die from pregnancy complications.
The biggest difference no laws are being passed to force you to get a vasectomy against your will...yet..

[Behind the Aegis]

27. I really do understand you anger.

(I would have posted sooner, but I couldn't access DU).

I am gay, so clipping my tubes...no big loss, because if I got my partner preggers...WE'D BE RICH!

As a small comfort, my brother, who is straight, single, and will be a doctor in May (....hint...hint) he has said that if abortion becomes illegal, he will end up in jail, because there is no way he will not allow a woman to have an unwanted pregnancy. He's a good little liberal! He also spent a month in Kenya working with AIDS patients.

I agree that the idea of no abortions is insane. I see it as a form of slavery (women are 'property,' or at least their uteruses). However, we don't fight slavery, with slavery. Your signature line says it all. Forced sterilizations in men is no different than those in places like China (for women). Choice is choice, and should remain so.

[undergroundpanther]

31. But scaring the shit

Out of these bullies and making them feel vunerable ..it can go a long way in driving the point home about the need for human equality.Sometimes when reason doesen't work that kind of emotional thing that grabs them in the nuts will.
Oh on a side thought maybe your doctor freind could teach others and maybe form a network of trained people to help women. Not doctors(harder to trace) but trained well..Just an idea.

[Behind the Aegis]

35. I agree that scaring people can wake some up...

...however, it can also produce backlash.

Your posts haven't been lost on me. I can understand the anger. If I were a woman, I would probably be even more angry.

The doctor friend is my little brother. Funny thing is, he said what you suggested...creating a network of trained persons (not having to be doctors, more like trained mid-wifes) when the Alito hearings were happening.

As angry as you are, and I am angry and saddened by the happenings in SD and now, Mississippi, we must keep our wits about us! We know what the battle will be. We must don our armor and prepare. We must stand "behind the Aegis" and fight!

[undergroundpanther]

39. The Aeigis of Sekhmet

War was waged under Sekhmet’s aegis. She inspired both reverence and fear. She is usually portrayed as a woman with exposed breasts and the head of a lioness; but on occasion she has an ithyphallic male body.”

[Behind the Aegis]

41. Very cool!

The Aegis I carry is from Athena, she who is wisdom, justice, and battle. No one can look into the Aegis and lie, for it exposes them for what they really are. That is why I chose the name. The Aegis knows truth and it knows lies; it repels lies.

[beam me up scottie]

15. Does it make them think?

I'd hate to believe we need to advocate such measures in order for some men on the left to notice the inherent bias in society.

But then, some do seem to be able to quote Dworkin verbatim, while remaining completely oblivious to the opinions of the less radical amongst us.


Perhaps there's something to that method.

[undergroundpanther]

21. Yep!

Hammer it!
Make them feel VUNERABLE! Afraid for thier own bodily integrity.

[bloom]

63. 70% of DUers (responding to the poll) think Larry Flynt

is a "Great American"

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x544086


So that is a sad commentary for "leftist" men (and presumable some women).


For an opposing view - www.hustlingtheleft.com (warning - there are images "reprinted from... Hustler as an act of political protest")

[Katherine Brengle]

97. That's bc most people only know him as a crusader for the 1st Amendment--

and don't consider the industry that he comes from and its effect on society.

It's like Hillary Clinton being ahead in all of the early 2008 polls--it's all name recognition, no substance.

[Blue_Tires]

120. exactly n/t

[peacebird]

3. like the idea about declaring masturbation a crime for "killing" sperm

this is a non-starter

they are interested in control of women, not fairness

rich girls parents will see to it that they get clean, safe abortions.

poor women will again have coathangers.

struggling middleclass women will likely have more babies than they can support.

too many young people today are disengaged politically, too many people of all ages are disengaged politically.

it is beyond sad, because democracy is not a spectator sport, and yet due to laziness and self-absorption of the masses we are losing ours.

[undergroundpanther]

6. Then we women

Need to grab these assholes where it hurts most in the entitlement and ego.No more compassion or tolerance for control freaks.

[beam me up scottie]

8. You said it.

The brainless little twits who decided it was too much of an effort to vote in the last two elections are as much to blame as the fundies, afaic.

After everything the women who came before gave up to win our rights, they throw them away without a second thought.

[undergroundpanther]

11. If they see us as a bunch of feminazis

Than so be it. These whining men have not been treated like objects and raised to cater to us. Demand equality,and nothing less if the men don't like it and want to dominate and disregard, make them wish they were never born than.I don't care,if someone is a bully and undermining social equality they need to be put in thier place in any way that WORKS.I don't care if it's upsetting or makes me look bad,I just don't care about the opinion of a dominator..

[beam me up scottie]

19. Yeah, but we need to light a fire under the twits' collective asses, too.

Stupid silly women hurt us as much as the bullies.

I will NEVER forget the interviews of young women before the last election.

Goddamnit, we are only as strong as our weakest link and I can at least UNDERSTAND why men would want to keep us in our places.

[undergroundpanther]

25. Then hate them for thier betrayal

And let them know. You can CHOOSE who you care about you know. That is the first step to claiming equality.
Hate them in public hate them to thier faces. If Roe VS Wade is overturned they will weep alone.

[mongo]

91. DEATH TO ALL EXTREMISTS

Your rhetoric is so over the top you are a caricature of yourself. Everything that the right holds up when they want to paint the left as fools.

[Katherine Brengle]

99. This kind of reaction to radical feminism is exactly the problem--

The left (male and female alike) likes to distance itself from feminists, because the prevailing social view of the past 20 years has been that feminism is outdated, that feminists hate men, all feminists are lesbians, blah, blah, blah.

Women who call themselves feminists are just human beings (who happen to be female) who are sick of living in a society where they are constantly being compared to men (apparently the standard upon which all other human life is based, and therefore judged), constantly running into walls when competing with men (especially in the workplace), and where they are expected to be a certain type of person (which they may or may not naturally be, such as wanting children, wanting to be married, wanting to be a stay at home mother, etc, etc, etc).

The blacklist of radical feminisism by the left is just another example of how "political correctness" is taking over our country for the worst.

[mongo]

104. I don't have a problem with feminism

and I agree with and have many feminist friends right here on DU.

But the same as not supporting vandalism of a SUV dealership doesn't make me anti-enviromnental, and not supporting bombing of a lab that does testing on animals doesn't make me against the humane treatment of animals.

Are you saying that forced sterilization of men is a viable idea that should be supported by "mainstream " feminism and the left in general?

[CTLawGuy]

112. I agree

some radical feminists want to make this a male v. female issue when it is not. I'm not exactly sure why. I guess they need an identifiable enemy.

Also forced sterilization of men is not entirely analogous. People who are against abortion truly believe that a zygote is a human being with independent rights. There's nothing analogous to that in the sterilization context. The forced sterilization of men is not designed to protect the purported rights of a third party.


As stupid as the idea that a clump of cells is a human is, its what the fundies, male and female, believe.

[Katherine Brengle]

113. I never said it should be--but neither should forcing women to give birth-

This is the problem--there is no logic in any of this. Allowing men free reign over their bodies and what to do with them is normal, but allowing women the same rights is some kind of crime against nature.

(I'm not saying that you are a proponent of this, just laying the situation in general on the table.)

I don't think that it is extreme to use these kinds of comparisons to wake people up to the hypocrisy of our culture. It would be extreme to sterilize men forcibly--just as it is extreme to force women to reproduce when they do not want to.

[undergroundpanther]

18. Women who

are deluded by domineering men are basically useless.Maybe it's because of the way they were raised, or they are beaten down until they identify with the abusers and see themselves as lessers. The stepford wife has internalized the "self induced torture" patriarchial society dumps on women and they see themselves as servants.
It's sad but they choose to stand by thier men and cannot be trusted to act in thier own interests because of the damage they suffered..We need to "throw away" the women who would throw thier own and our rights away to please men.Sad but that is what you gotta do..I fear the luxury of negotiation and trying to help these lost causes see the danger in thier subserviant additude is over.
They will be hurt bad one day and end up in a crisis shelter maybe than they will get away from the male control enough to see out of thier sad conditioning. Not all women will be willing to defy thier "masters".

[beam me up scottie]

22. Yep, time to stand with us, sister.

Or get out of the way.

Things won't go as well for the Amerikkkan Taliban as they did before Roe.

There's a whole lot of us who grew up with freedom, and we're not willing to give it up.

We don't have to.

[undergroundpanther]

29. And dammit

This time we will take more power away from the dominators and we will tear them apart until they KNOW we stand as thier equals, all of us stand as EQUAL HUMAN BEINGS regardless of race, gender ect..NO MORE SOCIAL DOMINATION,NO MORE ENFORCED SUBMISSION.
The choice to bully a person,break them down and make them an inferior to oneself is a choice made by bullies.An act of VOLUNTARY VIOLENCE.We must NEVER let the bully forget THEY chose to dominate US first and because of this abuse they will PAY the PRICE for thier treachery against my humanity and millions of others HUMAN DIGNITY as well!They will lose power until all HAVE equal POWER.

[beam me up scottie]

12. You must be quite formidable, UP.

Not so much as a peep.

I bow to your superior experience and wisdom in these matters.

Lesson well learned.

[The Straight Story]

28. This is The Wife of SS...sorry Login info is at home

We are in Chicago at the moment and away from home, so my password is in my email that I do not have access to. My husband and I had a very emotional experience with this very subject. I personally had an abortion when I was 18. It was haunting to me. Please don't assume that I am uber christian or uber anti abortion. It was neither. It was a personal choice that had many layers of consequence and emotions. My husbands niece came to us in September and asked for the money to have an abortion at 5 1/2 months gestation. She viewed the the whole thing as a "leech" that was a "parasite" to her body. She came alone to us without the boyfriend involved and he wasn't/hasn't been engaged in any way with us per say on a social or friendship level. Not by much anyway. At this point it was 600 dollars...plus the fee for the hotel room to stay in the city so she could heal from the surgery. A total of maybe 800? They are both in their late 20's. We aren't talking about teenagers without a way to deal. It was like talking to someone about ordering a pizza. It was surreal. His reaction was a one time public opinion of "wow...I didn't think this could happen". It disgusted me. Where was he? Why was it her burden to carry to us and everyone else that she spoke to while he hid in her room upstairs and told her to find a solution because he couldn't face it. It was a total lack of compassion for her and the situation that he had a part of creating. The pain she felt was hard, without question. I told her no. I couldn't give her the money. Not because of the money..but because of my own feelings from what I myself went through. I explained that to her. We had a very long conversation. She still hasn't forgiven us. He still hasn't spoken to us, and she is still convinced that it was a conspiracy against her to have a child. It hurt all of us. I respect her choice, but realize that two people created the situation. Not one woman. Just my two cents. Is this a fem rant? No...Its a view of the whole situation. It is a womans body..but women do not get themselves pregnant. It takes two to tango. When we start having more open conversations about women, men and abortion...I think womens rights will change extensively. :)

[undergroundpanther]

34. I understand YOU were traumatized

But your daughter is not YOU. Her life is not your life.
You may be very upset emotional and feeling your own past more
than relating to your daughter as the individual she is.
Please do not be offended. You made your choice based in your past.
Your past may not apply to her.
She may not have the same experince as you.
She has every right to not want the baby and to hate it because it is unwanted.She will have to deal with it and the fact she does not want it,not you.I am sorry you were traumatized. But you IMO are acting out of your own needs,and disregarding her situation.Confusing your experinces with her needs and failing to help.

When a baby is born unwanted it scars the child.
They carry the rejection all thier life.
IMO abortion can be an act of mercy.
All children should be wanted by thier own parents.
Do the right thing if you can give your daughter what she needs.
Even if you are afraid.Respect her right to control her own body.

[The Straight Story]

38. I Understand This

but first and foremost...she was NOT my daughter. She was my husbands niece. Please (and I ask kindly) read what I posted. My point was and I will clarify here...she came alone to us. He should of come as well. And he should have taken just as much responsibility for the pregnancy as she did. Period. Do I think all men or women are like this? No ma'am..I do not. I was honest with her. She was honest with me. She should of had more support. I supported her decision because its her life and yes, her body!With that being said I DO NOT have to give her money. She is a woman of 27 years old. And I certainly did and still do talk openly with her about all aspects of abortion. Good and bad. She is old enough to make her own decisions. She has made her own decisions. As I have. Thanks.

[Behind the Aegis]

43. Totally off-topic...in a way.

I remember this story. You battled with multiple issues, including your dad's opinion (if this is the same story). I was really impressed with your disclosure and your feelings.

so... :applause: even if a tad late.

[The Straight Story]

50. Its the same story

My husband posted it ( I am highjacking his screen name right now because I dont have access to mine). He did great through it all. I will point him to this thread so he can see your support! :)

[Behind the Aegis]

51. Do that...

...cuz I have a big :thumbsup: for him on that situation!

[The Straight Story]

53. I Will My Friend!

:yourock: :yourock: :yourock:

[undergroundpanther]

44. Cool

Sorry when I wrote I kept typing daughter,
yes I knew she was your niece.I am airheaded when I type sometimes.

And I agree he should have been there with her.
And yes you do not have to give her any money.

You said you didn't give her money because" Not because of the money..but because of my own feelings from what I myself went through."



But my point was not to make you feel guilty.. I was asking you if were you thinking more of your issues with your abortion or empathizing with her situation as she was in it,not you this time.

And likewise you know your niece does not owe you her forgiveness for your choices to not help her,regardless of what anger and resentment her idiot boyfreind deserves..nor is she required to speak to you again,or trust you again as long as you live, or see things your way ever. She has every right to feel you were forcing her to give birth.That is how she experinced the incident with you. I hope she got what she needed.Regardless of the obstacles before her.

[The Straight Story]

49. The Issue

was never if she had or didn't have a child of her own. She had to make that decision for herself. I made mine and I will deal with it. She doesn't feel that she should have to have a child. I dont have to make sure she doesnt. Thats fine with me. At her age she knows as a womens liberation activist where/how pregnancies occur. She also knows she doesn't have to put up with not being able to handle (in terms of her own financial responsibility) her own well being. For whatever reason. Although we came to a crossroads about this on some levels, it wasn't a level of one women being better or lower than another. We came to the table with a shared experience with two different opinions about the fallout afterwords. Does that mean that one opinion should be better or stronger? No...It means that I have a voice as does she. We can agree to disagree. But I certainly don't have to agree with her bitterness to feel that I have helped her. If she didn't want a child there several things to take into consideration. We dont need to ask for forgiveness from each other. Its beyond that.

a.) She has the right to birth control
b.) She has the legal right to an abortion. That doesn't mean she has the right to expect or demand that any/all agree or have no opinions about it that may conflict with hers or mine for that matter.
c.) She is a woman that can and has failed to take the most important step of liberation in my opinion. Self worth and the right to embrace who she is without having to be supported by others because its easy. And I am not talking about someone agreeing with you. Thats what womens rights are about. She is only a victim in this case (not all) because she has chosen to allow others to support her. Her grandfather has given her everything she has ever wanted without reason on a 8 bucks an hour salary. He is 70 years old. She is still living with him. She still makes her grocery lists out to him so he can buy her (and her boyfriend) what they need in life. She should of at the age of 27 been able to make a stand on some level without blaming others for the situation she/he was in. She is not fighting for choice..she is fighting to NOT MAKE CHOICES IN ANY SITUATION. Does that make sense? There are many avenues of education and prevention that are FREE and open to the public. The fact that she isn't independent is no more my fault than it is the neighbor down the street. The wisdom and the strength is there. She just needs to tap into it. And I am still trying to help her with that.

[MaraJade]

121. What you are sadly forgetting is that

Ninety percent of the time, the MAN decides that he wants noting to do with the pregnancy.
No amount of involving the sperm donor will help. The simple fact is that there is nothing
to stop a man from completely abdicating responsibility, so why should he even care. He'll
suffer no consequences.

You are simply dreaming if you believe anything else. The whole system is stacked against
the woman. So, in my opinion, the woman's feelings carry far more weight and importance.

It is true that it takes two to cause pregnancy, but most of the time, the man wants
no responsibility. And he can and often does get away with this. No child support or
any type of emotional support is given. And your failure to provide funding will change
absolutely nothing. In fact, a child will no doubt suffer. The fact is that the vast
majority of kids in poverty today and for whom taxpayers are shelling out billions are
kids who have been abandoned by their fathers. If the fathers were responsible, virtually no
children would be in poverty.

Until we can find some legal way to "stick" men with the pregnancy to the same extent
as the woman is "stuck" with it, nothing at all will change. Dialog and talking is NOT
the answer. We need to find some way to make real emotional and legal and financial
consequences of unwanted pregnancy stick to the men involved in all of this. Until that day,
the WOMAN should be the one who makes ALL of the decisions. After all, SHE is the one who
will be stuck with the consequences of unwanted pregnancy.

[Stockholm]

37. Abortion should be rare, legal and safe

and solely a womans decision.

If you disagree take a look at these "jewels" displaying a de facto pro-rapist stance. Way to go Freeperinos. :puke:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1587472/posts

[NMMNG]

42. A little extreme on the face of it

But no more so than forcing women to be breeders against their will, particularly for the offspring of rapists and molestors. If men want to control womens' reproductive organs, maybe they'd like a taste of their own medicine, eh?




I swear, these obscene anti-choice laws that are spreading make me want to go get my tubes tied so I can give all of the anti-choicers a big F*CK YOU!

[undergroundpanther]

47. Yep

I think tube ties and hysterectomies should be on demand.
I went through alot of shit to get my tubes tied and later I got my hysterectomy ,but only after I was anemic from blood loss!
Male GYNS want to force women to breed.

[NMMNG]

48. It's all about control

Ever notice that the anti-choicers are also anti-birth control? They claim they are just "pro life" but they really are all about controlling women via their wombs. They want to make sure women have no ability to control if and when they get pregnant. Sure they preach abstinence, but they also harp on the "sanctity of marriage" and pressure women to get married. Then once they do, it becomes a woman's sacred duty to service her husband. How then is she supposed to avoid pregnancy?

Stupid effed up BS. :grr:

[foreverdem]

55. And no male consent

When I had my hysterectomy for medical reasons, my husband had to sign a consent and authorization for me to have it done! He was as pissed about it as I was. I could not fathom that I would not be able to have the surgery I needed if he did not consent to it. I'll bet there would be no such consent form if I was having surgery of any other kind. But when it comes to my uterus, everyone must have a say.

[mongo]

93. That is a travesty of justice

You have an absolute right to your own uterus.

[bowens43]

46. Wow. That's pretty ridiculous.

[TomClash]

52. A better idea

is for young women to fight for their rights in the 50 states.

[NMMNG]

54. They are fighting

And they are beginning to lose out to the Christo-fascist control-freaks. Two states have banned it outright, and many more have restrictions that severely hamper womens' rights. How much more can we tolerate?

[TomClash]

62. None

but I don't think enough younger women give a damn.

[bloom]

66. A better idea

is for everyone to consider it their issue - men and women - young and old.

[bleedingheart]

56. That or a DNA registry so that men who father children are forced

to pay or imprisioned for not feeding/clothing and caring for that lovely baby the holy rollers so wanted to be born...

[TomClash]

71. Hehe

Great stuff.

[MaraJade]

122. An excellent idea! IF abortions are outlawed, then

when boys turn 12 or 13, they should be forced to deposit DNA with a central registry of
some sort that could be used to positively identify them in the event of an unwanted pregnancy.
The "man" involved could then be forced into financial liability for the child. All sorts of
benefits (including credit) could then be taken away from him for failure to support the child.

In the event that a "man" had more children than he could provide for financially, he could be
forced into sterilization. Taxpayers would save billions of dollars. Even more important, men
would realize that they couldn't escape responsibility for the consequences of sex.

Radical? Absolutely! But it would go far toward "sticking" men with unwanted pregancies in the
same way that women are "stuck" with them if abortions are illegal.

[zbdent]

57. Abortion outlawed

then the Right Wingers would complain about all the people on welfare having welfare babies all over the place . . . but watch their teenage daughter go on a trip to Europe . . .

[90-percent]

58. last month's Cosmo mag

Had some article that stated that married men that consume porno stop sleeping with their wives!

they prefer porno to actual marital sex!

Wow!

How's that most demeaning of women pornographer MAX HARDCORE doing with his legal persecution by the government?

Apparently the government doesn't like the way Max demeans women!

-85% jimmy

PS - based on my personal research, there is a segment of the female population that have fantasies about gangbangs, consume porno, and would enjoy a 6 man facial. Not that it's a signifigant number, just that such women are out there.

Plus there's porno out there that is pretty demeaning to men, too.

[mongo]

94. Cosmo being the height of scientific info it is

If a man is not sleeping with his wife, the reasons go much deeper than his use of adult materials. Porn can sometimes be a symptom, but it is not the cause.

And it's not Max Hardcore that is in trouble right now, It's Rob Black of Extreme Associates.

[TahitiNut]

59. "men that can't seem to keep their dicks in their pants"

It's really amazing to me that as soon as a man's dick comes out of his pants that some woman has an unwanted pregnancy. I guess it's like a magic wand, huh?

:eyes:


As a pro-choice advocate all my life, I find it fascinating that voting age women outnumber voting age men by approximately 7 million in this country.

:shrug:

[LincolnMcGrath]

60. Yay! Another ALL MEN ARE RAPISTS thread on DU

:woohoo:

[Scout]

64. Yay! another whiney poster with no reading comprehension on DU

The OP specifically said, several times, "some men."

[LincolnMcGrath]

87. Make no mistake about it,

your calling me a whiner definitely puts you

way up there on the high road. lol

In fairness it is one of the milder names I have been called here at times.

You

might

want

to

have

someone

read a few replies back to you

:eyes:

[Katherine Brengle]

114. Way to contribute absolutely nothing to the conversation. n/t

:puke:

[MaraJade]

123. No one said all men are rapists. . .

What was said is that some men want sex without consequences, and there is simply no such
thing. "Men" need to grow up. Sex does have all sorts of consequences, and if one is not
willing to accept that and deal with all consequences in a mature way, then one should NOT HAVE
SEX.

Irresponsible people, (Men and Women) should keep their hands (and everything else) to themselves.

[Solly Mack]

61. Charge them with murder,1 count per sperm, for every sperm that isn't

allowed to reach it's full potential and become a human. By denying a sperm a chance to mingle with an egg, men are aborting a potential life. As long as you try to give your sperm life, then you're OK.

We can use towels, sheets, socks, hankies, undies - just wherever human male sperm can be found - as evidence that an emission did take place.


And for every single sperm ejaculated outside of a vagina, charge them with that many murders.

and make it a capital offense.

and air the executions live on TV.

and NO exceptions for nocturnal emissions or premature ejaculation

age of accountability begins with the very first emission - after that freebie - you are to be held accountable for each and every emission. Regardless of age.

If it is found that you are knowingly having intercourse with a woman that can not conceive, you will be charged with murder and fraud. 1 count of each per sperm.

I mean, if it's really about "life" - then those sperms need protection from men who respect life so little that they put their poor defenseless and helpless sperms just any old where.

It must stop!
Save the sperms!
It's not a choice - it's a sperm!
It's not a blob of sticky, often times salty, cells - it's a life!
Masturbation denies a beating heart!
Oral sex and Anal sex are both just birth control - that deny sperm their chance at life!

[meisje]

65. You should see a therapist A.S.A.P.!

[VelmaD]

98. Wow...implying that angry women are crazy...

that's a new one. NOT.

[Katherine Brengle]

115. What prompted this response? n/t

[MaraJade]

124. Just goes to show that some women are self-hating. . .

Why don't you think that woman deserve a say in what happens to their lives and
their bodies? Why do you think that this woman needs therapy?

I think that any woman who advocates the continued sanction against women and FOR
the irresponsible actions of the men who cause unwanted pregancy is the one who
needs therapy.

[bloom]

67. There is actually no reason

why this couldn't be done.

Sperm could be saved for when the time was right for creating children. It would be the most effective birth control. There are a lot of pluses.

It definitely makes sense to have someone propose a bill for any state that writes an anti-abortion bill.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Crandor]

69. not true...

The majority of Americans are opposed to making abortion totally illegal, especially when rape/incest is involved.

What is a losing issue, however, is trying to get porn banned. I always thought this was just a right-wing myth - "liberals want to take away your porn", just like the other myths "liberals want to ban the bible" and such. Apparently, I was sadly mistaken. What I always assumed to be a straw-man actually has a basis in reality, even if it is just a fringe. Some people need to grow out of the 6-year-old "sex is icky" mentality.

[bloom]

73. "Some people need to grow out of the 6-year-old "sex is icky" mentality."

Is that what you would say to Robert Jensen if you met him?

Why don't you at least one of his articles and get back about that.

http://uts.cc.utexas.edu/%7Erjensen/freelance/genderarticles.htm


P.S. I don't know what/who you were responding to - I'm just saying - maybe you don't know that much about the subject - by the sounds of things.

[Crandor]

78. Yes, it is

If Robert Jensen doesn't like porn, that's fine. He doesn't have to watch it if he doesn't want to. But forcing your own beliefs on other people is something liberals should oppose, not support. It would probably work about as well as alcohol prohobition did, anyway.

[mongo]

88. Well Bloom

you don't know much about the subject either.

First, porn isn't one concrete thing, like an object or even an idea, it is a multi-faceted genre with many different styles.

2nd, there has never been any conclusive study showing any harm porn does -- but oh, I KNOW you KNOW it does harm in your heart, right? That is the same excuse men used to use to burn witches.

[bloom]

90. I admit, Mongo - that you must know quite a bit about the subject

But have you really read all of this (I haven't either - I'm just saying...)


Abel, Gene; Barlow, David; Blanchard, Edward; Guild, Donald. (1977). The components of rapists' sexual arousal. Archives of General Psychiatry, 34, 895-903.

Abel, Gene; Mittleman, Mary; Becker, Judith. (1985). Sexual offenders: Results of assessment and recommendations for treatment. In Mark Ben-Aron, Stephen Hucker, and Christopher Webster (Eds.), Clinical Criminology: The Assessment and Treatment of Criminal Behavior (pp. 191-205). Toronto: Clarke Institute of Psychiatry, University of Toronto.

Attorney General's Commission on Pornography: Final Report. (1986). (Vols. I-II). Washington, DC: U.S. Department of Justice.

Baron, Larry; Straus, Murray. (1984). Sexual stratification, pornography, and rape in the United States. In Neil Malamuth and Edward Donnerstein (Eds.), Pornography and Sexual Aggression (pp. 185-209). New York: Academic Press.

Bart, Pauline; Jozsa, Margaret. (1980). Dirty books, dirty film, and dirty data. In Laura Lederer (Ed.), Take Back the Night: Women on Pornography (pp. 204-217). New York: William Morrow.

Bem, Sandra. (1991). Gender schema theory: A cognitive account of sex typing. Psychological Review, 88, 354-354.

Beneke, Timothy. (1982). Men on Rape. New York: St. Martin's Press.

Bogdanovich, Peter. (1984). The Killing of the Unicorn: Dorothy Stratten 1960-1980. New York: William Morrow.

Briere, John; Corne, Shawn; Runtz, Marsha; Malamuth, Neil. (1984). The rape arousal inventory: Predicting actual and potential sexual aggression in a university population. Paper presented at the American Psychological Association Meeting, Toronto.

Briere, John; Malamuth, Neil. (1983). Self-reported likelihood of sexually aggressive behavior: Attitudinal versus sexual explanations. Journal of Research in Personality, 17, 315-323.

Briere, John; Malamuth, Neil, and Check, James. (1985). Sexuality and rape-supportive beliefs. International Journal of Women's Studies, 8, 398-403.

Brownmiller, Susan. (1975). Against Our Will: Men, Women, and Rape. New York: Simon and Schuster.

Bryant, Jennings. (1985). Unpublished transcripts of testimony to the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography Hearings, Houston, TX, pp. 128-157.

Burt, Martha. (1980). Cultural myths and supports for rape. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 38(2), 217-230.

Check, James. (1985). The effects of violent and non-violent pornography. Ottawa: Department of Justice, Canada.

Check, James; Guloein, Ted. (1989). Reported proclivity for coercive sex following repeated exposure to sexually violent pornogaphy, non-violent dehumanizing pornography, and erotica. In Dolf Zillman and Jennings Bryant (Eds.), Pornography: Recent Research, Interpretations, and Policy Considerations (pp. 159-184). Hillside, NJ: Lawrence Erlbaum.

Check, James; Malamuth, Neil. An empirical assessment of some feminist hypotheses abut rape. International Journal of Women's Studies, 8, 414-423.

Check, James; Maxwell, Kristin. (1992, June). Children's consumption of pornography and their attitudes regarding sexual violence. Paper presented at the Canadian Psychological Association Meetings, Quebec.

Cline, Victor (Ed.). (1974). Where Do You Draw the Line? Provo, UT: Brigham Young University Press.

Diamond, Irene. (1980). Pornography and repression. In Laura Lederer (Ed.), Take Back the Night: Women on Pornography (pp. 187-203). New York: William Morrow.

Dietz, Park; Evans, Barbara. (1982). Pornographic imagery and prevalence of paraphilia. American Journal of Psychiatry, 139, 1493-1495.

Donnerstein, Edward. (1983). Unpublished transcript of testimony to the Public Hearings on Ordinances to Add Pornography as Discrimination against Women. Committee on Government Operations, City Council, Minneapolis, MN pp. 4-12.

Donnerstein, Edward. (1985). Unpublished transcipt of testimony to the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography Hearings, Houston, TX, pp. 5-33.

Donnerstein, Edward; Linz, Daniel. (1985). Presentation paper to the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography, Houston, TX, pp. 5-33.

Donnerstein, Edward; Linz, Daniel; Penrod, Steven. (1987). The Question of Pornography: Research Findings and Policy Implications. New York: Free Press.

Einsiedel, Edna. (1986). Social Science Report. Paper prepared for the Attorney's General's Commission on Pornography, Department of Justice, Washington, DC.

Everywoman. (1988). Pornography and Sexual Violence: Evidence of the Links. London: Everywoman.

Finkelhor, David. (1984). Child Sexual Abuse: New Theory and Research. New York: Free Press.

Frost, Richard; Stauffer, John. (1987, Spring). The effects of social class, gender, and personality on physiological responses to filmed violence. Journal of Communication, 37(2), 29-45.

Goldstein, Michael; Kant, Harold. (1973). Pornography and Sexual Deviance. Berkeley, CA: University of California Press.

Goodchilds, Jacqueline; Zellman, Gail. (1984). Sexual signalling and sexual aggression in adolescent relationships. In Neil Malamuth and Edward Donnerstein (Eds.), Pornography and Sexual Aggression (pp. 233-246). New York: Academic Press.

Hite, Shere. (1981). The Hite Report on Male Sexuality. New York: Alfred Knopf.

Jacobs, Karen. (1984). Patterns of violence: A feminist perspective on the regulations of pornography. The Harvard Women's Law Journal, 7, 5-55.

Itzin, Catharine (Ed.). (1992). Pornography: Women, Violence, and Civil Liberties. London and New York: Oxford University Press.

Koss, Mary; Dinero, Thomas. (1988). Predictors of sexual aggression among a national sample of male college students. In Vernon Quinsey and Robert Prentky (Eds.), Human Sexual Aggression: Current Perspectives, Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 528, 133-147.

Koss, Mary; Gidycz, Christine; Wisniewski, Nadine. (1987). The scope of rape: Incidence and prevalence of sexual aggression and victimization in a national sample of higher education students. Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology, 55, 162-170.

Longino, Helen. (1980). What is pornography? In Laura Lederer (Ed.), Take Back the Night: Women on Pornography (pp. 40-54). New York: William Morrow.

Lovelace, Linda. (1981). Ordeal. New York: Berkeley Books.

Lovelace, Linda. (1986). Out of Bondage. Secaucus, NJ: Lyle Stuart.

MacKinnon, Catharine. (1987). Feminism Unmodified: Discourses on Life and Law. Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press.

Malamuth, Neil. (1981a). Rape fantasies as a function of exposure to violent sexual stimuli. Archives of Sexual Behavior, 10, 33-47.

Malamuth, Neil. (1981b). Rape proclivity among males. Journal of Social Issues, 37(4), 138-157.

Malamuth, Neil. (1984). Aggression against women: Cultural and individual causes. In Neil Malamuth and Edward Donnerstein (Eds.), Pornography and Sexual Aggression (pp. 19-52). New York: Academic Press.

Malamuth, Neil. (1985). Unpublished transcript of testimony to the Attorney General's Commission on Pornography Hearings, Houston, TX, pp. 68-110.

Malamuth, Neil. (1986). Do sexually violent media indirectly contribute to anti-social behavior? Paper prepared for the Surgeon General's Workshop on Pornography and Public Health, Arlington, VA.

Malamuth, Neil; Check, James. (1981). The effects of mass media exposure on acceptance of violence against women: A field experiment. Journal of Research in Personality, 15, 436-446.

Malamuth, Neil; Check, James. (1985). The effects of aggressive pornography on beliefs in rape myths: Individual differences. Journal of Research in Personality, 19, 299-320.

Malamuth, Neil; Donnerstein, Edward (Eds.). (1984). Pornography and Sexual Aggression. New York: Academic Press.

Malamuth, Neil; Haber, Scott; Feshbach, Seymour. (1980). Testing hypotheses regarding rape: Exposure to sexual violence, sex differences, and the "normality" of rapists. Journal of Research in Personality, 14, 121-137.

Malamuth, Neil; Spinner, Barry. (1980). A longitudinal content analysis of sexual violence in the best-selling erotic magazines. Journal of Sex Research, 16(3), 226-237.

Maxwell, Kristin; Check, James. (1992, June). Adolescents' rape myth attitudes and acceptance of forced sexual intercourse. Paper presented at the Canadian Psychological Association Meetings, Quebec.

Mayall, Alice; Russell, Diana. (1993). Racism in pornography. In Diana Russell (Ed.), Making Violence Sexy: Feminist Views on Pornography, New York: Teachers College Press.

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[mongo]

92. Pick one Bloom

and I'll read it, if you'll read Pornucopia, by Lawerence O'Toole. It's what I'm reading now.

I've read or skimmed most of the Meese report -- although you know that Surgeon General Koop had written a piece for that which basically called the report bunk, and it was dropped from the report.

I've read many accounts of the studies done by Donnerstein, Zillmann and others, albeit from the other side. Donnerstein at least has gone back and refuted his earlier claims, and asserts that many have used his research to support claims he never made.

But I'm not adverse to reading the other side -- if you'll do me the coutesy of the same. Pick one and I'll try to find a used copy next time I go to the big city of Cowlumbus.

[Catherine Vincent]

70. Must you be so raw for my tender ears?!

Just kidding. I always wanted to say that!

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

74. Though I'm Sure You Mean Well, This Is Just Simply Silly And Sexist.

Abortion isn't a man vs woman issue no matter how passionately here some want to push that false ideal.

It is a perception issue, nothing more. I don't agree with those who have the perception that they should force their will on others (even though I actually don't agree with convenient abortions), but it is still their perception that is faulty, not their gender.

[Lars39]

75. Really?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

76. Yup.

[CTLawGuy]

86. oh, is that where i am supposed to be?

oops I was over here on the pro-choice side, but I guess, as a man, I have to be anti-choice.

See you guys Im off to FR.

:eyes:

[mongo]

89. The recent anti-abortion legistlation in SD

was introduced by a WOMAN DEMOCRAT!

How's that hold up in your world view?

[Lars39]

109. It used to be called "currying favor with those in charge".

She's a DINO.

[bloom]

79. A lot of people don't think women

can reasonably be called "sexist" any more than blacks in this country can be called "racist".

Once we're all equal maybe (I'm not optimistic enough to expect that in my lifetime).

Maybe you need a different term for women who challenge the patriarchy. Radical Feminist is what the women often call themselves.



And you might want to notice the men posting who expect young women to fight this fight by themselves.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

80. It Is Sexist, 100% Pure And Simple

And trying to tell me women should be treated equally (they should, everyone should) but be exempt from being called sexist when saying ignorant sexist statements is just absurdly hypocritical on its face.

Feel free to put whatever labels you want on sexist statements. I'll continue to call them simply sexist. :hi:

[bloom]

82. And I'll continue to think

that people who think that women (who challenge the patriarchy) are sexist are the ones who are fuckedup. :hi:

LOL LOL Maybe I'll even call them names. LOL LOL :rofl:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

83. No One Said You Can't Be Sexist If You Wanna Be.

But calling the abortion battle one mainly between men (EEEvillllllllll) and women is sexist any way you look at it and extremely misguided and false.

And since that is the issue I was responding to, it is laughable how you attempt to spin it in such way to represent being opposed to challenging patriarchy, which had nothing to do with the response whatsoever.

As far as the abortion debate goes (helloooooo that is what this was about), it is not one between men and women, it is one between those that believe there is a right to choose and those that believe abortion is wrong and that gives them the authority to force their will on others. No gender in that debate at all, just opinion, perception and desire to control others based on their own personal beliefs.

Saying it is men vs women is sexist all the way. :hi:


On Edit: I have no problem calling anyone a racist who is racist either. If they're racist, they're racist, period.

[mongo]

101. which fight Bloom?

The absolute right to control your own body? Right there with ya.

The right to equal pay for equal work? Same here.

The right to be free of (and I have to clarify this one) obvious and real sexual harrasement in the workplace. Again we agree.

The only thing we probably disagree about is porn, it's use, social implications, etc.

[sproutster]

81. While extreme, much has merit.

One in three women are raped. I am one of the three.

I would imagine if all of the women who have been raped admitted it here, it would shock the holy f*ck out of the readers.

IT IS COMMON.

You have date rape -- very very common
You have incest -- certainly not as common, but not as uncommon as you would like to believe
You have STEPFATHERS -- much more common, altho I hear there are some decent ones, I haven't met any via freinds with stepfathers.
Then you have stranger rape - Not sure where this falls on the scale.

Damn straight something radical needs to happen. This is BS aimed at controlling women. It is evil and vile.

All the gdamn talk is about the turn arounds, "oh i feel bad now" screw you -- YOU HAD A CHOICE.

I speak to you as a rape victim who had an abortion and I have no regrets.

Amen OP :) You are on the right track...

[stepnw1f]

96. I Think You Struck a Nerve... Excellent Job!

Now look upon the HYPOCRISY of male outrage... I love it.

Yes ladies, I am a male.;-)

[VelmaD]

100. Well, if you can see the hypocrisy...

and name it for what it is then you are one of the good guys. :)

[stepnw1f]

106. My Brother

Got sterilized so that his wife wouldn't have use birth control. When I asked him about it he said, "I'm married, happy, have two kids and that's enough for both of us. Besides, I don't want my wife taking something that may harm her in the long run."

This is exactly what I will be doing once my and the miss have a tiny stepnw1f or stepnw1falina. Besides... too many people in the world. I want a small family.

[VelmaD]

107. Your brother is a good guy too

That is an incredibly enlightened view on birth control...and one too few people really grasp. The pill is safer than it was...but there are still repercussions of putting extra hormones into your body for long periods of time.

Of course, if we lived in an enlightened society more research would have been done over the last 30 years and maybe we'd have more and better forms of birth control. *sigh*

[stepnw1f]

108. I Know..... All We Can Do is Lead by Example

and hope others follow.

[SidDithers]

102. 'Cause rape wouldn't happen if only men were sterilized...

I respectfully suggest that the "urge to dominate" has nothing to do with sex, and everything to do with power and control.

Sid

[ThomCat]

103. And of course, this wouldn't be unequally applies

so that poor men get sterilized while rich men don't.

No, of course not. :eyes:

[ismnotwasm]

105. Or we could bring back the Eunuch

Maybe for those men who don't pay child support. Or serial rapists. Why stop at sterilization? Women were sterilized without consent for a long time, in fact the topic is still brought up from time to time. Ovaries at one time were removed to treat "hysteria" Instant menopause. If we're going to jump in the way back machine-- men can come along for the ride.

[DrGonzoLives]

110. They won't

Pro-lifers are a very organized, efficient group for them to exploit for votes and money. Outlawing abortion kills that, as well as one of their most convenient wedge issues. They have had plenty of time to do it - there are enough votes, especially since there are surely enough pro-life Democrats to make up any GOP defections.

[VelmaD]

111. So we should just ignore the actual facts...

like the legislatures that are passing bills that outlaw abortion as we speak?

What. Ever.

There are PLENTY of other wedge issues for them to exploit. They get abortion and birth control is next. And there's always gay marriage. And prayer in school. And the 10 Commandments in the courthouse. And "Intelligent Design". And...

[DrGonzoLives]

117. So why haven't they yet?

Hmmmm? They've controlled Congress for how long? The White House for how long? They've had the chance, so why haven't they?

As to your snide reply, excuse me for joining the Chicken Little Chorus. I seem to have forgotten that's a prerequisite for posting in General Discussion.

[VelmaD]

118. Again...you ignore the facts of the last few days...

they are currently actively passing legislation in the states to outlaw abortion. It's not being Chicken Little at this point...they're actually doing it. Pay attention.

[AngryOldDem]

119. Exactly

It's open season on Roe vs. Wade since SCOTUS is now apparently changing for the worse. "Strike while the iron is hot" time.

As for me, I can't get out of my mind a page from my newspaper a few days ago. It had a story about South Dakota wishing to ban all abortions. Below that was a picture of a poor woman being hauled off in handcuffs. Her crime? She tried to give herself an abortion by shooting -- yes, shooting -- herself in the stomach. I'd like to think the story placement was intentional -- it made one hell of a statement about where we are headed if Roe gets overturned, via through SCOTUS or through 50 separate state rulings.

[sentelle]

116. an alternative

Men shall be *required* to obtain birth control. Any unwanted pregnancy caused by a man shall be punishable by death.